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| archels | cute http://www.ehsm.eu/lego_interferometer.jpg | 01:43 |
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| Evoril | greeting all | 05:13 |
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| Evoril | all afk? | 05:38 |
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| heath | wow, someone already did the work for me! | 07:27 |
| heath | https://github.com/lfex/py | 07:27 |
| heath | an implementation of python on top of erlang | 07:27 |
| heath | lfe is a lisp which compiles to erlang if anyone is confused | 07:27 |
| * heath deletes github.com/heath/pyex | 07:28 | |
| kanzure | hm | 07:29 |
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| heath | http://gethurricane.org/#python | 08:18 |
| heath | https://github.com/hurricane/driver-python | 08:18 |
| heath | https://github.com/hurricane/hurricane | 08:19 |
| heath | A scalable, extensible, distributed messaging system. | 08:19 |
| heath | http://neo900.org/news/xmas-update | 08:36 |
| heath | The truly open smartphone | 08:36 |
| heath | that cares about your privacy. | 08:36 |
| heath | "It [erlang] powers 40% of our world's telecommunications traffic." | 08:38 |
| heath | "The Erlang VM was never intended to excel at the sort of problems that Python has traditionally focused on... yet it provides the sort of infrastructure that the Python community has been agonizing over for more than a decade. " | 08:40 |
| heath | http://technicae.cogitat.io/2014/12/improved-python-support-in-erlanglfe.html | 08:45 |
| heath | http://blog.lfe.io/announcements/2014/12/27/1641-easy-python-from-lfeerlang/ | 08:46 |
| heath | " If you want to process huge files, do lots of string manipulation, or crunch tons of numbers, Erlang's not your bag, baby. Try Python or Julia." | 08:47 |
| heath | "But then, you may be thinking: I like supervision trees. I have long-running processes that I want to be managed per the rules I establish. I want to run lots of jobs in parallel on my 64-core box. I want to run jobs in parallel over the network on 64 of my 64-core boxes. Python's the right tool for the jobs, but I wish I could manage them with Erlang." | 08:48 |
| heath | this isn't what i thought it was | 08:49 |
| heath | i read it as a python implementation in erlang | 08:49 |
| heath | this may be the better solution anyway | 08:49 |
| heath | i guess most people in the hurricane project moved onto zeromq or nanomsg | 08:58 |
| heath | or just use erlang | 08:59 |
| superkuh | Open-BCI DIY-Neuroscience Maker-Art Mind-Hacking (Currently Live!) | 09:08 |
| superkuh | http://streaming.media.ccc.de/relive/6148/ | 09:08 |
| superkuh | +"" | 09:08 |
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| kanzure | just eeg stuff http://meta-mind.de/ | 09:19 |
| kanzure | "where they think consciousness is vibrating" oh come on | 09:20 |
| kanzure | oh well. so much for ccc. /me closes | 09:21 |
| archels | oh, I know that one. neurotubules! | 09:22 |
| kanzure | eeg is pretty disappointing | 09:22 |
| archels | you're preaching to the converted | 09:23 |
| archels | although there might be some utility yet in neurofeedback | 09:23 |
| archels | meta-mind.de's approach of rich visual direct feedback seems like a good approach in this regard | 09:24 |
| kanzure | what i am most troubled by is that i am going to have to suffer a lifetime of people thinking eeg is wonderful | 09:24 |
| kanzure | yes i agree that neurofeedback is a good idea | 09:24 |
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| kanzure | i don't think it's fair to complain to me that i don't have a list of tasks for random people to do | 09:29 |
| archels | can I pass on mine? | 09:31 |
| kanzure | hm? | 09:32 |
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| heath | http://turfjs.org/ | 09:47 |
| heath | linked from https://www.mapbox.com/blog/turf-gis-for-web-maps/ | 09:47 |
| kanzure | archels: i think you have good projects and you should definitely try to coerce or trick people into contributing | 09:49 |
| archels | yeah, I should spend some time writing them up | 09:55 |
| archels | I'm just now getting my feet wet on freelancer.com | 09:55 |
| kanzure | oh, why? | 09:56 |
| kanzure | oh you mean hiring? | 09:56 |
| archels | yup | 09:56 |
| archels | just for shits and giggles, at this point | 09:57 |
| kanzure | hmm that social octopus person does glassblowing http://www.stickycricket.com/atomic/ | 09:58 |
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| kanzure | "On January 26, 2015, the Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence (AAAI) will be holding a public open house as part of their annual research conference at the Hyatt Regency Austin, 208 Barton Springs Road." | 10:06 |
| kanzure | http://www.aaai.org/Conferences/AAAI/2015/aaai15schedule.pdf | 10:08 |
| kanzure | "Plan Execution Monitoring through Detection of Unmet Expectations about Action Outcomes" | 10:14 |
| archels | the AAAI is very uninteresting | 10:15 |
| archels | I was a member for 2 years before I gave up | 10:15 |
| kanzure | "Learning Articulated Motions from Visual Demonstration" | 10:19 |
| kanzure | "Robot Learning Manipulation Action Plans by “Watching” Unconstrained Videos from the World Wide Web" | 10:19 |
| kanzure | i can see why... this list of work does not seem like the sort of thing you want in an ai conference. | 10:22 |
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| Evoril | ah jeshusssss | 11:02 |
| Evoril | havent slept in 2 days | 11:02 |
| Evoril | but i still have work to do | 11:02 |
| Evoril | k huess ill just get some shuteye instead | 11:03 |
| heath | archels: sites like freelancer haven't given any leads | 11:14 |
| heath | to me at least | 11:14 |
| heath | i don't think i'm the only one though | 11:14 |
| kanzure | wrong way, he was talking about hiring other people | 11:14 |
| heath | i see | 11:19 |
| heath | phew, kokuro.com is available, for only 688USD | 11:19 |
| heath | archels: i'll be curious to know how that works for you | 11:20 |
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| kragen | most gTLD domains of six letters or more are available | 11:33 |
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| kanzure | http://www.nature.com/news/scientific-method-defend-the-integrity-of-physics-1.16535 | 11:44 |
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| kanzure | haha this is their solution? "Such a case must be made in formal philosophical terms. A conference should be convened next year to take the first steps. People from both sides of the testability debate must be involved." | 11:47 |
| kanzure | that's the most silly solution ever | 11:47 |
| poppingtonic | .wik hockeytalk | 12:00 |
| yoleaux | "This is a list of common terms used in ice hockey along with explanations of their meanings." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_ice_hockey_terms | 12:00 |
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| kanzure | http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2014/12/27/synapse-memory-doctrine-threatened/ | 12:11 |
| kanzure | "Could a nonsynaptic storage mechanism based on nuclear changes mediate the maintenance of associative memories, particularly those induced in complex neural circuits in the mammalian brain, where a given neuron may have 1,000s or 10,000s of synaptic partners? An obvious difficulty confronting any hypothetical nuclear storage mechanism in the mammalian brain is how the appropriate number of connections can be maintained in a ... | 12:11 |
| kanzure | ... synapse-specific manner after learning has occurred." | 12:11 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.pnas.org/content/110/30/12456.full | 12:14 |
| yoleaux | Very long-term memories may be stored in the pattern of holes in the perineuronal net | 12:14 |
| kanzure | "A hypothesis and the experiments to test it propose that very long-term memories, such as fear conditioning, are stored as the pattern of holes in the perineuronal net (PNN), a specialized ECM that envelops mature neurons and restricts synapse formation. The 3D intertwining of PNN and synapses would be imaged by serial-section EM. Lifetimes of PNN vs. intrasynaptic components would be compared with pulse-chase 15N labeling in mice and ... | 12:14 |
| kanzure | ... 14C content in human cadaver brains. Genetically encoded indicators and antineoepitope antibodies should improve spatial and temporal resolution of the in vivo activity of proteases that locally erode PNN. Further techniques suggested include genetic KOs, better pharmacological inhibitors, and a genetically encoded snapshot reporter, which will capture the pattern of activity throughout a large ensemble of neurons at a time precisely ... | 12:14 |
| kanzure | ... defined by the triggering illumination, drive expression of effector genes to mark those cells, and allow selective excitation, inhibition, or ablation to test their functional importance. The snapshot reporter should enable more precise inhibition or potentiation of PNN erosion to compare with behavioral consequences. Finally, biosynthesis of PNN components and proteases would be imaged." | 12:15 |
| kanzure | "The role of brain extracellular proteins in neuroplasticity and learning" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4028066 | 12:15 |
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| kanzure | hmm this is cited by boyden | 12:25 |
| kanzure | and marblestone | 12:25 |
| kanzure | hmm and marblestone and boyden have coauthored. maybe i should pay attention to marblestone. | 12:25 |
| kanzure | in particular i have been meaning to read his brain interfaces paper http://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/12274513/Marblestone_gsas.harvard_0084L_11381.pdf?sequence=1 | 12:26 |
| kanzure | "fluorescent in situ sequencing in the context of intact, fixed tissue slices" well alright | 12:30 |
| kanzure | here is someone who mentions microcephay and savants as an argument against neural tissue volume as an explanation of cognitive ability http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.2961.pdf | 12:33 |
| kanzure | page 4 figure 1 is pretty cool | 12:35 |
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| kanzure | whole brain emulation projects should be working with microcephaly brains | 12:38 |
| kanzure | maybe the ventricles store data | 12:48 |
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| kanzure | "CSF is produced at a rate of 500 ml/day ... Since the subarachnoid space around the brain and spinal cord can contain only 135 to 150 ml, large amounts are drained primarily into the blood through arachnoid granulations in the superior sagittal sinus. Thus the CSF turns over about 3.7 times a day." nope | 12:51 |
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| juri_ | http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6417_-_en_-_saal_g_-_201412271245_-_3d_casting_aluminum_-_julia_longtin.html#video | 13:15 |
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| kanzure | oh right, that may have been a gradual change over a lifetime, and perhaps the brain just functionally reorganized | 13:20 |
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| kanzure | "Yet they are found to have only 5% the normal volume of cerebral tissue (Lewin, 1980). While initially disbelieved, there are now two further reports of relatively normal individuals with such minute brain tissue volumes. While, as noted by Makorek (2012) and Forsdyke (2014, 2015), these cases stretch the credibility of brain ‘plasticity’ explanations (the 5% able to become functionally close to 100%), or ‘redundancy’ ... | 13:39 |
| kanzure | ... explanations (we normally use 5% and the remaining 95% is superfluous), many neuroscientists still disbelieve. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and neurones are known to be remarkably stress-resistant (Ding et al., 2001). But there are growing indications that the hallowed foundations of modern neuroscience are not as stable as once supposed (Firestein, 2012; Satel and Lilienfeld, 2013)." | 13:40 |
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| fenn | kanzure: heh meta-mind.de used to live at langton; i'm currently using a computer i bought from him, still has a bunch of files on the windows partition | 13:47 |
| fenn | the pictures on the site are at langton or noisebridge | 13:47 |
| fenn | we had a UFO cult next door that he would gather test subjects from | 13:52 |
| kanzure | do you have their prospectus? | 13:53 |
| fenn | i'm not sure what that means in this context | 13:53 |
| kanzure | all good cults have prospectuses | 13:54 |
| kanzure | basically they are pamphlets you hand out to prospective members | 13:54 |
| kanzure | explaining what your cult is about and the membership benefits | 13:54 |
| fenn | meta-mind's goal was to break free of rigid pre-programmed responses to life in general, he regarded himself as a chaos magician and the EEG was a way to introspect his responses | 13:54 |
| kanzure | noimean ufocult | 13:55 |
| fenn | the cult was named "sera phi" and i could never get a clear statement of beliefs out of anyone; i believe they smoked a lot of DMT and were concerned about the 2012 thing | 13:56 |
| fenn | they had a stargate | 13:56 |
| kanzure | you mean a ct scanner? | 13:57 |
| fenn | the charismatic leader was an audio tech and thought you could heal people with sound waves; he had this bed you lay on with subwoofers playing standing acoustic waves | 13:58 |
| fenn | not a CT scanner, it was a prop really | 13:58 |
| kanzure | mechanical waves can probably do things to the body but my guess is that his particular waves were not targeted or doing anything interesting | 13:59 |
| fenn | it was more like guided meditation | 13:59 |
| fenn | considering the overlap in areas of interest you'd expect more interaction between us neighboring houses, but the paradigm gap was too large | 14:00 |
| fenn | so meta-mind was sort of our ambassador | 14:01 |
| fenn | .wik noimean | 14:02 |
| yoleaux | "Hanoi (/hæˈnɔːɪ/ listen) is the capital of Vietnam and the country's second largest city. Its population in 2009 was estimated at 2.6 million for urban districts, 6.5 million for the metropolitan jurisdiction. From 1010 until 1802, it was the most important political centre of Vietnam." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanoi | 14:02 |
| fenn | derp | 14:02 |
| fenn | it's too bad calxia never got off the ground, i would have joined | 14:03 |
| fenn | most cults are just "gimme money and sex" tied into weird religious beliefs, and they never actually do anything worthwhile | 14:03 |
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| fenn | sometimes i wonder if people can hear what they sound like to others | 14:08 |
| fenn | .tw https://twitter.com/SeraPhiCenter/status/4031990237 | 14:08 |
| yoleaux | Join me LIVE NOW for FREE Soul Alignment Readings with Mary MacNab on #BlogTalkRadio at http://tobtr.com/s/658975 or call (646) 929-0531 (@SeraPhiCenter) | 14:08 |
| fenn | hehe http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m62sluL1az1rt28efo1_400.gif | 14:10 |
| kanzure | ah yes the paradigm clash between an inexplicable love for micropipettes and er... | 14:15 |
| kanzure | also: maybe microcephaly is a brain imaging bug | 14:16 |
| kanzure | when's the last time you saw a formaldehyde-preserved microcephaly brain | 14:16 |
| fenn | never | 14:16 |
| kanzure | ah... http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qZoTjVIcOSw/Uh5MLeTcSgI/AAAAAAABIuo/LuRZSF4lDBw/s400/Brain+with+microcephaly.gif | 14:17 |
| * kanzure looks for a preserved hydrocephalete | 14:18 | |
| kanzure | http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/libraries/courses/neuroslides/lab5a/slide168.cfm | 14:19 |
| kanzure | "Hydrocephalus: This specimen is a coronal section through a hydrocephalic brain. There is massive symmetric ventriculomegaly with marked narrowing of white matter and thinning of the corpus callosum. Although convolutions are flattened, the cortex is usually not destroyed; most of the tissue loss is white matter loss." | 14:19 |
| kanzure | ( http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/libraries/courses/neuroslides/lab5a/images/5-168.png ) | 14:20 |
| fenn | certainly looks smaller | 14:21 |
| kanzure | damn. | 14:21 |
| fenn | the first one at least | 14:21 |
| kanzure | maybe it's both an imaging artifact and a real thing | 14:24 |
| fenn | why do you think it's an artifact at all? | 14:24 |
| kanzure | because evidence of normal cognitive ability in (few) hydrocephalites really screws up attempts at reasoning about human cognition | 14:25 |
| kanzure | although, i am not sure the "neural reorgnaization over long periods of time" hypothesis should be ruled out | 14:26 |
| kanzure | the author above did so, citing .. "While, as noted by Makorek (2012) and Forsdyke (2014, 2015), these cases stretch the credibility of brain ‘plasticity’ explanations (the 5% able to become functionally close to 100%)" | 14:26 |
| fenn | so "it's all in your head" | 14:28 |
| kanzure | hm? | 14:28 |
| fenn | bad pun, nm | 14:29 |
| kanzure | oh actually, the brain plasticity explanation isn't too stretched, | 14:29 |
| kanzure | how much brain matter dies during strokes? | 14:29 |
| kanzure | go find someone plagued with strokes | 14:29 |
| fenn | i'm not sure plasticity is the right word, because hydrocephalus is from birth | 14:29 |
| kanzure | exclusively? | 14:30 |
| * fenn shrugs | 14:30 | |
| kanzure | "late onset leaky brain syndrome" | 14:30 |
| kanzure | no results | 14:30 |
| fenn | how do they diagnose hydrocephalus anyway | 14:31 |
| fenn | is it ultrasound prenatal exam? | 14:31 |
| kanzure | headaches and vomiting | 14:31 |
| kanzure | oh, i think so | 14:31 |
| kanzure | probably something like cranial size | 14:31 |
| fenn | oh, right | 14:31 |
| fenn | so your issue was with "evidence of normal cognitive ability" but it turns out that they have roughly equivalent brain volume, excluding the water filled areas | 14:32 |
| kanzure | wait, they have equivalent brain volume? | 14:33 |
| fenn | yeah, since the skull is larger too | 14:33 |
| kanzure | in the cases described, there was no deformity | 14:33 |
| fenn | also you switched suddenly from talking about microcephaly to hydrocephaly | 14:33 |
| kanzure | yes i am very confused | 14:33 |
| fenn | i think they are different things entirely | 14:34 |
| fenn | microcephaly has something to do with microcephalin, yes? whereas hydrocephaly is caused by excess fluid pressure | 14:34 |
| kanzure | consider page 3 http://arxiv.org/pdf/1311.2961.pdf the giant excerpt in the middle | 14:34 |
| fenn | ohnoes i am out of screens | 14:35 |
| fenn | "with savants and microcephalics, the volume of neural tissue is determined by cranial capacity. However, with hydrocephalics the volume is largely determined by the size of fluid-filled ventricles." | 14:36 |
| kanzure | ah | 14:37 |
| kanzure | "cranial capacity" is a silly term | 14:37 |
| fenn | "in [10%] of cases, ventricular fluid occupied 95% of cranial capacity, yet half of this group had IQs above average. among these was a student with IQ 126 who had a first class honours degree in mathematics and was socially normal. ... instead of the normal 4.5cm thickness ... there was just a thin layer of mantle measuring a millimeter or so." | 14:39 |
| fenn | i find it interesting that he/she was talented in mathematics | 14:39 |
| kanzure | preoccupation with numbers :p | 14:40 |
| fenn | maybe decreased white matter volume makes you better at math :P | 14:40 |
| kanzure | they should have stated which subfield | 14:40 |
| fenn | we'll never know | 14:41 |
| fenn | ok so this is definitely not normal brain volume, he estimates brain mass somewhere around 50-150g | 14:41 |
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| kanzure | maybe nick bostrom should be citing this as evidence for simulated universe hypothesis stuff | 14:43 |
| fenn | nah | 14:44 |
| fenn | it's worth noting they didnt measure memory capacity (cf) but only IQ | 14:44 |
| fenn | er, gc | 14:45 |
| kanzure | i don't think there's enough people integrating enough evidence in science in general | 14:47 |
| kanzure | hard enough to keep track of all the piles of evidence | 14:47 |
| fenn | "in 1934 librarian Paul Otlet envisioned a 'mechanical collective brain' to which individuals would connect through 'electric telescopes' that would seem to equate with today's personal computers" | 14:48 |
| kanzure | also since nobody counted number of neurons, they might just be smaller-than-normal neurons but otherwise in tact | 14:48 |
| kanzure | librarians are just a myth | 14:49 |
| * fenn reconnoiters with his electric otletoscope | 14:49 | |
| fenn | .gc otletoscope | 14:49 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.gc) crashed. | 14:49 |
| kanzure | interesting how he would propose a telescope but not an electronic book | 14:49 |
| fenn | .gc anything at all | 14:49 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.gc) crashed. | 14:50 |
| fenn | bah | 14:50 |
| kanzure | even an electronic typewriter would make more sense | 14:50 |
| kanzure | in fact, there was already recordings on drums and barrels | 14:50 |
| kanzure | and wasn't microfiche around back then? | 14:50 |
| kanzure | was tape storage in use? | 14:51 |
| fenn | no | 14:51 |
| fenn | and no | 14:51 |
| kanzure | punch-card-tape-storage wasn't around? | 14:51 |
| fenn | "the book on the book" http://youtu.be/hSyfZkVgasI | 14:51 |
| kanzure | .title | 14:52 |
| yoleaux | Paul Otlet, visioning a web in 1934 - YouTube | 14:52 |
| kanzure | heh | 14:52 |
| kanzure | so remote long-distance projection | 14:53 |
| fenn | the radiated library | 14:53 |
| fenn | the most powerful works for the diffusion of human thought! muwahahahaha | 14:53 |
| kanzure | "The relationship between ventricular dilatation, neuropathological and neurobehavioural changes in hydrocephalic rats" | 14:54 |
| kanzure | meh only cognitive impairments | 14:55 |
| kanzure | (although they do acknowledge the conflicting results reported with human hydrocephalics) | 14:56 |
| kanzure | hehe google scholar incorrectly determined the title of another paper, "Financial Disclosure: None reported." | 14:57 |
| kanzure | "We're broke, yo" | 14:57 |
| fenn | "When the Nazis came, they cleared out the contents of the Palais Mondial, destroying over 70 tons worth of material, and making room for an exhibition of Third Reich art. Otlet’s productive career effectively came to an end, and he died a few years later in 1944." | 15:00 |
| fenn | huh never heard of this guy | 15:02 |
| fenn | .wik robert cailliau | 15:02 |
| yoleaux | "Robert Cailliau (born 26 January 1947) is a Belgian informatics engineer and computer scientist. Cailliau helped Tim Berners-Lee develop the World Wide Web." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cailliau | 15:02 |
| fenn | Robert Cailliau on the WWW Proposal: "How It Really Happened." https://web.archive.org/web/20110106041256/http://www.computer.org/portal/web/computingnow/ic-cailliau | 15:06 |
| kanzure | "For example, whereas in rats it is possible to identify some 4-6 visual areas, we can identify 12-17 in cats, 25 in macaques and maybe more than 50 in humans (Bourgeois 1997)." | 15:07 |
| kanzure | "The manatee, for example, a marine mammal with a body size comparable to that of a dolphin and a brain volume comparable to that of a chimpanzee, has a completely lissencephalic neocortex." (smooth, non-gyrated) | 15:08 |
| fenn | the manatee, nature's most improbable mammal | 15:09 |
| kanzure | .title http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11692-012-9201-8 | 15:09 |
| yoleaux | On the Possible Shapes of the Brain - Springer | 15:09 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/On%20the%20possible%20shapes%20of%20the%20brain.pdf | 15:10 |
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| fenn | jupiter brains, matrioshka brains, photonic brains, relativistic brains | 15:10 |
| fenn | oh don't forget exotic and degenerate matter | 15:11 |
| fenn | "I was also working with the control system of the Proton Synchrotron — the smallest, but most complex, of our particle accelerators — and there in the 1970s we had set up a system of computers that talked to each other. Programs actually sent themselves over the network, and I'd written a byte code interpreter for mobile code. Petrie: So in the early '70s, you had networking, mobile code, | 15:20 |
| fenn | and byte interpreters. You had the equivalent of Java and the Internet. | 15:20 |
| fenn | In a sense, yes, and in fact we had graphical user interfaces. We had independent control consoles, and the whole lot, but it's all gone now. I'm pretty certain the Java people don't know. I just hope we haven't thrown away all the hardware. The whole thing was done on Norsk Data computers. They were a small Norwegian company — the last independent computer company in Europe, I think — and | 15:20 |
| fenn | after that nothing existed except from the US, and of course from the US-perspective, if it isn't done in the US it doesn't exist in computing, right?" | 15:20 |
| kanzure | http://brainfolding.sourceforge.net/ morphogenetic brain folding model | 15:22 |
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| kanzure | "A command line tool to compute the local degree of folding from pial surface reconstructions. " | 15:22 |
| kanzure | "But large brains are not always gyrencephalic and small brains are not always lissencephalic. As we saw previously, the manatee brain (Fig. 1) is a well-known example of the former case. Interestingly, the manatee cortex is also particularly thick: 4 mm on average, whereas the human cortex is 2.5 mm thick on average. This should make the manatee brain especially difficult to bend. Our simulations showed indeed that the width of ... | 15:24 |
| kanzure | ... folds—their wavelength—depends directly on cortical thickness, and that a thick cortex will require more growth than a thin cortex to fold (Fig. 4d)." | 15:24 |
| poppingtonic | .wik ellsberg paradox | 15:25 |
| yoleaux | "The Ellsberg paradox is a paradox in decision theory in which people's choices violate the postulates of subjective expected utility. It is generally taken to be evidence for ambiguity aversion. The paradox was popularized by Daniel Ellsberg, although a version of it was noted considerably earlier by John Maynard Keynes." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellsberg_paradox | 15:25 |
| cluckj | sounds like advanced phrenology | 15:25 |
| fenn | it is advanced phrenology | 15:26 |
| cluckj | oh | 15:27 |
| fenn | we have better measuring tools these days than a bag of beans | 15:27 |
| poppingtonic | data-driven phrenology | 15:27 |
| cluckj | evidence-based phrenology | 15:27 |
| fenn | why is the "ellsberg paradox" considered a paradox at all? | 15:29 |
| fenn | it's just a continuation of risk aversion | 15:29 |
| poppingtonic | the assumption (which is, of course totally spurious) is that humans follow the laws of normative decision theories. | 15:30 |
| FourFire | " thought you could heal people with sound waves; he had this bed you lay on with subwoofers playing standing acoustic waves" hey, I had that cult idea once! | 15:31 |
| FourFire | what sort of healing was he claiming? | 15:31 |
| FourFire | General, or just infectious diseases? | 15:32 |
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| fenn | FourFire: this is all i know: "Anandá took his knowledge of the meta-physical applications of ancient sacred tonal resonant frequency and vibration and founded Sera Soma, a sound healing wellness center. Including nutrition and health consultations, Sera Soma became a center for combining nutrition and sound therapy modalities. | 15:32 |
| fenn | In 2004, Anandá formed Sera Phi providing scientifically advanced tools to facilitate vibro-acoustic and electro-frequency therapies" | 15:32 |
| FourFire | "sometimes i wonder if people can hear what they sound like to others" imperfectly, if the other end isn't using a headphones + mic | 15:33 |
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| cluckj | lol | 15:34 |
| fenn | wtf he had 28GB of ram and 4TB of raid | 15:37 |
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| kanzure | cluckj: is the content of the middle paragraph on page 3 (about popper) an accurate summary http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.7439v2.pdf | 15:39 |
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| heath | .title http://www.theonion.com/articles/laidback-company-allows-employees-to-work-from-hom,37358/ | 15:41 |
| yoleaux | Laid-Back Company Allows Employees To Work From Home After 6 P.M. | The Onion - America's Finest News Source | 15:41 |
| cluckj | yes | 15:41 |
| cluckj | it seems like a drive-by citation though | 15:43 |
| kanzure | certainly is | 15:43 |
| fenn | "cancer cells sound different from normal cells. We hope that in the future doctors will be able to “hear” these changes, thus enabling them to diagnose illnesses at the onset." | 15:44 |
| fenn | hum. well maybe they do have a different impedance spectrum, who knows | 15:44 |
| kanzure | what is the sound of one flagellum flagellating? | 15:45 |
| cluckj | fap fap fap | 15:45 |
| fenn | FourFire: here's some more if you still care... my eyes glazed over about halfway down http://web.archive.org/web/20111029090714/http://seraphi.org/sera-lab/research.html | 15:46 |
| kanzure | animation of flagellum growth (no sound, though) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLTFiekwFy8 | 15:47 |
| fenn | "Neurons may be activated by electrical fields potentials of low intensity and fast rise time applied directly to the skin, at a power level that cannont be felt. The skin may therefore become a receptor for all manor of information interface, except that the information needs to be encoded as if it were received by a sensory cell. Once the properly encoded pulse trains are applied to the neural | 15:47 |
| fenn | system through electrical excitation of skin, the nerves and brain are oblivious to the source of the information, and receive it as yet another perceptive sensation." | 15:47 |
| fenn | this is the flanagan neurophone idea, which unfortunately turned out to be ultrasonic bone conduction hearing | 15:47 |
| kanzure | surely not all mechanoreception in skin is just bone conduction? | 15:48 |
| cluckj | alright I can't figure out what that paper is trying to say, but the popper reference is okay | 15:48 |
| kanzure | got it | 15:48 |
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| cluckj | eh | 15:50 |
| fenn | the flagellum is really pretty incredible | 15:51 |
| fenn | A+ would grow again | 15:51 |
| cluckj | the author seems to have stopped reading philosophy of science at popper | 15:51 |
| kanzure | "It has been observed that patients with autism spectrum disorders have, on average, a larger brain volume and a higher incidence of macrocephaly (20 %) compared with control populations (4 %). .. non-affected mothers and fathers of ASD patients also exhibit a high incience of macrocephaly, similar to that of their affected offspring (Lainhart et al. 2006), suggesting that the large brain volume may not be an effect of the pathology, but ... | 15:52 |
| kanzure | ... an inherited risk factor." | 15:52 |
| kanzure | cluckj: hehe, that's what i was worried about. often i forget everything after popper too.... | 15:52 |
| cluckj | which is fine I guess since science hasn't changed in 50 years | 15:52 |
| fenn | that's not quite true | 15:52 |
| kanzure | *incidence | 15:52 |
| fenn | we have a lot more multivariate regression now | 15:52 |
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| fenn | also people are better at double blinding and paying attention to statistics in general | 15:53 |
| cluckj | I was being sarcastic :P | 15:53 |
| fenn | SNARK MARKS ARE MANDATORY!!! | 15:53 |
| cluckj | AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH | 15:53 |
| kanzure | other than basic falsifiability and null hypothesis stuff, and not having fucked up epistemology, what else is super important to have on the list? | 15:53 |
| fenn | extreme usage of parenthetical phrases, hedging, weasel words, and passive tense is generally recommended | 15:54 |
| kanzure | hieroglyphics | 15:54 |
| fenn | !!!~ | 15:54 |
| cluckj | popper was looking at extremely organized and government-run science immediately following WWII | 15:54 |
| fenn | the best kind of science | 15:55 |
| fenn | SCIENCE | 15:55 |
| cluckj | lol | 15:56 |
| cluckj | I think I already said to put Ian Hacking on your list | 15:56 |
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| fenn | there's this trend to say that "oh the 1950s only made so much cool shit because it was low hanging fruit" | 15:56 |
| fenn | but then the 1970s continued that trend | 15:57 |
| fenn | er, the trend of discovering stuff | 15:58 |
| fenn | and making cool shit | 15:58 |
| cluckj | that's a bit naive | 15:58 |
| cluckj | anyway, Lakatos is a better version of Popper than Popper is | 16:00 |
| kanzure | ah? | 16:01 |
| kanzure | also these books sound boring as hell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Hacking#Articles although the articles look maybe okay | 16:01 |
| kanzure | .wik imre lakatos | 16:02 |
| yoleaux | "Imre Lakatos (Hungarian: Lakatos Imre [ˈlɒkɒtoʃ ˈimrɛ]; November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) was a Hungarian philosopher of mathematics and science, known for his thesis of the fallibility of mathematics and its 'methodology of proofs and refutations' in its pre-axiomatic stages of development, and also for introducing the concept of the ' …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos | 16:02 |
| cluckj | I think there's an article version of one of his books | 16:02 |
| kanzure | .wik research program | 16:02 |
| yoleaux | "A research program (UK: research programme) is a professional network of scientists conducting basic research." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_program | 16:02 |
| cluckj | which is far superior to the book itself unless you really dig particle physics | 16:02 |
| kanzure | what? "Lakatos found falsificationism impractical and often not practiced, and found normal science—where a paradigm of science, mimicking an exemplar, extinguishes differing perspectives—more monopolistic than actual." | 16:02 |
| fenn | yeah that sounds about right | 16:03 |
| kanzure | "Lakatos found multiple research programmes to coexist" is the "started" version of "found" | 16:03 |
| kanzure | was he describing shit or trying to determine good approaches to thinking | 16:03 |
| kanzure | this is a very weird article | 16:03 |
| cluckj | both | 16:04 |
| fenn | Lakatos later moved to silicon valley and defined numerous code smells and the twelve factor app paradigm. | 16:05 |
| cluckj | he saw things in the real world and tried to philosophically resolve them into popper's work | 16:05 |
| cluckj | oh I was thinking about andrew pickering on the article | 16:06 |
| cluckj | I don't think there's an article version of The Social Construction of What? | 16:06 |
| kanzure | i must be misunderstanding, because half of this sounds like trying to dictate how human labor in science should be allocated, while the other half is about a theory of science and thinking and not being wrong | 16:08 |
| kanzure | and i have no idea why this is intermixed | 16:08 |
| cluckj | bad wiki authors? | 16:09 |
| kanzure | "Lakatos saw himself as merely extending Popper's ideas, which changed over time and were interpreted by many in conflicting ways. He contrasted Popper, the "naive falsificationist" who demanded unconditional rejection of any theory in the face of any anomaly (an interpretation Lakatos saw as erroneous but that he nevertheless referred to often); Popper1, the more nuanced and conservatively interpreted philosopher; and Popper2, the ... | 16:10 |
| kanzure | ... "sophisticated methodological falsificationist" that Lakatos claims is the logical extension of the correctly interpreted ideas of Popper1 (and who is therefore essentially Lakatos himself). It is, therefore, very difficult to determine which ideas and arguments concerning the research programme should be credited to whom" | 16:10 |
| fenn | it could be refactored, but often the original thinking is deeply mixed and it's hard to separate should vs is | 16:10 |
| fenn | i mean it takes work to refactor the article, vs just summarizing some book | 16:10 |
| cluckj | ^ | 16:11 |
| fenn | i am just babbling though; i haven't read either popper or lakatos | 16:11 |
| kanzure | i find it strange how the article on null hypotheses does not even mention popper | 16:13 |
| kanzure | oh, it does mention falsifiability by reference though | 16:14 |
| kanzure | so there's that | 16:14 |
| fenn | 'Popper discusses this in his essay, “Evolutionary Epistemology”, in which he argues that all knowledge develops from an evolutionary process of variation and selection. In its application to science, he termed this view “falsificationism”, the idea that scientific knowledge grows by conjecture and refutation, not by bits of observational evidence somehow congealing into theories and | 16:15 |
| fenn | gradually solidifying into absolute truth.' | 16:15 |
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| fenn | null hypothesis.. what is that again? | 16:15 |
| kanzure | .wik null hypothesis | 16:15 |
| yoleaux | "In statistical inference on observational data, the null hypothesis refers to a general statement or default position that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis | 16:15 |
| kanzure | "Rejecting or disproving the null hypothesis—and thus concluding that there are grounds for believing that there is a relationship between two phenomena (e.g. that a potential treatment has a measurable effect)—is a central task in the modern practice of science, and gives a precise sense in which a claim is capable of being proven false." | 16:16 |
| kanzure | there needs to be a meta null hypothesis,though | 16:16 |
| kanzure | these things should be mentioned right after occam's razor (or before) | 16:17 |
| kanzure | but the razor is more popular for some reason | 16:17 |
| fenn | because it's useful for scoring debate points | 16:18 |
| fenn | "your theory sucks because occam's razor" sounds better than "have you considered the null hypothesis?" | 16:18 |
| kanzure | lousy name anyway | 16:18 |
| fenn | i agree | 16:19 |
| cluckj | lol | 16:19 |
| cluckj | occam's razor is also pretty poorly understood | 16:20 |
| fenn | it's actually difficult to even think about null hypotheses; we usually substitute one explanation for another, not just *nothing* | 16:20 |
| fenn | consider "the smelly green stuff on the sidewalk is not from horses shitting" | 16:21 |
| fenn | immediately you start thinking of other specific processes that could have caused the smelly green stuff | 16:22 |
| kanzure | 23:41 < jrayhawk> if the null hypothesis is a stupid thing nobody cares about, then the hypothesis will also be a stupid thing nobody cares about | 16:23 |
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| kanzure | 00:26 < jrayhawk> people working from sane null hypotheses jump ahead of the science by decades | 16:24 |
| fenn | i think jrayhawk's "null hypothesis" was not in fact null; he was saying that carbohydrates (or whatever) cause inflammation and general pathology | 16:25 |
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| fenn | < jrayhawk_> The formation of a good working null hypothesis for how sugar is supposed to work necessarily involves phenolics. | 16:26 |
| fenn | this sentence doesn't make sense to me | 16:27 |
| kanzure | wrong cause, misattribution, unbalanced conservation of energy/matter/something, relationships where none exist, confounding factors, hidden variables, what are the other obvious errors? | 16:27 |
| fenn | i mean i think i get what he's trying to say, but it doesn't match my understanding of "null hypothesis" | 16:27 |
| fenn | spurious correlation | 16:28 |
| kanzure | "statements that are correct but for the wrong reasons" i don't know the name of this error | 16:29 |
| kanzure | oh and then there's a set of measurement-related errors... like measuring the wrong things, posulating unmeasurable nonsense, er.. | 16:30 |
| fenn | positive result publication bias, (jonah lehrer effect) | 16:30 |
| fenn | .wik decline effect | 16:30 |
| yoleaux | "The decline effect may occur when scientific claims receive decreasing support over time. The term was first described by parapsychologist Joseph Banks Rhine in the 1930s to describe the disappearing of extrasensory perception (ESP) of psychic experiments conducted by Rhine over the course of study or time. In its more general term, …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_effect | 16:30 |
| fenn | trying to list all the failure modes of science go on forever | 16:31 |
| kanzure | ah yes and the closely related "tower of insufferable bullshit loosely held together" ("sure! i can replicate those results, as long as i am allowed to use the original authors and the original lab and their equipment. also please provide me with a time machine.") | 16:31 |
| fenn | will go on* | 16:31 |
| kanzure | i think it's cute how nate looks at these papers and estimates no engineering setbacks a tall | 16:32 |
| kanzure | *at all | 16:32 |
| fenn | "scientists who are exploring another option: that the act of observing the universe changes the universe, and that repeated measurement might actually be rendering earlier results invalid. In other words, antipsychotic drugs did work originally, but the more we measured their effectiveness, the more the laws governing those drugs changed so they ceased to be effective." | 16:33 |
| kanzure | i need to resolve that | 16:33 |
| fenn | bwahaha | 16:33 |
| kanzure | that's like a double greg egan effect or something | 16:33 |
| fenn | the delusional hypothesis | 16:33 |
| fenn | not greg egan, more like philip dick | 16:34 |
| kanzure | greg egan was the one that had the territories of math getting eaten | 16:34 |
| kanzure | so valid science being destroyed/used up sounds like a greg egan thing to me | 16:34 |
| fenn | but it was not repeatable math in the first place | 16:35 |
| cluckj | hah | 16:35 |
| fenn | thus it's "not even wrong" | 16:35 |
| cluckj | I'd call it changes in the methods used to rate their effectiveness | 16:35 |
| cluckj | like, cancer rates increase as doctors get better at diagnosing cancer | 16:36 |
| kanzure | oh sure, but the alternative is silly and fun to consider | 16:36 |
| fenn | the silly alternative that we are getting more cancer~ | 16:36 |
| cluckj | those aren't mutually exclusive | 16:37 |
| fenn | kanzure the blockchain does something like this, where "truth" changes depending on when and where you look at it | 16:37 |
| cluckj | s/blockchain/reality | 16:41 |
| fenn | we have better models for the blockchain | 16:41 |
| cluckj | true | 16:41 |
| fenn | what reality does is still up for debate | 16:41 |
| kanzure | i wonder if you could dissolve a brain without losing synaptic details (like receptor distribution) | 16:43 |
| fenn | haha "On this day long ago, a child was born who, by age 30, would transform the world. Happy Birthday Isaac Newton b. Dec 25, 1642" | 16:44 |
| kanzure | "The number of neurons per unit cerebral cortex surface is constant, 10^5 neurons/(mm^2). This was first estimated by Bok [18], and confirmed using cel counts [19, 20]. In both latter studies, cell counts (neurons and glia cells) were performed for five regions on the cerebral cortex that differ strongly in thickness and composition of the layers. Moreover, these samples were taken from four mammals of very different brain size (mouse, ... | 16:48 |
| kanzure | ... rat, cat, monkey). Both studies found not only the same number of 10^5 neurons per mm^2 for the different samples of each species, but also for each of the four species tested. The average cortical surface per neuron is thus k = 10^-5 mm^2, irrespective of the cerebral size and the location of the cortical surface." | 16:48 |
| kanzure | from http://arxiv.org/pdf/1308.1252.pdf | 16:48 |
| kanzure | hmm there is a biorxiv http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2014/02/15/002691 | 16:54 |
| kanzure | "CC-BY-NC-ND" er is ND even compatible with citing | 16:58 |
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| kanzure | "shared last authorship" can they do that | 17:10 |
| kragen | fortunately copyright does not prevent you from citing so you can tell authors who attempt to keep you from doing it to fuck right off | 17:14 |
| fenn | i got "the open society and its enemies" and "the logic of scientific discovery" - are there other books by popper that are more important to read first? | 17:24 |
| * fenn gets "conjectures and refutations" too | 17:25 | |
| fenn | oh such awful typesetting | 17:26 |
| kanzure | "Declines in IQ scores and cognitive dysfunctions in children with acute lymphocytic leukaemia treated with cranial irradiation" | 17:27 |
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| drazak | paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1993768?sid=21104950382091&uid=3737664&uid=2&uid=4 | 17:28 |
| kanzure | "cranial irradiation may impair ccognitive function, guys" | 17:28 |
| kanzure | "Radiation-induced impairment of hippocampal neurogenesis is associated with cognitive deficits in young mice" (2004) | 17:28 |
| kanzure | no kidding? | 17:28 |
| fenn | .title | 17:29 |
| yoleaux | JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie | 17:29 |
| kanzure | oh, i guess targetted irradiation would be a useful thing | 17:29 |
| fenn | seems like everything wants a cookie these days | 17:29 |
| fenn | cookie monsters | 17:29 |
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| drazak | yeah | 17:30 |
| drazak | its awful | 17:30 |
| drazak | my institution sucks | 17:31 |
| drazak | WTB better institution | 17:31 |
| fenn | all institutions suck. smash the state! black power | 17:31 |
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| cluckj | fenn, what do you want to read popper for? | 17:44 |
| fenn | i feel like it's something i should have read | 17:44 |
| cluckj | oh, I mean it in the "what do you want to get out of his work" sense | 17:44 |
| fenn | i have no idea | 17:45 |
| cluckj | not the "WHY WOULD YOU EVER READ THAT" sense | 17:45 |
| cluckj | start with the logic of scientific discovery | 17:45 |
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| cluckj | I also suggest looking on youtube for lakatos' lectures | 17:52 |
| cluckj | his accent is fantastic | 17:52 |
| kanzure | .g site:youtube.com lakatos | 17:54 |
| yoleaux | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edPenNyGfI | 17:54 |
| kanzure | .title | 17:54 |
| yoleaux | Roby Lakatos & Linda Lampenius - Violin "Csardas" HD. - YouTube | 17:54 |
| cluckj | womp womp not on youtube | 17:57 |
| cluckj | http://www.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/About/lakatos/lectures.aspx | 17:57 |
| cluckj | .title | 17:57 |
| yoleaux | Lakatos lectures - Lakatos - About the Department - Philosophy, Logic and Scientific Method - Home | 17:57 |
| cluckj | yes, those are the ones I was thinking of | 17:58 |
| cluckj | if you find the philosophy of science texts a bore, the early sociology of science and sociology of scientific knowledge stuff is better | 18:00 |
| cluckj | e.g. Merton or Kuhn (ugh) | 18:02 |
| kanzure | mostly i am interested in not being wrong | 18:03 |
| cluckj | about how science works? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | no | 18:05 |
| cluckj | about..........anything? | 18:06 |
| kanzure | about thinking | 18:06 |
| kanzure | thoughts can be wrong | 18:06 |
| kanzure | i don't want to make bullshit | 18:06 |
| kanzure | that's just a waste of everyone's time | 18:06 |
| cluckj | welcome to the human race :P | 18:06 |
| kanzure | the institution of science can go do whatever it wants for all i care | 18:07 |
| cluckj | Bateson's Steps Toward an Ecology of Mind | 18:07 |
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| poppingtonic | .wik the sleepwalkers | 18:12 |
| yoleaux | "The Sleepwalkers: A History of Man's Changing Vision of the Universe is a 1959 book by Arthur Koestler. It is one of the main accounts of the history of cosmology and astronomy in the Western World, beginning in ancient Mesopotamia and ending with Isaac Newton." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleepwalkers | 18:12 |
| kanzure | neat "Inconsistencies and Controversies Surrounding the Amyloid Hypothesis of Alzheimer's Disease" | 18:19 |
| fenn | i already read kuhn, or at least enough to get the idea | 18:20 |
| kanzure | also cool "PET Quantification of Cerebral Oxygen Metabolism in Small Animals" | 18:21 |
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| cluckj | anything after kuhn? | 18:23 |
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| cluckj | his stuff is really historically internalist | 18:25 |
| fenn | i don't remember.. it was part of a history and philosophy of science class ~10 years ago | 18:28 |
| cluckj | oh | 18:28 |
| kanzure | "Astroglial cells in the human have a volume 27 times greater than the same cells in the mouse’s brain.[30]" Koob, Andrew (2009). The Root of Thought. FT Press. p. 186. ISBN 978-0-13-715171-4. | 18:33 |
| nmz787 | .tell chris_99 latest CAD stuff https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/blob/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.svg | 18:46 |
| yoleaux | nmz787: I'll pass your message to chris_99. | 18:46 |
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| nmz787 | .tell chris_99 bit easier to see, but not as crisp: https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/blob/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.jpg | 19:14 |
| yoleaux | nmz787: I'll pass your message to chris_99. | 19:14 |
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| nmz787 | .tell chris_99 here is a snapshot of the 50MB STL, not as good as the SVG rendition, which wasn't perfect itself https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/master/implicitCAD/output/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device__3D.png | 19:23 |
| yoleaux | nmz787: I'll pass your message to chris_99. | 19:23 |
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| kanzure | what is the name for the "loss of function"-style studies in neuroscience | 19:44 |
| kanzure | apparently it is not "loss of function" | 19:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.lowrisc.org/ "lowRISC is producing fully open hardware systems. From the processor core to the development board, our goal is to create a completely open computing eco-system." | 19:55 |
| kanzure | and a video ("starts at 16 minutes") http://streaming.media.ccc.de/relive/6156/ | 19:56 |
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| kanzure | "It's plausible based on public research that any well-funded adversary can break 1024-bit RSA. You should assume 1024-bit RSA is simply broken." | 20:26 |
| kanzure | "Yes and given that I'm kinda surprised we haven't seen any NSA docs talking about breaking 1024-bit RSA. That should have been their bread and butter, at least as far as DNI is concerned, a few years ago." | 20:26 |
| kanzure | "What 'yuhong said: it could be expensive, with NSA having the capability to break only one every couple months. They might need to carefully coordinate which keys they break, in which case it would be an important secret which CA keys were broken." | 20:26 |
| kragen | DNI? | 20:27 |
| kanzure | not sure | 20:28 |
| kanzure | maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Director_of_National_Intelligence | 20:29 |
| sheena2 | welder hates | 20:37 |
| sheena2 | hats | 20:37 |
| sheena2 | anyone know things about the auto-dim kind? | 20:37 |
| kragen | LCD | 20:37 |
| kanzure | no way they're liquid crystal displays | 20:38 |
| kragen | auto-darkening welder's face masks, you mean, right? | 20:38 |
| kanzure | that sounds unlikely | 20:38 |
| sheena2 | yes, lcd | 20:39 |
| sheena2 | kragen, do you jown one? | 20:39 |
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| kragen | no, I used the cheap non-auto-darkening type | 20:40 |
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| kragen | I got flashed a couple of times as a result too | 20:41 |
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| sheena2 | and you can still see? | 20:41 |
| kragen | yeah | 20:41 |
| sheena2 | which cheap one did you use, and did you find it good-enough? what sort of welding were you dongi? | 20:41 |
| kragen | whatever the Crucible gave us. I was just taking a few classes there: stick welding, MIG welding, and flame cutting | 20:42 |
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| kragen | I see people doing stick welding without any eye protection on a regular basis around here actually | 20:43 |
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| kragen | people in Argentina are less safety-conscious | 20:43 |
| kragen | I flashed myself when I got tired and careless, which is not a good time to be welding, with or without protective equipment | 20:43 |
| kragen | but we're talking about a barely-double-digit denominator of hours here | 20:44 |
| kragen | if we were talking about hundreds or thousands of welding hours things might be different | 20:44 |
| sheena2 | indeed. | 20:44 |
| sheena2 | im looking to do a few small projects, not sure i'l llike it or want to do more | 20:44 |
| sheena2 | so i dont want to spend 500 on a helmet!! | 20:45 |
| sheena2 | some here are 2000!! | 20:45 |
| kragen | similarly the people who I see on the street stick-welding without eye protection are doing maybe five or ten seconds per weld, and maybe half a dozen or so welds in a day | 20:45 |
| kragen | also I imagine doing it in sunlight protects your retina, if not your cornea | 20:45 |
| sheena2 | intersting. what sort of things are they doing? | 20:45 |
| kragen | oh, just random repairs on metal things | 20:45 |
| kragen | not skilled welders | 20:46 |
| kragen | the big downside of not having an autodarkening helmet is that when you're stick welding you can't see to strike the arc | 20:46 |
| sheena2 | ah | 20:46 |
| kragen | you have to do it entirely by feel | 20:46 |
| kragen | which is hardest when you're just starting | 20:46 |
| sheena2 | yes, and you cant see where your tip is, so you have to keep steady when flipping down visor | 20:46 |
| sheena2 | im mig welding, so i think i just squeeze a trigger? | 20:47 |
| kragen | yeah, although that's easier than it sounds | 20:47 |
| kragen | yeah | 20:47 |
| kragen | you still have to control the distance but you can do that by the light of the arc | 20:47 |
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| kragen | kanzure: why does it sound unlikely? :) | 20:48 |
| nmz787 | i saw people welding with no masks like it was nothing, in india | 20:48 |
| kanzure | because masks existed prior to liquid crystal displays | 20:48 |
| nmz787 | I did it once or twice for a few seconds when I got back home... didn't seem too bad to do in a pinch, but I have a helmet (just a cheap single-color filter) | 20:49 |
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| kragen | yeah, not autodarkening ones, though | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | na | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | but they sell them at harbor freight for like 50 buck | 20:49 |
| kragen | oh, that's useful to know, nmz787. do you mean autodarkening helmets or the regular kind? | 20:50 |
| kanzure | link? | 20:50 |
| nmz787 | I was always wary, but a little lag doesn't seem too bad after seeing the indians going at it | 20:50 |
| sheena2 | nmz787: you're talking bout regular ones? | 20:50 |
| nmz787 | autodarkening | 20:50 |
| sheena2 | ooh | 20:50 |
| nmz787 | http://www.harborfreight.com/blue-flame-design-auto-darkening-welding-helmet-91214.html | 20:50 |
| kragen | the 3M ones are typically 100μs | 20:51 |
| nmz787 | $54.99 | 20:51 |
| kanzure | blue flame means it goes fast | 20:51 |
| nmz787 | 1/25,000 second switching speed | 20:51 |
| nmz787 | that would be 40us right? | 20:51 |
| kragen | that's 40μs, faster than the 3M one, if it's real :) | 20:51 |
| sheena2 | http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/-10-fixed-shade-auto-darkening-welding-helmet/A-p8535478e our equiv to harbor frate | 20:51 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: any idea how easily it would be to port this to openSCAD or freecad or cadquery? https://github.com/nmz787/microfluidic-cad/blob/master/implicitCAD/tobacco_mesophyll_protoplast_fusion_device.escad | 20:53 |
| kanzure | i see that there's a divide by two in here, so freecad and cadquery are likely to crash | 20:53 |
| nmz787 | all input comes from the very end statement | 20:53 |
| nmz787 | ha | 20:54 |
| nmz787 | this hasn't crashed on me, but it doesn't do syntax error alerting well | 20:54 |
| kragen | sheena2: that one says 300μs | 20:54 |
| kanzure | i wish i was joking | 20:54 |
| sheena2 | smaller is better, right kragen? | 20:54 |
| nmz787 | sometimes stuff just won't appear in the rendering, and you have to go back and try to find where you missed an argument or a comma | 20:54 |
| nmz787 | I wonder though if sublime_text syntax highlighting could catch that and alert with the coloring.. hrmm | 20:55 |
| kanzure | implicitcad isn't a library? | 20:56 |
| kanzure | what the hell is wrong with this planet | 20:56 |
| nmz787 | I think so | 20:57 |
| nmz787 | I am not sure though, it is haskell which is totally out of my comfort zone | 20:57 |
| kanzure | i would be very surprised if haskell compilers don't give you syntax errors | 20:58 |
| nmz787 | and that file is some format they wrote defined here https://github.com/colah/ImplicitCAD/tree/318d96a8244279c4c2023dd6d4b16aebc96e45cf/Graphics/Implicit/ExtOpenScad | 20:58 |
| kanzure | ah so this is not compiled by haskell | 20:58 |
| kanzure | yeah i would recommend not using this | 20:58 |
| kanzure | just use implicitcad | 20:58 |
| nmz787 | hmm? | 20:58 |
| nmz787 | wait I am using implicitcad | 20:59 |
| kanzure | this extopenscad stuff is crap, ignore it | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | that is the interface that I'm using | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | it's what their 'getting started' or whatever is in | 20:59 |
| kanzure | i am sorry that people suck but they lied to you | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | it doesn't crash | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | :) | 20:59 |
| kanzure | silently failing on syntax errors is wrong | 20:59 |
| sheena2 | http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/welding-tip-nozzle-gel-0588154p.html#.VKDfEKIsCA should i buy this/ | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | well I've been able to get further with it than the other ones | 21:00 |
| kragen | sheena2: I assume smaller is better, but what I don't know is whether other things are maybe more important | 21:00 |
| kanzure | and creating new languages for cad is also wrong | 21:00 |
| sheena2 | kragen: there is a canadian certification that is required here | 21:00 |
| sheena2 | and it seems like anything that meets that is unlikely to be dangerous if used correctly | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | i am not sure but it may be backwards compatible with openSCAD syntax | 21:00 |
| kragen | yay government | 21:00 |
| kragen | I can't make any such assumptions about Argentina :) | 21:00 |
| kragen | I didn't know welding nozzle gel existed so I am probably not the right person to ask :) | 21:01 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: I imagine syntax issues relates to lexing though, less than CAD operations | 21:02 |
| kanzure | yes.... so therefore don'[t make a new language for cad operations | 21:02 |
| kanzure | cad is hard enough as it is | 21:02 |
| kanzure | you don't need to also take on problems related to languages, grammar, lexing, etc | 21:03 |
| nmz787 | ok I am up to port it, I have freecad with cadquery, and heekscad installed too | 21:04 |
| nmz787 | I don't have openSCAD installed | 21:04 |
| kanzure | when i used cadquery the renderings failed when i needed to divide or use fractional values | 21:04 |
| kanzure | so i assume the same happens with freecad | 21:04 |
| nmz787 | ok | 21:04 |
| kanzure | verbnurbs is probably okay, but it doesn't have many export formats at the moment | 21:05 |
| nmz787 | so then what is going to be better than implicitcad at this point? | 21:05 |
| sheena2 | kragen: i appreciate your help very much. so much to decide! | 21:05 |
| kanzure | (implementing stl export would be pretty easy) | 21:05 |
| kanzure | i think using implicitcad itself would be okay | 21:05 |
| kragen | sure! hope it's helpful for real :) | 21:05 |
| kanzure | extopenscad is something else | 21:05 |
| nmz787 | syntax wasn't too horrible to deal with, but I also don't know if it supports multiple files for a given design (so i can have the components in a library, with their own tests) | 21:05 |
| kragen | stl export is very easy once you have a mesh | 21:05 |
| sheena2 | http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/-o-canada-variable-shade-auto-darkening-welding-helmet/A-p8475675e a patriotic one!! | 21:05 |
| kragen | : | 21:05 |
| kragen | :D | 21:05 |
| nmz787 | in fact their API was pretty comfy | 21:06 |
| sheena2 | http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/lincoln-electric-premium-welding-gear-kit/A-p8578742e for $120 i could hve got a different welder (i dunno if its the same as mine or not) with a gloves and helmet.. but this is only 120 for a bunch of stuff! | 21:06 |
| kanzure | http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/32245045337/American-eagle-font-b-personalized-b-font-painting-auto-darkening-font-b-welding-b-font-font.jpg | 21:06 |
| nmz787 | I could imagine writing some 'import/include' machinery for supporting multiple files, but I need to learn a helluva lot of haskell first I think | 21:07 |
| kragen | sheena2: wow, we're really living in the future | 21:07 |
| sheena2 | kanzure: eagles are suh a weird thing in your country | 21:07 |
| kanzure | haskell already has the ability to compile from multiple files | 21:07 |
| nmz787 | i mean the escad files | 21:07 |
| kanzure | this is the advantage of using existing languages | 21:07 |
| kragen | I mean Lincoln is not a Harbor Freight bargain-basement no-name vendor | 21:07 |
| nmz787 | I haven't discovered how to run things without using extopenscad yet | 21:08 |
| kragen | oh, that doesn't include the welder itself | 21:08 |
| kragen | duffel bag yes, jacket yes, camouflage cap yes (!?!), gloves yes, helmet yes, welder no | 21:08 |
| sheena2 | hah right | 21:09 |
| sheena2 | i already have the welder | 21:09 |
| kragen | I guess the camouflage cap is in case you're welding in the jungle in Nam while Charlie is shooting at you? | 21:09 |
| sheena2 | welder was $200, welder with gloves and mask was $320 | 21:09 |
| nmz787 | "Originally, ImplicitCAD was just a Haskell library. ExtOpenScad was | 21:09 |
| nmz787 | added because people were terrified of Haskell and there is a ton of | 21:09 |
| nmz787 | existing OpenSCAD code. " | 21:09 |
| kragen | because that sounds like it wouldn't be a very smart idea anyway | 21:09 |
| sheena2 | i think it makes you feel like a bigger man? lol | 21:09 |
| kragen | haha | 21:09 |
| nmz787 | "The Haskell API is kind of crude, but I certainly think it could be a very nice way to design objects. And if we make it easy to integrate Haskell/extopenscad code, perhaps some people will switch to Haskell. Frameworks are known to drive adoption." | 21:10 |
| nmz787 | "But I think extopenscad is essential for us to get initial adoption." | 21:10 |
| kanzure | "we shitted all over our principles just to attract users and lie to them" | 21:10 |
| kragen | if we start discussing issues of gender performativity in here poor kanzure is likely to have another apoplectic fit that we're talking about things he doesn't understand :) | 21:10 |
| kanzure | sheena2: this was that boy from okcupid | 21:10 |
| sheena2 | http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/lincoln-electric-welding-gear-kit/A-p8454654e this one is a bit different.. i dunno maybe just not camo? lol | 21:10 |
| kanzure | chris olah | 21:11 |
| nmz787 | well good think I don't know openSCAD, but bad thing they don't have any native examples that I would have spent the last day coding with :/ | 21:11 |
| sheena2 | kanzure: you lost e | 21:11 |
| sheena2 | ooh | 21:11 |
| sheena2 | chris olah is.. having a fit? | 21:11 |
| sheena2 | i am now confused | 21:11 |
| kanzure | nmz787 is using chris olah software | 21:11 |
| kanzure | that is what we are talking about | 21:11 |
| kragen | yeah, sounds like it, sheena2 | 21:11 |
| sheena2 | oh fancy | 21:11 |
| nmz787 | what does that mean kanzure ? | 21:12 |
| kanzure | chris olah is a person, nmz787 | 21:12 |
| kanzure | sheena2 met chris and then we found out that i also knew of him | 21:12 |
| nmz787 | I mean is that good or bad? | 21:12 |
| kanzure | it's just context | 21:12 |
| nmz787 | ok | 21:12 |
| kanzure | probably good, though | 21:12 |
| kanzure | you should consider using haskell | 21:13 |
| kanzure | i wouldn't recommend using implicitcad if you are not using haskell | 21:13 |
| sheena2 | chris is from my country, i think | 21:13 |
| sheena2 | i forget | 21:13 |
| sheena2 | .. | 21:13 |
| kanzure | haha | 21:13 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:13 |
| kanzure | oh yeah i think andytoshi is near you at the moment | 21:14 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: still near vancouver? | 21:14 |
| kanzure | nmz787: try verbnurbs, if you don't like that then consider using haskell directly, and if not that then fallback to python + cadquery but be prepared to chase bugs through this mess http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade/ and then a looong distant option is openscad | 21:16 |
| sheena2 | anyone dealt with scabies? | 21:16 |
| kragen | when I hung out with Berkeley students a lot, Lothlorien had a scabies infestation | 21:17 |
| kanzure | human scabies? | 21:17 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: does verbnurbs have any export options though? | 21:17 |
| sheena2 | yeah | 21:17 |
| sheena2 | google says theyr use ivermectin in people | 21:17 |
| kanzure | nmz787: stl is very very easy to implement | 21:17 |
| kragen | Loth is one of the student housing co-ops, and it's one where the residents have a tendency to sit around naked in the common areas a lot | 21:17 |
| sheena2 | which is one of the drugs we use in dogs | 21:17 |
| kragen | it took them a while to get all the scabies out of all the furniture | 21:18 |
| kragen | but fortunately that's my closest brush with scabies | 21:18 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: does that include how fine the mesh ends up? i.e. how choppy/chunky it will be? | 21:18 |
| kanzure | he may have written a function for tessellation fidelity(?) resolution(?) idk | 21:20 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/pboyer/verb/blob/master/src/eval/tessellate.js | 21:20 |
| kragen | nmz787: my own STL export code is in this ten-line function: https://github.com/kragen/stl3dpy/blob/master/stl3d.py#L68 | 21:21 |
| kanzure | such code | 21:22 |
| kragen | the project as a whole is kindof embarrassing but whatever | 21:23 |
| kanzure | ah i didn't see your extrude function previously | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | hrmm | 21:26 |
| sheena2 | scabies dies in about 72 hours without humans | 21:26 |
| sheena2 | so you can just leave the room empty for a few days | 21:26 |
| sheena2 | selamectin is the best drug in dogs, but isnt used in people. any idea how to figure out the dose/if its safe? | 21:26 |
| kanzure | .wik selamectin | 21:28 |
| yoleaux | "Selamectin (trade names Revolution, Stronghold) is a topical parasiticide and antihelminthic used on dogs and cats, distributed by Zoetis, a former Pfizer subsidiary." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selamectin | 21:28 |
| nmz787 | do you have any experience using verb? should I clone the github repo then try using npm (i don't know what that is) | 21:28 |
| kanzure | .g site:igem.org selamectin | 21:28 |
| yoleaux | No results found. | 21:28 |
| sheena2 | thats he one | 21:28 |
| sheena2 | 6mg/kg in dogs | 21:28 |
| kanzure | someone should do an igem project on that... get some engineered bacteria to start killing scabies. | 21:29 |
| sheena2 | indeed | 21:29 |
| kanzure | nmz787: npm is just node's package manager | 21:29 |
| sheena2 | .g site:igem.org sarcoptes | 21:29 |
| yoleaux | No results found. | 21:29 |
| kragen | kanzure: I kind of think that the extrude function in http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/torus is actually better | 21:30 |
| kanzure | here's one where they secreted mosquito larvae pesticides http://2010.igem.org/Team:NCTU_Formosa/Abstract | 21:30 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: so you haven't actually fired verb up yourself, only saw the static images online? | 21:30 |
| kanzure | oh, yes, i haven't used verb yet | 21:30 |
| kanzure | but, if i had to, i would probably `npm install .` and then `verb = require('verb');` in some .js file | 21:31 |
| kanzure | i don't know if he has made any cad primitives yet | 21:32 |
| kanzure | basically if you want the quickest route to seeing cad objects on your screen, openscad is your only solution, but it is also the worst possible long-term solution | 21:32 |
| nmz787 | npm install gives me a bunch of 304s | 21:32 |
| nmz787 | I just installed from apt-get | 21:32 |
| kanzure | you installed what from apt-get? | 21:32 |
| kragen | 304 Not Modified? | 21:32 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: well in terms of stuff on screen, implicitcad has got me there already | 21:33 |
| kragen | openscad is pretty great as far as it goes but that isn't very far | 21:33 |
| nmz787 | installed npm | 21:33 |
| kanzure | you're not really using implicitcad right now | 21:33 |
| kanzure | sorry cad sucks so much | 21:36 |
| kanzure | writing a cad kernel is tough work | 21:36 |
| nmz787 | kragen: I had to do this to get past the weird errors sudo npm install n -g; sudo n stable | 21:36 |
| kanzure | i think verbnurbs is on the right direction | 21:36 |
| kanzure | what is "n" | 21:36 |
| nmz787 | no idea | 21:36 |
| nmz787 | from some stackoverflow | 21:36 |
| kanzure | why are you.. what.. | 21:36 |
| sheena2 | "Transfer of selamectin across human skin has been evaluated in in vitro models. These studies show that a very small amount of selamectin is transferred across human skin. Further analysis to predict user safety was conducted assuming a worst case scenario. Results of this analysis suggests that, if the entire 2 ml dose was spilled onto the skin and was not washed off, the amount absorbed would be 279 times less than the dose which showed no effect in r | 21:36 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: following this is giving errors https://github.com/pboyer/verb#getting-started | 21:37 |
| nmz787 | from the cloned repo dir | 21:37 |
| nmz787 | says grunt doesn't exist | 21:38 |
| kanzure | npm --version | 21:38 |
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| nmz787 | 1.4.28 | 21:39 |
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| kanzure | sudo npm install -g npm | 21:39 |
| kanzure | sudo npm install . | 21:40 |
| nmz787 | someone online says sudo npm install -g grunt-cli | 21:40 |
| kanzure | ./node_modules/bin/grunt | 21:40 |
| kanzure | sigh | 21:40 |
| kanzure | they skipped ahead | 21:40 |
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| nmz787 | ok, seemed to build verb now | 21:40 |
| kanzure | they should have first determined whether or not you were using an old version of npm | 21:40 |
| kanzure | and they didn't because people are awful | 21:40 |
| nmz787 | ok i upgraded npm | 21:41 |
| kanzure | my point was only that upgrading npm might make his instructions work | 21:42 |
| kanzure | rather than trying to install extra stuff | 21:42 |
| kanzure | i dunno what grunt-cli is | 21:43 |
| kanzure | and i don't know why pboyer assumes that "npm install" will also globally install grunt, that is wrong of him | 21:43 |
| kanzure | if anything it will be installed into ./node_modules/bin/ | 21:43 |
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| * kanzure sleeps | 21:53 | |
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| delinquentme | any ideas on the state of the art in piezo actuation? speed and accuracy are the aspectes im after | 22:44 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: "ImplicitCAD is around four thousand lines of code, and two thousand lines of comments and blanks." | 22:49 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: maybe these folks http://www.newscaletech.com/ | 22:51 |
| nmz787 | specifically http://www.newscaletech.com/technology/squiggle-motors.php | 22:52 |
| nmz787 | idk how representative of the entire piezo actuation field that is though | 22:53 |
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| maaku | is there anyone here working on a kinematic self-replicating machine? | 23:03 |
| sheena2 | paperbot http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15148100 | 23:05 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1001%2Farchderm.140.5.563 | 23:05 |
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| sheena2 | "Mites were considered | 23:08 |
| sheena2 | dead if their appendages did not move when prodded with a pin." | 23:08 |
| sheena2 | lovely | 23:08 |
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| fenn | "If they did this in a movie, I'd be like 'yeah, suuure you can do that..'" http://www.windytan.com/2014/02/mystery-signal-from-helicopter.html | 23:40 |
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| sheena2 | scabies gene discovery project http://cmr.asm.org/content/20/2/268.full#ref-44 | 23:46 |
| --- Log closed Mon Dec 29 00:00:06 2014 | ||
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