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| kanzure | beep | 05:23 |
|---|---|---|
| archels | 5½ hours of meetings later... | 05:24 |
| archels | time to start actual work | 05:24 |
| kanzure | you should send a cardboard cutout of yourself to the meetings | 05:24 |
| cluckj | a cardboard cutout? why not do the cool thing and make a clone? | 05:26 |
| maaku | or a digital display with the accumulated salary + overhead of the people in the room | 05:26 |
| kanzure | "ha, ha, ha. that joke cost you n * $300,000/year / cost per minute." | 05:27 |
| cluckj | hahahaha | 05:27 |
| cluckj | like I do with my students | 05:27 |
| kanzure | waste their time and make their life miserable? *ducks* | 05:27 |
| cluckj | I do a calculation on the board of how much missing a class costs them | 05:27 |
| maaku | cluckj: you probably don't need that many digits for that display | 05:28 |
| cluckj | well, of course, I thought that was assumed | 05:28 |
| cluckj | maaku, tuition is almost $50k a year for them | 05:28 |
| kanzure | yeah how much does that come out to? a few cents? | 05:28 |
| maaku | and a their remaining dignity | 05:28 |
| kanzure | i like this guy | 05:29 |
| cluckj | their classes cost $208 per hour | 05:29 |
| cluckj | 4 classes, 4 hours a week, for 15 weeks | 05:29 |
| kanzure | per actual hour or per "hour"? | 05:29 |
| cluckj | per actual hour | 05:29 |
| cluckj | ugh shit I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo underpaid | 05:30 |
| cluckj | oh I guess it's $104 | 05:31 |
| cluckj | my bad | 05:31 |
| cluckj | so the university is raking in $1875/hr | 05:32 |
| cluckj | and paying me like $20 | 05:32 |
| kanzure | aren't there laws against this | 05:46 |
| cluckj | I wish | 05:53 |
| kanzure | "At these very early stages Bitcoin is wildly susceptible to the temporary whims of a relatively small number of day traders. I do not believe the price represents the long term sentiment of most of those involved in Bitcoin, or even of the aforementioned day traders themselves, but rather the short term profitability of exchange trading." | 05:55 |
| kanzure | i'm trying to remember why this is a non-statement | 05:55 |
| kanzure | on the surface it does not look like a non-statement, but i'm pretty sure it is one | 05:55 |
| maaku | well for one "bitcoin" != "usd/btc exchange rate" | 06:05 |
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| kanzure | maaku: thanks, perfect | 06:07 |
| kanzure | also i don't know what the fuck it means to believe a price is representing something | 06:07 |
| kanzure | so there's two. | 06:07 |
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| kanzure | .title http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/12/underwater-city-japan_n_6438832.html?ir=Green&ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000044 | 09:14 |
| yoleaux | Japan Unveils Designs For First Underwater City, And We're In Awe | 09:14 |
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| altersid_ | dear student, | 09:42 |
| altersid_ | oops, sorry - ww | 09:42 |
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| nmz787_i | http://dberard.com/home-built-stm/ | 10:28 |
| nmz787_i | from http://hackaday.com/2015/01/13/cheap-diy-microscope-sees-individual-atoms/ | 10:28 |
| kanzure | "The biggest and most complex multi-branched multi-function undersea communications network is the one setup by Canada's NEPTUNE project off the shore of Vancouver. It's 900km of cable linking a vast array of stationary experiment plaftorms and mobile crawler rovers." | 10:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.marinebuzz.com/marinebuzzuploads/NeptuneCanada_11F58/NEPTUNE_Canada_3.jpg | 10:28 |
| nmz787_i | uses http://gwyddion.net/ | 10:28 |
| kanzure | "They've setup a whole undersea internet using these sophisticated sealed power and communications router nodes that have their cables pre-installed and dropped whole on the seafloor and periodically raised for service and upgrade. This is the closest present day analogy to the kind of installation your telescope would use." | 10:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.oceannetworks.ca/sites/default/files/images/pages/instruments/node_and_trf_960x300_0.jpg | 10:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.oceannetworks.ca/installations/observatories/neptune-ne-pacific | 10:28 |
| kanzure | "Putting things on the sea floor with precision is really hard. There are generally no anchors used for underwater cables. They just sit on the sea floor--occasionally getting caught in anchors or nets or gnawed on by marine life..." | 10:28 |
| kanzure | http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2014/08/16/1227026/718462-e4994742-2524-11e4-8345-5834e4b1ef5c.jpg | 10:28 |
| kanzure | " Near shore they will bury cables to avoid storm problems. This usually involves a system that digs a trench, fills it with mud or jelly-like bentonite clay, drops the cable in the trench with the clay, then pumps-out the clay as the trench is filled. But this isn't a particularly precise process either. Things that need some kind of precision arrangement will often employ some sort of chassis or frame dropped whole or in large modular ... | 10:29 |
| kanzure | ... units on the sea floor and used as a guide to assemble other things on or may use some kind of anchors or pilings placed from rigs on the surface using laser positioning guides, which is quite tricky. This is very rare as very few marine applications have ever called for that much precision. Engineers more usually try to design the need for precision out of the systems." | 10:29 |
| kanzure | "One thing about your observatory design I wonder about is if the drift in the suspended vertical cables would effect the performance of detectors. Even at great depths, they're likely to constantly shift around a modest amount due to small currents, creating a somewhat wobbly frame of reference for the grid, if that matters. Storms might have the detectors hitting each other if closely spaced, but a rigid frame or other stabilizing ... | 10:29 |
| kanzure | ... structures would block the view of the sensors. I wonder if something off-the-shelf might be an option. There are large ready-made geodesic spheres for marine use, designed as open sea fish pens. Called Aquapods, they have been deployed in projects with NELHA. (Natural Energy Laboratory, Hawaii --where the US's only OTEC plant used to be and is supposedly being rebuilt by Lockheed)" | 10:29 |
| kanzure | http://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/aquapod_fish-farm1.jpg | 10:29 |
| nmz787_i | huh, that's pretty cool | 10:31 |
| nmz787_i | I had no idea there was such a sensor network | 10:31 |
| nmz787_i | huh, that STM project guy has this on his site :"The current goal of my research at McGill University is to develop a platform for linearly extending long DNA molecules for genomic analysis. We do this by confining them in nanoscale grooves etched in glass and observe them with fluorescence microscopy." | 10:33 |
| nmz787_i | "We use a technique called “Convex Lens-induced Confinement” (CLiC, invented by my supervisor Prof. Sabrina Leslie) to confine DNA into nanogrooves using tunable vertical confinement. The DNA are loaded into an imaging chamber formed by two microscope coverslips separated by a thin double-sided tape spacer with a flow channel laser-cut in it. The bottom chamber surface contains the nanogrooves. A microscope objective observes | 10:34 |
| nmz787_i | molecules inside the chamber from below. A convex lens presses on the top surface of the chamber to squeeze DNA into the nanogrooves from above. The entropy change is gradual, and the DNA don’t break in the process. I’ve used this technique to extend T4-phage DNA (166 kbp) to grooves as narrow as 27 nm." | 10:34 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/leslielab/index.html | 10:34 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, reminds me of the matrix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdiO9c4OYLo | 10:36 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 10:36 |
| yoleaux | DNA confinement in 27nm grooves using CLiC - YouTube | 10:36 |
| delinquentme | HUK | 10:42 |
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| kanzure | maaku: oh i have been stalking ksotala since 2011 at least | 11:10 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.uark.edu/misc/mbestm/pubs/etch-stop.pdf | 11:10 |
| kanzure | maaku: eg http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Advantages%20of%20artificial%20intelligences,%20uploads,%20and%20digital%20minds%20-%20Kaj%20Sotala%20-%202012.pdf | 11:10 |
| nmz787_i | Etch-stop method for reliably fabricating sharp yet mechanically stable scanning tunneling microscope tips | 11:10 |
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| nmz787 | .tell delinquentme http://hackaday.com/2012/12/21/making-graphene-with-a-dvd-burner/ | 13:10 |
| yoleaux | nmz787: I'll pass your message to delinquentme. | 13:10 |
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| nmz787 | .tell delinquentme this guy is really nice, replicated that blu-ray graphene experiment http://web.pdx.edu/~esanchez/sanchezTeam.html | 13:12 |
| yoleaux | nmz787: I'll pass your message to delinquentme. | 13:12 |
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| nmz787 | zotero shoutout in my lab class | 14:47 |
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| kanzure | .title http://www.wired.com/2015/01/isilk-road-trial-opening-statements/ | 15:55 |
| yoleaux | Silk Road Defense Says Ulbricht Was Framed by the 'Real' Dread Pirate Roberts | WIRED | 15:55 |
| kanzure | "Assistant US attorney Timothy Howard also said in his statement that Ulbricht at one point confessed creating the Silk Road to an old college friend. That purported personal breach of Ulbricht’s secrecy represents a damaging new claim from the prosecution, and Howard said that the college friend would be serving as a witness in the trial." | 15:57 |
| kanzure | i wonder if that' the guy i was gonna sue. hm. | 15:57 |
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| kanzure | "According to Howard, Ulbricht called the as-yet unnamed friend for programming advice multiple times in 2010 and 2011. After initially refusing to tell the friend about the nature of the site and describing it as “top secret,” Howard says that Ulbricht eventually caved and revealed his ownership of the Silk Road." | 16:00 |
| kanzure | hehehe dread pirate roberts asking for programming help | 16:00 |
| kanzure | "gais halp" | 16:00 |
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| kanzure | .title http://www.fastcoexist.com/3038824/a-real-dallas-buyers-club-a-startup-helps-sick-and-dying-patients-get-experimental-drugs | 16:22 |
| yoleaux | A Real Dallas Buyers Club: A Startup Helps Sick And Dying Patients Get Experimental Drugs | Co.Exist | ideas + impact | 16:22 |
| kanzure | .title https://mytomorrows.com/ | 16:22 |
| yoleaux | myTomorrows - access to innovative drugs in development | 16:22 |
| kanzure | haha "In most countries health authorities must grant permission for treatment. | 16:23 |
| kanzure | myTomorrows facilitates requests for permission for physicians and pharmacists. After approval by the health authorities, myTomorrows ensures timely supply of the requested drug from drug developers across the globe to the relevant pharmacist, and subsequently the patient." | 16:23 |
| delinquentme | do RFIDs have any kind of real protection? | 16:23 |
| yoleaux | 13 Jan 2015 21:10Z <nmz787> delinquentme: http://hackaday.com/2012/12/21/making-graphene-with-a-dvd-burner/ | 16:23 |
| yoleaux | 13 Jan 2015 21:12Z <nmz787> delinquentme: this guy is really nice, replicated that blu-ray graphene experiment http://web.pdx.edu/~esanchez/sanchezTeam.html | 16:23 |
| delinquentme | I cant imagine they do | 16:23 |
| kanzure | screw that get out of the country | 16:23 |
| kanzure | what do you mean by protection? | 16:23 |
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| delinquentme | it costs $16 to copy them | 16:24 |
| delinquentme | I'd hope theres some other magic happening ? | 16:24 |
| kanzure | "myTomorrows works by negotiating directly with drug developers for access to promising treatments, compiling accurate data on the drug's risks and successes to date, streamlining the application paperwork, and later receiving data on the use of the drug. It aims to provide a one-stop shop for desperate patients seeking options, as well as biotech and pharmaceutical companies that are too short-staffed to deal with requests from sick ... | 16:25 |
| kanzure | ... patients or want to hold the whole process at arms-length. The startup's lawyers have spent three years weeding through the specific laws in each European nation. "We do all the paperwork in basically an automated fashion," says Brus." | 16:25 |
| kanzure | "Brus and his colleagues aren't the only people pushing to ease restrictions to early-stage drugs. In the U.S., the libertarian Goldwater Institute is lobbying to pass "Right To Try" legislation in all 50 states that would give doctors the "ok" to prescribe terminally-ill patients unapproved drugs that have undergone minimum basic safety testing. In the last year or so, it's succeeded in passing bills in five states: Colorado, Arizona, ... | 16:25 |
| kanzure | ... Louisiana, Michigan, and Missouri. Still, these bills might not change much, says Alison Bateman-House, a researcher who specializes in compassionate use at NYU's Department of Medical Ethics: The FDA has ultimate authority and could still require patients apply to individually for exemptions." | 16:25 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: many things can be powered by rfid | 16:26 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification | 16:27 |
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| heath | nmz787: wish there were more detailson that stm | 16:46 |
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| kanzure | .title http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141203/ncomms6578/full/ncomms6578.html | 17:47 |
| yoleaux | Lattice-free prediction of three-dimensional structure of programmed DNA assemblies : Nature Communications : Nature Publishing Group | 17:47 |
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| kanzure | hi cpopell | 18:57 |
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| maaku | kanzure: have you seen ksotala's most recent proposal? http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_14212047542116&key=9f37ca02a1e3cbd4f3d0a3618a39fbca&libId=7e158bfd-a7c2-40d7-9b75-99f3b8a44ea4&loc=http%3A%2F%2Flesswrong.com%2Fuser%2FMark_Friedenbach%2Foverview%2F&v=1&type=U&out=http%3A%2F%2Fintelligence.org%2Ffiles%2FConceptLearning.pdf&ref=http%3A%2F%2Flesswrong. | 19:06 |
| maaku | com%2Fuser%2FBen_Goertzel%2Foverview%2F&title=Overview%20for%20Mark_Friedenbach%20-%20Less%20Wrong&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fintelligence.org%2Ffiles%2FConceptLearning.pdf | 19:06 |
| maaku | gah sorry | 19:06 |
| maaku | http://intelligence.org/files/ConceptLearning.pdf | 19:06 |
| kanzure | not yet | 19:06 |
| maaku | he's presenting it the AI ethics workshop in Austin on the 25th | 19:06 |
| kanzure | i'll have to skip that, but i wouldn't mind hanging out with him | 19:07 |
| kanzure | i'd probably flip a table or something | 19:07 |
| kanzure | "your concept of ethics is horseshit" etc | 19:07 |
| maaku | yeah i told him he should look you up, which I assume you saw | 19:07 |
| maaku | he's one of the few people with MIRI who has a clue | 19:08 |
| kanzure | i talked with him earlier today for a bit when he messaged me | 19:08 |
| kanzure | btw fenn is moving in with the MIRI crew today | 19:08 |
| kanzure | i think he was on a flight today for this | 19:08 |
| maaku | really? | 19:08 |
| kanzure | well, i don't know if this particular home is still known as the miri group home or not | 19:09 |
| maaku | I thought fenn was -- the horror! -- more of a practitioner? | 19:09 |
| kanzure | yeah but he also appreciates cheaprent | 19:09 |
| maaku | oh i see, the MIRI house | 19:09 |
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| kanzure | maaku: one of the complaints i have about singinst-style "ethics" is that it seems ridiculous to hypothesize that human brains are ethics-constrained, given the great amounts of "unfriendly" behavior we have seen generated in even recent history | 19:10 |
| kanzure | but also, imposing those sorts of limits on human brains seems really really manipulative and controlling of them | 19:11 |
| maaku | kanzure: yeah we're not ethics-constrained by any measure. | 19:11 |
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| kanzure | e.g. i mean if they want to roll out their own global thinkcontrol ethicscontrol thingy | 19:11 |
| kanzure | (and it's ridiculous to favor only certain beings with cognitive ability- suddenly biological beings are not as dangerous in their framework? please. that's just an inconsistency.) | 19:12 |
| maaku | oh i don't think they want think-control, just action-control | 19:12 |
| maaku | you suddenly can't do evil things, because super-wise nanny AI prevents you | 19:12 |
| kanzure | i take the greg egan definition of thinking (pushing real stuff around in your head, various results from that computation like motion) | 19:12 |
| kanzure | yes but supernanny is just a race-to-get-there-first basically | 19:12 |
| kanzure | and why would i let them win? | 19:12 |
| maaku | yeah super-nanny is "make sure only I have godlike powers" | 19:13 |
| maaku | and all the friendly AI stuff is "it's okay, this is why you can trust me with godlike powers" | 19:14 |
| kanzure | right... actually i'll be more generous and say "only certain other activity is allowed, but ultimately this process must have control and veto power over anything in this light sphere" | 19:14 |
| kanzure | except it's not okay, because friendliness is crap | 19:14 |
| kanzure | hm | 19:18 |
| kanzure | yeah i don't like this paper at all | 19:19 |
| kanzure | it assumes that the idea of concepts is a good one, and it very well might not be | 19:19 |
| kanzure | *of "concepts" | 19:20 |
| kragen | we do seem to be causing a mass extinction and possibly driving the biosphere toward a runaway greenhouse effect | 19:20 |
| kragen | so we may not be very friendly | 19:20 |
| maaku | not sure I understand the objection, kanzure | 19:20 |
| kragen | but it might be possible to be less friendly | 19:21 |
| kanzure | maaku: i think the idea of "concepts" is highly likely to be totally wrong, so i don't see why he is interested in it | 19:21 |
| kragen | maybe even without going all the way to miri's paperclip maximizer | 19:21 |
| kanzure | kragen: nuking the planet is much less friendly | 19:21 |
| kanzure | and quite simple | 19:21 |
| kanzure | interstellar walls of computronium are also considered rude | 19:21 |
| kanzure | in general | 19:21 |
| maaku | it's certainly true that AGI architectures like OpenCog work by having a "concept" repository, which is used for generating new ideas | 19:22 |
| kanzure | well, interstellar walls of computronium imposing on your location, i mean | 19:22 |
| kragen | right, xactly | 19:22 |
| kragen | so far we haven't been demonstrated to nuke the planet but we certainly seem to pose a non-negligible risk of doing so | 19:22 |
| kanzure | maaku: i'm not even sure anyone has ever experimentally verified that an "idea" is a real thing that exists, and not just folk/pop psychology nonsense | 19:22 |
| kragen | and we don't really know if nuclear winter or similar catastrophe would result | 19:22 |
| kanzure | nuke the planet doesn't mean just fallout, i mean nuke every square millimeter | 19:23 |
| kanzure | of the surface | 19:23 |
| maaku | ok, i'm pretty sure what you're talking about is not what is meant by concept in this context | 19:23 |
| kanzure | maaku: go on? | 19:23 |
| kragen | we have not come close to being able to nuke every square millimeter | 19:23 |
| kragen | but maybe soon we could | 19:23 |
| maaku | concept is just internal models of the world, and processes of thinking, etc. | 19:23 |
| kanzure | kragen: even if we tried? | 19:23 |
| kragen | you will not succeed in nuking every square millimeter if you try | 19:24 |
| kanzure | maaku: yeah there's not much evidence of that i think.. it's true that there's something like a memory that happens, and predictions based on that, but it may not be anything like a model.. nobody knows. | 19:24 |
| kanzure | whoops i should remove "nobody knows" | 19:24 |
| maaku | i'm using a generic meaning for "model" -- whatever it is, that's what i'm talking about | 19:24 |
| kanzure | kragen: i assume that you would not start by one sq mm section at a time, but rather a general plan to get there, like simultaneous orbital launch? | 19:24 |
| maaku | and in the context of AGI, it's an explicit data structure | 19:25 |
| kragen | no | 19:25 |
| kragen | i mean that if you try then you will be arrested | 19:25 |
| kanzure | maaku: that explicit data structure might be totally irrelevant or broken though.... how would anyone know? | 19:25 |
| kanzure | maaku: (specifically i'm talking about "how do you know that it corresponds to anything in the human brain?") | 19:25 |
| kragen | not guaranteed but far more likely than succeeding | 19:25 |
| kragen | if you counterfactually propose that the entire human race collaborate to build nuclear weapons in order to nuke every square millimeter, then sure, we could, but that's sort of an argument that assumes the contradiction of what it's trying to prove | 19:25 |
| kanzure | kragen: arrest is irrelevant in that context i think, heh | 19:25 |
| kanzure | what is the contradiction | 19:26 |
| kragen | if the entire human race collaborates frictionlessly in such a way then we could more easily imagine them collaborating to do something that wouldn't kill them all | 19:26 |
| kragen | in a horrifying way | 19:26 |
| kanzure | eh, the entire human population? all of them? that's a fairly pessimistic estimate! | 19:26 |
| kragen | well, so lacking such extreme counterfactuals | 19:27 |
| kanzure | hopefully such a venture would take less than 1 million people | 19:27 |
| kragen | we are left with what has been factually demonstrated in the past | 19:27 |
| kanzure | otherwise i would be worried | 19:27 |
| kragen | which is that the existing social structure constrains people to be sufficiently friendly that they don't build nuclear arsenals capable of nuking every square millimeter of the surface, or even close | 19:28 |
| kragen | in part because of the very low efficiency of existing nuclear weapons | 19:28 |
| kragen | but in greater part because of things like the iaea | 19:28 |
| maaku | kanzure: right sure. but i think kaj (and myself) would say, if it appears to get the same result, who cares? | 19:33 |
| maaku | psychology appears to describe the way in which humans behave. if we use constructivist psycology to build an artificial human, it might not actually work the way the brain does | 19:33 |
| maaku | but hopefully it does behave similar to how a human does | 19:33 |
| maaku | and really for me all i care is that "sudo make me a nanofactory" works | 19:34 |
| maaku | for which human thinking is illustrative, but not required | 19:34 |
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| frege | anyone from philly here? | 20:12 |
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| bbrittain | oh I just gave something to google... for free. | 20:40 |
| bbrittain | #stupid | 20:40 |
| bbrittain | something a tech lead wanted enough to email ME | 20:40 |
| bbrittain | on the bright side, when they take over I will be on the winning side | 20:41 |
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| nmz787 | heath: that STM looks like a copy of the asian instructables by the professor | 21:49 |
| kanzure | dbz isn't what i remember https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVd-cb6m4hM | 21:49 |
| nmz787 | heath: I guess I meant AFM, they look somewhat similar http://www.instructables.com/id/A-Low-Cost-Atomic-Force-Microscope-%E4%BD%8E%E6%88%90%E6%9C%AC%E5%8E%9F%E5%AD%90%E5%8A%9B%E9%A1%AF%E5%BE%AE%E9%8F%A1/?ALLSTEPS | 21:51 |
| nmz787 | comments here http://hackaday.com/2014/04/29/a-diy-atomic-force-microscope/ | 21:51 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jan 14 00:00:23 2015 | ||
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