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| archels_ | nmz787: welllll all that I really need is a way to typeset two or three very simple circuits for a paper | 06:00 |
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| archels_ | at this point it would probably wise to contain myself and not take on another project =) | 06:00 |
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| maaku | archels_: surely there is a latex tool for that? | 06:09 |
| archels_ | yeah, CircuiTikz | 06:11 |
| archels_ | which I've opted for in the end--initially was a bit weary in case it needed modifications/extensions | 06:11 |
| archels_ | (as I'm not that adept at LaTeX) | 06:11 |
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| archels_ | "Overall, wireheading has many positive effects and few negative ones." | 06:31 |
| archels_ | http://www.turingbirds.com/temp/wireheading.pdf | 06:31 |
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| maaku | is Jessica Taylor on here? | 06:44 |
| kanzure | i don't think so | 06:45 |
| maaku | i think the Dalai Lama would find that one cannot free oneself from negative emotions without affecting the rest of their thinking | 06:45 |
| kanzure | uhrm.. go on? | 06:46 |
| kanzure | what brought this up | 06:46 |
| maaku | the quote at the beginning of the wireheading class paper archels_ posted | 06:47 |
| maaku | "If it was possible to become free of negative emotions by a riskless implementation of an electrode - | 06:47 |
| maaku | without impairing intelligence and | 06:47 |
| maaku | the critical mind - I would be the first patient." | 06:47 |
| maaku | -The Dalai Lama | 06:47 |
| maaku | (Society for Neuroscience Congress, Nov. 2005) | 06:47 |
| kanzure | huh, the dalai lama said that? bizarre | 06:48 |
| kanzure | i disagree with the positive/negative emotion thing, that sounds like pop/folk psychology | 06:50 |
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| maaku | right | 06:53 |
| maaku | unfortunately buddhism is like the religion of pop psychology | 06:53 |
| kanzure | "what about all that motorcycle maintenance stuff? that's totally legit, right?" | 06:54 |
| kanzure | (actually i've never read that book, so maybe i shouldn't take such a cheap shot at it) | 06:56 |
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| kanzure | found in the "Ask HN: who's hiring?" thread: "ARE YOU A COWARD? This is not for you. We badly need a brave person. He must be 20 to 28 years old, in perfect health, at least six feet tall, weigh exactly 190 pounds, fluent English with some French, proficient with all weapons, deep knowledge of engineering and mathematics essential, willing to travel, no family or emotional ties, indomitably courageous and handsome of face and figure. ... | 08:00 |
| kanzure | ... Permanent employment, very high pay, glorious adventure, great danger. You must not apply in person." | 08:00 |
| kanzure | .title http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/acn3.161/full | 08:05 |
| yoleaux | Variation in longevity gene KLOTHO is associated with greater cortical volumes - Yokoyama - 2015 - Annals of Clinical and Translational Neurology - Wiley Online Library | 08:05 |
| kanzure | "A man who always obeys the law is even stupider than one who breaks it every chance." | 08:12 |
| kanzure | hrm | 08:12 |
| archels | "when the network ignites" | 08:44 |
| archels | (re cortical networks) | 08:44 |
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| heath | music http://media.blizzard.com/hearthstone/audio/hearthstone-soundtrack.zip | 09:37 |
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| kanzure | that's not right http://lookbook.jupiterascending.com/images/assets/Orus-04-med.jpg | 10:16 |
| kanzure | ah i mean this one: | 10:16 |
| kanzure | http://lookbook.jupiterascending.com/images/assets/Orus-06.jpg | 10:16 |
| kanzure | "Intuitively the critical path is a sequence of tasks such that, if any task in that sequence takes one minute longer, then the whole project will take one minute longer. So, the tasks on the critical path have no slack." | 11:02 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=a24ff755 Bryan Bishop: a definition of critical path >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/ | 11:13 |
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| maaku | kanzure: i think you found the perfect job! | 11:31 |
| kanzure | "$50k couldn't even open a Subway franchise in a really cheap location. And Subway has really cheap franchises. Most fast food restaurant franchises will have startup costs in the $250,000 to $3m range. (I use franchises because the numbers are easily available. Independent restaurants vary, and if you're doing an indie-feel coffee shop or hole-in-the-wall you might be able to swing $10k, but $100-200k is what you'll start at for the ... | 11:32 |
| kanzure | ... type of restaurant that might actually make money. Heck, your signage might cost $5k.) The sort of capital needed for most businesses is beyond the ability of most people to save. For some businesses (like software or various types of personal services) you can pay a lot of sweat equity, but there's lots of other types that just plain need money capital. If you're just saving, most of these would be out of range for even the upper ... | 11:32 |
| kanzure | ... middle class." | 11:32 |
| maaku | i have a martial arts instructor who made a killing in a private army during the first years of the ocupation (>$300k per year, no living expenses) | 11:32 |
| maaku | kanzure: that's why we desperately need cheap, zero inerest loans | 11:33 |
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| kanzure | if it is zero interest, then isn't it free and not just cheap? | 11:34 |
| maaku | kanzure: zero basic interest, e.g. if the loan were really no-risk it would be 0% | 11:34 |
| maaku | restaurants are not low-risk though. but the owner should be paying risk premium, not risk premium + 8% | 11:35 |
| * bbrittain is confused about why anyone would want to open anything other than a indie-feel coffee shop | 11:35 | |
| maaku | a subway franchise can be pretty good money | 11:36 |
| bbrittain | I considered opening a indi-feel coffee shop that just laughed at customers when they asked about sugar/cream. Then I realized I would make no money & could be prentious in my own house | 11:36 |
| kanzure | this is a pretty good story, but needs more antics like "but i had already ordered 10,000 pounds of coffee beans" | 11:37 |
| bbrittain | I wish. I'm currently advocating for ginkgo to buy me as espresso machine. I think they'll give in soon. | 11:39 |
| bbrittain | s/as/an/ | 11:39 |
| kanzure | maaku: i suspect the reason why more transhumanists don't do things is because they on average don't have the money to buy any of the cool shit they need, or the cool shit is out of the range of their budgets | 11:41 |
| kanzure | of course, most of these things don't really need to be that expensive anyway | 11:41 |
| maaku | kanzure: eh, there's a lot cheap stuff that could be donee | 11:42 |
| maaku | just focusing on nanotech since that's my area, molecular dynamics simulators a absolute shit | 11:42 |
| kanzure | certainly... but a lot of the cheap stuff is "garbage diving and hoping that you get something good", whereas more progress could be made if there was a consistently cheap and consistently working product | 11:42 |
| maaku | writing code is cheap | 11:42 |
| kanzure | ah i am not referring to nanotechnology, i mean even fablab equipment | 11:42 |
| maaku | why aren't people out there improving nanorex? | 11:43 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/BOMs/comparison/fablab.yaml | 11:43 |
| kanzure | nanorex went under | 11:43 |
| maaku | the source code is out there, no? | 11:43 |
| kanzure | well, i mean, the guy funding nanorex decided to stop spending $1M/year funding its development | 11:43 |
| kanzure | yes there is source code available for nanoengineer https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer | 11:44 |
| maaku | there are some people in the 3d printing space who are interested in building self-replicating 3d printers | 11:44 |
| maaku | ah sorry conflated the two nanorex/nanoengineer | 11:44 |
| kanzure | unfortunately the 3d printing people are almost universally all lying about their interest in self-replication, and often think that everything not plastic as a vitamin part counts as self-replication | 11:45 |
| maaku | but yeah, i don't know why people actually doing this work and transhumanists are disjoint sets | 11:45 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/BOMs/comparison/techshop.yaml | 11:45 |
| kanzure | i think it's just because stuff's not cheap, hehe | 11:45 |
| kanzure | like even lab equipment in biology is expensive- there are thermocyclers that cost $20k for no good reason | 11:45 |
| kanzure | even though anyone and their dog can make a thermocycler for <$50 in parts | 11:45 |
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| kanzure | well anyway, that sort of pattern repeats across *every* industry | 11:46 |
| kanzure | *everywhere* | 11:47 |
| kanzure | $500k cnc machines, $40k spectrophotography machines, $10k laser cutters, etc. etc. | 11:48 |
| kanzure | and AFM prices.. don't get me started on that. bleh. | 11:49 |
| kanzure | "well it's extremely advanced technology involving glitter and light, so let's say um... $2M each?" | 11:49 |
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| kanzure | maaku: also, yes, writing code yourself is pretty cheap (althugh perhaps not when you examine opportunity costs for capital accumulation elsewhere writing code)... | 11:53 |
| kanzure | in general lots of machinists are the type that would scoff at people who say "well you should write more code" because it bares a striking resemblence to doing nothing | 11:53 |
| kanzure | but in the case of other transhumanists, writing code is better than nothing hehe | 11:53 |
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| maaku | bah, automation is the only real leverage we have | 12:07 |
| maaku | how does SpaceX beat the pants of Boeing? by writing code -- automated manufacturing and tests, where boeing is paying top engineering dollar to build rockets manually | 12:07 |
| kanzure | i would be very surprised if software is the only reason that spacex has wrking equipment | 12:08 |
| kanzure | what's the claim you're making? | 12:08 |
| kanzure | *working | 12:08 |
| kanzure | i think vlsi is another cheapo available leverage (microelectronics vlsi and microfluidic vlsi) | 12:09 |
| maaku | build a $5k cnc machine .. and kudo to you. design a framework for interface and controlling cheaply assembled cnc machines and your impact is much bigger | 12:09 |
| kanzure | er... but nobody is needing that? linucnc works just fine. | 12:09 |
| kanzure | *linuxcnc | 12:10 |
| kanzure | another plausible solution (that i have not put enough thought into) is something like transcriptic but for flexible manufacturing cells | 12:11 |
| kanzure | these are cells that usually include a robotic arm and some other specialized equipment that you would rent out remotely by the minute or hour or whatever | 12:11 |
| kanzure | i strongly prefer local equipment but reality has no reason to conform to my demands :) | 12:11 |
| kanzure | anyway in such a system you would not have to buy expensive equipment all the time, but would still have "direct access" (er.. remotely.. so not really direct.) | 12:12 |
| maaku | i think what you're describing now is more what I meant | 12:15 |
| kanzure | hm? | 12:15 |
| maaku | transcriptic-like automation for manufacturing | 12:15 |
| maaku | manufacturing is not really my area though, i'm pretty much pulling on machine shop classes in college | 12:15 |
| kanzure | ooh what a surprise the token agi person has no regular exposure to machinery :P | 12:16 |
| kanzure | </racism> | 12:16 |
| maaku | well machine shop plus reading KSRM | 12:17 |
| maaku | yeah well I see the value though | 12:17 |
| kanzure | i am just teasing | 12:17 |
| maaku | i just feel I can better contribute through code | 12:17 |
| maaku | i know | 12:17 |
| kanzure | actually, why doesn't transcriptic count here? surely you were exposed to a bunch of equipment there, even in the admittedly short term of your stay there? | 12:19 |
| maaku | hah i guess it does. i did spend most my time upstairs writing code, however (working on the scheduler) | 12:23 |
| kanzure | ah | 12:25 |
| kanzure | single giant scheduler for everything? | 12:25 |
| kanzure | eh nevermind, i guess that makes sense | 12:25 |
| kanzure | don't want stuff waiting for freezer access | 12:26 |
| maaku | yeah it's a giant constraint solver | 12:26 |
| maaku | transcriptic batches and overlays different experiments, or different runs of the same experiment | 12:26 |
| maaku | in order to try to use the equipment as efficiently as possible | 12:27 |
| kanzure | also don't want empty capacity.. etc.. | 12:27 |
| maaku | that's what I was working on | 12:27 |
| maaku | so even there i was the token software guy in a bio/machine shop | 12:29 |
| kanzure | haha | 12:29 |
| maaku | although my main contribution was saying "uh, nasa already solved this. you want the software they use for scheduling commands to rovers on Mars and missions to Saturn & Pluto" | 12:31 |
| maaku | which i think is what they're using today | 12:31 |
| kanzure | i thin that most of the transcriptic hardware can be done at home using vlsi: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5220c659e4b06e78a7d06db5/t/522616fce4b0c7ba8d17c3fa/1378227966296/ | 12:33 |
| kanzure | *think | 12:34 |
| maaku | probably | 12:35 |
| maaku | probably | 12:35 |
| jrayhawk | .title http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(14)01737-0/abstract holy shit | 12:35 |
| yoleaux | jrayhawk: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. | 12:35 |
| jrayhawk | .title http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(14)01737-0/abstract | 12:35 |
| maaku | i mean at the time i was there it's not like a huge amount of thought went into the compents they had, just the way they were setup | 12:35 |
| yoleaux | jrayhawk: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 12:35 |
| kanzure | "Administration of a probiotic with peanut oral immunotherapy: A randomized trial" | 12:35 |
| kanzure | "Coadministration of a bacterial adjuvant with oral immunotherapy (OIT) has been suggested as a potential treatment for food allergy." | 12:36 |
| jrayhawk | "Possible sustained unresponsiveness was achieved in 82.1% receiving PPOIT and 3.6% receiving placebo (P < .001)." | 12:36 |
| maaku | i think max took around $50k from the seed money and bought warehouse full of used components from a biolab that was shut down, and that's what the first stuff was built from | 12:36 |
| kanzure | "PPOIT was effective in inducing possible sustained unresponsiveness and immune changes that suggest modulation of the peanut-specific immune response. Further work is required to confirm sustained unresponsiveness after a longer period of secondary peanut elimination and to clarify the relative contributions of probiotics versus OIT." | 12:36 |
| maaku | so it was more like "what can we build with what we got by random chance?" | 12:37 |
| kanzure | ah i ee | 12:37 |
| kanzure | *see | 12:37 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: i wonder why that particular bacteria was chosen | 12:38 |
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| kanzure | "PPOIT was associated with reduced peanut skin prick test responses" | 12:38 |
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| kanzure | welp let's get that into the gut biome | 12:40 |
| jrayhawk | immune suppression isn't inherently beneficial, and PNA is almost certainly inherently pretty awful, so some caution is advised | 12:41 |
| maaku | well in the case where they have severe allegies like penuts, it beats constant risk of dying | 12:42 |
| kanzure | ah if this is generic immune system suppression, hrm | 12:42 |
| jrayhawk | it'd be cool if they could measure unsuccessful colonization to see if that already ridiculous 82.1% number could be made even higher | 12:44 |
| FourFire | maaku, would actually be useful for molecular simulations ? | 13:01 |
| yoleaux | 01:10Z <maaku> FourFire: fuck utility; take what you're interested in college. art history? philosophy? whatever. drop your job as the opportunity cost is too high and self-learn bio-engineering, comp sci, or whatever transhumanist contribution you want to make. establish a reputation by coding. | 13:01 |
| FourFire | http://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/anton-shilov/micron-automata-chips-to-be-used-for-virus-detection-medical-apps-dna-sequencing/ | 13:01 |
| FourFire | "<kanzure> maaku: i suspect the reason why more transhumanists don't do things is because they on average don't have the money to buy any of the cool shit they need, or the cool shit is out of the range of their budgets | 13:02 |
| FourFire | <kanzure> of course, most of these things don't really need to be that expensive anyway" this is why I favour collaboration over hostility and "fuck off" | 13:02 |
| FourFire | Hackerspaces provide better than average opportunity for transhumanists with little to no capital | 13:03 |
| kanzure | that's bullshit, hackerspaces are extremely ineffective and the money doesn't fall out of the sky | 13:05 |
| maaku | FourFire: i'll be back to discuss your question in ~5min | 13:05 |
| FourFire | speaking of biology lab equipment: this guy who works down the hall from my office builds custom lab equipment | 13:05 |
| kanzure | your notion of collaboration suck | 13:06 |
| FourFire | he's also a member of my hackerspace | 13:06 |
| kanzure | *sucks | 13:06 |
| kanzure | collaboration is not "make someone else do my work for me" | 13:06 |
| kanzure | and i reserve the right to be a hostile towards you (or anyone else) as i want | 13:06 |
| FourFire | maaku, I am (fortunately?) directly interested in cellular biology and genetics | 13:11 |
| FourFire | kanzure, I might have implied that, but never stated that as my definition of collaboration | 13:11 |
| FourFire | I will be back in half an hour or so | 13:12 |
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| maaku | .tell FourFire What would actually be useful for molecular simulations is a molecular dynamics code that actually works for drexlarian nanotech. | 13:23 |
| yoleaux | maaku: I'll pass your message to FourFire. | 13:23 |
| maaku | .tell FourFire the stuff we have right now is either focused on biology (protien folding), or the universal stuff which nanoengineer uses is simply so bad as to be non-physical. | 13:23 |
| yoleaux | maaku: I'll pass your message to FourFire. | 13:23 |
| kanzure | it's a shame that people were going to essentially throw away nanoengineer | 13:24 |
| kanzure | i had to rescue it :/ | 13:24 |
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| maaku | kanzure: thanks for that btw | 13:28 |
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| maaku | nanoengineer is a good starting point | 13:29 |
| maaku | it's just using the same shitty molecular dynamics simulator (mm2?) as everyone else | 13:29 |
| maaku | but fix that and it could be useful | 13:29 |
| eudoxia | it's funny because in an interview freitas said he expected it to have thousands of molecular machine parts within a few years ;/ | 13:29 |
| maaku | "it" == nanoengineer? | 13:30 |
| eudoxia | i never could tell any difference between nano-dynamics and the other molecular simulator that it used, so i don't know if that means (1) nanodynamics is actually accurate, to the extent that classical molecular dynamics is accurate, or (2) it didn't actually switch simulation engines | 13:30 |
| eudoxia | maaku: yes | 13:30 |
| maaku | eudoxia: i highly doubt nanodynamics is accurate | 13:30 |
| maaku | they didn't have anyone on their staff that understood the issues | 13:31 |
| eudoxia | maaku: well, "unmaintained molecular dynamics engine written from scratch" doesn't inspire confidence | 13:31 |
| maaku | certainly if it was accurate, that would have been a very publishable accomplishment given its performance | 13:31 |
| maaku | which more likely means it was cutting corners left and right | 13:32 |
| eudoxia | yes | 13:32 |
| eudoxia | occasionally the atoms would shoot off diamond structures with certain surface geometries | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | the hydrogen surface atoms that is | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | never could tell whether that was supposed to happen | 13:34 |
| maaku | lol wat | 13:34 |
| eudoxia | they just flew away and the bonds never snapped | 13:35 |
| maaku | yeah so one giant outstanding problem is to create a performant molecular dynamics simulator that actually works for these sorts of configurations | 13:36 |
| maaku | or, as i am doing, teach a machine to do that | 13:37 |
| kanzure | there are many different molecular dynamics things used by nanoengineer | 13:39 |
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| eudoxia | well, GROMACS sort of works for that kind of stuff | 13:39 |
| eudoxia | and it probably has ok performance since plenty of people use it | 13:40 |
| eudoxia | maaku: i have to say i have mostly dismissed AGI all these years. do you have a reading list of papers/textbooks for building my own personal godlet UFAI? | 13:40 |
| maaku | GROMACS is okay but doesn't scale | 13:40 |
| maaku | eudoxia: I'm about to walk out the door, but i'll put something together | 13:41 |
| maaku | do you have an AI background at all? | 13:41 |
| kanzure | well he has a lisp background, so yes | 13:41 |
| eudoxia | maaku: i've read the PAIP, but mostly for the compiler/pattern matching stuff | 13:41 |
| maaku | hrm. that's an older book | 13:42 |
| maaku | i would start with AIMA: http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/ | 13:42 |
| eudoxia | definitely. it doesn't even cover graph search etc, mostly symbolic stuff like GPS, eliza and a symbolic integrator. | 13:42 |
| maaku | doesn't cover any AGI, but current AI is a strict pre-req | 13:42 |
| maaku | yea that stuff is super old-hat | 13:43 |
| eudoxia | i've had the AIMA in my reading list for a while and it definitely deserves to be higher up there | 13:43 |
| maaku | i'll put some other resources together, but that's a definate starting point | 13:43 |
| maaku | (at least skim the chapters and read the summaries at the end of each) | 13:44 |
| maaku | for AGI, there's the AGI conference proceedings | 13:44 |
| eudoxia | thanks. also, i know goertzel has an AGI textbook, would you recommend that? | 13:44 |
| maaku | i was just about to mention that | 13:45 |
| maaku | http://lesswrong.com/lw/kq4/link_engineering_general_intelligence_the/ | 13:45 |
| maaku | it covers CogPrime which is an approach i'm partial to | 13:46 |
| maaku | i think you'd get more out of it after you've skimmed AIMA though | 13:46 |
| maaku | you can find PDF copies of AIMA online in various places | 13:46 |
| eudoxia | oh, certainly. i should read the AIMA, probably along with a probability textbook, then move on to papers and other books | 13:47 |
| maaku | reading AIMA, a probability text (good idea), and then the AGI conf procedings and Goertzel's latest book would get you an OpenCog-biased but general overview to the field | 13:48 |
| maaku | also you might search youtube for agi conference tutorials -- there were 3-day sessions before the last two conferences where the major AGI architectures were explained | 13:49 |
| maaku | for machine learning, the Ng coarsera course is actually pretty good | 13:49 |
| maaku | ok really got to go, but remind me to turn that into a less haphazard recommendation | 13:50 |
| eudoxia | i did actually take the ML class in 2012, but never really used it (even though at work we do some machine learning stuff) | 13:50 |
| eudoxia | maaku: thanks! | 13:50 |
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| FourFire | I am back | 13:55 |
| yoleaux | 21:23Z <maaku> FourFire: What would actually be useful for molecular simulations is a molecular dynamics code that actually works for drexlarian nanotech. | 13:55 |
| yoleaux | 21:23Z <maaku> FourFire: the stuff we have right now is either focused on biology (protien folding), or the universal stuff which nanoengineer uses is simply so bad as to be non-physical. | 13:55 |
| FourFire | maaku, You seem to be overly focused on my main utility being a brain that could produce code, why is that? | 13:56 |
| maaku | i may be biased because i code. but i didn't get into coding for the computer science. | 13:57 |
| AmbulatoryCortex | do you have other skills? | 13:57 |
| FourFire | why/how would I "establish a reputation by coding" ? | 13:57 |
| AmbulatoryCortex | code is the resource that doesn't require resources other than time | 13:57 |
| AmbulatoryCortex | since you obviously have a computer already | 13:57 |
| maaku | writing code is a way you can leverage your capabilities | 13:58 |
| maaku | but more importantly the results are transmitable | 13:58 |
| FourFire | AmbulatoryCortex, not that I'm aware of, apparently I "speak in a diplomatic way" and have an not so average way of attempting to solve problems, but otherwise my skills are uncharted | 13:58 |
| maaku | you can write code in your dorm room and have some biolab use it, which you can take credit for | 13:58 |
| maaku | but anyway, running out the door. i'll give you a longer explanation later | 13:59 |
| FourFire | yeah I suppose time is the resource I have most of, though I don't want to "drop my job" because I just spent the past year in order to get it | 13:59 |
| FourFire | My job is interesting, causes me to use and develop my skills, and will involve coding at some point, and I will successfully negotiate a significant pay raise in the near future | 14:01 |
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| nmz787 | did I post this already? | 16:05 |
| nmz787 | .title http://www.korg.com/us/news/2015/012212/ | 16:05 |
| yoleaux | KORG INC and Noritake Co., Limited Release Innovative Vacuum Tube: the Nutube | News | KORG | 16:05 |
| chris_99 | intriguing | 16:06 |
| chris_99 | does that mean you can't see it glow though | 16:06 |
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| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgH6X_9N7D4 | 16:39 |
| yoleaux | Teste de controle da pipetadora - YouTube | 16:39 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6CyS06c8tI | 16:40 |
| yoleaux | AlvaBio - Liquid Handler Prototype - YouTube | 16:40 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICd0xJmoino | 16:40 |
| yoleaux | AlvaBio - Liquid Handler - Z axis demo - Nov 2014 - YouTube | 16:40 |
| kanzure | hrm | 16:42 |
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| maaku | critical path | 18:08 |
| yoleaux | 1 Feb 2015 22:05Z <FourFire> maaku: I'll be online in 8 to 9 hours from now | 18:08 |
| yoleaux | 1 Feb 2015 22:05Z <FourFire> maaku: "<FourFire> yeah I suppose time is the resource I have most of, though I don't want to "drop my job" because I just spent the past year in order to get it | 18:08 |
| maaku | gah | 18:08 |
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| maaku | too much rum. we'll see if i'm able to functiopn in 8-9 hours | 18:14 |
| kanzure | knapsack is hard | 18:14 |
| kanzure | i didn't realize bitcoind's solution was "try lots of attempts until something works" | 18:15 |
| maaku | ahaha bitcoin's solution is so weaksauce | 18:15 |
| kanzure | all of the edge cases should be hard coded, i think | 18:16 |
| maaku | well bitcoin's is not horribly broken for what it does | 18:16 |
| kanzure | i am writing my own implementation at the moment | 18:16 |
| maaku | but i wouldn't try to learn any generic knapsack solving tricks from the cod | 18:16 |
| maaku | *code | 18:16 |
| maaku | kanzure: ok. just be careful not to leak wallet informtion by being determinstic | 18:17 |
| kanzure | is it really so bad to just generate all possible solutions? | 18:17 |
| maaku | of a NP-hard problem? yea | 18:17 |
| kanzure | how many solutions are there anyway.. it's bounded by the number of outputs. | 18:17 |
| kanzure | the number and size of outputs | 18:17 |
| maaku | well how much doyou want to scale? | 18:17 |
| kanzure | my solution can take multiple hours | 18:17 |
| kanzure | if necessary | 18:18 |
| maaku | well bitcoin's solution is stupid because it has to take multiple seconds, max, even for lots of outputs | 18:18 |
| kanzure | and a realistic amount of memory (say less than 1 petabyte) would be nice | 18:18 |
| maaku | kanzure: dynamic programming? | 18:20 |
| kanzure | you mean it is required to take less than "a lot of seconds"? | 18:20 |
| kanzure | i don't know what you're asking-- so far i haven't picked an implementation :) | 18:20 |
| kanzure | also i'm trying to figure out if i can pick a subset of the problem such that a closed-form solution is possible | 18:22 |
| kanzure | ideally you should minimize the number of inputs, so i think you can start by just checking 1 input, 2 inputs, ... to a max of n inputs, but realistically you should also be able to skip to the right number of inputs based on something.. er.. | 18:26 |
| kanzure | if there is no {1, 2 or 3}-set that sums to the desired amount then you shouldn't bother checking any of the 3-set-or-lower solutions | 18:27 |
| kanzure | whoops, i mean that sum to the desired amount or greater | 18:27 |
| maaku | you might want to take this to #bitcoin-dev or #bitcoin-wizards, there's a larger segment of wallet authors there | 18:32 |
| kanzure | i said some things in #bitcoin a few minutes ago | 18:32 |
| maaku | i mean yes, that would work, but i think there are faster algorithms that will give nearly as good results | 18:34 |
| kanzure | i'm not aware of how well-studied (or not) this problem is | 18:35 |
| maaku | well it is of a category of well studied problems | 18:36 |
| maaku | annoyingly it's not actually the knapsack problem | 18:37 |
| maaku | but some sort of variant of it | 18:37 |
| kanzure | known variant? | 18:38 |
| kanzure | oh brother, people publish papers about simple solutions like this? http://cs.brown.edu/people/betsy/HGN_ECAI14.pdf | 18:40 |
| maaku | it's a 0-1 change-making problem | 18:41 |
| maaku | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change-making_problem | 18:41 |
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| kanzure | hmm the convolution method is interesting. you could use an internal intermediate target amount, and then solve the problem from there. but this would leak lots and lots of privacy. | 18:43 |
| kanzure | (you don't have to expose that solution on the blockchain of course, it's just an intermediate record-keeping trick) | 18:44 |
| maaku | also slightly variant of the standard change-making problem because you can overshoot | 18:44 |
| maaku | .title https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~shallit/Papers/change2.pdf | 18:48 |
| yoleaux | maaku: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 18:48 |
| maaku | oh darn | 18:48 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: isn't this your job. you're the mathematician around here. | 18:49 |
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| maaku | sipa is probably a good person to ask too | 18:51 |
| kanzure | i think it's even a variant of the change-making problem, because you can select the denominations from the set of available denominations | 18:51 |
| maaku | well i was thinking the denominations == what you happen to have in your walle | 18:55 |
| maaku | and 0-1 because you can only use and output once | 18:55 |
| kanzure | merkle-hellman public key cryptography was knapsack? http://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.3740.pdf | 19:22 |
| maaku | kanzure: is this a credible critique? http://chronopause.com/chronopause.com/index.php/2011/05/29/a-visit-to-alcor/index.html | 19:24 |
| kanzure | chronopause tends to be extremely reasonable | 19:27 |
| kanzure | max more is awesome, and can be convinced of any good idea | 19:27 |
| kanzure | also: i haven't actually read this page | 19:27 |
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| kanzure | hmm it definitely looks like there's no concept of process improvement at alcor | 19:33 |
| kanzure | that's unfortunate | 19:35 |
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| kanzure | "There was, in fact, a strong aversion to marketing cryonics as an ordinary product, or even as a “regular” medical treatment. A consequence of this attitude was that everyone who interfaced with the public, until shortly before I left, had an almost fanatical attitude about how signing up should be communicated to the member. The interesting, and indeed remarkable thing about this is that I do not ever recall doing any training or ... | 19:42 |
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| kanzure | ... any scripting of how to handle callers who were prospective members, or who were gathering information for same. It was just something that was “organic” and a part of Alcor’s small, but very well defined corporate culture at that time." | 19:42 |
| kanzure | ah that is very interesting. also explains why i do not see evidence of product improvement. | 19:42 |
| kanzure | i wonder if there is a reasonable business to be had in pet cryonics (get them to half-life age and then freeze 'em, resuscitate 20-30 years later) | 19:47 |
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| kanzure | would be a pretty awesome troll parent thing to do ("i lied about fluffy") | 19:57 |
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| gwillen | kanzure: that's an amusing thought but depends on the 'thawing' part of the equation existing | 20:27 |
| gwillen | which it does not, and as far as I know is not even within remote reach at our current level of technology | 20:27 |
| kanzure | we can thaw rabbit brain | 20:30 |
| kanzure | and also, we could do selection experiments on neonates | 20:30 |
| kanzure | to make a population that is cryopreservable | 20:31 |
| gwillen | that seems pretty out there | 20:31 |
| * gwillen googles rabbit brain experiements | 20:31 | |
| kanzure | well this is the extra-strange part of irc, after all | 20:31 |
| gwillen | oh I don't doubt it | 20:31 |
| gwillen | I'm not seeing any cryopreservation of whole, intact rabbit brains with subsequent reanimation | 20:32 |
| gwillen | can you link me to same if it exists? | 20:32 |
| kanzure | Mundth, E.D; (1965) Cryobiology 2(2):62-7 | 20:33 |
| kanzure | hmm there's another one though] | 20:33 |
| kanzure | gwillen: the table on page 3 http://imsear.li.mahidol.ac.th/bitstream/123456789/134785/1/jiafm2007v29i3p10.pdf | 20:34 |
| kanzure | haha holy crap yes "Kidneys perfused and cooled to minus 50 degree centigrade, DMSO used. Out of 37 kidneys treated, four supported life long term in dog after other kidney was removed. (9)" | 20:35 |
| gwillen | huh, neat | 20:35 |
| gwillen | so we don't have any "organ cryopreserved, stored for a long time (i.e. a year or more) and then tested for actual in-vitro function" | 20:36 |
| kanzure | not for human afaik | 20:36 |
| gwillen | and we don't have any "whole brain cryopreserved and then tested for actual in-vitro function" | 20:36 |
| gwillen | well, not for anything | 20:37 |
| gwillen | the kidneys were not stored long-term | 20:37 |
| gwillen | they were just cooled and then thawed IIRC | 20:37 |
| gwillen | I could be wrong about this | 20:37 |
| gwillen | but we have things that suggest we should be starting to try those things, anyway | 20:37 |
| gwillen | and that we might succeed at least occasionally if we did | 20:37 |
| kanzure | indeed, we should be trying those things | 20:38 |
| kanzure | also it would be helpful if selling human organs was doable | 20:38 |
| kanzure | because you could build up a reserve | 20:38 |
| gwillen | (sorry, we have "kidneys stored for a year", but those kidneys were not then used in live animals; and we have "kidneys cooled, then used in live animals", but not after long-term storage) | 20:38 |
| kanzure | ahead of organ demand | 20:38 |
| * gwillen nods | 20:38 | |
| kanzure | i think that even if modern-day cryonics does not work that we should be working on selecting populations of important organisms (humans, pets, whatever) for those members of the population that are capable of freezing, thawing and surviving | 20:41 |
| nmz787 | .title https://cfdandheattransfer.wordpress.com/category/cfd-softwares/ | 20:41 |
| yoleaux | CFD Softwares | CFD and Heat Transfer | 20:41 |
| kanzure | so that in a few generations even if we totally fail now, we will have a population that can be freeze stored indefinitely if necessary | 20:42 |
| nmz787 | .title http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/CAD_to_FEniCS_example | 20:42 |
| yoleaux | CAD to FEniCS example - Wikiversity | 20:42 |
| nmz787 | .title http://fenicsproject.org/documentation/dolfin/1.0.1/python/demo/pde/navier-stokes/python/documentation.html | 20:42 |
| yoleaux | 6. Incompressible Navier-Stokes equations — FEniCS Project | 20:42 |
| kanzure | and also, the genetic differences between pets that are capable of cryopreservation and cryoresuscitation could be analyzed to determine likely gene modifications to enable human cryopreservation | 20:43 |
| gwillen | kanzure: I suspect those sorts of selection programs are thoroughly uninteresting to most people who are interested in cryopreservation | 20:43 |
| gwillen | since most people are probably most interested in preserving themselves | 20:43 |
| gwillen | and thus cannot benefit | 20:43 |
| kanzure | this should be a thing that people are doing, although i don't blame them for seeking shorter-term solutions (it is not fun to think that only 3-4 generations from now will be cryonically storable.... missing the boat and such) | 20:43 |
| kanzure | right... i agree... but here's the thing, in exchange for being basically fucking immortal, you can buy into very wealthy families :P | 20:44 |
| kanzure | s/buy/sell | 20:44 |
| kanzure | like, the compensation for not being immortal is the massive amount of money there | 20:44 |
| kanzure | and possibly using that money to fix things | 20:44 |
| kanzure | (e.g. it is feasible that those human generations can happen within a single human lifetime, enough to fund longevity research for the very old of us that get left over) | 20:45 |
| kanzure | (from before the breeding program) | 20:45 |
| kanzure | have i mentioned that this is the crazy part of irc | 20:45 |
| kanzure | also, hi, how did you get here? | 20:45 |
| nmz787 | friggin arduino for $2.88 shipped, yes thx. | 20:46 |
| * kanzure registers a trademark for "the indefinite bishop family trust" | 20:48 | |
| pasky | nmz787: where from? | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nano-V3-0-ATmega328P-Improve-Controller-Board-XTWduino-USB-Driver-For-Arduino-/391000702325? | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | post FTDI-gate USB-chip cost reduction I guess | 20:49 |
| pasky | nice | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | the CH340 chip | 20:50 |
| nmz787 | $0.20-0.40 each | 20:50 |
| pasky | they ship worldwide... except EU, Africa, Asia, Japan, Australia... | 20:52 |
| nmz787 | lol | 20:52 |
| pasky | so they basically ship to the americas only | 20:53 |
| pasky | weird | 20:53 |
| pasky | and not to some southern american states either, though they do ship to mexico and brazil | 20:53 |
| pasky | weird | 20:53 |
| gwillen | kanzure: I come from the bitcoin lands | 20:58 |
| gwillen | I followed one of them bitcoiners in here | 20:58 |
| kanzure | cool | 20:58 |
| gwillen | I'm pretty sure I've seen you over there in the bitcoin lands | 20:59 |
| kanzure | indeed! see pm | 20:59 |
| kanzure | hm | 21:03 |
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| sheena | paperbot Jonathan J. Cooper, Nina Cracknell, Jessica Hardiman, Hannah Wright, Daniel Mills. The Welfare Consequences and Efficacy of Training Pet Dogs with Remote Electronic Training Collars in Comparison to Reward Based Training. PLoS ONE, 2014; 9 (9): e102722 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0102722 | 22:33 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102722 | 22:35 |
| -!- paperbot [~paperbot@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/paperbot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:36 | |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=b90dc5b3 Fernando Borretti: Style fixes to the paperbot module | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=0aa1b19a Fernando Borretti: Partial PEP8 fixes to modules.papers | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=ddadbfd9 Fernando Borretti: Remove trailing whitespace from modules.scihub | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=bef115ac Fernando Borretti: Fix multiple statements in one line in modules.scihub | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=298fecb3 Fernando Borretti: Partial style fixes to modules.scihub | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=af49632c Fernando Borretti: Style fixes to the unit tests | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=f688b72e Fernando Borretti: Some line length fixes to modules.papers | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=726ceb78 Fernando Borretti: Remove large chunks of commented-out code from modules.papers | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=d006231a Fernando Borretti: Shorten some lines | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=f28b1eb1 Fernando Borretti: Finish cleaning up modules.scihub | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=529829cc Fernando Borretti: Clean up paperbot.storage | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=58276e3b Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #39 from eudoxia0/pep8-fixes | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=f5b30c3e Bryan Bishop: libgen.org -> libgen.info | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=b7f8407d Bryan Bishop: disable plsget proxy? | 22:39 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=9312c05d Bryan Bishop: Merge remote-tracking branch 'diyhplus/master' | 22:39 |
| gnusha | paperbot: reload papers | 22:39 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0102722 | 22:40 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/69290bf5bd0795c175a60742ce83bb8e.txt | 22:40 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0102722&representation=PDF | 22:41 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9c546b1afddfd6ba3cbd025a68b0dff.pdf | 22:41 |
| kanzure | sheena: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9c546b1afddfd6ba3cbd025a68b0dff.pdf | 22:41 |
| sheena | ty | 22:42 |
| kanzure | .to eudoxia paperbot works again thank you | 22:44 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: I'll pass your message to eudoxia. | 22:44 |
| nmz787 | is that proxy no longer being used then? | 22:57 |
| nmz787 | I've been getting $1 amazon bills from requests to it I think | 22:57 |
| nmz787 | "The War Food Administration has announced the adoption of measures to prevent the abuse of certain provisions of War Food Order 13 with regard to the prescription of heavy cream for use in the treatment of the sick. On June 2, an amendment to the Order was issued which requires that prescriptions for heavy cream be approved "by the public health officer, or the secretary of the county medical society, of the municipality or county" where ... | 23:04 |
| nmz787 | ... the patient or hospital desiring the cream is situated." | 23:04 |
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| nmz787 | .tell delinquentme $1.21 RTC with per-day +- ~0.5second accuracy http://www.ebay.com/itm/IIC-Precision-RTC-Real-Time-Clock-Memory-Module-For-Arduino-DS3231-AT24C32-/251401815796?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a88b746f4 | 23:17 |
| yoleaux | nmz787: I'll pass your message to delinquentme. | 23:17 |
| nmz787 | .tell delinquentme this might also be interesting, not aware of an good-for-time arduino-receiver yet though (maybe any GPS module?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_clock | 23:23 |
| yoleaux | nmz787: I'll pass your message to delinquentme. | 23:23 |
| nmz787 | huh, plosONE comments http://www.plosone.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=81795 | 23:34 |
| nmz787 | .title | 23:34 |
| yoleaux | PLOS ONE : accelerating the publication of peer-reviewed science | 23:35 |
| nmz787 | sheena: ^ | 23:35 |
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| bellow | Hello | 23:37 |
| bellow | I am trying to reconnect my Magnavox MBP 5120 blu-ray player to my Linksys routers wifi (which I have done before without trouble) and I am getting DHCP cannot be acquired. I have change the IP Address to manual on the blu-ray player without changing the IP address itself and no error. I have checked the routers settings and DHCP is enabled. Is the | 23:37 |
| bellow | re a way to fix this? I had it connected just fine so I added the ip/mac address to the DHCP Reservation think that would help it did not. | 23:37 |
| nmz787 | wrong room | 23:37 |
| bellow | there is no right one | 23:38 |
| nmz787 | if you are using DHCP, then do not manually set the IP on the player | 23:38 |
| nmz787 | bellow: #networking | 23:39 |
| bellow | networking is no help | 23:40 |
| bellow | It ios not set like that | 23:40 |
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| nmz787 | http://theinstituteoffluorescence.com/PDF/10%20Chris%20Pub.pdf | 23:44 |
| nmz787 | "The past two decades have seen the rapid growth of fluorescence spectroscopy. This has been partly due to the development of new light sources, i.e. the transformation from nanosecond flash lamps to picosecond dye lasers or femtosecond Ti:sapphire lasers, as well as the realization that much more information is contained in and can be extracted from a fluorescence decay. The expansion of fluorescence has also been helped by the race for ... | 23:45 |
| nmz787 | ... the humane genome, where prior to 1985, most DNA sequencing was performed using radioactive labels (Lakowicz 1999). Since that time, sequencing has been accomplished almost exclusively using new carefully designed fluorescent probes." | 23:45 |
| bellow | I am trying to reconnect my Magnavox MBP 5120 blu-ray player to my Linksys routers wifi (which I have done before without trouble) and I am getting DHCP cannot be acquired. I have change the IP Address to manual on the blu-ray player without changing the IP address itself and no error. I have checked the routers settings and DHCP is enabled. Is the | 23:51 |
| bellow | re a way to fix this? I had it connected just fine so I added the ip/mac address to the DHCP Reservation think that would help it did not. | 23:51 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Feb 02 00:00:27 2015 | ||
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