| --- Log opened Thu Feb 12 00:00:52 2015 | ||
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| archels | 'microwave illumination', such a gentle way of putting it | 01:33 |
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| archels | ParahSailin: still no reply on that pipette thing, you're going to have to enlighten us | 03:35 |
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| ParahSailin | misunderstood the problem | 05:38 |
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| heath | http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20150016777 | 07:01 |
| heath | https://www.google.com/patents/US20130128230?dq=magic+leap&hl=en&sa=X&ei=N77cVKaiI8qZNqLKgegC&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA | 07:03 |
| heath | https://www.google.com/patents/US20130125027 | 07:04 |
| heath | and more but the query is there in the second link for anyone who cares | 07:04 |
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| kanzure | hmm | 07:38 |
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| * Guest35585 presents every multiplayer networked game as prior art | 08:07 | |
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| * heath wants a cross platform AR framework | 09:29 | |
| nmz787_i | heath, for the parrot drone? | 09:32 |
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| heath | nmz787_i: no | 09:42 |
| heath | an experimental game | 09:42 |
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| nmz787_i | openBCI would be $12.50/board for 100 boards assembled, not including component BOM (which I assume would be $15-$40)... so my guess is ~$50 per board, plus electrodes would be ~$90 | 10:19 |
| kanzure | hahaha these guys have a pop-up asking the user to invest in their company https://trubrain.com/products/drinks | 10:53 |
| kanzure | isn't that illegal | 10:53 |
| kanzure | pretty sure solicitation is illegal | 10:53 |
| kanzure | 11:15 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, http://www.sec.gov/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539707782 | 11:22 |
| kanzure | .title | 11:22 |
| yoleaux | SEC.gov | SEC Approves JOBS Act Requirement to Lift General Solicitation Ban | 11:22 |
| ParahSailin | yeah not really | 11:28 |
| kanzure | hm? | 11:29 |
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| ParahSailin | the sec didnt significantly change any rules | 11:47 |
| kanzure | v. confused. solicitation yes/no? | 11:47 |
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| ParahSailin | solicitation no | 13:01 |
| ParahSailin | unfortunate goatse logo http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/11/uber-for-massage-soothe/?ncid=rss&cps=gravity_1462_-7112612496890880976 | 13:02 |
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| maaku | do I dare click that link... | 13:06 |
| maaku | ParahSailin: i think the fact that those hands are gripping the boobs of the woman in the background, and there are big boobies to the right means no one will make that connection ;) | 13:07 |
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| nmz787_i | jrayhawk: kanzure maybe this for monitors? http://hackaday.com/2015/02/12/building-things-with-lean-pipe/ | 13:35 |
| ParahSailin | looks like that stuff would be hard to get outside of the eu | 13:38 |
| kanzure | we should all move to russia | 13:44 |
| kanzure | into one of those spacious abandoned supercolliders | 13:44 |
| maaku | kanzure: there's one of those in Texas, no? | 13:45 |
| kanzure | we can all adopt hilarious soviet names, i can be comrade bishoff.. wait.... | 13:45 |
| maaku | "spacious" and "abandoned" describes most of russia i think | 13:45 |
| maaku | we should totally turn the SSC into a hobo city | 13:45 |
| kanzure | +1 maaku for vice president of nefarious plots | 13:46 |
| maaku | :) | 13:46 |
| kanzure | and other plottery | 13:46 |
| jrayhawk | nmz787_i: Neat. | 13:56 |
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| justanotheruser | you guys ever do DIY medical treatment? | 16:44 |
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| justanotheruser | I probably will try to stitch myself next time I need stitches | 16:44 |
| AmbulatoryCortex | That sounds like a good way to get some interesting scars | 16:45 |
| AmbulatoryCortex | or lose a limb | 16:45 |
| AmbulatoryCortex | y'know, whatever | 16:45 |
| justanotheruser | if I do it as good as the doctors, I don't think so | 16:45 |
| AmbulatoryCortex | That's a pretty big if | 16:46 |
| justanotheruser | yeah, I can probably only do it as good as a really bad new doctor | 16:46 |
| justanotheruser | and by new I mean never stitched a person before | 16:47 |
| nmz787_i | yup | 16:48 |
| nmz787_i | i patched up an axe wound about a month and a half ago | 16:48 |
| nmz787_i | on a friend | 16:48 |
| nmz787_i | didn't have a good needle though, only sterile suture thread | 16:49 |
| nmz787_i | amazon has flesh staplers though so I probably should get one of those | 16:49 |
| nmz787_i | when my wisdom teeth were coming in when i was 20 I took a scalpel to my gums and slashed them a bit, my thought was that o | 16:50 |
| nmz787_i | i'd either kill the nerves sooner than the teeth would naturally, or that I'd increase my pain tolerance faster so they wouldn't feel such a nuisance | 16:50 |
| nmz787_i | then I also elected to eat baby carrots using that part of my mouth, to try and effect the same thing (boost pain tolerance and smash the gums to death) | 16:51 |
| nmz787_i | i took a wilderness first responder class about 9 years ago though, so we learned a bunch of stuff over like 3 or 5 days, including how to pull traction on a broken femur/leg and split it with like tree branches... how to make makeshift litters to carry people out of the back-country, etc | 16:52 |
| nmz787_i | i've also operated on animals a few times for classes (monoclonal antibody production) | 16:54 |
| bci | https://techcrunch.com/2015/02/12/nootropics-arent-just-for-tech-millionaires/ | 16:59 |
| bci | Projecting forward, we think the next natural step is that nootropics will be mainstream. They’ll be found in your local corner store next to Red Bull and next to your office espresso machine. <= more likely they'll try to ban nootropics and sell your their own waterered down redbull equivalents | 16:59 |
| bci | http://www.theonion.com/articles/adderall-receives-honorary-degree-from-harvard,17527/ | 17:00 |
| kanzure | that article is full of crap, see hacker news comments so that i don't have to persuade you | 17:04 |
| kanzure | also the title is obviously inflammatory and bullshit and you should feel bad for being tricked into downloading anything with that sort of title | 17:04 |
| kanzure | (for example: does it pass the simplest possible test? "are nootropics only for millionaires?" "hmm") | 17:05 |
| kanzure | actually, get out | 17:05 |
| bci | fairly ridic but it is techcrunch | 17:05 |
| kanzure | why would you read techcrunch man | 17:05 |
| kanzure | argh | 17:05 |
| bci | oh in this case i'm just watching how the MSM is going to bend the public perception on noots | 17:06 |
| nmz787_i | bci: are you involved in openBCI? | 17:06 |
| bci | no | 17:06 |
| justanotheruser | nmz787_i: why didn't he go to a hospital? Just because it's cheap? | 17:07 |
| bci | this is about the point they make a sales pitch or build a case against it to the public | 17:07 |
| justanotheruser | lel techcrunch Attackers might be trying to steal your information from techcrunch.com (for example, passwords, messages, or credit cards). | 17:07 |
| nmz787_i | justanotheruser: no insurance, walk-in clinic wanted like $300 just to even take a look... | 17:07 |
| nmz787_i | wal-greens had the super-glue and alcohol and bandage strips for prob like $15 or $20 | 17:08 |
| nmz787_i | err, iodine I guess, and he actually had that | 17:09 |
| justanotheruser | Heh | 17:10 |
| bci | http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/12/researchers-make-blood-vessels-grow-shining-light-skin?rss=1 | 17:10 |
| nmz787_i | similar case for when I had some ringworm... they wanted $300 not including the meds... ebay had the WHO-approved brand for like $50 and I didn't even have to get off my ass | 17:11 |
| bci | we should be downloading our healthcare by now | 17:11 |
| fenn | make sure to get wound-glue not regular super glue | 17:11 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: yeah he had some irritation after the second week | 17:12 |
| * bci prints out RGD peptide hydrogel for nmz787 | 17:12 | |
| nmz787_i | fenn: is there any UV-curable wound-glue? | 17:12 |
| fenn | "ouch there's an axe in my eye!" | 17:12 |
| fenn | minor irritation | 17:12 |
| justanotheruser | bci: are you phm | 17:12 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: I found some stuff for making fishing lures,etc... seems like it'd be great in a dire emergency | 17:12 |
| bci | no | 17:12 |
| fenn | loctite now sells "ultragel" which may or may not be the same thing | 17:13 |
| nmz787_i | bci: where can I buy some though? | 17:13 |
| fenn | i wonder why it took 50 years to come up with tougher superglue | 17:13 |
| kanzure | bci: the public can screw off | 17:13 |
| bci | that'd be nice, honestly i haven't looked | 17:13 |
| kanzure | bci: why should you care what they think | 17:13 |
| kanzure | hmm you seem to read the news a lot | 17:13 |
| kanzure | you should stop | 17:14 |
| nmz787_i | http://solarez.com/ | 17:14 |
| bci | <kanzure> bci: why should you care what they think <- "If you don't develop a strategy of your own, you become a part of someone else's strategy." | 17:14 |
| kanzure | yes.. so stop reading the news | 17:14 |
| justanotheruser | are many nootropics worth it? | 17:14 |
| bci | yeh, i get your point there for sure | 17:14 |
| nmz787_i | they don't sell it for med applications at all, but if you were bleeding out this shit seems like it would patch over in a pinch... who cares about irritation at that point | 17:14 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: how long is a string? | 17:15 |
| justanotheruser | In my experience, they have marginal benefits at best | 17:15 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: didn't you find a drug that was working for you? | 17:15 |
| bci | but if they cut off a supply line, i'd like to know early enough to prepare a new one | 17:15 |
| kanzure | you were just asking me the other day about it | 17:15 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: yes | 17:15 |
| kanzure | so why are you asking that question | 17:15 |
| kanzure | aaaaaa | 17:15 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: because I'm curious about the space | 17:15 |
| kanzure | but you already know the answer? | 17:15 |
| justanotheruser | no | 17:16 |
| kanzure | (i am shooting death rays from my eye sockets at you right now) | 17:16 |
| justanotheruser | I said many because I know stimulants like coffee and adderall work for me | 17:16 |
| fenn | have you tested yourself objectively? | 17:16 |
| justanotheruser | all the other stuff, fish oil, piracetam, etc don't | 17:16 |
| fenn | or is it just "i like adderall, it makes me feel good" | 17:17 |
| justanotheruser | It's not objective, but it's more like "I like adderall, I can focus easily on it" | 17:17 |
| kanzure | "i like adderall, i don't go an entire day without forming a coherent sentence" | 17:17 |
| justanotheruser | caffeine has a similar effect, but only when I take enough that I feel bad | 17:17 |
| fenn | vinpocetine and ginkgo go well with caffeine | 17:18 |
| fenn | wait why am i participating in this conversation | 17:18 |
| kanzure | you were tricked | 17:18 |
| kanzure | we all were | 17:19 |
| * fenn snorts some ginkgo | 17:19 | |
| fenn | there now i'm smart enough not to get trolled | 17:19 |
| * bci looks around for biohackers | 17:19 | |
| kanzure | bci: troll harder | 17:19 |
| bci | well | 17:20 |
| bci | those are barely nootropics | 17:20 |
| bci | adderall is more neurotoxic than it is nootropic | 17:20 |
| kanzure | yes, nothing meets my requirements: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/nootropics/minimally-viable-nootropic/ | 17:20 |
| bci | try some NSI-189, magnesium l-threonate and dimethylglycine (1-2gram dose) | 17:21 |
| justanotheruser | what software does the wiki use? | 17:22 |
| kanzure | piny, ikiwiki, git, cgit | 17:22 |
| bci | degenerative<------>generative | 17:22 |
| kanzure | your diagram is beautiful, bci | 17:22 |
| kanzure | are you a redditor | 17:22 |
| kanzure | i bet you are a redditor | 17:22 |
| fenn | .wik NSI-189 | 17:22 |
| bci | heh no | 17:23 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. | 17:23 |
| kanzure | hm you're not in that channel | 17:23 |
| kanzure | yeah i would have kicked you out | 17:23 |
| justanotheruser | Yes, ikiwiki looks to be what I like | 17:23 |
| bci | well thats good news | 17:23 |
| bci | :) | 17:23 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: front page of wiki has instructions for contributing, use git | 17:23 |
| justanotheruser | Hopefully I can try to catch up, but all I know about is Bitcoin | 17:24 |
| kanzure | what? | 17:24 |
| kanzure | you seem to know other things | 17:25 |
| kanzure | are you a different justanotheruser ? | 17:25 |
| justanotheruser | I can't evaluate that | 17:25 |
| justanotheruser | All I know is Bitcoin | 17:25 |
| fenn | he's sending out fluff camouflage statements to increase his anonymity quotient | 17:25 |
| justanotheruser | In terms of topics usually discussed in this channel, the only thing I would be able to contribute is Bitcoin related AFAICS | 17:26 |
| justanotheruser | but it looks like all the commits are bitcoin related as of recent | 17:29 |
| justanotheruser | and then there was that marcov bot | 17:29 |
| fenn | bci: why DMG instead of just choline? | 17:39 |
| bci | choline is good too | 17:41 |
| bci | its just that particular stack is going to give you the best bang for your buck w/ the NSI-189 | 17:42 |
| bci | dmg increases methylation | 17:42 |
| bci | during that first month dose of nsi-189 when you're experiencing the most neurogenesis | 17:43 |
| bci | the increased methylation will help with the biogenesis of new dna/rna and neurotransmitters | 17:43 |
| bci | you sort of bliss out into a new field of happiness | 17:43 |
| bci | its also fairly ergogenic | 17:44 |
| fenn | is NSI-189 even something one could acquire without having a lab synthesize it? | 17:46 |
| bci | its out there | 17:46 |
| fenn | as "NSI-189"? | 17:46 |
| bci | yeh | 17:47 |
| bci | just have to look around rly | 17:47 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: solarez is about 1.5x the cost of makerjuice and isn't colored and has very few options | 17:51 |
| ebowden | You can get NSI-189. | 17:52 |
| ebowden | Oh, nevermind. | 17:54 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: makerjuice is also UV-curable? | 17:54 |
| bci | lowest price i remember seeing was in the 40-50USD range | 17:54 |
| ebowden | They don't stock it anymore. But it's not too difficult a synth. | 17:54 |
| bci | but i've seen price gauging from 80-120USD | 17:54 |
| bci | i see some currently on ebay at 80 | 17:55 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: I wonder if makerjuice is also adhesive though | 17:55 |
| bci | but ja alot of the regular spots seem to be tapped out atm | 17:55 |
| fenn | i'm trying to remember the name of the blue light cure resin supplier... thought it was camptown plastics but i'm not finding anything | 17:56 |
| fenn | resin prices went up in 2014, according to the makerjuice blog | 17:57 |
| fenn | "all of our resins, cures under UV A, B, and C light up to around 420nm. You can cure it with a DLP projector, a UV laser, or UV leds. " | 17:58 |
| fenn | hmm there's a $22 quart of solarez on ebay | 18:02 |
| heath | https://github.com/ryanss/vim-hackernews | 18:03 |
| fenn | i think it wouldn't work right for 3d printers without adding a uv-absorbing dye to limit the depth of cure | 18:04 |
| nmz787_i | but none of them do that now anyway really | 18:04 |
| nmz787_i | they do it based on focal point | 18:04 |
| fenn | "The sun or artificial UV light will cure whatever areas of resin are exposed to the UV radiation and the resin will rapidly cure and gently exotherm, warming and accelerating the other shadowed areas that are bathed in the mildly catalyzed resin." | 18:04 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: not true, there's no way they could get prints with such high quality without a dye | 18:05 |
| fenn | it's not two-photon | 18:05 |
| fenn | i mean, that would be an interesting thing to do (high power green laser?) but i don't think anyone is doing that now | 18:06 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: most of them project through the resin | 18:06 |
| nmz787_i | i.e. the formlabs | 18:06 |
| nmz787_i | i always assumed solids simply accumulated in the resin bath the longer you used it | 18:07 |
| heath | .title http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journal/v8/n12/full/nphoton.2014.251.html | 18:13 |
| yoleaux | Time-reversed adapted-perturbation (TRAP) optical focusing onto dynamic objects inside scattering media : Nature Photonics : Nature Publishing Group | 18:13 |
| heath | http://live.iop-pp01.agh.sleek.net/physicsworld/reader/#!edition/editions_medical-2015/article/page-5896 | 18:13 |
| heath | .title | 18:13 |
| yoleaux | Physics World | 18:13 |
| heath | "Current and future imaging trends" | 18:14 |
| justanotheruser | paperbot: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1132867 | 18:14 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F1132863.1132867 | 18:14 |
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| justanotheruser | paperbot: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1132867 | 18:20 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F1132863.1132867 | 18:20 |
| justanotheruser | damnit paperbot that link 404s | 18:20 |
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| heath | for those needing some love in their life: http://crockpotveggies.com/2015/02/09/automating-tinder-with-eigenfaces.html | 18:31 |
| heath | guess that's almost off topic | 18:33 |
| bci | rly there should be more research into sexual attraction biohacks | 18:33 |
| bci | http://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138%2810%2900116-9/abstract | 18:34 |
| bci | exploiting the carrot juice to pussy ratio | 18:34 |
| bci | http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/xge-139-3-399.pdf | 18:42 |
| fenn | "you seem to like people who smile" | 18:42 |
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| fenn | "lean pipe" is a wimpy version of speed rail: http://www.hollaender.com/?page=speedrail | 18:47 |
| fenn | also if you just want 3 monitors it's much easier to use a swing arm mount | 18:48 |
| fenn | something something fence post | 18:48 |
| fenn | i like the knock-off metro shelving at target | 18:49 |
| fenn | i've put a lot of heavy machine tool crap on them, so i see no reason to get the acutal metro brand shelving (which has a higher weight limit) | 18:52 |
| fenn | roughly $1/ft^3 of shelving ($50 for 6 foot tall 5-shelf version) | 18:54 |
| kanzure | is this still about smiling? | 18:54 |
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| fenn | smiling was the tinder bot eigenface thing | 18:54 |
| kanzure | i'm not hearing no | 18:55 |
| bci | https://i.imgur.com/5U371r9.png | 18:56 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: pasted a link about "lean pipe" 5 hours ago... | 18:56 |
| fenn | s/:// | 18:56 |
| fenn | i'm actually curious what's supporting those touchscreen control panels | 18:57 |
| fenn | i like the dual isogrid wall | 18:58 |
| bci | mm | 18:58 |
| fenn | .title http://youtu.be/y41sd-haRR8 | 18:59 |
| yoleaux | Automated Composite Isogrid Fabrication - YouTube | 18:59 |
| fenn | regular isogrid can use continuous tension elements, but you have to weave them and they bunch up where they overlap, so you probably want to do "quarter isogrid" if using carbon fiber or pre-cut beams | 19:00 |
| fenn | int he video they have a small triangle-shaped offset at the vertices to prevent the overlap from bunching up too much | 19:01 |
| fenn | sorry that was a terrible video | 19:04 |
| fenn | .title http://youtu.be/iODb_hJL9eE | 19:08 |
| yoleaux | AI Robotic Layup Heads for Isogrid Panels - YouTube | 19:08 |
| fenn | http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/v2_seats.jpg | 19:12 |
| kanzure | pfft | 19:13 |
| fenn | hey it's shiny | 19:13 |
| kanzure | i've been thinking about hiring an organic chemist | 19:13 |
| fenn | do it | 19:13 |
| kanzure | that's lousy advice | 19:14 |
| fenn | well i have a 50% chance of being right | 19:15 |
| nmz787_i | i know a guy who might work | 19:15 |
| nmz787_i | chem engi | 19:15 |
| nmz787_i | he has actually come in here a few times | 19:16 |
| nmz787_i | i think using random names though | 19:16 |
| nmz787_i | not too often | 19:16 |
| fenn | i'm pretty sure all of spacex design inspiration comes from mass effect 2 | 19:17 |
| kanzure | fuck now you got nathan excited | 19:17 |
| kanzure | here comes the message spam | 19:17 |
| nmz787_i | fenn that beefy lean pipe doesn't have pricing though :/ | 19:18 |
| kanzure | "hey man why don't you dump $500k into this hole of misery" | 19:18 |
| kanzure | (not seen: messages off screen) | 19:18 |
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| kanzure | nmz787_i: we still have some rather fundamental engineering differences | 19:19 |
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| nmz787_i | everyone is different | 19:20 |
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| nmz787_i | not sure why you're mentioning that though | 19:20 |
| nmz787_i | I am no chemist to be hired. | 19:20 |
| kanzure | "everyone is different" is irrelevant | 19:20 |
| kanzure | it means i am less likely to analyze your ideas because there are lots of known biases that i need to account for | 19:21 |
| kanzure | the more biases i need to correct for the more trouble it is to bother | 19:21 |
| nmz787_i | ok, I didn't know my differences made me less valuable. | 19:21 |
| kanzure | what else could possibly make anyone less valuable? | 19:22 |
| nmz787_i | being an idiot | 19:22 |
| kanzure | that's not a difference? | 19:22 |
| nmz787_i | differences can be more valuable in some cases. | 19:22 |
| kanzure | if you worked on a project that had microfeatures but did not have valves would you be mortally crippled? | 19:24 |
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| nmz787_i | no, the second to last microfluidic model I made had no valves | 19:24 |
| nmz787_i | (also got a guy that could handle some HF operations) | 19:25 |
| kanzure | i was not aware that you would be okay with that | 19:26 |
| nmz787_i | yeah man, I just don't think it's as interesting or potentially awesome in the long-run... but I am OK with it. | 19:28 |
| nmz787_i | or maybe that I think there are other things that need worked on at the same time, and have been thinking of those things moreso. | 19:28 |
| kanzure | fenn would be extremely upset if i told him no hexagons | 19:29 |
| nmz787_i | hexagons for? | 19:30 |
| kanzure | that's the symbol sowed on to his cape | 19:30 |
| fenn | have you accepted the hexagon as your one true saviour? | 19:31 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: checkout these https://github.com/nmz787/python-brlcad-tcl/tree/master/examples | 19:32 |
| fenn | why | 19:33 |
| kanzure | because he doesn't want to write a parser generator | 19:33 |
| nmz787_i | any opinions? | 19:33 |
| kanzure | or learn tcl | 19:33 |
| nmz787_i | if anything this has been helping me to learn tcl | 19:33 |
| kanzure | ouch | 19:33 |
| nmz787_i | I found a bug in the g-stl with the hilbert-2d example | 19:34 |
| fenn | http://hexagrahamaton.tumblr.com/image/51325081533 | 19:34 |
| kanzure | is this a tumblr for hexagonkin | 19:34 |
| fenn | no | 19:34 |
| kanzure | "I strongly identify as a hexagon and I find it disgusting that society does not extend me the courtesy of addressing me as my preferred pronoun, 'Stewart'." | 19:35 |
| fenn | that's stupid | 19:35 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: so can a hexagon define a cuboid thing? | 19:35 |
| kanzure | you're the one with the tumblr link | 19:35 |
| kanzure | time for you to indoctrinate him into the hexagon cult | 19:35 |
| nmz787_i | like the graphic here? http://hexnet.org/content/permutohedron | 19:35 |
| fenn | i'm annoyed tumblr is so infested with SJW outragists | 19:35 |
| nmz787_i | makes me think of this http://hackaday.io/project/2396-volumetric-circuits | 19:36 |
| fenn | are you talking about a cuboctahedron? | 19:36 |
| fenn | (yes i've read the permutohedron article) | 19:37 |
| fenn | that "volumetric circuits" thing is cute but it ends up in a diamond lattice in the end so why not just start with that | 19:39 |
| kanzure | er i meant stewart platforms and domes | 19:40 |
| fenn | before chip ICs were invented "cordwood construction" was common http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printed_circuit_board#Cordwood_construction | 19:42 |
| fenn | i think it's still a good idea | 19:43 |
| fenn | have to be careful that the leads never touch though | 19:44 |
| fenn | dunk the whole thing in solarez resin :P | 19:44 |
| kanzure | it's really too bad that planar circuit stuff wasn't figured out sooner | 19:44 |
| kanzure | what were all the photographers doing? | 19:44 |
| fenn | sooner? it happened basically right after the transistor was popularized | 19:45 |
| kanzure | i can understand why it never happened before, say, the 1800s-- everyone thought anything involving optical reduction was devil magic, so they were not really looking in those directions. | 19:45 |
| kanzure | but once they were regularly using reduction and magnification i don't have a good answer | 19:46 |
| nmz787_i | they didn't even make achromatic lenses then | 19:46 |
| fenn | wait, are you talking about IC chips or PCBs? | 19:46 |
| kanzure | even quite large surfaces would have been acceptable | 19:46 |
| nmz787_i | an probably didn't think about photoresist | 19:46 |
| fenn | PCB requires no reduction optics | 19:46 |
| fenn | monochromatic light doesn't need achromatic lenses (duh) | 19:47 |
| fenn | "actinic rays" | 19:47 |
| kanzure | i suppose i didn't pick pcb or integrated chip as the subject of this rant | 19:48 |
| kanzure | um, either? | 19:48 |
| kanzure | most people probably just nailed shit into a piece of plywood and called it a day | 19:48 |
| nmz787_i | how well could they make prisms though? they didn't know about gratings then | 19:49 |
| fenn | they did know about gratings and there was a huge race to make the best diffraction ruling engine | 19:49 |
| nmz787_i | wasn't the early 1800s just when that all started though | 19:49 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure said 'before', say, the 1800s | 19:50 |
| fenn | yes and that was around the time of early electrical circuits | 19:50 |
| kanzure | i could see some argument about "well it's not worth bothering if you don't have a good transistor".. but meh... | 19:50 |
| fenn | that's not really true though; there are tons of complex control circuits one can make with passive components (and relays) | 19:51 |
| kanzure | hmm. | 19:51 |
| fenn | tesla had a remote controlled steamship (with no relays?) | 19:51 |
| fenn | all saturated core inductors and resonant circuits | 19:51 |
| kanzure | then i'm still struggling to explain them. | 19:52 |
| fenn | because mass production didnt exist until the 1910s | 19:52 |
| fenn | everything was a handmade prototype | 19:52 |
| fenn | there were hardly even interchangeable parts | 19:52 |
| fenn | not surprisingly the wikipedia article on "circuit" has no "history" section | 19:53 |
| fenn | .wik magic eye tube | 19:55 |
| yoleaux | "A magic eye indicator, called in technical literature an electron-ray indicator tube, is a vacuum tube which gives a visual indication of the strength of an electronic signal, such as an audio output, radio-frequency signal strength, or other functions. It is also called a cat's eye, or tuning eye in America." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_eye_tube | 19:55 |
| kanzure | "technical literature" | 19:56 |
| fenn | as opposed to ham shack chickenscratch | 19:56 |
| nmz787_i | is that like a .wik electrometer | 19:57 |
| nmz787_i | .wik electrometer | 19:57 |
| yoleaux | nmz787_i: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. | 19:57 |
| fenn | not really | 19:58 |
| kanzure | how is there no mass-produced single-object engine | 19:59 |
| kanzure | single-object single-manufacturing-process | 19:59 |
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| fenn | oh my bad, i thought transistor was "invented" in 1956, but it was 1947 | 20:01 |
| fenn | (actually invented by oleg losev in 1920's) | 20:02 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Motorolagoldenviewchassis.jpg | 20:07 |
| fenn | (an actual commercial product) | 20:07 |
| kanzure | "View of the underside of a chassis of a 1948 Motorola VT-71 "Golden View" 7" television set" | 20:07 |
| kanzure | well... i suppose if it works... | 20:08 |
| kanzure | has the advantage of being much easier to tweak and repair | 20:09 |
| fenn | not really | 20:09 |
| kanzure | what are you going to do, get out your 10 micron fingers and dust off your tiny transistor? | 20:09 |
| fenn | oh, i thought you meant vs a PCB | 20:10 |
| kanzure | how is this mounted anyway | 20:10 |
| kanzure | are these hanging? | 20:10 |
| kanzure | there's an entire side that i can't see so it is hard for me to tell | 20:11 |
| kanzure | er, anyway, if things tend to be so expensive, doing things tiny and small seems like a good way to work around that general problem | 20:13 |
| fenn | yep | 20:13 |
| kanzure | reagents are an obvious example but there are others that are often overlooked | 20:13 |
| fenn | houses | 20:13 |
| kanzure | i meant in the case of things you would be doing on a planar chip | 20:13 |
| fenn | planar houses | 20:14 |
| kanzure | for bacteria and yeast, sure | 20:14 |
| fenn | UAV's | 20:14 |
| kanzure | what do you mean? | 20:15 |
| fenn | lots of UAV's are big for no good reason | 20:15 |
| fenn | to carry around glass lenses (when a mirror optic would be more appropriate) | 20:16 |
| kanzure | more specifically i was thinking of something along the lines of this: since most people don't seem to be able to afford any of the big equipment, compressing all of the costs into the optics and spatial light modulation would be a good magic trick because then you have a general platform for manipulating tiny amounts of material... | 20:16 |
| kanzure | but building things like an optical trap is pretty hard still, even with tiny disposable one-off planar platforms | 20:17 |
| kanzure | just having electron or water flow isn't enough | 20:17 |
| fenn | "the big equipment" meaning what exactly? | 20:18 |
| kanzure | anything fun costs too much and blows your budget | 20:18 |
| fenn | and you think this is related to size? | 20:19 |
| kanzure | $5k thermocycler, $200k here, $500k there, things start to add up | 20:19 |
| fenn | optical tweezers isn't that hard | 20:19 |
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| kanzure | was just random example | 20:20 |
| kanzure | as for size: i have no reasonable way to explain why all this shit costs so much | 20:20 |
| fenn | it's the somebody-else's-money problem | 20:20 |
| fenn | "$50k for that? no problem, i'll add it to our budget" | 20:21 |
| fenn | leads to price inflation | 20:21 |
| kanzure | it seems like it's related to manufacturing in an economic sense, so things get priced at how valuable they are (based on how much profit they can create etc etc) | 20:21 |
| fenn | this applies to most business2business transactions, and science of course (which isn't exactly a business) | 20:21 |
| kanzure | so as a result the prices seem high relative to everything else because they are the actually useful items that could be bought | 20:22 |
| kanzure | whereas everything else is worthless junk | 20:22 |
| fenn | it's a market failure | 20:22 |
| kanzure | go on | 20:22 |
| fenn | capital goods dont actually cost that much to produce, but the demand is low so the price is high (yeah i know, economics is stupid) | 20:22 |
| kanzure | the demand is low because nobody wants to spend $500k for that | 20:23 |
| fenn | not true, the demand is low because most people don't build things | 20:23 |
| fenn | or do science | 20:23 |
| fenn | or whatever | 20:23 |
| kanzure | i think that given the option that people would choose to build things | 20:23 |
| fenn | you are wrong | 20:23 |
| fenn | people are lazy and stupid | 20:23 |
| kanzure | i am also lazy and stupid | 20:23 |
| fenn | and how many things have you built in the past year? | 20:24 |
| kanzure | hundreds of thousands of dollars of stuff | 20:24 |
| fenn | "stuff" made out of zeroes and ones | 20:24 |
| fenn | which requires no capital goods | 20:24 |
| kanzure | that's your elitist machinist greybeard talking | 20:25 |
| fenn | hm. well i built a seed starter out of an egg carton... | 20:25 |
| fenn | and bought a bunch of stuff off amazon | 20:25 |
| fenn | so i'm not trying to be elitist | 20:25 |
| kanzure | that's not what i said | 20:25 |
| bci | the world is virtualizing | 20:25 |
| kanzure | go fuck yourself bci | 20:26 |
| bci | ??? | 20:26 |
| kanzure | historically, machinists (i mean the ones trapped in shops all day) just hate anyone working on computers | 20:26 |
| kanzure | but that's not their fault | 20:26 |
| fenn | yeah because they are clueless and have no idea that using the default 0.001" tolerance is life-ruining for the guy who actually tries to make the part to spec | 20:26 |
| kanzure | right | 20:26 |
| kanzure | there are many good reasons to hate them | 20:27 |
| fenn | they = newbie engineers using cad software | 20:27 |
| kanzure | but there's also conventional in/out group stuff happening | 20:27 |
| fenn | sure but i dont care about that | 20:27 |
| kanzure | yes but my point is that computers aren't useless | 20:27 |
| fenn | machinists use computers all the time | 20:27 |
| kanzure | "zeroes and ones don't count man" | 20:27 |
| kanzure | indeed | 20:28 |
| fenn | you were asking why capital goods were expensive | 20:28 |
| kanzure | oh right | 20:28 |
| kanzure | so size certainly doesn't help | 20:28 |
| kanzure | and mass either | 20:28 |
| fenn | if 99% of the people are producing zeroes and ones, they don't have much use for capital goods | 20:28 |
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| kanzure | whatever happened to cement cnc? | 20:29 |
| fenn | was that a project i was supposed to be working on? | 20:29 |
| fenn | are you talking about "contour crafting" (automated building) or a concrete frame machine tool? | 20:29 |
| kanzure | kinda, but only in the sense that you should file bug reports upstream when you come across them | 20:29 |
| kanzure | concrete frame | 20:30 |
| fenn | i actually have a situation where building that makes sense now | 20:30 |
| kanzure | hm. | 20:30 |
| kanzure | well, when you need money just ask | 20:31 |
| fenn | it shouldnt cost much | 20:31 |
| fenn | accuracy is overrated anyway | 20:31 |
| fenn | er, precision. blah | 20:31 |
| fenn | stupid germans | 20:31 |
| kanzure | germans caused term conflation there? | 20:31 |
| fenn | no, germans are obsessed with precision | 20:32 |
| fenn | .g accuracy vs precision | 20:33 |
| yoleaux | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision | 20:33 |
| fenn | i've never heard of "trueness" applied in this sense | 20:34 |
| kanzure | all of the electronics in a shop or lab should be the same as much as possible except for whatever must be absolutely different to accomodate something weird or unusual | 20:37 |
| fenn | there are a lot of weird and unusual things to be accomodated in a lab | 20:38 |
| kanzure | also the same should go for structural framing if framing is even necessary | 20:38 |
| kanzure | why is everything using separate electronics anyway | 20:39 |
| fenn | i think cost should factor in, unless you want to buy several tons of 80/20 | 20:39 |
| kanzure | wouldn't a lab be the ideal place for a mainframe or something | 20:39 |
| fenn | no, what? that's a terrible idea | 20:39 |
| fenn | shame! | 20:39 |
| kanzure | i don't mean an actual mainframe | 20:39 |
| kanzure | but you don't need twenty thermocyclers each with custom chips sampling temperature on their own | 20:39 |
| fenn | a lab would be an ideal place for ethernet | 20:40 |
| fenn | wifi maybe | 20:40 |
| fenn | i wish USB had been power over ethernet | 20:40 |
| fenn | some crappy 5V version of PoE | 20:40 |
| kanzure | that synthetic organic chemist that i pay should be paid to figure out how to store those chemicals for longer than a few weeks for phosphoramidite chemistry | 20:41 |
| kanzure | that would be a useful thing to do | 20:42 |
| fenn | today i received an inline USB current and voltage meter | 20:42 |
| kanzure | i don't want to deal with that scheduling nightmare ("gotta use it or die") | 20:42 |
| fenn | what if there's no answer? | 20:43 |
| fenn | and how do you determine "no answer" vs "crappy chemist" | 20:43 |
| fenn | surely others have tried to figure this out? | 20:43 |
| kanzure | i suspect others have figured this out, or they store precursors or some other derivatives instead | 20:44 |
| kanzure | or that the instructions are lying | 20:44 |
| kanzure | (instructions might be lying s that you buy more stuff from the suppliers) | 20:44 |
| kanzure | *so | 20:44 |
| kanzure | and also, if they just need us to paint some bottles black, we can paint some bottles black | 20:45 |
| fenn | so if the chemicals last longer in an unopened bottle, maybe you can just keep them in smaller bottles | 20:45 |
| kanzure | or open them only under argon | 20:47 |
| kanzure | ... a little bit extreme. i prefer your slution. | 20:47 |
| kanzure | *solution | 20:47 |
| fenn | http://www.dx.com/p/dc62-led-display-usb-power-charger-data-transmit-current-voltage-tester-white-315316 | 20:47 |
| fenn | argon is fine for rebottling (i guess) | 20:47 |
| fenn | vacuum is cheaper than argon :P | 20:48 |
| kanzure | also i forget if the entire machine is kept under argon pressure, but if so then keeping bottles hooked up should not be problematic and doesn't explain their "expiry" | 20:48 |
| kanzure | oh maybe initial oxygen exposure is enough | 20:51 |
| kanzure | man that sucks | 20:51 |
| kanzure | also i forgot about your "hire lots of cheap science labor" scheme | 20:58 |
| kanzure | we should uh.... do that. | 20:58 |
| kanzure | why don't pipette tips tell you when you tap the edges or surface of a tube | 21:05 |
| nmz787_i | electroplating is more $ | 21:06 |
| nmz787_i | I wonder if this would work https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/x89XVFQf | 21:07 |
| fenn | you could sense it with acoustic vibrations | 21:07 |
| nmz787_i | https://github.com/davidk/electroscope | 21:08 |
| fenn | or a webcam | 21:08 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, piezo crystal to sense vibes? | 21:08 |
| fenn | yeah | 21:08 |
| nmz787_i | or an accelerometer? | 21:08 |
| fenn | no | 21:09 |
| fenn | you'd want to drive the tip with some vibrations and sense when they are dampened by the friction with the tube wall | 21:09 |
| nmz787_i | hrmm, BLDC vibration motor and sense back-emf? | 21:10 |
| fenn | too much vibration | 21:10 |
| nmz787_i | or similar with piezo | 21:10 |
| nmz787_i | I guess that would be some kind of phase difference detector | 21:11 |
| kanzure | just small cloth + piezo sensor that you place on small tube while you're holding it with pipette in other hand | 21:11 |
| fenn | oh you're doing it by hand? | 21:11 |
| fenn | then i dont know what the problem is | 21:11 |
| nmz787_i | but that wouldn't work for all items kanzure | 21:11 |
| kanzure | fenn: the problem is that errors happen | 21:11 |
| kanzure | and it is good to know about them | 21:11 |
| fenn | the errors are usually of the type "did i add reagent X to this tube?" | 21:11 |
| nmz787_i | hrmm, I guess it depends on how conductive the media is | 21:12 |
| nmz787_i | physically conductive | 21:12 |
| nmz787_i | is that phonons? | 21:12 |
| fenn | there is some vision software to keep track of what you did | 21:12 |
| fenn | no, phonons are electromagnetic | 21:12 |
| kanzure | maybe i'm misremembering but there were concerns to be had about tip contact with walls | 21:13 |
| fenn | that's ridiculous | 21:13 |
| fenn | if you're pipetting around zeptoliters of solution you are doing it wrong | 21:13 |
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| kanzure | fenn: http://www.reddit.com/r/Glitch_in_the_Matrix/comments/2ee4h1/i_vaguely_recall_verne_troyer_dying_a_few_years/ | 21:39 |
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| fenn_ | hmm. | 22:01 |
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| fenn | derp | 22:02 |
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| fenn | wtf who is that | 22:10 |
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| * fenn bites his tail furiously | 22:13 | |
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| maaku_ | what the hell kind of subreddit is that | 22:53 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Feb 13 00:00:53 2015 | ||
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