| --- Log opened Fri Feb 20 00:00:59 2015 | ||
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| delinquentme | kanzure, ... gantz? | 00:19 |
|---|---|---|
| delinquentme | ( nuts ) | 00:19 |
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| fenn | delinquentme: the anime? | 00:26 |
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| fenn | gosh why would anyone want to take a bus to facebook HQ what an unreasonable demand i have | 00:33 |
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| delinquentme | fenn, ya | 00:54 |
| delinquentme | its effing wild | 00:54 |
| delinquentme | fenn, and why are you wanting to go to FB HQ? | 00:54 |
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| fenn | it's a quick bike ride on the bay trail from facebook to transcriptic | 00:55 |
| fenn | but the bus apparently just drives past facebook and drops you in the middle of nowhere with semi trucks and trains and shit | 00:56 |
| fenn | transcriptic really should be in emeryville next to all the biotech stuff anyway | 00:57 |
| fenn | but it is where it is | 00:57 |
| fenn | anyway gantz was cool; my favorite character died a horrible death of course | 00:58 |
| delinquentme | fenn you're working @ transcriptic now? | 00:58 |
| fenn | no | 00:59 |
| delinquentme | getting sequences? | 00:59 |
| fenn | i want to see what's behind the "cloud" bullshit | 00:59 |
| delinquentme | water vapor | 00:59 |
| fenn | i know a fair bit about robotics and scientific instruments and biology and programming and building things, so they probably need me | 01:00 |
| fenn | i have no idea how to communicate this though | 01:00 |
| delinquentme | you're not into selling yourself fenn? | 01:06 |
| delinquentme | should I coach you through it? | 01:07 |
| fenn | i wouldn't trust anything you had to say | 01:07 |
| fenn | lots of these "negotiation" guides assume you have a super duper strong negotiating position | 01:08 |
| fenn | whereas i have huge gaping holes in my work history | 01:08 |
| fenn | *shrug* i guess i could just say i was at the CIA | 01:09 |
| fenn | now kanzure will bitch at me about undervaluing myself | 01:10 |
| fenn | i know how much i'm worth, it's convincing other people of that that's hard | 01:10 |
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| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | 01:24 | |
| -!- Topic set by augur [~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] [Thu Jan 15 14:54:02 2015] | 01:24 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 01:24 | |
| [ altersid ] [ cluckj ] [ EnabrinTain ] [ juul ] [ Quashie_ ] [ the8thbit|work ] | 01:24 | |
| [ andytoshi ] [ comma8 ] [ fenn ] [ kanzure ] [ rigel ] [ the_elven_archer] | 01:24 | |
| [ archels ] [ crescendo ] [ gene_hacker ] [ kenju254 ] [ ryankarason ] [ ThomasEgi ] | 01:24 | |
| [ augur ] [ cuba ] [ gnusha ] [ nickjohnson ] [ saurik ] [ thundara ] | 01:24 | |
| [ balrog ] [ Daeken ] [ Guest1366 ] [ night ] [ selkie_ ] [ TMA ] | 01:24 | |
| [ bbrittain ] [ delinquentme] [ heath ] [ nmz787 ] [ sheena ] [ Viper168_ ] | 01:24 | |
| [ Beatzebub_] [ dendritic ] [ hehelleshin ] [ nsh ] [ sivoais ] [ Vutral ] | 01:24 | |
| [ bkero ] [ Douhet ] [ HEx1 ] [ paperbot ] [ Souljack ] [ yashgaroth ] | 01:24 | |
| [ blueskin ] [ dpk ] [ JayDugger ] [ ParahSailin_] [ soylentbomb ] [ yoleaux ] | 01:24 | |
| [ BobaMa ] [ drazak ] [ JonTitor ] [ pasky_ ] [ strages ] [ yorick ] | 01:24 | |
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| [ Burninate ] [ dustinm ] [ juri_ ] [ Proteus ] [ streety ] | 01:24 | |
| [ catern ] [ dvorkbjel ] [ justanotheruser] [ Qfwfq ] [ superkuh ] | 01:24 | |
| -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 75 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 75 normal] | 01:24 | |
| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 01:24 | |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: only 100X more expensive than the last one you sent me https://sgidna.com/bxp3200.html | 01:44 |
| nmz787 | it seems like it could be put to work immediately though, for profit maybe, but I am not sure... maybe as some sort of other pipeline | 01:44 |
| nmz787 | 'Internet access required' | 01:45 |
| nmz787 | but then before that it says IF 'You will be able to monitor the progress of the instrument through the application in real time on the User Interface or via the web site if the instrument is connected to the internet during the run.' | 01:45 |
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| archels | http://beyondhumanism.weebly.com/ | 02:09 |
| archels | the chap behind this, Stefan Sorgner, is speaking here next week | 02:10 |
| archels | title of the talk is "TranshumaNietzsche" | 02:10 |
| archels | his website looks pretty barren though | 02:10 |
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| fenn | Guest1366: maaku how about we meet some time this weekend or next week and you convince me to move to the south bay and work at transcriptic | 04:12 |
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| kanzure | fenn: the point of banning logic from protocols is that they are expecting to use webhooks or services like IFTTT or something. they don't want to run a generic virtual machine for everyone's stupid science. | 05:15 |
| fenn | i thought it was for validation/predictability/contamination | 05:15 |
| fenn | mostly predictability | 05:16 |
| fenn | don't need a virtual machine to do if/then statements | 05:16 |
| kanzure | another reason is because it allows them to run more advanced algorithms for work separation on their end; and things like (automatic) scheduling or planning. | 05:17 |
| fenn | right, with better algebra you can refactor experiments and have less wasted resources by mashing things together in the same plate | 05:18 |
| fenn | .wik ifttt | 05:18 |
| yoleaux | "IFTTT is a web-based service in which users can create chains of simple conditional statements, called "recipes," that are triggered based upon changes to other web services such as Gmail, Facebook, Instagram, and Craigslist. IFTTT is an abbreviation of "If This Then That" (pronounced like "gift" without the "g")." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifttt | 05:18 |
| fenn | that wouldn't work for most of the use cases i mentioned | 05:19 |
| fenn | "dear google, please tell me how many cells are in this image" | 05:20 |
| kanzure | if you plan to meet with transcriptic then i strongly recommend hanging out with maaku first | 05:21 |
| fenn | why am i still awake | 05:23 |
| superkuh | Carpe noctem. | 05:24 |
| kanzure | you were so excited to talk with me that you couldn't sleep | 05:24 |
| kanzure | "fundamental forces" http://xkcd.com/1489/ | 05:26 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: i'm surprised they listed a price ($49,500) https://sgidna.com/bxp3200.html | 05:29 |
| fenn | the low low price of $49,999.95 | 05:29 |
| fenn | cheapest automated gene synthesizer around, i bet | 05:29 |
| fenn | (excludes grad students, post docs, undergrads, interns, and other disposable items. terms and conditions may apply. consult your doctor before ingesting machine output. not responsible for petitions, availability, uptime, downtime, time, gravity...) | 05:31 |
| archels | kanzure: incidentally, how's it going with the teardown of that synthesiser (?) | 05:31 |
| kanzure | teardown is done https://www.takeitapart.com/guide/94 | 05:31 |
| archels | what about firmware dump? any further plans? | 05:33 |
| fenn | such 90s very beige | 05:33 |
| fenn | the PVC plumbing pipe is a nice touch | 05:33 |
| kanzure | not at the moment, if nmz787 has a jtag thingy laying around maybe we can pester him to do that | 05:34 |
| fenn | beefy power supply too | 05:34 |
| archels | that thing probably doesn't have JTAG | 05:35 |
| fenn | no but maybe SPI | 05:35 |
| archels | I have an EPROM reader lying around, would be happy to dump them if you'd like | 05:35 |
| archels | probably not even SPI but I can't make out the CPU | 05:35 |
| archels | possibly Z80? | 05:36 |
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| fenn | there's something satisfying about seeing a circuit board where you can immediately identify every chip and component | 05:37 |
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| kanzure | "alright reality seems to be operating as expected, no magic here" | 05:37 |
| archels | yep Z80 | 05:38 |
| fenn | why did he peel the sticker off the PROM? | 05:38 |
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| fenn | wouldnt that risk corrupting or erasing the data? | 05:39 |
| * archels grumbles in nmz787's general direction over how images are included on the page --> background-image: url(https://s3.takeitapart.com/userimages/SPFm6dU.jpg); | 05:40 | |
| kanzure | you know it's pretty funny that delinquentme was offering negotiation tips (considering how much helped i dumped into his last negotiation) | 05:40 |
| archels | fenn: yes, it would | 05:40 |
| archels | there's some famous story about a live demo, where all the photographer's camera flashes flipped some bits and ruined the event | 05:41 |
| archels | kanzure: so what was your goal exactly for this project? | 05:41 |
| fenn | to let all the bits out!!! | 05:42 |
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| kanzure | archels: well, to have a dna synthesizer | 06:05 |
| kanzure | seemed like a reasonable plan at the time | 06:05 |
| kanzure | also that picoarray paper used basically the same setup | 06:06 |
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| gene_hacker | so how do I get 1 gigapascal of pressure for a long time? | 06:18 |
| kanzure | steel? | 06:23 |
| gene_hacker | to carry out a chemical reaction in | 06:25 |
| kanzure | steel chamber? | 06:28 |
| gene_hacker | and how to build up the pressure? | 06:30 |
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| kanzure | heat it? | 06:31 |
| gene_hacker | without heating it | 06:31 |
| kanzure | very good seal and pushing | 06:32 |
| gene_hacker | is there a name for something like that? | 06:32 |
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| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piston#mediaviewer/File:Piston.gif | 06:34 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_compressor | 06:34 |
| kanzure | heh that article shows a gif of a scroll pump (scroll compressor) | 06:35 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_cylinder#mediaviewer/File:Einfachwirkender_Zylinder_funktionsprinziep.gif | 06:35 |
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| ParahSailin_ | diamond anvil cell | 07:57 |
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| archels | might consider putting a compound in there that reacts over time and produces a gas, or such | 08:35 |
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| archels | kanzure: what do the EPROMs actually contain---programmes for operating the machine, or just some static never-going-to-be-changed OS-type code? | 08:36 |
| ParahSailin_ | both? | 08:36 |
| archels | how inconsiderate | 08:37 |
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| kanzure | probably stuff for pushing around argon and phosphoramidites | 08:48 |
| kanzure | valve control logic | 08:49 |
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| kanzure | gene_hacker: phosphoramidite storage problem has been resolved. informant says use freezer, they last up to a year in storage. | 08:53 |
| gene_hacker | nice | 08:53 |
| ParahSailin_ | these guys have some cool shit http://www.azcobiotech.com/ | 08:54 |
| kanzure | yep that's who i'll be buying from | 08:55 |
| ParahSailin_ | they also do some cheap array synthesis | 08:55 |
| ParahSailin_ | which they dont seem to publicize | 08:55 |
| kanzure | their china outpost is failing | 08:56 |
| kanzure | "The Seasteading Institute is consulting with a new unscripted television series for a major cable network. The show is seeking a variety of experts and survivalists ready to create a new community on the ocean while building, engineering, and rehabbing residential quarters. If you have what it takes to survive challenging weather and sea conditions, if you have a yearning desire to experiment with ocean-based technologies, if you can ... | 09:11 |
| kanzure | ... bring a skill set that will add to the sea-villages development, then this is an opportunity for you." | 09:11 |
| JayDugger | Let's see...do I want to basically join the Navy again? | 09:12 |
| JayDugger | Ah, no. | 09:12 |
| JayDugger | Though I will watch an episode if they have a Crossing of the Line ceremony. | 09:13 |
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| nmz787_i | i'm pretty sure I made sure not to use the flash and to only keep the sticker lifted shortly... I believe at the time I wasn't sure if there was text under, but it was a window. | 09:24 |
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| maaku | fenn: i don't think I have a strong opinion on you moving to the south bay or working for transcriptic :P | 11:34 |
| maaku | but i would like to meet up with you sometime | 11:35 |
| maaku | a weekday would probably be better than the weekend | 11:35 |
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| kanzure | "The Government needs to be much more receptive to the idea of tackling aging rather than single conditions. Basically by tackling aging you can then deal with a whole slew of problems before they arise. " | 13:17 |
| kanzure | that's a cute argument | 13:17 |
| maaku | it's unfortunately still stuck in the giggle territory however | 13:25 |
| maaku | people hear their representatives are funding anti-ageing programmes and they think they're vain or descended into madness and vote the guy out | 13:25 |
| kanzure | so, if that is true, then i have some clever ways to screw that up | 13:27 |
| kanzure | for one, you don't need to call it longevity, life extension or anti-aging, because even basic advances in science can be helpful | 13:27 |
| kanzure | and then that just resolves to people complaining about basic science | 13:27 |
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| kanzure | why don't we have any crazy pneumatics people in here? | 13:30 |
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| kanzure | http://amorphicrobotworks.org/works/skelli/images/valvebank.jpg | 13:49 |
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| kanzure | http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2015/02/human-dna-enlarges-mouse-brains | 14:44 |
| kanzure | "Out of more than 100 candidates, they and Duke developmental neurobiologist Debra Silver tested a half-dozen. Then for HARE5, the most active enhancer in an area of the brain called the cortex, they made minigenes containing either the chimp or human version of the enhancer linked to a “reporter” gene that caused the developing mouse embryo to turn blue wherever the enhancer turned the gene on. Embryos’ developing brains turned ... | 14:45 |
| kanzure | ... blue sooner and over a broader expanse if they carried the human version of the enhancer, Silver, Wray, and their colleagues report online today in Current Biology." | 14:45 |
| kanzure | "The researchers determined that HARE5 likely controls a gene called Frizzled 8, which is part of a molecular pathway important in brain development. Their further studies showed that the human version of the enhancer causes cells that are destined to become nerve cells to divide more frequently, thereby providing a larger of pool of cells that become part of the cortex. As a result, the embryos carrying human HARE5 have brains that are ... | 14:45 |
| kanzure | ... 12% larger than the brains of mice carrying the chimp version of the enhancer. Silver and Wray plan to test these mice to see if the bigger brains made them any smarter." | 14:45 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2815%2900073-1 | 14:46 |
| kanzure | .title | 14:46 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 14:46 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/e1855dab73a51d6e8da0a915ce4dfa0b.txt | 14:46 |
| kanzure | "Here we report the discovery of a human-accelerated regulatory enhancer (HARE5) of FZD8, a receptor of the Wnt pathway implicated in brain development and size [ 15, 16 ]. Using transgenic mice, we demonstrate dramatic differences in human and chimpanzee HARE5 activity, with human HARE5 driving early and robust expression at the onset of corticogenesis. Similar to HARE5 activity, FZD8 is expressed in neural progenitors of the developing ... | 14:47 |
| kanzure | ... neocortex [ 17–19 ]. Chromosome conformation capture assays reveal that HARE5 physically and specifically contacts the core Fzd8 promoter in the mouse embryonic neocortex. To assess the phenotypic consequences of HARE5 activity, we generated transgenic mice in which Fzd8 expression is under control of orthologous enhancers (Pt-HARE5::Fzd8 and Hs-HARE5::Fzd8). In comparison to Pt-HARE5::Fzd8, Hs-HARE5::Fzd8 mice showed marked ... | 14:47 |
| kanzure | ... acceleration of neural progenitor cell cycle and increased brain size. Changes in HARE5 function unique to humans thus alter the cell-cycle dynamics of a critical population of stem cells during corticogenesis and may underlie some distinctive anatomical features of the human brain." | 14:47 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.cell.com/science?_ob=ShoppingCartURL&_method=add&_eid=1-s2.0-S0960982215000731&originContentFamily=serial&_origin=article&_ts=1424472403&md5=8148419dcbe43ffe1c1be4dcf4be2b0e | 14:47 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9f0e6f5d086ccbb5ff42b5a1a564c087.txt | 14:47 |
| kanzure | hmph | 14:48 |
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| kanzure | serious business http://kreature.org/projects/3d_printer/rostock_plus/extruder/nano_extruder_worm1.jpg | 15:57 |
| fenn | 404 | 16:12 |
| kanzure | what a jerk. | 16:13 |
| fenn | possibly http://kreature.org/projects/3d_printer/rostock_plus/extruder/nano_extruder_worm_1.jpg | 16:13 |
| kanzure | http://kreature.org/projects/3d_printer/rostock_plus/extruder/nano_extruder_v1_b1.png | 16:13 |
| fenn | i thought we agreed that the thread drive extruders were a terrible awful idea that never should have existed | 16:13 |
| kanzure | well #reprap is at it again | 16:14 |
| fenn | oh it's just a worm gear, nevermind | 16:14 |
| fenn | actually i have no idea | 16:15 |
| fenn | is that a printed motor? | 16:15 |
| kanzure | http://kreature.org/projects/submarine/ballast_idea_mockup.jpg | 16:17 |
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| fenn | we'll attack with a flotilla of syringes, they'll never see it coming | 16:17 |
| kanzure | hm he has an etchtank | 16:18 |
| kanzure | i should use #reprap for recruiting more often | 16:21 |
| nmz787_i | i was thinking last night that the best idea for etcher might be a hard-drive actuator with a laser/mirror on it... basically what some of the 3d printer folks are doing... except relying on hard drive heads to be ultra smooth | 16:25 |
| kanzure | flotilla = tortilla + floating? | 16:25 |
| nmz787_i | also, we should definitely get someone on board who wants or already does microinjection... I can send some pipettes their way | 16:25 |
| nmz787_i | <10 micron at the tip is easily available here | 16:25 |
| kanzure | fenn: we should make "no garbage diving" a rule right after "no philosophy". garbage things are less likely to be reproducible or makeable in volume or uh.. serviceable.. or something. like, i never want to support 100 different people with 100 different implementations of something meant for 1 micron accuracy. or precision. | 16:26 |
| nmz787_i | I wonder how hard it would be to get the hard drive head actuators alone | 16:28 |
| nmz787_i | it would be a bit stupid to require people to buy such an engineered thing, just to tear it apart | 16:29 |
| fenn | this is kinda interesting http://kreature.org/projects/krefly/krefly.txt | 16:29 |
| fenn | kanzure: you're assuming that manufacturers will continue to make things, which is incorrect | 16:29 |
| fenn | also a $2 DVD laser is better than a $20000 equivalent made from thor labs parts | 16:30 |
| fenn | also the build cycle is several orders of magnitude faster for junk box parts than for ordering from amazon | 16:32 |
| fenn | you can try to keep a precise inventory of everything in stock, but it's not practical for an individual to get one of each thing (or possible, because sometimes you have to order 10,000) | 16:33 |
| fenn | and by everything i mean a common parts library including materials and mechanics and hardware and optics and electronics | 16:33 |
| kanzure | i am assuming that standard parts are still a thing | 16:34 |
| kanzure | or relatively standard | 16:34 |
| fenn | no | 16:34 |
| fenn | it never was a thing | 16:34 |
| fenn | look around you, just look around. what do you see? | 16:34 |
| kanzure | i mean when's the last time your hardware store ran out of 1/8 inch screws, come on | 16:34 |
| fenn | there is no 1/8 inch screw :\ | 16:34 |
| kanzure | hmm | 16:34 |
| fenn | a #8 screw comes close | 16:35 |
| kanzure | not everyone is going to have the luxury of finding $expensivething in their dumpster for $10 | 16:35 |
| fenn | oops i mean #5 screw (which is so rare i've never seen one) | 16:36 |
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| fenn | sure i agree reproducibility is important, but i've also seen a lot of engineers make BOMs that cost way more than they ought to, simply because they buy everything from MSC or digikey or $big_everything_supplier | 16:37 |
| kanzure | fair | 16:37 |
| fenn | also it'd be great if i could pay for access to dumpsters | 16:38 |
| fenn | penny for your trash sir | 16:39 |
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| kanzure | the way to do that would be garbage auctions | 16:40 |
| fenn | bigger problem is things that *look* standard but turn out to be brand-specific or not quite the standard thing you thought it was or discontinued and nobody makes it | 16:40 |
| kanzure | i guess most heavy equipment suppliers consider those auctions as garbage removal already | 16:40 |
| nmz787_i | you can certainly go visit the local dump | 16:40 |
| kanzure | isn't that what specs are for | 16:40 |
| fenn | i had this problem with fish tubs where some of them were 1mm smaller and the lids would sorta fit but it was awkward or they came loose | 16:40 |
| nmz787_i | it would be strange if your vehicle going out weighed more than coming in | 16:40 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: lots of places have stopped allowing people to do anything but throw trash from their cars, for insurance liability whatever | 16:41 |
| nmz787_i | huh | 16:42 |
| nmz787_i | I remember driving to the dump with a van full of home remodelling waste as a kid | 16:42 |
| fenn | metal scrap yards are more interesting, but also more dangerous | 16:43 |
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| kanzure | so is there really no pile of standard stuff that you can reasonably expect to exist for a while, be widely used in various industries, and not be complex as hell to make | 16:44 |
| kanzure | i thought screws were that | 16:44 |
| fenn | yes there are standard parts | 16:46 |
| fenn | but not as many as you'd think | 16:46 |
| fenn | rather, not as many different kinds of parts that are standardized | 16:47 |
| kanzure | what is the "ground" in a pneumatic circuit | 16:47 |
| fenn | simpler things are more likely to be standardized | 16:47 |
| nmz787_i | seems like a reason to be parametric | 16:47 |
| kanzure | making things arbitrarily parametric is not worth it. you have to look through 1000s of catalogs to find compatible parts. not worth it at all. | 16:48 |
| maaku | kanzure: vacuum? vent to atmosphere? | 16:48 |
| fenn | ground is just a signal return path, usually tied to the negative electrode of your battery | 16:48 |
| kanzure | maaku: yeah i'm sorta expecting vent to atmosphere but i have no clue | 16:48 |
| fenn | or literally stuck in the ground in the case of 120V AC wiring | 16:48 |
| kanzure | pneumatic, fenn | 16:49 |
| fenn | oh derp | 16:49 |
| maaku | prob atmosphere, that makes the most sense | 16:49 |
| fenn | ground can also be a mechanical ground, like the machine frame/chassis if you're talking about pistons | 16:50 |
| kanzure | http://www.halloweenforum.com/attachments/tutorials-and-step-by-step/4327d1242432207-my-animatronic-pneumatic-prop-l_51ad5b2cffa349769c269de162650892.jpg | 16:50 |
| fenn | why are you reading about pneumatics? | 16:51 |
| nmz787_i | airpunk | 16:52 |
| kanzure | there's some pneumatics in that synthesizer | 16:52 |
| nmz787_i | pneumopunk | 16:52 |
| kanzure | argon tank to shift phosphoramidites around and the other stuff | 16:52 |
| nmz787_i | that's just for flush I think though | 16:52 |
| kanzure | er then how is it moving stuff around? | 16:52 |
| maaku | amish transhumanism | 16:53 |
| kanzure | *practical* transhumanism | 16:53 |
| kanzure | maaku: btw, http://kk.org/thetechnium/2009/02/amish-hackers-a/ | 16:55 |
| fenn | someone needs to make these things fold up into a compact bar shape http://kreature.org/projects/krefly/nanoquad_5_s.jpg | 16:55 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: yeah the pressure moves stuff... those lines are valved | 16:59 |
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| nmz787_i | "For the MEBDW system proposed by Su [3], the uncompressed data rate of ten 300-mm wafers per hour (WPH) can be close to 300 Tbps, which would require 30,000 optic fibers operating at 10 Gbps. As a result, the electron-beam layout data must be compressed before being transferred to MEBDW systems. After receiving the data, the electron-beam controllers must perform decompression to generate electron-beam data for the electron-beam | 17:01 |
| nmz787_i | emitters. To achieve high WPH, a very large number of controllers must be equipped in MEBDW systems. Thus, the hardware complexity of electron-beam controller has to be low to reduce total costs." | 17:01 |
| kanzure | argon under pressure? | 17:01 |
| fenn | i'll be impressed when the amish start making solar panels | 17:01 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: can they order kits from ebay? | 17:01 |
| fenn | that would defeat the point | 17:02 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: umm, yeah I think that was the gas | 17:02 |
| kanzure | argon is a neat trick for that | 17:02 |
| fenn | but i tend to agree, "pneumatics were superior to electrical devices because air was more powerful and durable, outlasting motors which burned out after a few years hard labor." | 17:03 |
| fenn | it's much easier to repair a broken pneumatic motor | 17:03 |
| fenn | but they don't break much | 17:03 |
| fenn | even super cheap chinese pneumatic tools are made to a much higher level of ruggedness and metallurgical quality | 17:04 |
| cluckj | oof | 17:05 |
| cluckj | a nice camembert for lunch, followed by macrolides for mid-day snack | 17:05 |
| fenn | .wik macrolides | 17:06 |
| yoleaux | "The macrolides are a group of drugs (typically antibiotics) whose activity stems from the presence of a macrolide ring, a large macrocyclic lactone ring to which one or more deoxy sugars, usually cladinose and desosamine, may be attached. The lactone rings are usually 14-, 15-, or 16-membered." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrolides | 17:06 |
| fenn | eat some sauerkraut or yogurt so you don't screw up your biome too much | 17:07 |
| cluckj | yeah I'll fix it once I go off them | 17:07 |
| fenn | so how bout them 18650's | 17:11 |
| fenn | rah rah rah | 17:11 |
| fenn | go lions | 17:11 |
| * fenn takes a break from the internet | 17:12 | |
| nmz787_i | .wik tomatinase | 17:16 |
| yoleaux | "Tomatine is a glycoalkaloid found in the stems and leaves of tomato plants, which has fungicidal properties. Chemically pure tomatine is a white crystalline solid at standard temperature and pressure. Tomatine as well as the a-glycone derivative Tomatidine have been shown to have multiple health benefits." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomatinase | 17:16 |
| cluckj | wut | 17:17 |
| nmz787_i | .wik cowpea | 17:21 |
| yoleaux | "The cowpea (Vigna unguiculata) is one of several species of the widely cultivated genus Vigna. Four subspecies are recognised, of which three are cultivated (more exist, including V. textilis, V. pubescens, and V. sinensis):" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowpea | 17:21 |
| nmz787_i | "The prohibition against eating food contaminated by flies also makes sense. Perhaps the most interesting is the belief that the ill effects of smoking can be counteracted by hornworm properties; hornworms, incidentally, are among the most important defoliators of tobacco, and so the association is logical. The Navajo, unlike many of the Great Basin inhabiting tribes, did not regularly consume insects, so it is not surprising that | 17:24 |
| nmz787_i | they would hold various beliefs that ingestion was deleterious" | 17:24 |
| nmz787_i | .wik hornworm | 17:25 |
| yoleaux | "Manduca sexta is a moth of the family Sphingidae present through much of the American continent." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornworm | 17:25 |
| nmz787_i | "Nicotine is poisonous to most animals that use muscles to move because nicotine targets the acetylcholine receptor at the neuromuscular junction. However, the tobacco hornworm is capable of metabolizing nicotine from the tobacco plant and using nicotine as a defense against predators. It possesses a gene called cytochrome P450 6B46 (CYP6B46) that converts nicotine into a metabolite. About 0.65% of nicotine metabolites are | 17:27 |
| nmz787_i | transported from the gut to the hemolymph, where they are reconverted to nicotine and released into the air from the tobacco hornworm’s spiracles. The emitted nicotine is used as a way to deter spiders, a practice known as “toxic halitosis.” In one study, tobacco hornworms that fed from nicotine-deficient plants or expressed low levels of CYP6B46 were more susceptible to wolf spider predation (Kumar et al., 2013).[8] " | 17:27 |
| nmz787_i | "Tobacco hornworm caterpillars emit short clicking sounds from their mandibles when they are being attacked. This sound production is believed to be a type of acoustic aposematism, or warning sounds that let predators know that trying to eat them will be troublesome; tobacco hornworms have been observed to thrash and bite predators after producing those clicking sounds. These clicks can be heard at a close distance with a | 17:27 |
| nmz787_i | frequency range of 5 to 50 kHz. The intensity of clicks increases with the number of attacks (Bura et al., 2012).[9]" | 17:27 |
| nmz787_i | 'toxic halitosis' sounds like something a kid in grade school would taunt another with | 17:27 |
| cluckj | something YO MOMMA HAS | 17:28 |
| fenn | the latest "all-natural" vaping craze | 17:28 |
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| nmz787_i | yep | 17:33 |
| nmz787_i | 'what kind of smoke shop DOESN'T have hornworms???' | 17:34 |
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| kanzure | what? tapping hives for honey was a problem? http://www.honeyflow.com/ | 18:33 |
| kanzure | "The Flow frame consists of already partly formed honeycomb cells. The bees complete the comb with their wax, fill the cells with honey and cap the cells as usual. When you turn the tool, a bit like a tap, the cells split vertically inside the comb forming channels, allowing the honey to flow down to a sealed trough at the base of the frame and out of the hive, while the bees are practically undisturbed on the comb surface." | 18:36 |
| kanzure | "When the honey has finished draining, you turn the tap again in the upper slot which resets the comb into the original position and allows the bees to chew the wax capping away, and fill it with honey again." | 18:36 |
| fenn | normally you have to pull the frames out, cut the wax off the surface, then spin it in a centrifuge | 18:37 |
| fenn | all the while the bees are trying to kill you | 18:37 |
| fenn | the wax cutting process killa a lot of bees too | 18:38 |
| fenn | also that scrolling comment thing is stupid and annoying and uses lots of cpu even when it's offscreen | 18:39 |
| kanzure | "rotate and make the honey run out" seems kinda obvious? | 18:40 |
| fenn | Flow (tm) | 18:41 |
| fenn | the fact that things like this are a new invention makes me worry | 18:42 |
| kanzure | maybe this was something that was patented for a while, then it ran out, and now someone's using it | 18:42 |
| kanzure | although it doesn't explain why 30 years ago it wasn't obvious | 18:43 |
| fenn | he says it took "a decade" to perfect it | 18:43 |
| kanzure | we're fucked | 18:43 |
| fenn | i wonder what happens to the frames after they are drained.. do the bees just ignore them or do they refill them? | 18:44 |
| kanzure | you have to rotate it back into the original position | 18:45 |
| kanzure | so that the cells have bottoms again | 18:46 |
| fenn | "When the honey has finished draining, you turn the tap again in the upper slot which resets the comb into the original position and allows the bees to chew the wax capping away, and fill it with honey again." | 18:46 |
| fenn | well that's convenient | 18:46 |
| kanzure | so why are they always shaped like doll houses | 18:46 |
| fenn | they aren't, usually hives are just white boxes | 18:47 |
| kanzure | also i don't understand why anyone would want to take hives apart. why not cameras? | 18:48 |
| kanzure | or you can just weigh them | 18:48 |
| fenn | you had to take them apart to get the honey out | 18:48 |
| kanzure | oh bother. | 18:49 |
| fenn | also stuff like making new queens and inspecting for mites or dead bees | 18:51 |
| fenn | a camera is probably a good idea | 18:53 |
| kanzure | you could do a bee counter at the entrances | 18:54 |
| kanzure | you can even test by throwing dead bees past it | 18:54 |
| fenn | no i mean dead bees are a sign of something else wrong that you need to take care of | 18:55 |
| kanzure | well i mean the counter | 18:55 |
| kanzure | for calibration/development | 18:55 |
| fenn | hm ok | 18:56 |
| fenn | bees are ionic liquid and wax is not, so maybe a capacitance sensor could measure the bee fraction of the hive mass? | 18:57 |
| fenn | i'm not sure how conductive honey is | 18:57 |
| fenn | .wa electrical conductivity of honey | 18:58 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 18:58 |
| kanzure | useless | 18:58 |
| fenn | 10-100 mS/m | 18:59 |
| fenn | according to http://www.cazv.cz/2003/anglicka/clanky/zv10-02/Pridal.pdf | 18:59 |
| fenn | .wa electrical conductivity of blood mS/m | 19:00 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 19:00 |
| fenn | worse than useless | 19:00 |
| fenn | "whole blood suspension is of order ~ 50 mS m-1" | 19:00 |
| fenn | is "ichor" really the right word for insects? | 19:02 |
| kanzure | "fluid that is the blood of the gods and/or immortals" | 19:02 |
| kanzure | what a cop out | 19:02 |
| kanzure | which is it! | 19:02 |
| fenn | that is totally what i'm calling my robot's hydraulic fluid | 19:03 |
| fenn | in the last universe "ichor" was the word for insect's circulatory fluid | 19:06 |
| fenn | but here it's called... hemolymph? | 19:06 |
| kanzure | well, plasma. | 19:08 |
| fenn | plasma is the non-cell fraction of blood | 19:09 |
| fenn | "in insects, exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide occurs in the tracheal system. Hemolymph plays no part in the process in most insects." | 19:10 |
| fenn | "diameters from only a few micrometres up to 0.8 mm. The smallest tubes, tracheoles, penetrate cells" | 19:12 |
| kanzure | what did you want your bug farm for, again? | 19:13 |
| fenn | which bug farm | 19:13 |
| kanzure | giant insects | 19:13 |
| fenn | oh, sexual pleasures etc | 19:14 |
| kanzure | wat? | 19:14 |
| fenn | huh? | 19:14 |
| fenn | i just like rhinoceros beetles | 19:14 |
| fenn | luna moths are pretty cool too | 19:15 |
| kanzure | you are sexually attracted to insects? | 19:15 |
| fenn | no, that was a joke | 19:15 |
| kanzure | i don't know what's real anymore | 19:15 |
| fenn | i don't have any rational reason to want giant insects | 19:15 |
| kanzure | food? | 19:16 |
| fenn | i do think there are good economic arguments for giant crickets as a food | 19:16 |
| fenn | and environmental | 19:16 |
| fenn | many have tried and failed to popularize the concept | 19:16 |
| fenn | "terraprawns" | 19:17 |
| fenn | dried wax moths are available for a not totally unreasonable price, but it's not at all competitive with traditional food | 19:18 |
| fenn | also i think they maybe are not intended for human consumption (pet lizard food or smth) | 19:18 |
| fenn | insects have short life cycles and can reach reasonably large biomass so maybe a good platform for production of biologics | 19:19 |
| fenn | i guess fungus is easier to deal with | 19:20 |
| kanzure | cell cultures seem to crash much more easily than bigger things | 19:20 |
| fenn | well cell cultures have no immune system to speak of | 19:20 |
| fenn | and usually the product is niche enough to be expensive and allow sterile production methods | 19:21 |
| fenn | but free range engineered crickets would cost a lot less | 19:21 |
| kanzure | honey protein expression? | 19:22 |
| fenn | maybe vanadium binding protein can be modified to adsorb uranium or other elements from seawater, and filter feeders can be used for "mining" | 19:22 |
| fenn | "bio-leaching" | 19:22 |
| fenn | .wik bio leaching | 19:23 |
| yoleaux | "Bioleaching is the extraction of metals from their ores through the use of living organisms." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioleaching | 19:23 |
| kanzure | lots of "bio leaching" and "bio mining" last year http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2014 | 19:23 |
| fenn | yeah but i dont see how bacteria or yeast could scale | 19:24 |
| fenn | i only see one entry http://2014.igem.org/Team:HNU_China/Project | 19:24 |
| kanzure | i've thought about that before, and my one idea is giant bioreactors with emulsions/bubbles, regularly sort them and feed them | 19:24 |
| fenn | .title | 19:24 |
| yoleaux | Team:HNU China/Project - 2014.igem.org | 19:24 |
| fenn | bah | 19:24 |
| kanzure | the search term is remediation on that page | 19:24 |
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| fenn | wow ok there are quite a few projects on bioremediation | 19:25 |
| fenn | this is a good wiki page | 19:28 |
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| fenn | why am i not subscribed to enzymaticsynthesis | 19:36 |
| kanzure | because you hate email | 19:37 |
| fenn | apparently "show desktop site" doesn't actually show the version you'd get on a desktop | 19:39 |
| fenn | i have no idea if i'm subscribed or not, but there doesn't seem to be any way to subscribe | 19:39 |
| kanzure | "No new invitations were sent. One person is already a member of the group. The provided email address might be a primary, secondary or alternate email address of this person." | 19:41 |
| fenn | i think i was subscribed already and the UI is just dumb | 19:41 |
| kanzure | actually this says you joined in 2012 | 19:41 |
| kanzure | yes | 19:41 |
| kanzure | yes the ui is awful | 19:41 |
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| fenn | did anyone figure out a good RFID/barcode inventory tracking system for hackerspaces? | 19:46 |
| fenn | i have no particular desire to reinvent this if it exists and works well | 19:47 |
| kanzure | i don't think so, or if they did then they never told the hackerspaces mailing list about it | 19:47 |
| kanzure | there's a lot of really lame implementations | 19:47 |
| fenn | looks like they only use rfid for door locks, which i couldn't care less about | 19:48 |
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| fenn | i want to track whether tools are in a place or not, and when they left and who was there when they left | 19:48 |
| fenn | also general stuff tracking like "how many X do i have" | 19:49 |
| fenn | or "where is X" | 19:49 |
| fenn | maybe i do need to write this | 19:50 |
| kanzure | er, what happens when the data is all wrong? | 19:51 |
| fenn | that's what the RFID is for | 19:51 |
| fenn | commercial tags are like $0.05 in quantity 1000 | 19:52 |
| fenn | hrm. "A passive 96-bit EPC inlay (chip and antenna mounted on a substrate) costs from 7 to 15 U.S. cents. If the tag is embedded in a thermal transfer label on which companies can print a bar code, the price rises to 15 cents and up. Low- and high-frequency tags tend to cost a little more." | 19:53 |
| fenn | no date on that article | 19:54 |
| fenn | the problem is that readers for that kind of tag are expensive | 19:54 |
| fenn | things may have changed since i last researched this | 19:54 |
| fenn | for components it may be easiest to tag a bag with RFID and weigh it periodically | 19:56 |
| fenn | the count will be accurate enough | 19:56 |
| kanzure | what about venom expression | 19:57 |
| fenn | if the scale has an rfid reader built in you can run a script to auto update the quantity in that bag; as long as there are no indiana joneses adding weights to the bag it will be an accurate count | 19:57 |
| fenn | putting something on a scale doesn't take long | 19:58 |
| fenn | venom? | 19:58 |
| kanzure | easy to bottle | 19:58 |
| fenn | er, what about it | 19:59 |
| fenn | as a project? | 19:59 |
| kanzure | well, with insects your options are basically honey or silk expression | 19:59 |
| kanzure | and i'm not really sure about spinning down silk to extract other stuff | 19:59 |
| fenn | venom producing organisms already do an alright job of producing venom? | 19:59 |
| kanzure | exactly | 19:59 |
| kanzure | you could probably have them express other things in venom | 19:59 |
| fenn | oh ok | 19:59 |
| fenn | bacteria would be easier for short peptides, but iirc many venoms are circular peptides and that may not be possible in bacteria | 20:00 |
| kanzure | surely there's a bunch of junk in venom? | 20:00 |
| fenn | .wik cyclosporine | 20:01 |
| yoleaux | "Ciclosporin (INN/BAN) (pronounced /ˌsaɪkləˈspɔrɪn/); cyclosporine (USAN); cyclosporin (former BAN); or ciclosporin A, cyclosporine A, or cyclosporin A (often shortened to CsA) is an immunosuppressant drug widely used in organ transplantation to prevent rejection." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclosporine | 20:01 |
| fenn | .wik amantin | 20:01 |
| yoleaux | "The Atebubu-Amantin District is one of the twenty-two (22) districts of the Brong Ahafo Region of Ghana. Its capital is Atebubu." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atebubu-Amantin_District | 20:01 |
| fenn | .wik amatoxin | 20:01 |
| yoleaux | "Amatoxins are a subgroup of at least eight toxic compounds found in several genera of poisonous mushrooms, most notably Amanita phalloides and several other members of the genus Amanita, as well as some Conocybe, Galerina and Lepiota mushroom species." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amatoxin | 20:01 |
| fenn | hrmph | 20:02 |
| fenn | .wik amanitin | 20:02 |
| yoleaux | "Amanitin may refer to several related amatoxins:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanitin | 20:02 |
| fenn | how can you go wrong with "destroying angel" | 20:02 |
| kanzure | tree sap could work? | 20:02 |
| fenn | seems like antivenom would be more useful | 20:03 |
| fenn | currently it's laboriously produced by torturing furry creatures and then storing their blood extract in a refrigerator, with constant shortages for entire countries | 20:04 |
| kanzure | more useful than generic protein expression? | 20:04 |
| fenn | the problem is there are so many venoms | 20:05 |
| fenn | they actually do triage with antivenom in the USA because of the shortages | 20:05 |
| kanzure | hm i wonder if anyone has a list or table of high-capacity expression vectors | 20:06 |
| kanzure | surely someone has looked into the theoretical capacity of caterpillar silk versus goat milk expression of random recombinant proteins | 20:07 |
| kanzure | versus lifecycle length | 20:08 |
| kanzure | jonano is trolling #bitcoin at the moment | 20:08 |
| kanzure | ("the ebola virus of cryonics") | 20:08 |
| fenn | good for him? | 20:08 |
| kanzure | well i'm trying to counter his bullshit :/ | 20:09 |
| fenn | what are the units of "expression capacity" | 20:09 |
| kanzure | liters? | 20:09 |
| fenn | no | 20:09 |
| kanzure | :( | 20:09 |
| fenn | grams or activity per ... dollar? per hour*m^3 of lab? | 20:10 |
| fenn | obviously a single goat will express more than a single bacterium | 20:11 |
| kanzure | well whatever it is, probably more biased towards lifecycle things and difficulty of injecting plasmids or long-term expression or somtehing... if it takes 100 years for a tree to start expressing polymerase, no thanks. | 20:11 |
| kanzure | *start expressing polymerase in tree serum | 20:11 |
| fenn | lifecycle is a different parameter | 20:11 |
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| fenn | hum maybe NFC phones can read RFID tags? | 20:14 |
| fenn | that would be cool | 20:15 |
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| fenn | new project, a setup that would automatically 3d scan and weigh and photograph objects on various neutral backgrounds and associate that with an RFID tag | 20:24 |
| kanzure | concrete cnc is more practical | 20:28 |
| fenn | ok maybe 3d scanning is overkill | 20:30 |
| fenn | there still don't seem to be any good camera-only open source implementations | 20:30 |
| kanzure | also what was the status of the dlp stuff... something about optics, but then that asshole on youtube basically did everything without non-conventional projector lenses. | 20:32 |
| fenn | i don't get why people are still using laser line scanners | 20:32 |
| kanzure | like why did someone recommend using a microscope | 20:33 |
| kanzure | oh right, the youtube demonstration was not high resolution | 20:33 |
| kanzure | blah | 20:36 |
| fenn | 10 minutes to do a 3d scan seems unreasonable | 20:44 |
| fenn | 400 steps per rev at 15 frames per second is 26 seconds | 20:45 |
| fenn | motion blur shouldnt be a problem with enough light | 20:45 |
| fenn | 10W LEDs are stupidly bright | 20:46 |
| fenn | looking at https://github.com/mvhenten/pylatscan "Python Laser Triangulation Scanning" | 20:48 |
| kanzure | https://soundcloud.com/dj-elsloo/elsloo-digitally-importeds-15th-anniversary-progressive-special-2014 | 20:57 |
| kanzure | http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/the-correct-strategy-of-bitcoin-entrepreneurship/ | 21:15 |
| kanzure | "I wonder how much of this is AK-47s. It is arguably the most successful [weapon]." "Not very much. They licensed it to China." | 21:21 |
| kanzure | so ridiculous | 21:22 |
| fenn | not licensed, just produced | 21:24 |
| nmz787 | .title http://www.macpod.net/electronics/lasershark/lasershark.php | 21:27 |
| yoleaux | Macpod LLC: Lasershark - Intro (Friggin sharks with lasers) | 21:27 |
| nmz787 | https://github.com/macpod/lasershark_hardware | 21:27 |
| nmz787 | for laser galvos | 21:28 |
| fenn | i'm thinking cardboard with laser printed templates is a decent compromise between garbage bodging and full-on fab lab laser cutters and cnc routers | 21:30 |
| fenn | optimized to be cut with a craft knife | 21:30 |
| fenn | less capability though; you can't make gears or anything remotely precise | 21:31 |
| fenn | "This hardware is released under the GPL V2" copyfail | 21:31 |
| fenn | what does it do | 21:32 |
| fenn | USB +-10V galvanometer driver | 21:34 |
| fenn | with a USB mini connector :( | 21:34 |
| fenn | so it substitutes massive hardware complexity for trivial software complexity? great | 21:36 |
| nmz787 | mini is the shit | 21:45 |
| nmz787 | micro has no through-holes for mountin | 21:45 |
| fenn | why not just go full-size B | 21:56 |
| fenn | with o-rings and cannon plugs | 21:56 |
| fenn | better yet if it's machined from solid blocks of titanium | 21:57 |
| fenn | why is there no micro ethernet connector | 21:58 |
| nmz787 | i've had phone micros fail on me a few times, no thanks for lab equipment | 22:21 |
| delinquentme | Im looking for free market research materials | 22:23 |
| delinquentme | anyone know where I might find such a thing? | 22:23 |
| kanzure | united states government does lots of surveys and data collection | 22:24 |
| JayDugger | Try US census data. | 22:25 |
| kanzure | http://www.genetic-programming.com/humancompetitive.html | 22:31 |
| kanzure | "Synthesis of a mixed analog-digital variable capacitor circuit" | 22:32 |
| kanzure | "Synthesis of a cubic function generator" | 22:32 |
| kanzure | this is a lame page... i doubt anyone ever argued that circuits were impossible to generate with genetic algorithms. | 22:32 |
| nmz787 | no, but this is proof they do | 22:48 |
| nmz787 | s/do/can/ | 22:48 |
| kanzure | whowhat? | 22:49 |
| nmz787 | that page seems like it will be particularly useful actually, especially the circuitry routing/layout stuff | 22:50 |
| kanzure | genetic algorithms are just one of many search implementations | 22:51 |
| kanzure | the useful part is not the search algorithm here at all | 22:51 |
| nmz787 | yeah but it's /a/ search algorithm specifically for doing shit i'm interested in and working on | 22:54 |
| nmz787 | it is good to know what exists | 22:55 |
| kanzure | nmz787: fenn and i worked in this lab for a while http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/campbell/ | 22:58 |
| nmz787 | this doesn't seem to load http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/campbell/A%20generic%20scheme%20for%20graph%20topology%20optimization.pdf | 23:02 |
| kanzure | hmm. | 23:04 |
| nmz787 | 0 bytes | 23:04 |
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| kanzure | yes that is problem | 23:06 |
| kanzure | hm. | 23:06 |
| nmz787 | http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/A_generic_scheme_for_graph_topology_optimization.pdf | 23:14 |
| nmz787 | you can cp that | 23:14 |
| nmz787 | or mv it | 23:14 |
| nmz787 | juri_: you should come to the brlcad-side :) | 23:16 |
| kanzure | https://medium.com/@DanielleMorrill/startup-ceo-seeks-executive-assistant-4a209da7f0b1 | 23:24 |
| kanzure | that only costs $85k/year? | 23:24 |
| kanzure | or wait.. maybe 85k is high. i'm trying to decide. :/ | 23:24 |
| nmz787 | "The Extended Pattern Search technology for product layout has matured to the point of being commercialized by DesignAdvance™ Systems, Inc., a spin off from Carnegie Mellon University. DesignAdvance has extended the basic technology to layout 2D Printed Circuit Boards PCBs, its first commercial product, and is in the process of developing a commercial version of EPS for general 3D application to mechanical and electromechanical products." | 23:26 |
| nmz787 | shit, that's what I need to do | 23:26 |
| kanzure | i think octopart has been doing that lately | 23:27 |
| kanzure | not sure. if they aren't, they should be. | 23:27 |
| nmz787 | I didn't think so | 23:28 |
| nmz787 | but maybe | 23:28 |
| nmz787 | i haven't checked really | 23:28 |
| nmz787 | i know they have a blog | 23:28 |
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