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| kanzure | "it is believed that theoretically a coccoid[1] cell with the minimum number of genes to be free living in an environment other than a living host would have a minimum cell diameter of approximately 0.15–0,2 μm" | 07:14 |
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| kanzure | wouldn't it be better to self-infect for cold season? so that you have better control over your schedule and when you get ill? | 08:09 |
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| maaku | kanzure: better not to get ill | 09:57 |
| kanzure | my immune system seems to work | 09:58 |
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| andytoshi | i was telling someone in a bar last night that eukaryotes are close to physical limits on maximally efficient information processing (and that this is physical evidence that these limits are real ones) | 10:46 |
| andytoshi | does anyone have a citation for this? | 10:46 |
| andytoshi | or at least remind me in what sense eukaryotes are efficient (i had thought it was information storage, but DNA uses several atoms per bit so this doesn't sound right..) | 10:47 |
| nmz787_i | we don't know if there are quantum effects at play with bio stuff as of today | 10:47 |
| nmz787_i | but it seems there may be | 10:47 |
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| kanzure | andytoshi: there's no way that they are information processing efficient :) computronium can theoretically do much better | 11:39 |
| heath | http://www.bitchcoin.biz/ | 12:01 |
| maaku | andytoshi: that sounds like a very strange and suspect claim | 12:06 |
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| andytoshi | i'm sure i heard it here | 12:26 |
| andytoshi | not that that contradicts you :) | 12:26 |
| maaku | well, I mean random molecules bouncing around is not efficient. | 12:29 |
| maaku | in Nanosystems Drexler ballpark estimates the computational capacity of a Babbage machine built with diamond rods and gears the size of a eukaryote cell | 12:32 |
| maaku | google is failing me and I don't have the book with me, but I seem to recall at the time I read it ~10 years ago it was some orders of magnitude greater than the top 500 supercomputers combined | 12:33 |
| kanzure | http://fennetic.net/irc/nanosystems.tar | 12:34 |
| maaku | awesome, thank you | 12:34 |
| maaku | and that's no where near computronium limits | 12:34 |
| andytoshi | thx maaku, kanzure. i'll stop repeating this | 12:35 |
| kanzure | there are worse bar fights to participate in | 12:36 |
| andytoshi | this is true | 12:36 |
| maaku | heh | 12:36 |
| kanzure | man now i want to go post a satire of patio11's starfighter post... except mine will be called barfighter. | 12:37 |
| maaku | i'm not sure it's a terrible claim, just apples to oranges.. how do you measure the information processing power of a bio cell? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | well you can probably get some thermal data and then model it as some sort of heat engine | 12:37 |
| maaku | kanzure: do it | 12:37 |
| andytoshi | you could look at the cost in joules of meosis and compare that to copying however many bits | 12:37 |
| kanzure | maaku: "We are going to completely disrupt the bar fighting scene. No longer will you be matched with hapless dolts. Only the very best bar fighters will be available on our app." | 12:38 |
| maaku | andytoshi: right, and it probably is efficient at that. | 12:38 |
| maaku | i mean DNA is pretty a damn compact digital tape, and 3+ billion years of evolutionary pressure probably makes those copying enzymes very efficient | 12:39 |
| maaku | but that feels like an evaluation metric weighted towards making bio look good ;) | 12:40 |
| andytoshi | well, "efficient copying" is as close as you can get to describing a "goal" of evolution | 12:41 |
| andytoshi | but sure, that's just what i landed on when my bar fightee demanded i expand on my claim of efficiency | 12:42 |
| maaku | but not of computation / information processing | 12:42 |
| kanzure | "efficient copying" nope, more like efficient resistance to selection-for-non-reproduction. | 12:43 |
| maaku | andytoshi: you must go to more interesting bars than I do | 12:44 |
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| andytoshi | maaku: myself and one other in the math dept were hanging around with a prospective grad student, we went to the bar i wanted to because i knew it'd have a jukebox and be otherwise empty | 12:45 |
| andytoshi | it was indeed empty, but the jukebox "doesn't work on mondays" | 12:45 |
| andytoshi | i have had interesting conversations with strangers about this kind of stuff, but they almost never challenge my claims :/ | 12:46 |
| maaku | kanzure: so I have a brother who has chosen achieving indefinate lifespans as his life's quest. he's graduated from a bioengineering undergrad program about a year ago | 12:49 |
| maaku | problem is he's aimless as he sees no career starting point which advances that cause, and is unfortunately the easily-discouraged type that needs a swift kick in the pants to get going... | 12:50 |
| maaku | any suggestions generally? I feel he could be of great service to the cause, if there were only a way to motivate him into self-starting | 12:50 |
| kanzure | maaku: selective breeding of animals to survive cryopreservation | 13:07 |
| ParahSailin_ | kanzure: you'd probably get a kick out of this http://hpmor.com/notes/119/ | 13:12 |
| kanzure | don't make me read harry potter come on man be kind | 13:14 |
| kanzure | the hugos? :/ | 13:14 |
| ParahSailin_ | nah, it gets better | 13:15 |
| maaku | ParahSailin_: spoilers? | 13:17 |
| ParahSailin_ | its an author's note, not a chapter | 13:17 |
| maaku | ok i'm just not caught up and wanted to make sure he didn't reference things | 13:18 |
| kanzure | oh brother you read this? :|||| | 13:19 |
| kanzure | hahahaha "First, I’ve designed an attempted successor to Wikipedia and/or Tumblr and/or peer review ... If any accredited investor is interested in buying in at a ludicrous valuation or with open-ended convertible bonds" | 13:19 |
| kanzure | and then he wants someone to give him $20 million so he can start investing in startups | 13:20 |
| ParahSailin_ | i bet hes gonna get it | 13:20 |
| kanzure | "Assaults on obesity that involve directly killing fat cells, rather than futile attempts to mess with the surrounding metabolic processes." | 13:21 |
| kanzure | well, i have to admit his writing has improved dramatically, he is not at all as infuriating as he once was, except that he's a moron | 13:21 |
| kanzure | so his bad ideas still leak through | 13:21 |
| chris_99 | 'an attempted successor to Wikipedia' is that serious | 13:21 |
| kanzure | but his actual writing style is much better now | 13:21 |
| ParahSailin_ | i didnt think three worlds collide was bad | 13:21 |
| ParahSailin_ | for internet fiction | 13:22 |
| maaku | kanzure: meh, it's good fiction | 13:22 |
| maaku | he writes better fiction than he does AI or philosophy | 13:22 |
| kanzure | that's entirely possible. but that does not make it good :). | 13:22 |
| maaku | well if you haven't read it, how can you judge? | 13:23 |
| maaku | the first 20 chapters or so are shit, if that's what you're judging it by | 13:23 |
| kanzure | i read the first chapter once and then felt really bad about myself for trusting someone's recommendation. | 13:24 |
| ParahSailin_ | haha but wait | 13:24 |
| ParahSailin_ | he later complains that he wrote his characters that way on purpose | 13:24 |
| ParahSailin_ | and that readers were being unfair for thinking he was just writing author-inserts | 13:25 |
| kanzure | ah when i was complaining about his writing style i mean all of his previous stuff | 13:25 |
| maaku | kanzure: as i said, shit. he actually learns how to write decent fiction by at least the middle of the series | 13:25 |
| maaku | i wishi he would go back and rewrite the beginning | 13:25 |
| kanzure | it's like wikipedia but tumblr | 13:25 |
| kanzure | i call it outrage sjw fortress | 13:26 |
| maaku | ParahSailin_: well it is such an obvious author insert. his argument that it is not is that HPMOR!Harry is too dumb to be him | 13:26 |
| ParahSailin_ | well no, his argument for why he wrote him that way is that the character is not actually an 11 year old, but a sixty year old personality implanted into a baby | 13:28 |
| maaku | spoiler! although i already guessed that one | 13:29 |
| kanzure | also it is weird to see him repenting about his terrible ways and trying to express an interest in physical hardware stuff | 13:30 |
| ParahSailin_ | he didnt used to like hardware? | 13:31 |
| maaku | but no, i mean when he was accused of author-inserting, he said something along the lines of "harry's not actually a perfect rationalist, i had to dumb him down for the story to be interesting" | 13:31 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: no way, he was more like the type to prefer the perfect algorithm to one day take over the planet and create ai to then cook him some eggs or whatever | 13:32 |
| ParahSailin_ | ah i see | 13:32 |
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| maaku | haha spot on kanzure | 13:33 |
| maaku | ParahSailin_: no he has absolutely zero engineering experience. zero. | 13:33 |
| maaku | he may have programmed a VCR once. but this is hearsay. | 13:34 |
| ParahSailin_ | well his fresh eyes will make him a better investor | 13:34 |
| kanzure | actually his $HOME once had some code in it, i wonder if i have a copy | 13:35 |
| ParahSailin_ | what? | 13:35 |
| kanzure | how do you think stalkmatrix works? by asking everyone what they are up to? | 13:36 |
| maaku | wait wth? angel investor? with what? | 13:36 |
| maaku | he's lived off community donations for the last 15 years | 13:36 |
| kanzure | he wants someone to give him $50M so he can invest in companies :P | 13:37 |
| * maaku goes to read the author note | 13:38 | |
| ParahSailin_ | he could just rename the characters like she did in 50 shades of gray and sell on amazon | 13:39 |
| ParahSailin_ | being a twilight fanfic didnt hurt the sales/legality of that one | 13:39 |
| maaku | what. the. fuck. | 13:41 |
| maaku | "hey anybody, want to throw me a line?" | 13:41 |
| maaku | totally flailing around. admits he has no experience in any of these areas (since he's asking for referrals), but claims his superior rationality will allow him to beat all incombants | 13:42 |
| maaku | also quadcopters with anti-mosquito lasers? seriously? | 13:43 |
| chris_99 | haven't they done that kind of thing already | 13:43 |
| andytoshi | yeah, i'm generally more sympathetic to EY than you guys and that note made me cringe | 13:43 |
| maaku | chris_99: only for PR. it's way easier to use e.g. geneticly modified mosquitos to wipe out the population | 13:44 |
| kanzure | maaku: precisely, thus my comment about how he seems to have admitted the existence of hardware. which is unusual for him. | 13:44 |
| maaku | andytoshi: i try to be sympathetic. i read the sequences, because there were actually some gems in there. | 13:45 |
| maaku | but the hubris, the pig headedness, the extremist sensationalism, and the cult-like following makes it very hard to be sympathetic | 13:46 |
| maaku | andytoshi: did I tell you I've gotten death threats from LW'ers? | 13:46 |
| maaku | that kind of environment does not make it easy to actually get work done towards our supposedly common goals | 13:47 |
| andytoshi | maaku: o.O i idd not know that. generally i do not like the lesswrong community (the user posts almost always come off as having the same hubris etc as eliezer's while also being dumb) | 13:49 |
| ParahSailin_ | death threats? | 13:49 |
| andytoshi | i had a pretty positive impression of the sequences, except the quantum stuff has some serious problems (e.g. many-worlds is only "obviously true" if you imagine the born probabilities have never been observed) | 13:50 |
| maaku | yes, for openly pursuing and advocating for "unsafe" AI | 13:50 |
| andytoshi | :/ they like to talk about not being a cult, you'd think they'd make an effort to act that out.. | 13:51 |
| maaku | andytoshi: there's even a whole sequence on how to avoid being a cult! :P | 13:51 |
| andytoshi | :P | 13:51 |
| kanzure | yes when you define ai safety as god safety i don't know what to tell you | 13:52 |
| maaku | andytoshi: many worlds is the simplest interpretation. the conclusions he draws from it are unsupported.. | 13:52 |
| kanzure | simplest in terms of what | 13:52 |
| kanzure | i suppose it makes it simple to not have to do anything | 13:52 |
| andytoshi | maaku: agreed on both counts, though it would not shock me terribly if it was wrong because it's hard to see why it doesn't imply the born probabilities should be uniform | 13:52 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: it's all linear and obeys all observed conservation laws, "no new physics" | 13:53 |
| kanzure | but so do the other non-many-worlds | 13:53 |
| andytoshi | whereas something like a physical "waveform collapse" would need to act in really contrived ways to avoid violating conservation laws | 13:54 |
| kanzure | i would tell you to read more feynman but he just eventually started handwaving everything | 13:54 |
| kanzure | "CLOCKS! also i have a bitching van" | 13:54 |
| chris_99 | lol | 13:55 |
| kanzure | http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/archive/archive_2014/images/feynman-van-14-0066-30D.jpg | 13:55 |
| maaku | kanzure: simplist in the Ockham sense. MWI has the fewest assumptions. | 13:55 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: i've done a QFT course, i am really not impressed with QFT or feynman's attitude toward mathematical rigor | 13:55 |
| andytoshi | (not that he could've done QFT well by caring; the rest of physics has yet to fill in the gaps given like 70 years..) | 13:55 |
| maaku | the existence of the other worlds falls out of the math of quantum physics. you have to add extra, unverified assumptions to reduce it down to a single world | 13:55 |
| maaku | kanzure: see http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2015/02/19/the-wrong-objections-to-the-many-worlds-interpretation-of-quantum-mechanics/ | 13:56 |
| andytoshi | oooh how am i not subscribed to that blog? | 13:56 |
| maaku | :) | 13:57 |
| andytoshi | i wish caroll wouldn't say "in Hilbert space", to a mathematician a hilbert space is a complete normed inner product space, and the phrase "in Hilbert space" has connotations of dirac-style completely ill-defined math | 14:00 |
| andytoshi | e.g. see any undergrad QM text, "in Hilbert space" means a space with mostly L^2 operators, plus some limits from weak L^2 space, and an "inner product" which takes any pair of these random things into real numbers | 14:02 |
| andytoshi | i guess, generously you could say that it's a "weakly typed inner product" but the rules you need to get correct conclusions out of it are similar in complexity to the rules you need to predict addition in javascript | 14:03 |
| andytoshi | </rant> sorry | 14:03 |
| kanzure | rants are the only acceptable form of communication in here | 14:04 |
| kanzure | so carry on | 14:04 |
| andytoshi | i'll just leave this here http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9907069 | 14:04 |
| kanzure | .title | 14:04 |
| yoleaux | [quant-ph/9907069] Mathematical surprises and Dirac's formalism in quantum mechanics | 14:04 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9907069 | 14:04 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1088%2F0034-4885%2F63%2F12%2F201 | 14:04 |
| andytoshi | lol, arxiv is already free to access.. | 14:04 |
| kanzure | yeah but i wanted a link | 14:04 |
| kanzure | aww 404 | 14:05 |
| kanzure | this has backfired | 14:05 |
| andytoshi | http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9907069v2 | 14:07 |
| andytoshi | is a pdf | 14:07 |
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| andytoshi | o.O caroll claims gleason's theorem implies the born rule (if you assume that there ought to be any probabilities at all :P), i've never heard this before | 14:12 |
| andytoshi | (that's not quite true, i read it in a book about quantum logic by david w cohen as an undergrad, but i didn't understand it at the time) | 14:13 |
| chris_99 | http://www.disneyresearch.com/projects/ has some pretty cool things in it | 14:13 |
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| ParahSailin_ | i was visiting the facebook campus-- in one of the buildings there was loud ping-pong playing in a big echo-y open office | 14:25 |
| nmz787_i | ward cunningham needs help with HTML5 audio API for this teach-morse-code app http://h2.ward.asia.wiki.org/view/welcome-visitors/view/how-to-learn-morse/view/about-morseteacher-plugin | 14:26 |
| chris_99 | http://www.disneyresearch.com/project/touche-touch-and-gesture-sensing-for-the-real-world/ is really neat | 14:26 |
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| delinquentme | command line util to list all headers at a given url? | 16:13 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: check your messages fool | 16:23 |
| archels | curl -ILv url | 16:24 |
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| maaku | so.. nootropics is in the title. anyone suggest what I should start with? Bacopa Monniera? Theanine? | 16:51 |
| maaku | i'm extremely sensitive to caffeine, so i'm avoiding anything with that | 16:54 |
| kanzure | sensitive good or bad? | 16:55 |
| maaku | one expresso in the afternoon and i'm jittery and can't sleep until 4am | 16:56 |
| maaku | generally bad (I feel scatterbrained) unless i'm trying to avoid sleep | 16:56 |
| justanotheruser | at the risk being banned, reddits nootropic subreddit has a lot of documentation https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/wiki/index | 16:56 |
| kanzure | longecity has more documentation | 16:57 |
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| justanotheruser | I tried making my own energy drink. It actually worked really well, but tasted terrible | 16:58 |
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| kanzure | peter thiel joins ycombinator http://blog.ycombinator.com/welcome-peter | 17:44 |
| * maaku geeks out over the printed HPMoR that just arrived in the mail | 17:44 | |
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| JayDugger | Good evening, everyone. | 18:33 |
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| kanzure | hmm | 19:03 |
| nsh | .qik HPMoR | 19:04 |
| nsh | .wik HPMoR | 19:04 |
| yoleaux | "Eliezer Shlomo Yudkowsky (born September 11, 1979) is an American blogger, writer, and advocate for friendly artificial intelligence." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPMOR | 19:04 |
| nsh | argh | 19:04 |
| * nsh clears the buffer | 19:04 | |
| kanzure | haha | 19:10 |
| kanzure | you didn't know who eliezer was? | 19:10 |
| kanzure | http://www.usbtypewriter.com/ | 19:10 |
| catern | no dedicated HPMOR article? | 19:14 |
| * catern shakes fist at deletionists | 19:15 | |
| JayDugger | Really? | 19:24 |
| JayDugger | A typewriter? | 19:24 |
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| maaku | i absolutely need one of those | 20:21 |
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| kanzure | http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/10/the-drugs-still-work/ | 21:07 |
| kanzure | "matches unused medicine with poor patients" | 21:07 |
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| delinquentme | seriously. FML. some combinatoric bullshit with cors and chrome and nginx ... does anyone have a *WIDE* open cors for nginx ? | 23:49 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Mar 11 00:00:18 2015 | ||
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