| --- Log opened Wed Mar 18 00:00:25 2015 | ||
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| genehacker | now this is interesting: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5929/917 | 00:45 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | .title | 00:48 |
| yoleaux | Confining Light to Deep Subwavelength Dimensions to Enable Optical Nanopatterning | 00:48 |
| genehacker | they made 30 nm features with 633 nm and 325 nm light | 00:51 |
| fenn | "lines with an average width of 36 nanometers (nm), about one-tenth the illuminating wavelength λ1 = 325 nm, made by applying a film of thermally stable photochromic molecules above the photoresist. Simultaneous irradiation of a second wavelength, λ2 = 633 nm, renders the film opaque to the writing beam except at nodal sites, which let through a spatially constrained segment of incident λ1 | 00:51 |
| genehacker | the thing that interest me is that they used a photochromic to do it | 00:51 |
| fenn | light, allowing subdiffractional patterning." | 00:51 |
| genehacker | now if I could just control photochromic molecules to within 36 nm | 00:53 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5929/917.full | 00:54 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1167704 | 00:55 |
| fenn | i guess libgen doesn't have new articles | 00:55 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/photochromic_subwavelength_optical_nanopatterning.pdf | 00:57 |
| genehacker | of course it looks like the light has to be transmitted to be smaller than the diffraction limit | 00:57 |
| fenn | this certainly seems a lot easier than all the triple-patterning nonsense | 00:59 |
| fenn | it's similar to two-photon i guess | 00:59 |
| fenn | not sure what you mean genehacker | 01:00 |
| genehacker | the size of the feature on the photochromic material is larger than the size of the feature on the photoresist | 01:01 |
| fenn | you should be able to do repeat exposures to make thicker lines? | 01:01 |
| genehacker | well I'm hoping to use a technique like this to control the actuation of 6 tiny pillars of photoisomerizing material arranged to make a stewart platform | 01:03 |
| fenn | the trick seems to be having one wavelength turn the photochromic layer on, and the other wavelength turns it off, so when you overlap them out of phase you get a tiny spot that is turned on | 01:04 |
| genehacker | yeah and most photoisomers are like that | 01:04 |
| fenn | you could just do a 16% duty cycle (turn one pillar on at a time) | 01:05 |
| genehacker | well the hard part is hitting just one pillar | 01:05 |
| fenn | so you're thinking of coating your pillars in a photochromic layer? | 01:05 |
| genehacker | the pillars are photochromic | 01:05 |
| fenn | ok now i'm lost | 01:06 |
| genehacker | photochromic = photoisomerizing | 01:06 |
| fenn | they change shape upon irradiation with light? | 01:06 |
| genehacker | color change usually means shape change at the nanoscale | 01:06 |
| genehacker | yes | 01:06 |
| genehacker | that's what I work on | 01:06 |
| fenn | how big is the whole platform? | 01:07 |
| genehacker | ideally something that fits inside a 100 nm size cube | 01:07 |
| fenn | also why not just do it electrically | 01:08 |
| genehacker | find me an electric actuator that fits inside a 100 nm size cube | 01:08 |
| genehacker | that can easily self assemble to make a stewart platform | 01:09 |
| fenn | heh ok | 01:09 |
| fenn | i was going to suggest PVDF | 01:09 |
| genehacker | plus wiring such a structure might be difficult | 01:10 |
| fenn | you want some kind of nanoparticle though? i guess you could make them stick together with DNA origami on the ends | 01:10 |
| genehacker | PVDF is a big mess of spaghetti on the nanoscale | 01:10 |
| fenn | sorry i have no idea.. it seems like there would be a lot of things that could do what you want | 01:11 |
| genehacker | then why hasn't anyone won the feynman prize? | 01:12 |
| fenn | because they haven't followed his instructions | 01:12 |
| fenn | everyone wants to jump straight to the nanoscale with self-assembly | 01:13 |
| fenn | .wik feynman prize | 01:16 |
| yoleaux | "The Feynman Prize in Nanotechnology is an award given by the Foresight Institute every year for significant advancements in nanotechnology. It is named in honor of physicist Richard Feynman, whose 1959 talk There's Plenty of Room at the Bottom is considered to have inspired the beginning of the field of nanotechnology." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feynman_Prize | 01:16 |
| genehacker | well I think I got a way to make a stewart platform with some nanolithography and a bit of self assembly | 01:17 |
| genehacker | the problem I have is controlling such a thing | 01:17 |
| fenn | yeah the time constants would be ridiculously fast, so no PWM and no "digital" light projection | 01:22 |
| fenn | fortunately the power is also low | 01:23 |
| genehacker | photoisomerizing molecules switch between two states | 01:24 |
| genehacker | pwm isn't really necessary | 01:24 |
| fenn | how long does it take them to decay back to the original state? | 01:24 |
| genehacker | days | 01:24 |
| genehacker | or much less than that if exposed to the appropriate wavelength | 01:25 |
| fenn | ok so not nanoseconds | 01:25 |
| genehacker | time to switch is very fast though | 01:26 |
| genehacker | like picoseconds | 01:26 |
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| fenn | a wild clone appeared! | 01:27 |
| genehacker | had to terminate it | 01:27 |
| fenn | they call him the dye-deoxy terminator | 01:27 |
| * fenn searches around for a pun trash can | 01:28 | |
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| fenn | welp this photochromic "absorbance modulation" technique looks pretty useful for DIY chip making | 01:34 |
| genehacker | how so? | 01:35 |
| fenn | well you can make 36nm lines with optical wavelengths... | 01:36 |
| fenn | in a straightforward way | 01:36 |
| genehacker | unfortunately you can only make 36 nm lines parallel to each other | 01:37 |
| fenn | in one exposure | 01:37 |
| genehacker | http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2012/CS/c1cs15262a#!divAbstract | 01:38 |
| fenn | .title | 01:39 |
| yoleaux | Great expectations: can artificial molecular machines deliver on their promise? - Chemical Society Reviews (RSC Publishing) | 01:39 |
| genehacker | http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/~dutcher/download/nano_4100/cd/biological%20motors/Chemical%20Society%20Reviews%202011%20Coskun.pdf | 01:39 |
| genehacker | it is worth a read | 01:39 |
| * fenn tosses it on the pile | 01:40 | |
| fenn | weird, grzybowski is one of the authors | 01:41 |
| genehacker | ? | 01:42 |
| fenn | he did a lot of work on analyzing chemical reaction networks to find novel synthesis and to automate the process of designing reactions | 01:42 |
| genehacker | the self assembly guy? | 01:42 |
| fenn | hell i dunno | 01:43 |
| fenn | .wik grzybowski | 01:43 |
| yoleaux | "Grzybowski (feminine Grzybowska, plural Grzybowscy) is a Polish surname. It may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grzybowski | 01:43 |
| genehacker | how long ago? | 01:43 |
| fenn | .wik bartosz grzybowski | 01:43 |
| yoleaux | "Chematica is a software/database that uses algorithms and a collective database of 250 years of organic chemical information to predict and provide synthesis pathways for molecules. The software development, lead by Bartosz A. Grzybowski, took place for a decade when it was finally publicized in August, 2012." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chematica | 01:43 |
| genehacker | oh wow | 01:43 |
| fenn | so a year after your review paper was published | 01:44 |
| genehacker | damn how did I miss that | 01:45 |
| fenn | haha "The program also notes regulated and unregulated compounds, and uses specialized algorithms that avoid these" | 01:46 |
| genehacker | I should totally find a way to implement that for my work | 01:47 |
| genehacker | after all that's just a smiles string comparison | 01:48 |
| genehacker | now where's a list of regulated compounds? | 01:49 |
| fenn | hum good luck guys, "You might well have terrorists trying to cook up a chemical weapon, but currently it is difficult to analyse what is suspicious chemical-buying behaviour because you don't know what new ways there might be of making dangerous things. Or a terrorist may try making, say, a nerve gas using a complex route to confuse the authorities. But, if the government – using Chematica – | 01:52 |
| fenn | knows all pathways for making a nerve gas or another chemical weapon, it is more likely to be able to recognise dangerous behaviour." | 01:52 |
| fenn | a 5 step synthesis has 10^19 possible reaction paths | 01:53 |
| fenn | don't worry, the government will protect us! | 01:53 |
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| jrayhawk | 3 | 01:56 |
| jrayhawk | whoops | 01:56 |
| fenn | looks like it's impossible to actually download chematica, despite much trumpeting | 02:02 |
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| kanzure | probably vaporware | 06:55 |
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| fenn | presumably they're not releasing it because terrists | 07:40 |
| kanzure | there are other retrosynthetic analysis tools methinks | 07:46 |
| kanzure | i would ask my computational chemist preson but she keeps claiming she's not a chemist (i think something went wrong somewhere) | 07:46 |
| kanzure | *person | 07:47 |
| ParahSailin | "specialized algorithms" they probably did minimal CYA on this | 07:47 |
| kanzure | why did people adopt the whitehat/blackhat terminology instead of claiming "ethical hacking" or something? | 08:06 |
| kanzure | http://www.imcdb.org/i759546.jpg | 08:12 |
| kanzure | http://www.starburstmagazine.com/images/120814/chappie-1.jpg | 08:13 |
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| chris_99 | nickjohnson, you're kickstarter is doing really well :) | 09:00 |
| chris_99 | *your | 09:00 |
| nickjohnson | chris_99: Yup! Now I just need some press coverage :) | 09:00 |
| chris_99 | submit it to HaD? | 09:00 |
| nickjohnson | I'm working on that | 09:01 |
| nickjohnson | They resell a couple of my products and expressed some interest in "participating" in the KS | 09:01 |
| nickjohnson | But I haven't heard back | 09:01 |
| nickjohnson | And in the meantime my friends who are HaD editors are reluctant to write it up | 09:02 |
| chris_99 | ah | 09:02 |
| nickjohnson | I'm confident it will end up there sooner or later during the KS | 09:04 |
| nickjohnson | But it's a bit frustrating watching the incoming pledges slow down while I just cross my fingers and wait | 09:04 |
| chris_99 | cool, also possibly submit to hackernews | 09:04 |
| nickjohnson | Oh, duh, good point :) | 09:04 |
| chris_99 | tell us when its on, and ill upvote it | 09:05 |
| nickjohnson | Thanks | 09:06 |
| nickjohnson | But we're past 50% in 36 hours, so I can't really complain :) | 09:06 |
| chris_99 | i was reading the /r/electronics thing a bit too, i don't think some of the people really get how it works heh | 09:07 |
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| nickjohnson | Heh, yes | 09:09 |
| nickjohnson | The comments on that were hilarious | 09:09 |
| nickjohnson | A few sensible ones though | 09:09 |
| chris_99 | yeah | 09:10 |
| nickjohnson | The comments on the amateurradio reddit were even funnier in a way | 09:10 |
| chris_99 | oh not seen those | 09:10 |
| nickjohnson | www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/2z9zi9/kickstarter_arduino_signal_generator/ | 09:15 |
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| nickjohnson | Upvotes greatly appreciated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9226763 | 09:42 |
| kanzure | hacker news will eventually discount those upvotes ecause they all come from a irect link | 09:43 |
| kanzure | *direct link | 09:43 |
| kanzure | *because | 09:43 |
| nickjohnson | hm | 09:43 |
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| nickjohnson | Feel free to go to the front page, then :) | 09:43 |
| kanzure | sort of an anti-spam mechanism | 09:43 |
| nickjohnson | *nods* | 09:44 |
| nickjohnson | kanzure: Actually, now it seems to have vanished off the frontpage entirely :/ | 09:48 |
| nickjohnson | Oh, it's on newest, though | 09:49 |
| kanzure | nickjohnson: http://silverman.svbtle.com/the-best-time-to-post-on-hacker-news | 09:50 |
| nickjohnson | kanzure: heh, ah well | 09:50 |
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| nickjohnson | Damn, I think I missed the frontpage for sure. | 10:46 |
| chris_99 | thats weird its not on the frontpage, considering it has quite a few votes | 10:50 |
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| archels | nickjohnson: what was your motivation for not making it an Arduino module? | 13:03 |
| archels | seems that's a stumbling block for some of these reddit commentators | 13:03 |
| nickjohnson | archels: I wanted it to have a particularly accurate crystal, so I picked a TCXO, and then it seemed a waste not to use that to clock the AVR, too, which allows you to do other nice things, like accurately timed delays, cycle-perfect waveform generation, etc. | 13:06 |
| nickjohnson | And it really costs very little extra to add an AVR to the board compared to making it an Arduino shield. | 13:06 |
| nickjohnson | Also, the built in functionality uses so many pins that in practice you'd be dedicating an Arduino to it anyway | 13:06 |
| archels | hmm, shield with dedicated AVR? :) | 13:07 |
| nickjohnson | In which case, what's gained by making it a shield? | 13:08 |
| archels | anyway, pleasing the internet. good luck with that | 13:08 |
| nickjohnson | heh, indeed | 13:08 |
| archels | (if it doesn't involve pictures of cats, anyway) | 13:08 |
| nickjohnson | Even then, there are people who like dogs better | 13:08 |
| archels | I'm actually looking for a signal generator, this would be perfect if it had a UI (software or hardware) | 13:09 |
| nickjohnson | Update two! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nickjohnson/tsunami/posts/1170174 | 13:12 |
| nickjohnson | archels: There's I2C and UART pins exposed on the Tsunami PCB, as well as mounting holes | 13:12 |
| nickjohnson | Someone in another channel has already expressed interest in building an addon board that has a display and encoder to give it a physical UI | 13:12 |
| nickjohnson | If they don't, I probably will. :) | 13:12 |
| nickjohnson | If I get time, I'll order an I2C display and put up a quick demo of how it works in an update, too | 13:13 |
| archels | cool | 13:15 |
| nickjohnson | This for instance: http://proto-pic.co.uk/serial-enabled-lcd-kit/ | 13:16 |
| nickjohnson | Oh bah, I thought it had inputs | 13:17 |
| nickjohnson | http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-7-Segment-LED-Plus-8-led-8-button-TM1638-Key-Display-for-Arduino-UK-stock-/121588435675?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c4f3c4adb <- this'll do for the demo :) | 13:30 |
| chris_99 | alternatively http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Russian-Ex-Military-Modular-IN-14-Nixie-Tube-6-Digit-Display-with-Serial-Drivers-/221712691498?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item339f1b312a | 13:34 |
| kanzure | archels: what sort of signal generator are you looking for? | 13:44 |
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| archels | something like this http://www.newark.com/productimages/large/en_US/4136139.jpg | 13:47 |
| archels | budget ~€200 | 13:48 |
| Daeken | kanzure: is the plan for the dna synthesizer to use different depths for channels and chambers (as in the paper where a similar design was built), or a uniform depth? | 13:48 |
| nmz787_i | hi Daeken | 13:48 |
| Daeken | hola | 13:48 |
| nmz787_i | solid supports are so last millenium | 13:48 |
| nmz787_i | also I have access to a FIB for mask exposure (PMMA gives good resolution) | 13:49 |
| Daeken | oh nice | 13:49 |
| nmz787_i | also unless you can do anisotropic etch, su-8 might give higher aspect ratio | 13:51 |
| Daeken | i've been just planning on using a UV light to expose the resist. but my issue is the actual etching ... if SU-8 is used, there's no etching, and it's trivial to use that as your negative for PDMS pouring. but if we need multiple depths, we need to use a KOH etch, which means we need to lay down a nitride layer and all that | 13:51 |
| Daeken | su-8 would be optimal, but it really requires a single uniform depth across all features | 13:52 |
| nmz787_i | depth can vary with spin coater settings | 13:52 |
| Daeken | but once you've laid down a layer of su-8 and developed it, you can't just add more to it, can you? | 13:52 |
| nmz787_i | best idea I've surmised is to use a microscope stage with a grid reticle in the field-of-view, use that to calibrate for linearity of travel (or real time feedback and computer vision), along with a blu-ray laser largely unmodified (other than controlling electronics, maybe removing the tracking focus beam splitter) off to the side at some offset | 13:53 |
| ParahSailin | you cant really, because you will not be able to spincoat uniform layer on top of something patterned | 13:53 |
| nmz787_i | that way you get a very-close-to-TEM00 and also a almost diffraction limited spot | 13:54 |
| kanzure | archels: http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Product/TestEquipment/SignalGenerators-Multimeters/ModelASG/Ordering?gclid=COy6sZ_kssQCFYOSfgodqW4AkA | 13:54 |
| nmz787_i | ParahSailin: wouldn't the wafer be flat to begin? | 13:54 |
| nmz787_i | i guess I'm missing something if we're not talking about starting with a flat | 13:54 |
| ParahSailin | [23:52:46] <Daeken> but once you've laid down a layer of su-8 and developed it, you can't just add more to it, can you? | 13:55 |
| nmz787_i | ah | 13:55 |
| nmz787_i | you'd need to fill in the voids somehow... idk if you could assure planarity easily after that | 13:55 |
| nmz787_i | without something like an ion beam curtain to 'belt sand' the surface | 13:56 |
| ParahSailin | i had an idea a long time ago to neutralize voids in su-8 | 13:56 |
| kanzure | archels: nevermind | 13:56 |
| ParahSailin | like using a base to neutralize the photoacid, and not do the develop step before spincoating new layer on | 13:57 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: the lightcrafter thing is just a DLP chip with fast RAM nearby to load patterns quickly... no different at the MEMS level I believe from any other DLP chip in a projector | 13:57 |
| nmz787_i | photobase | 13:58 |
| nmz787_i | :) | 13:58 |
| nmz787_i | idk if that exists | 13:58 |
| nmz787_i | Daeken: are you in Portland OR by chance? | 13:58 |
| Daeken | the only way i can think to do multiple depths is to do KOH etching instead of building up SU-8 | 13:58 |
| nmz787_i | I have access to a lab with all the goodies | 13:58 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: no, i'm in GA | 13:58 |
| nmz787_i | ah | 13:58 |
| ParahSailin | yeah koh is a better idea | 13:59 |
| kanzure | archels: http://www.amazon.com/JYETech-08503-Portable-Generator-Controller/dp/B008V5ACWW | 13:59 |
| nmz787_i | also vacuum bearings are like $10 for something like a spincoater | 13:59 |
| ParahSailin | organics suck for reusable stuff | 13:59 |
| Daeken | i have access to a biology lab, so i can safely handle various materials, but i don't have most basic equipment used for this sort of thing | 13:59 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: no need for a vacuum spincoater -- wafers are small enough to just use double-sided sticky tape | 13:59 |
| nmz787_i | yeah but then you might break your chip or something pulling it off, leave adhesive residue | 13:59 |
| Daeken | so a nice brushless motor and ESC from a quadcopter will do | 14:00 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: i'm not too worried about that -- the wafers are only a few $ a piece, and the adhesive will only be on the back | 14:00 |
| nmz787_i | i take it you've seen the CD-R spindle spincoater on ebay | 14:00 |
| nmz787_i | eh, small wafers are the most expensive kind these days | 14:00 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: yeah, this is even cheaper | 14:00 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: $6.90 a piece, if i buy 25 at a time, for 50.8mm wafers | 14:01 |
| archels | kanzure: hm. The reason I'm willing to shell out so much money for this is that it buys me time | 14:01 |
| archels | kanzure: i.e. don't want this to turn into a project =) | 14:01 |
| nmz787_i | are they clean though, or patterned already? | 14:01 |
| nmz787_i | you might need to ash them first | 14:01 |
| nmz787_i | archels: if you don't need it for too long, rent one | 14:01 |
| Daeken | they should be clean enough for our purposes. may need some processing, but nothing big | 14:01 |
| Daeken | the thing i'm learning more and more with this is: this stuff is huge compared to normal micromanufacturing, so we can cheat ... a lot haha | 14:02 |
| nmz787_i | eh, the large stuff has limited use | 14:02 |
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| Daeken | nmz787_i: how so? | 14:03 |
| nmz787_i | you can't do cell sorting with 100 micron features | 14:03 |
| nmz787_i | well maybe sorting is possible | 14:03 |
| nmz787_i | but not for single-cell things | 14:03 |
| Daeken | everything with this should be 5 micron resolution | 14:03 |
| nmz787_i | clone separation, filtration | 14:03 |
| ParahSailin | ah you are on cell sorting now? | 14:03 |
| ParahSailin | lot more interesting than the dna synthesis | 14:03 |
| nmz787_i | nah just a common use case that most of the 'cheating' microfab can't even get close to | 14:04 |
| drazak | kanzure: am I crazy or did some guy going by genewitch hang out in here for awhle? | 14:04 |
| kanzure | genehacker | 14:04 |
| drazak | ah ok | 14:04 |
| kanzure | so yes you are fucking crazy | 14:04 |
| nmz787_i | the earl of sandwich | 14:04 |
| drazak | that's cool | 14:04 |
| drazak | nothing new | 14:04 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: at 5um, pretty much everything microfluidics-wise is possible, as far as i can tell | 14:04 |
| nmz787_i | yep, until you get interested in nanofluidics because micro is so exciting! | 14:05 |
| Daeken | and we can get away without having a perfect process, simply because 5um is pretty damn huge for standard micromanufacturing | 14:05 |
| Daeken | haha | 14:05 |
| Daeken | i'm really curious to throw this stuff into an SEM and actually measure it, though. i'm wondering how much of the theory is going to translate to practice directly. | 14:05 |
| drazak | kanzure: what've you been up to? | 14:05 |
| nmz787_i | does your lab have an SEM? | 14:06 |
| nmz787_i | if not, I could do imaging | 14:06 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: i don't have a lab, but a good friend of mine (who's super interested in helping wit hthis) does have access to one in hers :) | 14:07 |
| Daeken | she's offered to help out with whatever i need | 14:07 |
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| Daeken | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w4FQyMu8imjmzbpcQDZjZUyKbUah7CHf2EJLRkEOUT4/edit?usp=sharing initial spreadsheet of costs, btw. rough numbers so far, just mainly trying to figure out where things are going to come from, and making sure that everything is accounted for. | 14:11 |
| drazak | kanzure: I guess my friend's boyfriend is working on a liquid aluminium 3d printer | 14:11 |
| kanzure | drazak: do you mean juri_ ? | 14:11 |
| Daeken | also writing it with the assumption that the person building it has basically no access to any equipment, hence why stuff like a hot plate is on there, even if most labs will have one. | 14:11 |
| ParahSailin | has someone made a low temp eutectic 3d printer? | 14:11 |
| drazak | kanzure: I hope not | 14:11 |
| kanzure | juri_: ping | 14:11 |
| kanzure | juri_: stop messing with php healthcare stuff and talk about something important for a sec, we're stalking people or something | 14:12 |
| drazak | I don't think so | 14:12 |
| drazak | is juri_ a buffalo native? | 14:12 |
| ParahSailin | paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=2258996.2259008 | 14:12 |
| kanzure | no idea | 14:12 |
| drazak | ex-canadian | 14:12 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F2258996.2259008 | 14:12 |
| nmz787_i | Daeken: degassing chamber is a bit expensive, you don't think? this can just be a metal canister, or a piece of PVC pipe and some rubber and plywood | 14:13 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: that's the chamber and pump | 14:13 |
| nmz787_i | .g black box labs plasma microwave | 14:13 |
| yoleaux | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-R0_nXpc7I | 14:13 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 14:13 |
| yoleaux | Homemade Oxygen Plasma Etcher & PDMS to Glass Bonding Test - Black Box Labs - YouTube | 14:13 |
| drazak | kanzure: what've you been doing anyway? still working on that markup language? | 14:14 |
| nmz787_i | I guess I am skewed since I got a nice vac pump from craigslist for cheap | 14:14 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: oh yeah, you can do this much cheaper getting used stuff | 14:14 |
| Daeken | but that's hit or miss. i'm going to have a complete list of "go here and buy these things, and you can do this" ... if people want to swap in used parts instead, that's cool | 14:14 |
| Daeken | but i want a baseline that Just Works (TM) | 14:14 |
| nmz787_i | Daeken: also i'd look into a reflow hotplate, rather than something with just a knob | 14:15 |
| kanzure | drazak: bitcoin | 14:15 |
| nmz787_i | or at least something with a digital readout | 14:15 |
| drazak | kanzure: oh yeah bitcoin is cool now I guess | 14:15 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: hm, good idea. | 14:15 |
| Daeken | i'll hunt around for something cheap | 14:15 |
| drazak | wish I got in on that shit in 2011 when diablod3 wouldn't stop talking about it | 14:15 |
| nmz787_i | Daeken: something like this http://www.instructables.com/id/Closing-the-Loop-on-Surface-Mount-Soldering/ | 14:17 |
| kanzure | drazak: link to aluminum extruder please | 14:21 |
| drazak | kanzure: its not open source | 14:22 |
| drazak | sorry :( | 14:22 |
| nmz787_i | there's the printer that uses jewelers metal | 14:23 |
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| juri_ | kanzure: pong. | 14:28 |
| juri_ | SEM? | 14:28 |
| juri_ | aluminium printing? | 14:28 |
| juri_ | not open source? | 14:29 |
| juri_ | DIAF. | 14:29 |
| juri_ | with your family. and pets. and family's pets. | 14:29 |
| juri_ | er. um. i mean, "hi.". ;) | 14:33 |
| kanzure | had he said it was not open source, i would not have guessed your name | 14:34 |
| kanzure | i apologize | 14:34 |
| juri_ | not necessary. and, i'm based in DC. and female. ;P | 14:34 |
| kanzure | well maybe you had another person on the project or something | 14:35 |
| kanzure | and maybe this other person also isn't female | 14:35 |
| kanzure | as for location, i can't explain that | 14:35 |
| kanzure | 14:16 <+sbp> huh, 99% of the energy from a supernova comes out as neutrinos | 14:43 |
| kanzure | 14:16 <+kanzure> astrophysicists call this star fart | 14:43 |
| kanzure | 14:16 <+grrl> no, they don't. | 14:43 |
| kanzure | 14:16 <+kanzure> yes they are. | 14:43 |
| drazak | juri_: sorry! | 14:43 |
| kanzure | no that was my fault | 14:43 |
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| juri_ | its ok. i'm not actually that mean, i just like to make my open source only principals clear. ;) | 14:45 |
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| juri_ | I'm reconditioning an SEM, and setting up for diamond like carbon deposition. and building an 8'x4'x2.5' printer. | 14:46 |
| drazak | juri_: yeah I know what this community is like :)_ | 14:48 |
| drazak | I used to hang out here a lot and had a ton of diybio posts and shit before I got old and crusty | 14:48 |
| drazak | man that was a long time ago | 14:49 |
| nmz787_i | I shall soon have room for an SEM! | 14:52 |
| juri_ | in four years, it will be time to shoot this engineer. ;) | 14:52 |
| maaku | juri_: diamond-like carbon deposition? what process? | 15:02 |
| drazak | juri_: apparently they're having a problem with the nozzle not lasting long enough, heh | 15:02 |
| drazak | is your aluminum extruder open source? | 15:02 |
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| juri_ | indeed. | 15:04 |
| juri_ | it's on my wiki. | 15:04 |
| drazak | ship the link :) | 15:05 |
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| juri_ | and, as they are closed source, they get no hints from me. ;) | 15:05 |
| drazak | that actually seems quite contrary to open source dogma | 15:06 |
| juri_ | I don't have to consult for free. ;P | 15:06 |
| juri_ | http://fosscar.faikvm.com/trac/wiki/HotEnd | 15:06 |
| drazak | nobody is asking you to consult haha | 15:06 |
| drazak | juri_: interesting anyway | 15:09 |
| drazak | I have no idea what their nozzle design is | 15:09 |
| juri_ | I know what my plans are.. but i'm still working on them. | 15:10 |
| juri_ | I'll get it right. | 15:10 |
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| Daeken | ParahSailin: do you know how silicon nitride is added to a wafer, for use as a hard mask? is it via a chemical reaction with the wafer, or is it added as a film/coating? | 15:26 |
| Daeken | i'm having a hard time actually figuring out how people do it | 15:27 |
| Daeken | i wish you could directly etch with KOH, with some resistant photoresist, but i can't find anything that will work | 15:31 |
| nmz787_i | Daeken: CVD | 15:31 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: that ... seems a bit complex | 15:32 |
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| Daeken | is there anything that can be used for direct silicon etching while masking with photoresist? HNA, KOH, TMAH, etc all seem to require a hard mask. | 15:42 |
| Daeken | http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/16/2/012 holy shit. | 15:47 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1088%2F0960-1317%2F16%2F2%2F012 | 15:47 |
| Daeken | we don't need to do wafer etching at all | 15:47 |
| Daeken | we -can- do multiple layers of su-8 | 15:47 |
| Daeken | that'll give us ridiculous precision. score. | 15:49 |
| kanzure | .title http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/16/2/012 | 15:50 |
| yoleaux | Fabrication of multi-layer SU-8 microstructures - Abstract - Journal of Micromechanics and Microengineering - IOPscience | 15:50 |
| Daeken | if anyone has access to grab that paper, it'd be a big help. i'm pretty sure i get the concept, but the particulars matter | 15:51 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/16/2/012/pdf/0960-1317_16_2_012.pdf | 15:52 |
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| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ae5186c2b554ac1925bfe7aff0f4b0b.pdf | 15:53 |
| nmz787_i | "First, layers of thin (SU-8 2010) and thick (SU-8 2100) SU-8 photoresists of different thicknesses were coated, patterned and examined to verify the manufacturer’s (MicroChem Corp.) recommended protocols. Next, alternating layers of SU-8 2010 and SU-8 2100 were spin coated, followed by soft-bake, UVexposure and post-exposure bake steps. Finally, the multiple SU-8 layers were developed simultaneously. This multi-level process was re | 15:53 |
| Daeken | i <3 paperbot | 15:53 |
| Daeken | man, that's so cool. so we'll be able to do any number of depths we need, just develop at the end :) | 15:54 |
| Daeken | that simplifies things a tremendous amount. | 15:54 |
| nmz787_i | "Despite its popularity, SU-8 photoresists pose multiple processing challenges that hinder reproducibility and limit potential applications [5, 10, 11]. Differences in exposure (exposure non-uniformities) throughout the photoresist layer can lead to partial cross-linking (curing) of the resist, residual stress build-up and poor adhesion to the underlying silicon wafer, which can subsequently result in feature degradation, crack-like d | 15:55 |
| Daeken | nmz787_i: yeah, there are ... a lot of problems with su-8, to put it mildly | 15:55 |
| Daeken | but it's damn simple, so i'm hopeful. | 15:55 |
| nmz787_i | fig 6 B is interesting | 15:56 |
| Daeken | i doubt we'll get more than 2-3 uses out of a given master, using su-8. | 15:56 |
| nmz787_i | i have everything needed I think except for fresh SU-8 | 15:56 |
| nmz787_i | but ssu-8 as compatibiity problems when used directly | 15:56 |
| nmz787_i | at least for chemistry | 15:56 |
| nmz787_i | can't remember about biocompatibility | 15:57 |
| Daeken | how do you mean? | 15:57 |
| Daeken | figure 8 is ... damn impressive, honestly. i can't believe how good that looks. | 15:58 |
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| nmz787_i | fig 8 isn't terribly interesting though | 16:00 |
| Daeken | given the actual use of the multi-level technique, it's pretty much a perfect fit for what we're doing | 16:01 |
| nmz787_i | too bad they didn't section the resist afterwards to show cross-sections | 16:01 |
| Daeken | we have one thin layer for reaction chambers, and one thick layer for channels | 16:01 |
| nmz787_i | again, what about chemistry | 16:02 |
| Daeken | what about it? we're just pouring PDMS on this | 16:02 |
| nmz787_i | how will you do that for the inner layers? | 16:02 |
| Daeken | shouldn't have any adverse reaction -- SU-8 and PDMS is super common | 16:02 |
| Daeken | there are no inner layers | 16:02 |
| nmz787_i | (4:01:24 PM) Daeken: we have one thin layer for reaction chambers, and one thick layer for channels | 16:02 |
| Daeken | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/synthesis/Synthesis%20-%20Microfluidic%20PicoArray%20synthesis%20of%20oligodeoxynucleotides%20and%20simultaneous%20assembling%20of%20multiple%20DNA%20sequences%20(10%20kb).pdf check out figure 1A | 16:03 |
| Daeken | i'm using that as the rough mental model of the mask | 16:03 |
| Daeken | the reaction chambers there are 15um deep, and the channels are 150um deep | 16:03 |
| nmz787_i | that looks like a single layer with a hole punch and cover slip | 16:04 |
| Daeken | so in our case, we'll have two layers (going by their numbers -- ours will be different): 15um for the chamber mask, and 150um for the channel mask | 16:04 |
| nmz787_i | why not just adjust the exposure time? | 16:04 |
| nmz787_i | greyscale it | 16:04 |
| Daeken | have a paper on adjusting exposure time to achieve different thicknesses of su-8? | 16:04 |
| Daeken | haven't read anything on that. | 16:05 |
| nmz787_i | there's likely a few on diyhpl.us | 16:05 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/ | 16:05 |
| nmz787_i | just google greyscale mems | 16:05 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/SU-8/ | 16:05 |
| Daeken | cool, thanks | 16:06 |
| nmz787_i | greyscale mems site:diyhpl.us | 16:06 |
| nmz787_i | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Gray-scale%20photolithography%20using%20microfluidic%20photomasks.pdf | 16:06 |
| nmz787_i | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Low-cost%20maskless%20grayscale%20lithography%20using%20a%20new%20photo-definable%20polyimide%20for%20polymer%20MEMS%20applications.pdf | 16:06 |
| Daeken | huh, that's quite neat. | 16:07 |
| Daeken | wonder how the result compares to a multi-layer structure | 16:08 |
| Daeken | nice thing about this is that it allows for a single mask to be used, and fewer total steps. definitely worth trying out | 16:09 |
| Daeken | cheers. | 16:09 |
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| Daeken | think i'm going to order some supplies and make up test photomasks, and see what comes out of it. refine the process a bit | 16:55 |
| Daeken | should be interesting to see | 16:55 |
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| kanzure | astrophysics source code http://ascl.net/ | 20:20 |
| kanzure | http://ascl.net/code/v/1080 "A python package built to simplify common tasks that are often done with stellar model grids, such as simulating synthetic stellar populations, plotting evolution tracks or isochrones, or estimating the physical properties of a star given photometric and/or spectroscopic observations." | 20:21 |
| kanzure | "The python scripts are completely automatic and can be used to rapidly classify galaxy cluster morphology for large numbers of clusters without human intervention." | 20:21 |
| kanzure | http://ascl.net/1502.004 "ADAM (All-Data Asteroid Modeling) models asteroid shape reconstruction from observations. Developed in MATLAB with core routines in C, its features include general nonconvex and non-starlike parametric 3D shape supports and reconstruction of asteroid shape from any combination of lightcurves, adaptive optics images, HST/FGS data, disk-resolved thermal images, interferometry, and range-Doppler radar images. ADAM ... | 20:22 |
| kanzure | ... does not require boundary contour extraction for reconstruction and can be run in parallel." | 20:22 |
| kanzure | http://ascl.net/1007.006 "AMIGA is a publicly available adaptive mesh refinement code for (dissipationless) cosmological simulations. It combines an N-body code with an Eulerian grid-based solver for the full set of magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) equations in order to conduct simulations of dark matter, baryons and magnetic fields in a self-consistent way in a fully cosmological setting. Our numerical scheme includes effective methods to ... | 20:23 |
| kanzure | ... ensure proper capturing of shocks and highly supersonic flows and a divergence-free magnetic field. The high accuracy of the code is demonstrated by a number of numerical tests." | 20:23 |
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| Daeken | kanzure: are there any plans for the mask designs of the synthesizer? | 21:28 |
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