| --- Log opened Wed Mar 25 00:00:32 2015 | ||
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| archels | http://science.slashdot.org/story/15/03/25/0241208/draconian-australian-research-law-hits-scientists | 04:50 |
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| mosasaur | zapping the brain with utrasound, could it have saved Terry? | 06:13 |
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| FourFire | mosasaur, in 40 years, maybe | 06:50 |
| FourFire | we'd need to know exactly which parts of which cells were decaying and an accustically correct map of his brain, and the emitters in sufficient numbers, orientation and prescision | 06:51 |
| FourFire | then maybe | 06:51 |
| FourFire | acoustically* | 06:51 |
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| mosasaur | FourFire: by lowering the blood brain barrier temporarily using ultrasound, some macrophages gain access. Why would that be localized? | 07:00 |
| FourFire | mosasaur, oh so you already have a magical cure | 07:02 |
| FourFire | ok, I thought using ultrasound was supposed to be the active mechanism of thecure | 07:02 |
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| delinquentme | MBPs truly max out at 16 gigs of ram ?? | 07:15 |
| FourFire | yep | 07:15 |
| FourFire | who's heard of 32GB right? | 07:16 |
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| kanzure | FourFire: yes, i use 32 GB | 07:39 |
| kanzure | FourFire: you are wrong, people used ultrasound to destroy brain tumors 6 years ago, not 40 years ago | 07:40 |
| FourFire | kanzure, uhh, first I predicted that it would be possible to do this 40 years from now, maybe, second Pterry died from alzheimers not cancer | 07:42 |
| andytoshi | hi kanzure, iirc you have some means of crawling bitcointalk.org | 07:45 |
| andytoshi | is this easily adaptable to give me a filtered view of the site? | 07:45 |
| kanzure | i believe fenn has an 80 GB dump somewhere | 07:45 |
| kanzure | you would probably have to just grep through that | 07:45 |
| andytoshi | hmm, what i was thinking about was the using actual crawling code to directly filter html since it seems to understand content.. | 07:46 |
| kanzure | ah no, i never wrote that crawler | 07:46 |
| delinquentme | crawler? | 07:47 |
| delinquentme | I wrote it. everyone ever | 07:47 |
| kanzure | http://www.mmbios.org/index.php/computational-methods-for-spatially-realistic-microphysiological-simulations-2015 | 07:47 |
| andytoshi | np, i'll just stop going on the site until i feel less irritated at it | 07:47 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, pm on gmarl | 07:47 |
| kanzure | some people ganging up on henry markram http://www.nature.com/news/rethinking-the-brain-1.17168 | 07:49 |
| kanzure | "The depth of the governance issues are exemplified by this statement in the report, which refers to the project’s de facto leader, Henry Markram of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne. “The co-ordinating scientist … is not only a member of all decision-making, executive and management bodies within the HBP, but also chairs them and supervises the administrative processes supporting these bodies. Furthermore, he ... | 07:49 |
| kanzure | ... is a member of all the advisory boards and reports to them at the same time. In addition, he appoints the members of the management team, and leads the operational project management.”" | 07:49 |
| kanzure | vim has moved to github https://github.com/vim/vim | 07:51 |
| kanzure | day 2 http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/24/y-combinator-demos/ | 07:51 |
| kanzure | nexttravel is.. yeah that's enterprise.. | 07:52 |
| -!- CaptHindisght is now known as CaptHindsight | 07:52 | |
| kanzure | transcriptic only had $100k in sales in 2014? wtf | 07:52 |
| kanzure | "Techlist – AngelList For Asia. Unlike Silicon Valley, Asia is fragmented and traditional press isn’t doing a good job of covering the tech startups in Asia. Techlist connects startups to investors [Disclosure: Techlist is a potential competitor to TechCrunch and CrunchBase]. The Techlist blog attracts nearly 2 million readers with a $3 million run rate. All startups are covered in English so investors can read about them on a global ... | 07:53 |
| kanzure | ... level. According to Techlist, there are over 800 investors that visit the site." | 07:54 |
| kanzure | "Open Listings – Self-Service Real Estate. Over 67% of homes are sold to repeat buyers who are already familiar with the process. The Open Listings platform eliminates the need for the real estate agent by providing the paperwork and giving the buyer the 3% fee they’d normally give to a real estate agent." | 07:54 |
| kanzure | "GrubMarket – Online Farmer’s Market. GrubMarket provides on an online marketplace where consumers can buy food straight from farmers. GrubMarket then picks up the food and delivers it. By cutting out the wholesalers, distributors, and grocers, GrubMarket can take a big margin while making food cheaper and paying farmers more." | 07:56 |
| kanzure | "KickPay – A Marketplace For Buying And Selling Invoices. It takes the average invoice 48 days to get paid, depriving businesses of the cash they need to operate. KickPay lets individual investors buy up these invoices at a slight discount, getting businesses capital instantly. Investors see liquidity within two months and can make a double-digit percentage return. The market for KickPay is already huge, with $300 billion in invoices ... | 07:57 |
| kanzure | ... bought each year through a terrible interface full of contracts and paperwork." | 07:57 |
| kanzure | "DroneBase – On-Demand Drone Services. Customers push a button, and DroneBase dispatches a local drone pilot with their own drone to come capture imagery, video, maps, and analysis for any project, like construction or infrastructure management. This lets big commercial clients avoid buying drones, employing pilots, or paying suppliers. DroneBase’s service can significantly undercut satellites, planes, and helicopters, while getting ... | 07:57 |
| kanzure | ... companies better data faster." | 07:57 |
| kanzure | "Labdoor – Quality-Tested Online Marketplace For Supplements. The FDA doesn’t test supplements, and Labdoor says 79% of supplements fail quality control. Labdoor does its own testing so it can tell you what’s actually in Centrum or Muscle Milk even if the labels are wrong. The startup believes that user reviews aren’t enough to convince people what health products to buy, so it wants to be the quality control for everything ... | 07:57 |
| kanzure | ... important." | 07:57 |
| kanzure | "Bonfire – Full-Service Request For Proposal Management – $3 trillion is spent each year through the Request For Proposal (RFP) system. When a business needs to buy something that costs over $50,000 they get RFP bids from potential supplies, and have to decide which to go with. That clumsy comparison process can take months. Bonfire manages all the RFPs for a business, determining which offer is best, and informing the buyer. ... | 07:58 |
| kanzure | ... Bonfire is currently selling its service for $5,000 a year to large companies and governments, but envisions an even bigger business in intelligence about what buyers and suppliers should do based on the data it gleams." | 07:58 |
| kanzure | "EquipmentShare – Airbnb for Construction Equipment. Trillions of dollars of construction equipment sits idle all the time. 75% at any given time. EquipmentShare lets contractors rent out their idle equipment, and the startup keeps 20%. It can undercut traditional equipment renters by 30% where contractors spend an average of $900,000 a year. EquipmentShare could make it more affordable for smaller independent contractors to buy or ... | 07:58 |
| kanzure | ... rent the equipment they need, and help them create sustainable side businesses renting their cherry-pickers and cement-mixers." | 07:58 |
| kanzure | well.. okay. | 07:59 |
| justanotheruser | ycombinator loves funding X for Y | 08:03 |
| kanzure | just wait until they start funding "X without Y" | 08:03 |
| justanotheruser | Airbnb for Construction Equipmnt | 08:04 |
| kanzure | "Trillions of dollars of construction equipment sits idle all the time." | 08:04 |
| kanzure | .loud | 08:04 |
| kanzure | "TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT SITS IDLE ALL THE TIME" | 08:04 |
| mosasaur | I like DroneBase, especially if they could transport small items from A to B | 08:05 |
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| kanzure | why not just give it to a shipping person instead? | 08:05 |
| kanzure | i mean why have a drone + a person come out, when you could just pay for the person? | 08:05 |
| justanotheruser | because the human doesn't do as much work this way | 08:06 |
| justanotheruser | but I still think that wolud be replaced by self driving cars before it can get anywhere | 08:07 |
| kanzure | "pffft posers, they are totally going to get replaced by SELF-DRIVING drones, obviously" | 08:09 |
| FourFire | heh | 08:20 |
| FourFire | best to get into the business asap so they can own that | 08:20 |
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| mosasaur | patent some avian transport standard | 08:30 |
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| delinquentme | “Uber, the world’s largest taxi company, owns no vehicles. Facebook, the world’s most popular media owner, creates no content. Alibaba, the most valuable retailer, has no inventory. And Airbnb, the world’s largest accommodation provider, owns no real estate. Something interesting is happening.” ~Tom Goodwin #futurehunt | 08:45 |
| kanzure | why is that a surprise though | 08:47 |
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| CaptHindsight | http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150325-qingdao-unique-to-3d-print-skin-and-corneas-within-one-year.html | 09:23 |
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| CaptHindsight | just a fancy dual extruder on a 3-axis stage, but I don't hear about much of this in the US | 09:26 |
| CaptHindsight | is tissue engineering done quietly in the USA? or | 09:26 |
| kanzure | CaptHindsight: stalk jordan miller | 09:28 |
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| kanzure | "Autonomous micro aerial robots can operate in three-dimensional, indoor and outdoor environments, and have applications to search and rescue, first response and precision farming. I will describe the challenges in developing small, agile robots and the algorithmic challenges in the areas of (a) control and planning, (b) state estimation and mapping, and (c) coordinating large teams of robots. (Vijay Kumar)" | 09:56 |
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| nmz787_i | 10^18 atoms per cm^3 | 11:17 |
| nmz787_i | assuming a 10nm atom to atom spacing | 11:19 |
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| nmz787_i | err, maybe 5nm atom to atom | 11:19 |
| nmz787_i | (10nm x 10nm x 10nm cube) | 11:19 |
| fenn | i like the idea of labdoor.com but they totally flubbed the fish oil analysis | 11:19 |
| nmz787_i | 10^18 == exa | 11:20 |
| nmz787_i | friggin animal rights clogging up my international unit search for peta prefix | 11:20 |
| fenn | they rank "double strength" or whatever ethyl-esterified fatty acids alongside actual fish oil, and then claim the "double strength" is better value and higher quality, even though it's actually a different product entirely (and bad for you) | 11:21 |
| chris_99 | nmz787_i, just got the ToF sensor working on the Pi :) https://www.anfractuosity.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/IMG_9324-1024x683.jpg | 11:21 |
| fenn | also they don't give the oxidation values for most fish oils, which is like the only thing that really matters when comparing lab results | 11:22 |
| fenn | you'd need to do a pretty heavy sampling to get meaningful oxidation levels though | 11:22 |
| nmz787_i | “One in four cars in the world have Delphi architecture. We ship more computers than HP and Dell combined.” | 11:23 |
| fenn | it just annoys me that they sort everything by one aggregate score, and there's no way to see a table of data | 11:24 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: neat, seeming good so far | 11:24 |
| nmz787_i | ? | 11:24 |
| chris_99 | yeah it seemed to measure up to 25cm iirc | 11:24 |
| nmz787_i | i take it it's the small 1cm square-ish red board? | 11:24 |
| chris_99 | yup | 11:24 |
| chris_99 | i had to use some logic level converters as it uses 2.8V logic | 11:24 |
| nmz787_i | you have a scope probe attached to the breadboard too? | 11:24 |
| chris_99 | yeah | 11:24 |
| nmz787_i | ah, is the rpi 3.3 or 1.8? | 11:25 |
| chris_99 | 3.3 | 11:25 |
| chris_99 | i powered the circuit from the 5V power lines from the Pi, using a LD1117 | 11:25 |
| nmz787_i | and you want to use this to look at the alcohol-gravity-meter tip? | 11:25 |
| chris_99 | yup | 11:26 |
| nmz787_i | cool | 11:26 |
| nmz787_i | non-contact == good | 11:26 |
| chris_99 | non-contact? | 11:29 |
| nmz787_i | you're sterilizing the gravity meter once right, then adding it to the brew and not opening it up until it's done right? so you don't have to contact the brew during sensing | 11:31 |
| nmz787_i | .title http://www.femm.info/wiki/License | 11:35 |
| yoleaux | Finite Element Method Magnetics: License | 11:35 |
| nmz787_i | archels: heard of that? ^ | 11:35 |
| chris_99 | yup that's right nmz787 | 11:37 |
| fenn | so i saw a guy and his girlfriend by the bay with a long stick holding their phone to take a photo of them. pretty sure that's the "killer app" for drones | 11:42 |
| nmz787_i | whee, I have a spectrometer in the mail! (365 - 1100 nm, 3 nm resolution) | 11:43 |
| fenn | O RLY | 11:43 |
| nmz787_i | i think i read korea is going to start taxing a certain kind of "selfie stick" | 11:44 |
| chris_99 | is that the hammatsu | 11:44 |
| chris_99 | one | 11:44 |
| nmz787_i | nah uses a Sony CCD | 11:44 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.science-surplus.com/products/spectrometers | 11:44 |
| nmz787_i | refurb medical or science parts | 11:44 |
| chris_99 | i need one that does around 2000nm iirc | 11:44 |
| nmz787_i | will give me something to compare openspectrometer to once i get around to that | 11:44 |
| nmz787_i | hey have 1800l/mm | 11:45 |
| nmz787_i | for $200 | 11:45 |
| chris_99 | ah yeah i've seen those blue ones | 11:45 |
| nmz787_i | they added on another $100 or so for the 600 l/mm grating | 11:45 |
| nmz787_i | so i imagine to get the 2400 l/mm it would be similar | 11:45 |
| nmz787_i | then they give instructions for calibrating (need a lightsource with known spectral lines) | 11:46 |
| chris_99 | ah, yeah such as a sodium light or something? | 11:47 |
| fenn | "a basic order sorting filter to reduce stray light from higher diffraction orders" didn't even know that was possible | 11:47 |
| fenn | is it just a spatial filter? like a plate with a hole in it? | 11:47 |
| chris_99 | i found someone selling liquid lenses for £40, i'm not entirely sure what i need one for, but i might mount one over one of my Pi cameras | 11:49 |
| fenn | oh nevermind it's just a lowpass filter | 11:49 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: yeah something like that, or a laser | 11:54 |
| chris_99 | yeah i heard people apparently use them for lasers, but for what? | 11:54 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: yeah I think it's just a baffle... the higher orders have more angle to them, so you just block those orders out | 11:54 |
| nmz787_i | some spectrometers try to use 2D sensors to get all the orders then integrate the signals later in software | 11:55 |
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| nmz787_i | "Lithography is a communication channel specialized in delivering high-definition, high-density physical images to silicon wafers. Parallels can be drawn to communication theory, where key innovations have steadily improved the efficiency of digital communication within increasingly precious bandwidth. Several recent lithography process innovations will be outlined in terms of communication theory concepts, and their impact on economi | 11:57 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.eda.org/edps/EDP2011/Papers/FINAL%20Mike%20Rieger%20Presentation%20v2.pdf | 11:58 |
| nmz787_i | https://www.avs.org/Meetings-Exhibits | 12:02 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 12:02 |
| yoleaux | nmz787_i: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. | 12:02 |
| nmz787_i | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_la8gelzsKw | 12:03 |
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| nmz787_i | "they had vacuum cleaner hoses comin out of their noses, and nothin where their mouths should be" | 12:03 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 12:04 |
| yoleaux | Donald Duck's Astro-duck Song - YouTube | 12:04 |
| nmz787_i | does anyone else remember that album? 'Goin Quackers' | 12:04 |
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| fenn | wow, they're pretty confident in their lab's ceiling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chip-pan-fire.jpg | 12:08 |
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| fenn | egads | 12:27 |
| fenn | "Lab-tested folic acid content ranged from -94% to +306% vs. the products' stated label claims." | 12:27 |
| fenn | on a survey of prenatal vitamins | 12:27 |
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| kanzure | mark is bad at time zones | 12:38 |
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| archels | nmz787_i: mh, 2D only... apart from the GUI, doesn't seem to do anything FEniCS (in combination with some other free/open tools) can't | 13:43 |
| archels | although it's nice I guess if deriving variational equations isn't your cup of tea | 13:44 |
| archels | (which FEniCS makes you do) | 13:44 |
| kanzure | cryopreservation institute | 13:48 |
| kanzure | .wik cas9 nuclease | 13:48 |
| yoleaux | "Cas9 (CRISPR associated protein 9) is an RNA-guided DNA endonuclease enzyme associated with the CRISPR (Clustered Regularly Interspersed Palindromic Repeats) adaptive immunity system in Streptococcus pyogenes, among other bacteria." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cas9 | 13:48 |
| kanzure | osfund 0~transhumanist vc firm from the braintree dude | 13:52 |
| kanzure | aquaculture idea: ant farm glass structure for roots. observe fungus. measure root depth. measure fungus growth. | 14:05 |
| kanzure | there should be long-term soil bonds so that insurance subsidies of farming are more long-term. | 14:16 |
| kanzure | could just feed crickets and compost to trout | 14:24 |
| justanotheruser | My YC2016 submission: fantasy football for YC startups | 14:31 |
| chris_99 | heh | 14:35 |
| dingo | https://pypi.python.org/pypi/Contextual | 14:35 |
| nmz787_i | there is that cricket protein bar on kickstarter now | 14:38 |
| nmz787_i | or indigogo or whatever the latest hip crowdfunding site it | 14:38 |
| nmz787_i | is | 14:38 |
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| Lemminkainen | paperbot http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-25974-9_14 | 17:45 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/86bdaa2ae58458fe178a3fb85b9b438e.txt | 17:46 |
| Lemminkainen | yay | 17:46 |
| kanzure | you need to believe in paperbot for its magic to work | 17:51 |
| Lemminkainen | oh I believe in her | 17:52 |
| kanzure | well, maybe we need to move on to human blood | 17:53 |
| Lemminkainen | but perhaps it's just as well right now--that paper was for procrastinatory purposes | 17:53 |
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| kanzure | ParahSailin: ever work with mark hamalainen when you were at methuselah foundation? | 18:39 |
| ParahSailin | he was gone before that point | 18:39 |
| kanzure | this explains why he didn't know you | 18:39 |
| ParahSailin | whats he doing now? | 18:39 |
| kanzure | halcyon molecular, synthego for 3 years, quit synthego and is now doing aquaponic analytics (something about arduinos) | 18:40 |
| kanzure | and immune path before halcyon | 18:40 |
| ParahSailin | yeah halcyon is what he was doing when i was there | 18:40 |
| ParahSailin | i think halcyon before immunepath | 18:40 |
| kanzure | claims he was in the first round for cambrian genomics | 18:41 |
| ParahSailin | interesting | 18:42 |
| ParahSailin | are they making any progress? | 18:43 |
| ParahSailin | did they actually make a glowing plant? | 18:43 |
| kanzure | working machine | 18:43 |
| kanzure | dunno what "working" means though | 18:43 |
| Lemminkainen | the plants glow | 18:46 |
| Lemminkainen | kinda | 18:46 |
| Lemminkainen | you have to squint at them in a dark room | 18:50 |
| kanzure | or take a 30 second exposure photograph -_- | 18:52 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: i thought arduino was "processing" | 18:54 |
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| fenn | .g "osfund 0" | 20:22 |
| yoleaux | No results found. | 20:22 |
| fenn | i guess it's just "osfund" | 20:23 |
| fenn | http://osfund.co/ | 20:23 |
| fenn | "seeking founders who see beyond our lifetimes" is not transhumanist at all... | 20:24 |
| fenn | hum well there is this at least: http://osfund.co/companies/264/human-longevity-inc | 20:28 |
| ParahSailin | i know a guy there | 20:30 |
| kanzure | the 0~ was because for some reason parens don't work when i am mobile. my keyboard sends parens to the phone, but they don't show up on the server for some reason. | 20:32 |
| kanzure | and then i gave up on the 1~ at the end and deleted that. | 20:33 |
| fenn | they have a pretty cool portfolio so far | 20:34 |
| fenn | who knew the guys who make "just mayo" are doing so much molecular biology... | 20:34 |
| kanzure | transcriptic video http://avideos.5min.com/134/5187134/518713362_4.mp4 from http://techcrunch.com/2015/03/25/a-look-inside-transcriptics-new-biotech-testing-facility/ | 20:38 |
| kanzure | also the cryopreservation foundation is apparently doing ~$300k grants | 20:47 |
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| nmz787_i | kanzure: Arduino is an IDE that nicely obscures a bunch of ugly C and C++ macros and standard lib includes and the 'wiring' library as well (which is the API that the 'Arduino' library works through) | 20:51 |
| t12 | lol what | 20:52 |
| t12 | reinventing the pipetting robot is losing game | 20:52 |
| kanzure | they are not reinventing pipetting robots | 20:52 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: Paul Stoffregren would be a good person to stalk to know more about Arduino, as he's ported it to some newer faster chips (the teensy series of modules) | 20:52 |
| t12 | looks like it from that video | 20:52 |
| t12 | lots of house built 80/20 thrown together stuff | 20:52 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: i think jonathan cline is right | 20:52 |
| nmz787_i | and called it teensyduino | 20:52 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: he is kind of off-topic though, for the forum he's posting to | 20:53 |
| kanzure | t12: yes so they were reverse engineering a tecan for shits and giggles? come on. bullshit. | 20:53 |
| t12 | i dunno | 20:53 |
| t12 | freedom evos arent that expensive | 20:53 |
| nmz787_i | if timing instability bites you, you either get bitten and move on, get a logic analyzer (for what, $10 or $20 ) or oscope | 20:53 |
| t12 | nor are bravos | 20:53 |
| t12 | i understand tricking out some existing stuff | 20:53 |
| t12 | building that stuff from scratch is intensely annoying | 20:54 |
| nmz787_i | and you find the timing glitch and fix (with better C/C++, or even inline ASM) | 20:54 |
| nmz787_i | or again, move on | 20:54 |
| kanzure | t12: often building things from scratch is cheaper and more reliable. | 20:54 |
| t12 | cheaper maybe | 20:54 |
| t12 | dunno about more reliable | 20:54 |
| kanzure | who the hell wants to maintain 500 different machines by different shitty manufacturers? | 20:54 |
| t12 | not cheaper if you count labor | 20:54 |
| nmz787_i | obv it would suck to keep refactoring and porting, but realistically it is likely fine for the projects diybio discusses | 20:54 |
| t12 | maybe cheaper if you can amortize over 10y | 20:54 |
| t12 | noone | 20:55 |
| t12 | but is anyone soloing it as a company | 20:55 |
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| t12 | going to outdo 500 vendors, at once, at their own game? | 20:55 |
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| nmz787_i | https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/teensyduino.html | 20:55 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: i have no idea what you think i'm talking about | 20:55 |
| nmz787_i | https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_download.html | 20:55 |
| kanzure | t12: i also suspect they have their own particular engineering requirements | 20:55 |
| t12 | thats likely true | 20:55 |
| kanzure | if i had to reverse engineer software from 50-500 different vendors, i'd probably go on a rampage | 20:56 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: oh what are you talking about then? | 20:56 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: all that c++ talk doesn't make sense to me. it was "processing", not c++. | 20:56 |
| t12 | redoing their software | 20:56 |
| t12 | i understand that part definately | 20:56 |
| kanzure | reverse engineering and redoing are different | 20:56 |
| t12 | depends on which you care about | 20:57 |
| kanzure | who are you | 20:57 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: i think processing was just the web interface glue for artists to get into using arduino | 20:57 |
| kanzure | ... web interface? | 20:57 |
| nmz787_i | if anything it's probably an arduino (c++) library called processing | 20:57 |
| nmz787_i | yeah processing is for like doing artful display stuff | 20:57 |
| nmz787_i | interactive webpages | 20:57 |
| kanzure | that's not what i asked | 20:57 |
| t12 | at least they do have a bravo on top of that | 20:57 |
| nmz787_i | http://playground.arduino.cc/interfacing/processing | 20:58 |
| nmz787_i | "Processing is an open source language/ development tool for writing programs in othercomputers. Useful when you want those other computers to "talk" with an Arduino, for instance to display or save some data collected by the Arduino." | 20:58 |
| ParahSailin | the existing pipette robots are crap though | 20:58 |
| nmz787_i | "This library allows you to control an Arduino board from Processing without writing code for the Arduino." | 20:58 |
| maaku | oh i thought you were talking about processing.org | 20:58 |
| t12 | the best pipetting diy i can come up with | 20:58 |
| t12 | is taking existing high channel heads and bolting them to big 6axis arms | 20:58 |
| nmz787_i | "Configure Processing for serial: http://processing.org/reference/libraries/serial/ In Processing, open one of the examples that comes with with the Arduino library." | 20:59 |
| t12 | but thats not cheaper | 20:59 |
| ParahSailin | its not diy though, they have millions of cash | 20:59 |
| t12 | work envelope is huge | 20:59 |
| ParahSailin | enough to do things right | 20:59 |
| t12 | millions is nothing in life science automation | 20:59 |
| ParahSailin | life science industry is a wasteful racket as it stands now | 21:00 |
| t12 | agree | 21:00 |
| t12 | but theres real market forces that drive that | 21:00 |
| t12 | mainly low customer count | 21:00 |
| ParahSailin | nih grant trough | 21:00 |
| t12 | dont get me wrong the automation market is way stuck in 1990 | 21:01 |
| t12 | but pennypinching it on capital equipment and operating costs isnt the answer really | 21:01 |
| fenn | derr... so those robots cost ~100k new, how is labor expensive again? | 21:08 |
| fenn | penny pinching my ass | 21:09 |
| Lemminkainen | $100K robot + $5K worth of 5 peoples' time to set it up + $10K/year maintenance + $5K time/month to keep it running | 21:09 |
| Lemminkainen | compounded by management that doesn't know what the robot's fully loaded costs are, can't move their project planning to utilize it effectively, and understands old methods better so naturally reverts to them | 21:10 |
| t12 | if you're using any of those machines in high throughput youre moving more reagent through it than its cost.. really quickly | 21:10 |
| t12 | reagent and tip | 21:10 |
| Lemminkainen | particularly when they're angling for a promotion, they'll rely on well-known methods instead of take the time to get a robot going for fear of having a project failure on their career record | 21:10 |
| fenn | you guys are totally missing the point | 21:11 |
| t12 | i agree all those costs and issues suck | 21:11 |
| t12 | but diying it | 21:11 |
| t12 | doesnt solve them | 21:11 |
| Lemminkainen | fenn which point are we missing? | 21:11 |
| Lemminkainen | please be explicit for us dear doddering fools | 21:11 |
| fenn | facebook makes their own servers, why? | 21:11 |
| fenn | because it does exactly what they want, without any bullshit markup | 21:11 |
| t12 | and did they do that out the door | 21:12 |
| t12 | with their first 10m | 21:12 |
| fenn | eh.. well, google did | 21:12 |
| Lemminkainen | but fenn biologists are afraid of math and programming | 21:12 |
| Lemminkainen | so are doctors | 21:12 |
| t12 | expressing a wetbench expirement to a robot | 21:12 |
| Lemminkainen | it's far easier for them to call up Hamilton and deal with them | 21:12 |
| t12 | is suprisingly difficult | 21:12 |
| t12 | it shouldnt be but it is | 21:13 |
| t12 | i guess primarily a ux issue | 21:13 |
| fenn | Lemminkainen: exactly, that's why you guys think it's better to blow $100k on a robot than to bother with awful wires and metal and stuff | 21:13 |
| fenn | where "you guys" is t12 | 21:14 |
| t12 | i've both blown the 100k on the robot | 21:14 |
| t12 | and done the awful wires and stuff | 21:14 |
| t12 | they each have their place | 21:14 |
| t12 | the awful wires and stuff robot cost more in materials | 21:14 |
| fenn | not true | 21:14 |
| t12 | i guess its bigger in the end | 21:14 |
| Lemminkainen | fenn from where I am it depends on the source of the cash: investment, debt, or revenue; rolling and dogfooding my own equipment beyond the absolute necessities only makes sense from debt or revenue capital, otherwise it never multiplies for you | 21:15 |
| fenn | i recognize the words in those sentences but it didn't make sense | 21:16 |
| t12 | lol | 21:16 |
| fenn | what does source of money have to do with return on investment? | 21:16 |
| fenn | it's money, it's fungible | 21:16 |
| Lemminkainen | not all money is worth the same | 21:16 |
| fenn | a dollar is a dollar | 21:16 |
| t12 | someone elses dollar | 21:16 |
| fenn | you guys are nuts | 21:16 |
| t12 | is definately considered differently | 21:16 |
| Lemminkainen | if I sell 1 share for $1 and then spend it on a cheeseburger, I've effectively turned 1 share into poop | 21:17 |
| Lemminkainen | but if things are going well, the price of that share in the future increases at a rate faster than inflation | 21:17 |
| Lemminkainen | so in a year maybe that share is worth $5 and I blew its value on 1 unit of cheeseburger poop instead of putting it towards somethign that makes me more cheeseburgers | 21:17 |
| t12 | anyway | 21:18 |
| t12 | i suppose therenos could be considered a company that inhoused alot | 21:18 |
| t12 | though i dont really know their internal dev history | 21:18 |
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| t12 | their patent list certainly implies they pretty much build their own stuff | 21:18 |
| fenn | thewhat? | 21:18 |
| t12 | however out the door they're targeting samples on the scale of people on earth | 21:19 |
| t12 | https://www.theranos.com/ sorry spelling | 21:19 |
| t12 | check out their shady board of directors | 21:19 |
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| kanzure | fenn: regarding "a dollar is a dollar", different dollars are actually valued differently :\ | 21:24 |
| fenn | whatever | 21:25 |
| kanzure | $5k/year maintenance just indicates shitty engineering | 21:26 |
| Lemminkainen | it's a buffer I build into any capex | 21:26 |
| t12 | you can spend 2x the design cost | 21:26 |
| kanzure | yes, but that's only because you don't know any better | 21:26 |
| t12 | and lower that maint | 21:26 |
| kanzure | yes, if you are not an engineer everything gets super expensive | 21:26 |
| Lemminkainen | time isn't fungible | 21:27 |
| Lemminkainen | and employees are more expensive than service contracts | 21:27 |
| kanzure | that sounds unrelated :) | 21:27 |
| t12 | compare cost of service contract | 21:27 |
| kanzure | when you don't know how to do things yes you often have to compromise | 21:27 |
| t12 | vs cost of outage | 21:27 |
| t12 | and the service contract costs make sense | 21:27 |
| kanzure | one solution to this conundrum is to not be full of shit | 21:28 |
| kanzure | but this is hard and money doesn't really help solve that | 21:28 |
| t12 | unless youre doing commodity junk | 21:28 |
| fenn | "Our proprietary infrastructure allows us to perform our test analyses with unprecedented speed. So we can have results to you and your doctor in a matter of hours, not days." that's certainly one compelling argument for vertical integration | 21:28 |
| fenn | shipping to china and back takes a while | 21:29 |
| Lemminkainen | "not be full of shit" right, let me just build everything from scratch myself and still manage to hit readiness to file an IND within 2 years | 21:29 |
| Lemminkainen | keep searching for your one true Scotsman | 21:29 |
| Lemminkainen | I'm sure he exists somewhere | 21:29 |
| kanzure | it's fenn | 21:29 |
| kanzure | i found him | 21:29 |
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| t12 | lollin @ one true scotsman | 21:29 |
| Lemminkainen | hi fenn | 21:29 |
| kanzure | your inability to execute doesn't really invalidate my point | 21:30 |
| fenn | scotch tape will win the holy war | 21:30 |
| Lemminkainen | mhm, and your criticism of a system you have absolutely no understanding of is very insightful | 21:30 |
| kanzure | yes surely i have zero understanding of this | 21:30 |
| kanzure | are you trying to claim that engineering knowledge can't reduce maintenance costs? | 21:31 |
| t12 | are you claiming that because thats true its always worth it? | 21:31 |
| kanzure | that wasn't the conversation | 21:31 |
| Lemminkainen | not saying that, I'm saying that a bloody-minded emphasis on DIY purity is somewhat incompatible with building an organization and product bigger than your garage | 21:31 |
| fenn | .g "shift labs" | 21:31 |
| yoleaux | http://www.shiftlabs.com/ | 21:31 |
| fenn | OMG someone is building something | 21:32 |
| fenn | quick call the industry police | 21:32 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: if you have a high growth rate then you can tolerate shitty engineering because you have enough money to cover shoddy shoddyness | 21:32 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: i don't think that important problems should only be solved when there's a high growth rate | 21:32 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: and i also disagree that organizations are more capable than just people doing shit | 21:33 |
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| kanzure | my money is just as good as an organization's. just because it's in my name does not make my money worth less than an organization's. | 21:33 |
| kanzure | you people are disgusting | 21:33 |
| Lemminkainen | aight, we disagree | 21:34 |
| kanzure | can you be more specific | 21:34 |
| t12 | at doing all things? | 21:34 |
| Lemminkainen | don't know about you, but I can disagree with you without thinking you're disgusting | 21:34 |
| t12 | depends on what the thing is | 21:34 |
| t12 | a bunch of randoms arent going to build the space shuttle | 21:34 |
| Lemminkainen | we have different goals, and those goals have informed different values in actually accomplishing them | 21:34 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: i generally hate anyone that thinks poorly. i think you should do the same, because otherwise you're liable to get infected by bad ideas. | 21:34 |
| fenn | hah "DripAssist | 21:34 |
| fenn | Not currently available for sale in the USA. Cannot be shipped to addresses in the USA" | 21:34 |
| t12 | should we be less wrong | 21:34 |
| kanzure | t12: "a bunch of randoms" is not specific enough. if you believe that only those blessed by academia can do things, then we'll talk. | 21:35 |
| Lemminkainen | kanzure we're drawing from vastly different requirements here, which is going to lead to thinking about these processes differently | 21:35 |
| t12 | bunch of randoms means | 21:35 |
| t12 | 'not an organization' | 21:36 |
| Lemminkainen | I have 18 months to prove in vivo efficacy beyond a doubt or this idea dies, that's the constraint I'm dealing with | 21:36 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: i already gave you "if you have a high growth rate and other funds to source from, you can tolerate bad engineering because you can just buy replacement parts/servicing" what more do you want | 21:36 |
| fenn | so make an organization, how hard is that | 21:36 |
| t12 | Lemminkainen: clearly the next step is designing your own SBS plate alternative | 21:36 |
| kanzure | t12: nobody is claiming that, go fuck yourself | 21:36 |
| fenn | why is everyone in such a crazy rush all the time | 21:38 |
| t12 | Lemm: drug dev? | 21:38 |
| Lemminkainen | ish | 21:38 |
| fenn | wouldn't it be better to build a good solid foundation to work on? | 21:38 |
| fenn | instead of throwing piles of cash on top of piles of shit until you have a tower of shit and cash all globbed together and running to the top as fast as you can before it falls over | 21:38 |
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| fenn | i think maybe it's a societal effect of too much coffee | 21:40 |
| kanzure | depends on what your goals are | 21:40 |
| fenn | let's spike the water supply with beta blockers and see what happens | 21:40 |
| nmz787_i | y'all think too big, your robots are too big | 21:41 |
| kanzure | bigger robots make maintenance easier | 21:41 |
| kanzure | i don't have 100 micron hands | 21:41 |
| fenn | .wik plenty of room at the bottom | 21:42 |
| yoleaux | ""There's Plenty of Room at the Bottom" was a lecture given by physicist Richard Feynman at an American Physical Society meeting at Caltech on December 29, 1959." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenty_of_Room_at_the_Bottom | 21:42 |
| fenn | nobody listens | 21:42 |
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| Lemminkainen | fenn closest you'll get to the freedom to make solid foundations is generally through only doing SBIRs or self-funding, which can be a slog with the potential to get out-competed before you've even hit the market a hundred times over, but does allow for real depth of planning and execution | 21:42 |
| t12 | war has done a pretty historacally good job | 21:43 |
| kanzure | self-funding does not exactly expose you to the threat of competition | 21:43 |
| t12 | at tech foundations dev | 21:43 |
| fenn | "...developing a set of one-quarter-scale manipulator hands slaved to the operator's hands to build one-quarter scale machine tools analogous to those found in any machine shop. This set of small tools would then be used by the small hands to build and operate ten sets of one-sixteenth-scale hands and tools, and so forth, culminating in perhaps a billion tiny factories to achieve massively | 21:44 |
| fenn | parallel operations." | 21:44 |
| kanzure | hands are quite complicated | 21:44 |
| fenn | and versatile | 21:44 |
| kanzure | let's just use lasers | 21:45 |
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| kanzure | "did neurons evolve from invasive space alien microbes? click here to find out" clickbait has gtten weird | 22:01 |
| kanzure | *gotten | 22:01 |
| fenn | heh check out theranos's shady board member: "Samuel Nunn served as a United States Senator from Georgia for twenty-four years and as Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee and the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. He is currently the co-chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI), a charitable organization working to reduce the global threats from | 22:02 |
| fenn | nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. " | 22:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: also, i would like to file a complaint regarding longevity advocates. none of them seem particularly interested in my might-take-longer-than-your-lifetime-but-will-work methods. | 22:02 |
| fenn | i wonder why there are so many military people at theranos | 22:02 |
| fenn | kanzure: well duh, nobody wants to die | 22:03 |
| t12 | living forever is useless to the dead | 22:03 |
| fenn | erm, i mean, no longevity advocates want to die | 22:03 |
| kanzure | longevity is not just about you not dying, it's about others not dying as well | 22:03 |
| fenn | yeah but i'm more important | 22:03 |
| kanzure | yes but that doesn't help you solve the damn problem | 22:03 |
| t12 | yeah their board is strange | 22:03 |
| t12 | my conspiracy is that they want to be the biometric-of-everyone database | 22:04 |
| fenn | Henry Kissinger | 22:05 |
| kanzure | is there a good reason to *not* participate in a multi-generation slution to aging/longevity/life extension? | 22:05 |
| kanzure | *solution | 22:05 |
| t12 | but i guess that is countered by: why wouldnt quest diag be that already? | 22:05 |
| fenn | s/slution to/attempt at/ | 22:06 |
| kanzure | .to delinquentme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjRUee5S44w | 22:06 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: I'll pass your message to delinquentme. | 22:06 |
| fenn | .title | 22:06 |
| yoleaux | Amon Amarth - Twilight of Thunder God | Full Album 1080p HD - YouTube | 22:06 |
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| fenn | holy crap they list prices https://theranos.com/test-menu?ref=footer | 22:10 |
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| kanzure | there's some stuff in the logs from way back about theranos | 22:11 |
| fenn | i think they just do half the medicare price | 22:20 |
| kanzure | excuse me while i go retreat to my fortress https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ujuOikKgAE | 22:25 |
| fenn | .title | 22:26 |
| yoleaux | brando and the fortress of solitude - YouTube | 22:26 |
| fenn | some military and medical robots http://skul4aface.blogspot.ca/2013/09/elysium-artwork.html | 22:48 |
| fenn | concept art | 22:48 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Mar 26 00:00:33 2015 | ||
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