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| kanzure | that's a terrible graph though | 05:52 |
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| ParahSailin | wait, why do they give newborns hep b vaccine, isnt that an std? | 05:56 |
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| kanzure | probably because it's the only time they suspect they can get it to them | 05:57 |
| kanzure | probably people don't do their 10 year follow-ups or nothing | 05:57 |
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| archels | .tell maaku re experiment specification languages, this might not be exactly what you're looking for but might serve as some inspiration http://co.mbine.org/specifications/sed-ml.level-1.version-2.pdf | 08:07 |
| yoleaux | archels: I'll pass your message to maaku. | 08:07 |
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| kanzure | you guys are so boring | 08:50 |
| * heath cartwheels for kanzure's entertainment | 08:51 | |
| kanzure | https://github.com/google/ios-webkit-debug-proxy | 08:53 |
| kanzure | http://www.libimobiledevice.org/ | 08:54 |
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| kanzure | https://www.academia.edu/12297791/Open_Access_Meets_Discoverability_Citations_to_Articles_Posted_to_Academia.edu | 10:00 |
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| kanzure | hmm | 10:35 |
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| maaku | archels: hey thanks. it's good to compare with to make sure there aren't any gaps in the design | 10:42 |
| yoleaux | 15:09Z <archels> maaku: re experiment specification languages, this might not be exactly what you're looking for but might serve as some inspiration http://co.mbine.org/specifications/sed-ml.level-1.version-2.pdf | 10:42 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, | 10:59 |
| delinquentme | pizza | 10:59 |
| delinquentme | yum | 10:59 |
| eudoxia | wow coincidence i just had pizza | 11:01 |
| delinquentme | OMGGG | 11:02 |
| delinquentme | universe is telling us things!!! | 11:02 |
| maaku | i could use some pizza | 11:02 |
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| kanzure | sent an email to aubrey | 11:19 |
| kanzure | been a while anyway | 11:19 |
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| fenn | ParahSailin: hep b is transmitted mother to child | 11:58 |
| fenn | i guess it's common enough that the false negative outweighs the harm of the vaccine itself | 12:00 |
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| kanzure | long-duration cryonics should require a male and female partner | 12:04 |
| kanzure | as a rule | 12:04 |
| kanzure | also, possibly in duplicate, because having a failure where you end up with only one male or only one female is a good opportunity for the end of the human species | 12:05 |
| kanzure | also you should ship frozen sperm and oocytes and stuff | 12:05 |
| eudoxia | not necessarily | 12:05 |
| eudoxia | you should just cryopreserve some women and shitloads of sperm | 12:05 |
| kanzure | i have decided that most practical cryonics setups are going to require basically the same setup as a cryonics spacecraft | 12:06 |
| kanzure | because if you wake up a million years in the future you might find that the planet's atmosphere is incompatible with human life | 12:06 |
| kanzure | or that nobody is there to greet you | 12:06 |
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| fenn | a stealth spacecraft | 12:08 |
| kanzure | possibly; but i mean, hide a few of them a kilometer under the ocean or something. because radiation and stuff. | 12:08 |
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| eudoxia | related, this is why i can't accept this concept of a 'galactic goldilocks zone' | 12:09 |
| eudoxia | ie: life can't exist near the core because radiation | 12:10 |
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| kanzure | atmosphere helps with radiation | 12:10 |
| eudoxia | a few hundred kilometers of water ice would stop anything except maybe a GRB right next door | 12:10 |
| fenn | don't even need ice | 12:11 |
| fenn | just interesting geology | 12:11 |
| fenn | i think Luna counts as interesting in a cosmic sense | 12:12 |
| fenn | i bet it's rare to have such a large moon | 12:12 |
| eudoxia | that moon can only reliably stop radiation to things living inside of it | 12:13 |
| fenn | but it influences the climate of earth by preventing the poles from drifting constantly | 12:13 |
| kanzure | damn i knew there was a good reason to not blow up the moon | 12:14 |
| eudoxia | yeah but that's not about radiation | 12:14 |
| kanzure | well maybe i can get to blow up one of jupiter's moons | 12:14 |
| eudoxia | i have a friend who had a wacky plan of crashing phobos into mars to trigger it to terraform or something | 12:15 |
| fenn | why do you want to blow up a perfectly good moon | 12:15 |
| kanzure | ego trip | 12:15 |
| eudoxia | fenn: first person to blow up a moon | 12:15 |
| kanzure | ... i have very specific requirements for feeding my ego. | 12:15 |
| fenn | you think too small, human | 12:15 |
| maaku | eudoxia: furthermore, in terms of the fermi paradox, intelligent life is likely to go immediately to where there is matter + energy -- the galactic core | 12:16 |
| kanzure | that's going to get pretty crowded | 12:16 |
| eudoxia | maaku: i hadn't thought of that | 12:16 |
| fenn | the core is a big place | 12:16 |
| fenn | the supermassive black hole would be useful as a gravitational lens for astronomy | 12:18 |
| kanzure | also for computation, according to black hole enthusiasts | 12:18 |
| fenn | i dont see how that would work | 12:18 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/black-holes/Are%20black%20hole%20starships%20possible%3f.pdf | 12:18 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/black-holes/Black%20holes:%20attractors%20for%20intelligence%3f.pdf | 12:18 |
| kanzure | whoops not the first one | 12:18 |
| kanzure | page 6 section 2.5 | 12:19 |
| maaku | kanzure: long duration spaceflight almost never makes sense, except maybe between galaxies | 12:19 |
| maaku | someone else leaving later but moving faster will beat you to the destination | 12:20 |
| kanzure | you have to leave at some point | 12:20 |
| kanzure | even if you send equipment first | 12:21 |
| kanzure | you will still have to be transmitted by light or something eventually | 12:21 |
| maaku | right, but at typical interstellar distances it is pretty pointless to leave until you can get travel times down to say 40 years or so | 12:21 |
| kanzure | actually i think that there's a good chance that you can beat others by picking a destination that they don't know about | 12:21 |
| fenn | robert forward's starwisp looked like a feasible short-term solution to interstellar travel. you couldn't fit anything larger than a thick hair on board, but that's probably enough | 12:22 |
| kanzure | maaku: ah but we were talking about cryonics | 12:22 |
| kanzure | maaku: my idea for low-risk practical cryonics happened while i was ranting to you in here | 12:22 |
| kanzure | a few months ago | 12:22 |
| fenn | breed humans for cryonics survivability? | 12:23 |
| kanzure | i'm still doing the math on how much money i want to pursue that | 12:23 |
| eudoxia | i think project valkyrie is pretty sound, at least in general principles. equations are conspicuously absent and the author's a known liar | 12:23 |
| kanzure | fenn: animals first | 12:23 |
| eudoxia | (for interstellar travel) | 12:23 |
| fenn | kanzure: and my standard rebuttal is ... some animals already survive freezing | 12:24 |
| eudoxia | even more viable of magnetic monopoles exist and have masses that allow us to mass-produce them in circumstellar supercolliders | 12:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: which ones? | 12:24 |
| fenn | some fish or something | 12:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: we have no practical cryonics demonstrations to my knowledge | 12:24 |
| maaku | kanzure: ? | 12:24 |
| kanzure | fish survive a frozen-like state, not cryonic storage | 12:24 |
| kanzure | but yes fish are a good example | 12:24 |
| kanzure | maaku: you said 40 years.. because human lifespan. but i'm saying we should use cryonics. | 12:24 |
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| maaku | i said 40 years because technological & industrial progress timescales. you leave on a 80 year flight path, and the people left behind will spend 20 years making more antimater or whatever and send a crew on a 40 year flight path to get there in 60yr, before you | 12:26 |
| maaku | but i'm curious about your cryonics breakthrough | 12:26 |
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| kanzure | i was literally typing some angry ranty reply to you on irc and it turned out to be a good idea | 12:27 |
| maaku | kanzure: have you seen this? lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/m0n/even_better_cryonics_because_who_needs_nanites/ | 12:27 |
| maaku | (LW, I know...) | 12:27 |
| kanzure | hadn't seen it, his method looks far more complex than mine | 12:28 |
| kanzure | whoops it wasn't you, sorry | 12:29 |
| kanzure | it was gwillen | 12:29 |
| eudoxia | >mummified brain or the one preserved in formalin would be enough evidence to restore its original state | 12:29 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-02-01.log | 12:29 |
| eudoxia | 2090: black and white pictures restored to true color with complete certainty -_- | 12:30 |
| kanzure | 20:38 < kanzure> also it would be helpful if selling human organs was doable | 12:30 |
| kanzure | 20:38 < kanzure> because you could build up a reserve | 12:30 |
| kanzure | 20:38 < gwillen> (sorry, we have "kidneys stored for a year", but those kidneys were not then used in live animals; and we have "kidneys cooled, then used in live animals", but not after long-term storage) | 12:30 |
| kanzure | 20:38 < kanzure> ahead of organ demand | 12:30 |
| kanzure | 20:38 * gwillen nods | 12:30 |
| kanzure | 20:41 < kanzure> i think that even if modern-day cryonics does not work that we should be working on selecting populations of important organisms (humans, pets, whatever) for those members of the population that are capable of freezing, thawing and surviving | 12:30 |
| kanzure | anyway that's where the idea struck me | 12:30 |
| kanzure | i have since put more thought into and have some ideas for a large-scale project to achieve this in 5-20 years | 12:31 |
| maaku | i'm not sure i understand --- breeding cryo-safe humans? | 12:31 |
| kanzure | animals | 12:32 |
| kanzure | humans are the risky part, and requires ivf or other techniques | 12:32 |
| kanzure | using animals is far faster anyway and means we could look at the results sooner | 12:32 |
| fenn | maaku just reading the first comment on that lw post, "As your phase diagram above shows, when the pressure is sufficiently high during cooling the expansiuon of water is prevented, but ice formation is not. What happens is that other allotropes of ice form which do not require expansion....Crystal formation inside cells results in devastating ultrastructural disruption - far worse than would | 12:32 |
| fenn | occur if ice formed outside cells first, grew slowly and dehydrated the cells, and finally resulted in a vitrified cellular interior" | 12:32 |
| maaku | fenn: yeah that's Mike Darwin, president of Alcor | 12:33 |
| kanzure | yes we know who fucking mike darwin is -_____- | 12:33 |
| kanzure | that dog kidneys have survived cryostorage is absolutely amazing for us | 12:33 |
| fenn | i thought the point of changing the pressure was to rapidly shift from one point on the phase diagram to another, which doesn't leave enough time for large crystals to form | 12:34 |
| maaku | fenn: correct | 12:34 |
| fenn | but he's talking about just keeping it under pressure | 12:34 |
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| maaku | i'm not sure if mike either didn't understand that point, or just didn't address it | 12:34 |
| maaku | ultimately I think we need experimental data here | 12:34 |
| kanzure | experimental data would help | 12:35 |
| kanzure | (in general) | 12:35 |
| maaku | kanzure: re: genetic engineering of cryo-safe populations, why bother? isn't cryonics a stop-gap? | 12:35 |
| kanzure | could you elaborate please | 12:36 |
| punsieve | my understanding of current cryonics stuff is that the person will have died and then gets stored to be healed at a later time - your goal is to design humans who while still living can be frozen with a virtual guarantee of surviving the process. | 12:37 |
| fenn | for some value of "design" | 12:38 |
| maaku | i mean, cryonics is a medical intervention of last resort that becomes less necessary as we fix these stupid failing bodies of ours, and the timeline for genetically engineering humans is similar to the timeline of fixing ageing | 12:38 |
| kanzure | yep, starting with small animals though | 12:38 |
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| kanzure | and also, yes about the design word... and also i think technically law requires me to say they are dead... because laws. | 12:38 |
| kanzure | maaku: well with these insights cryonics is far easier and more imminent than fixing aging | 12:38 |
| punsieve | so, then.. in your plans are you going to try repeatedly freezing the subjects that survive the first time? | 12:38 |
| kanzure | and also, who the hell wants to sit around for 500 million years waiting to get to the next galaxy supercluster? | 12:38 |
| fenn | i thought you wanted to be a dyson sphere | 12:39 |
| fenn | our relationship has been a lie! | 12:39 |
| kanzure | punsieve: animals that survive the first time would be given a long and wonderful life. genetically similar counterparts may be tested in repetition, yeah. until one survives multiple journeys. | 12:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: i certainly wouldn't mind a dyson sphere or two | 12:39 |
| fenn | BE a dyson sphere | 12:40 |
| kanzure | well sometimes you have to go where you won't be disturbed for that | 12:40 |
| kanzure | the point is that it gives you options | 12:40 |
| kanzure | maaku: aging may be impractical to fix for hundreds of years | 12:40 |
| kanzure | in fact i would expect brain uploading to work before aging can be fixed, heh | 12:41 |
| fenn | well if the bandwidth of a light beam isn't enough you can shoot pellets of DNA and other memory storage devices at some fraction of light speed much more easily than trying to revive a human | 12:41 |
| kanzure | yep, that's certainly true | 12:41 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: same | 12:42 |
| maaku | kanzure: meh, if you're talking about an intergalactic future then i don't plan on having a biological body | 12:42 |
| kanzure | that's also acceptable | 12:42 |
| maaku | but of course it would be a great benefit to find out how to safely cryopreserve humans | 12:43 |
| kanzure | the hard part is the resuscitation, not the preservation | 12:43 |
| maaku | and who knows, maybe genetic therapy would let you apply it to existing people | 12:43 |
| kanzure | i would estimate that as a low probability, but yeah | 12:43 |
| fenn | once we work the bugs out of gene therapy | 12:44 |
| kanzure | (only low because chaining lots of hard things together means less likely success) | 12:44 |
| punsieve | hmm... | 12:45 |
| kanzure | i think that in the absence of brain uploading and the absence of a fix for aging, the only thing we have left is this cryonics plan | 12:45 |
| kanzure | so i'm a little amused by maaku brushing it off :-) | 12:45 |
| fenn | you could create a master race of frozen undead zombies that takes over the world, and we would have to pray to the lord of light to save us | 12:45 |
| kanzure | i think you mean the space pope | 12:46 |
| fenn | (i'm sure someone got the reference) | 12:46 |
| maaku | kanzure: it's not a fix for you or me, and i don't see it being widely deployed before longevity escape velocity is achieved, by my priors, so "meh" | 12:47 |
| kanzure | had someone been less selfish in the past they would have started this cryonics project immediately | 12:47 |
| kanzure | even in the 70s that would have been a huge head start, because by now we would hvae working cryonics | 12:47 |
| kanzure | none of this is technologically complex- with the exception of the genomics and bioinformatics required, which probably would not have been available until the 80s | 12:47 |
| kanzure | maaku: there is a good chance that *nothing* gets done in our time on this planet. and it's important to do everything possible to prevent that. | 12:48 |
| kanzure | "our time" as in yours and mine | 12:48 |
| kanzure | with this method there is a good chance that in 100 or 200 years there will never be anyone dead ever again | 12:49 |
| kanzure | unless they want to | 12:49 |
| kanzure | or accidents | 12:49 |
| fenn | successful cryonics resuscitation looks potentially more complicated than reversing the aging process in the first place, so i'm betting on fixing aging | 12:49 |
| kanzure | what complications do you foresee? | 12:50 |
| fenn | uh, like, everything | 12:50 |
| kanzure | bodies mostly take care of themselves-- if the organs were able to fix themselves, then why wouldn't the other body parts? | 12:50 |
| maaku | kanzure: don't misunderstand my reaction -- fenn just summarized my opinion. if you can pull it off, AWESOME, but I just value the expected utility of working on it as less than, say, SENS | 12:50 |
| kanzure | i am quite surprised | 12:51 |
| kanzure | yeah let me just dig up a holy grail and then we can all shit in it | 12:51 |
| fenn | it's not a holy grail, it's a stopgap | 12:51 |
| fenn | even if you can freeze and revive people, they'll still die of old age right after that | 12:51 |
| kanzure | time travel! :waves his arms furiously: | 12:51 |
| fenn | being in a coma for 1000 years! :waves tentacles madly: | 12:52 |
| kanzure | yes and? | 12:52 |
| fenn | isn't that basically what you're proposing? | 12:52 |
| kanzure | well a coma is where you.. eh you already know the difference. | 12:52 |
| fenn | not really | 12:52 |
| fenn | what's the difference? | 12:52 |
| kanzure | cryostorage has no body function | 12:53 |
| fenn | who cares? | 12:53 |
| kanzure | you're not aging | 12:53 |
| kanzure | you are aging in a coma | 12:53 |
| kanzure | so you'd care if you want to be in the future | 12:53 |
| fenn | if you have guaranteed failsafe foolproof anti-aging technology you could do it | 12:54 |
| kanzure | coma? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | why would you need to be in a coma though | 12:54 |
| fenn | to skip forward | 12:54 |
| kanzure | oh whatever; sure you could also just upload your brain and pause your software to skip forward. | 12:54 |
| fenn | well i'll just do that then :P | 12:55 |
| kanzure | i'm surprised that you think that's more practical | 12:55 |
| kanzure | it's certainly more desirable sure | 12:55 |
| kanzure | i am trying to make the best out of the technology of this era | 12:56 |
| fenn | so they can preserve kidneys through the freezing and thawing process and stitch them into a body without a kidney; why not the other organs? | 12:57 |
| kanzure | also it's fine to treat this as a worst case backup plan; it's true that it sort of sucks out of all the other options, but it's also the only one that will definitely work if we start it now, and in 100 years that's the last generation that has to die, the rest can just get stored until someone shows up that fixes aging or whatever. | 12:58 |
| kanzure | fenn: i think they didn't try the other organs | 12:58 |
| kanzure | also i think there are some organs that we haven't figured out how to transplant? | 12:58 |
| kanzure | wikipedia says "Some organs, such as the brain, cannot be transplanted." -_- | 13:00 |
| fenn | eh i just think nobody's tried | 13:00 |
| fenn | i definitely read something about a head transplant operation in the late stages of planning | 13:00 |
| kanzure | "Organs that can be transplanted are the heart, kidneys, liver, lungs, pancreas, intestine, and thymus" | 13:00 |
| kanzure | reproductive organs are notably absent | 13:00 |
| kanzure | or the stomach | 13:01 |
| kanzure | (i think we can get along without a stomach?) | 13:01 |
| fenn | maybe nobody needs a stomach transplant | 13:01 |
| kanzure | also no muscles listed | 13:02 |
| kanzure | wait isn't skin an organ. why isn't that listed. | 13:02 |
| fenn | so it's probably not necessary to cryopreserve the entire body if you can do a brain transplant, because you could just clone them, wait 20 years and do a brain transplant from the cryo-preserved brain | 13:02 |
| fenn | organs are squishy floppy things | 13:03 |
| fenn | usually full of tubes and goo | 13:03 |
| kanzure | for whatever reason i thought we had trouble with liver transplants | 13:04 |
| TMA | except that the body is part of the self awareness -- so unless you want to have a persistent out of body sensation | 13:04 |
| fenn | oh pff | 13:04 |
| kanzure | yeah i don't care | 13:04 |
| fenn | it doesnt matter if it's the original body or a clone | 13:04 |
| punsieve | Liver transplants are difficult | 13:05 |
| eudoxia | i remember a video where darwin claimed head-only was safer, since whole body means the liver's attached to the body and emitting autolytic enzymes during preservation | 13:05 |
| kanzure | theoretically small animal work would get you to a liver that does not do that | 13:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: i think that a brain transplant is a more difficult operation than whole body cryoresuscitation | 13:07 |
| kanzure | although most of it is probably fine motor skills which can be performed trivially with robotics | 13:07 |
| kanzure | probably computer vision would be the difficult part there | 13:08 |
| fenn | TMA: when splicing together a severed spinal cord the nerves don't line up, so you will have to learn how to walk again, and sensations will be wrong for a while | 13:08 |
| kanzure | also that might require some research in neuroscience, because i don't think that presently works? | 13:09 |
| fenn | it sort of works now | 13:09 |
| kanzure | i mean the spliced nerve healing thing | 13:09 |
| kanzure | hmm | 13:09 |
| kanzure | then why do we still have paralyzed peeps | 13:09 |
| fenn | polyethylene glycol cell fusion | 13:09 |
| fenn | it's a new thing | 13:09 |
| kanzure | hmph | 13:09 |
| kanzure | linkz plz | 13:09 |
| fenn | .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4322377/ | 13:12 |
| yoleaux | The “Gemini” spinal cord fusion protocol: Reloaded | 13:12 |
| kanzure | there was also that liquid metal paper a while back | 13:12 |
| fenn | canavero is definitely pushing some boundaries | 13:12 |
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| kanzure | for bonus points an interesting project with the selective breeding facility would be the following: | 13:14 |
| kanzure | you could take an animal that is able to survive cryoresuscitation and then pick the ones that heal afterwards more rapidly | 13:15 |
| maaku | kanzure: what pushed me to neuro was how more efficient they can be at cryopreservation of just the brain | 13:15 |
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| kanzure | then you increase the constraints there so that eventually yvou end up with a mouse that is able to thaw directly after being removed from liquid nitrogen | 13:15 |
| maaku | but now i'm paranoid that they'll end up doing a destructive upload instead, so I'm really hoping not to test it | 13:15 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with destructive uploads? if they work | 13:15 |
| kanzure | 3scan.com's whole business plan is destructive uploads :-) | 13:16 |
| maaku | they are incompatible with my view of consciousness (I know, OT for this channel). *I* wouldn't live on | 13:16 |
| kanzure | is that a religious view | 13:17 |
| fenn | uh, can't you specify what sort of procedures you're willing to undergo? | 13:17 |
| maaku | no, it's a common sense view, except aparantly not all that common... | 13:17 |
| maaku | fenn: in theory I suppose. if you trust them to observe it | 13:17 |
| -!- Madplatypus is now known as Metaplatypus | 13:17 | |
| fenn | well you have to trust them anyway; someone could just throw your head in the trash otherwise | 13:18 |
| kanzure | do you believe you're the same "consciousness" after anesthesia, after sleep, and after a coma? | 13:18 |
| fenn | you could tattoo "NO DESTRUCTIVE UPLOAD" on your forehead :P | 13:18 |
| -!- Metaplatypus is now known as MetaMonotreme | 13:19 | |
| maaku | kanzure: maybe, yes, maybe | 13:19 |
| -!- MetaMonotreme is now known as MetaMammallianMo | 13:19 | |
| kanzure | is it possible for you to be wrong about the middle one? | 13:19 |
| -!- MetaMammallianMo is now known as PoliticsPlatypus | 13:19 | |
| kanzure | or is this one of those no-evidence things | 13:19 |
| maaku | kanzure: when you sleep your brain doesn't shut off. you just don't form memories | 13:20 |
| maaku | so that one I'm sure about | 13:20 |
| kanzure | http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1 | 13:21 |
| punsieve | but we sometimes remember our dreams as though they actually happened... Is that not forming new memories? | 13:22 |
| kanzure | yes he's wrong about the memory thing | 13:22 |
| -!- PoliticsPlatypus is now known as Madplatypus | 13:23 | |
| fenn | i often forget things that happened a few minutes after waking up, was i conscious? | 13:23 |
| TMA | maaku: although I have the same self preservation viewpoint (with the exception of 'yes' after anesthesia without brain damage) I have some doubts that in a strict sense my conscousness is the same as the one a minute ago | 13:23 |
| kanzure | there is zero evidence of the existence of consciousness | 13:24 |
| maaku | punsieve kanzure : it was a broad generalization that is obviously not always true | 13:24 |
| maaku | but if kanzure is seriously suggesting that sleep is equiv to being brain dead, i don't know what to say | 13:24 |
| kanzure | uh dude you said fucking consciousness | 13:24 |
| kanzure | not brain death | 13:24 |
| kanzure | who cares if a neuron dies in your brain if you can replace it? | 13:25 |
| maaku | kanzure: i'm talking about personal identity, the cogito | 13:25 |
| kanzure | oh, yeah i don't believe in that either | 13:25 |
| kanzure | i think all current evidence suggests that the brain is able to think about that idea, though | 13:25 |
| maaku | kanzure: so i'll just create an exact replica of you in my lab. do you expect to experience what it experiences? | 13:25 |
| kanzure | yes, i expect that replica to function | 13:25 |
| maaku | that wasn't the question i asked and you know it | 13:26 |
| kanzure | i expect that from the time that you make the perfect replica, i will be experiencing that replica's sensory input, i also expect another me running around | 13:26 |
| kanzure | the fork doesn't matter to me at all | 13:26 |
| maaku | the one running around will have no clue that the other one in my lab existed at all, right? | 13:27 |
| kanzure | go on? | 13:27 |
| maaku | likewise, that's how i'd feel about my destructive upload | 13:27 |
| kanzure | are you sure? it seems we feel veyr different about it :-) | 13:27 |
| TMA | kanzure: which "I" was the one you were speaking of? kanzure-0 [the model] or kanzure-1 [the replica]? | 13:28 |
| kanzure | well, i was talking as the replica for a moment, because it was a replica of me from the prior moment | 13:28 |
| kanzure | i figured i would just pick one | 13:28 |
| kanzure | i fully expect a biological kanzure to still exist though- he promised it was non-destructive | 13:29 |
| kanzure | whoops i mean a non-replica | 13:29 |
| abetusk | http://www.oshwa.org/2015/06/02/your-input-needed-for-open-source-hardware-certification/ | 13:30 |
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| kanzure | i might have some concerns about the finances of the replica or how it is going to live its life- it seems like it might have difficulty, since i wouldn't share my money with it | 13:30 |
| kanzure | (although i might share money. maybe.) | 13:30 |
| kanzure | i have lived with the idea of copies of copies for at least a decade now, i am quite at peace with this concept | 13:31 |
| fenn | doesn't the copy have an equal claim on "your" money? | 13:32 |
| kanzure | that's a law question | 13:32 |
| kanzure | realistically i think teaming up with him would be useful, so we could probably work out an agreement | 13:32 |
| fenn | cut to 50 years in the future, a world devastated by war between kanzure's clones | 13:33 |
| kanzure | wait til you see what just two of me can do | 13:33 |
| fenn | 1.5 times as much! | 13:33 |
| kanzure | yea something about the square of the number of communication channels... throw in metcalfe's law or something and you'll have a fiesta. | 13:34 |
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| kanzure | alright i'm gonna bite the bullet and try the genetic opera, wish me luck | 13:37 |
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| punsieve | ... Repo? | 13:43 |
| kanzure | changed my mind already, i think lunch is a better idea | 13:44 |
| punsieve | At best it is linner | 13:48 |
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| fenn | watch the original aeon flux animated shorts instead | 13:52 |
| heath | http://www.cybercoders.com/insights/magazine/salaryguide/ | 13:53 |
| fenn | ugh cybercoders, what a bunch of spammers | 13:54 |
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| maaku | kanzure: I'm quite ok with the concept of copies. i'm just a sefish bastard that prefers *this* copy over the others | 14:08 |
| maaku | (and fully expect my clone to say the same thing about himself) | 14:08 |
| kanzure | go on? i don't understand how that influences your previous statements. | 14:09 |
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| pasky | i would love to have my copies, i would expect them to likely reach the same conclusion about what stuff is worth working on and it sure could use more people working on it ;) | 14:23 |
| kanzure | your copies might hate you too, which you need to be okay with | 14:25 |
| streety | just how similar are we considering these copies to be? | 14:26 |
| kanzure | somewhere between exact replicas and children that sort of look like you | 14:27 |
| streety | that's quite a wide range | 14:27 |
| kanzure | haha | 14:27 |
| kanzure | yes that's true | 14:27 |
| kanzure | i mean nobody minds a few misplaced neurons | 14:27 |
| streety | I think it would depend on which neurons and what they decided to do wherever they found themselves | 14:29 |
| kanzure | "if your child turned into a walking incarnation of godwin's law, would you still .." | 14:30 |
| kanzure | godwin's strawman | 14:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: a dyson sphere does not seem like an optimal computing superstructure | 14:35 |
| kanzure | oh well i suppose it depends on how far out you're building it | 14:41 |
| streety | worried about radiation? | 14:50 |
| kanzure | no i mean compared to alternatives; a dyson sphere the size of a solar system takes a long time, and there are other ways to get lots of energy in the mean time | 14:51 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0TaYhjpOfo | 14:55 |
| yoleaux | A Compilation of Robots Falling Down at the DARPA Robotics Challenge - YouTube | 14:55 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: ^ | 14:55 |
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| fenn | well stars are probably not the most efficient fusion reactors, so if you have to physically surround the fusion reaction in order to extract energy from it, probably you want to build some other structure and suck hydrogen out of the star for processing | 15:03 |
| fenn | but when people talk about dyson spheres they're mostly talking about the order of magnitude of matter and energy involved | 15:04 |
| abetusk | http://www.oshwa.org/forums/forum/discussion-of-open-source-hardware-certification-proposal/ | 15:05 |
| genehacker | they can easily burn hydrogen though | 15:05 |
| abetusk | something maybe some people here have opinions on | 15:05 |
| fenn | if efficiency is defined as energy produced per (time*volume) | 15:06 |
| fenn | i guess that's power, not efficiency | 15:06 |
| fenn | specific power | 15:07 |
| kanzure | i'm still concerned about the lack of privacy of the first uploads or emulations | 15:29 |
| kanzure | memorizing private keys wont really work | 15:29 |
| kanzure | er, which i was thinking of for some reason because i was wondering what software to run with all that dyson sphere energy | 15:30 |
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| kanzure | fenn: also it's hard to clone humans at the moment with current technology; it's easier if you have a womb available, but those require bodies too. so the head transplant or brain transplant plan doesn't quite work for long-term or long-distance cryonics. | 15:36 |
| kanzure | well i mean it doesn't work yet | 15:38 |
| kanzure | or is less likely to work because that step is presently missing | 15:38 |
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| kanzure | and also if you are able to ship a working person with a working womb that far, then why would you bother with the head transplant part | 15:44 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utK-ek2USZw | 15:51 |
| yoleaux | 3Scan: Slicing brains with Meteor -- February Devshop SF - YouTube | 15:51 |
| kanzure | are they really using meteor >:( | 15:52 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5EmFKF8rkU | 15:53 |
| yoleaux | Todd Huffman: The Razor's Edge - YouTube | 15:53 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzTg7hHyVRU | 15:53 |
| yoleaux | Ignite Phoenix #3 - Slicing Brains Very Quickly - YouTube | 15:53 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9zvcKP2noU | 15:53 |
| yoleaux | Todd Huffman - Wide and Deep - YouTube | 15:53 |
| kanzure | gah his fly-through video isn't on youtube | 15:53 |
| kanzure | http://eyewire.org/ | 15:59 |
| kanzure | apparently that game is something sebastian seung has made | 16:02 |
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| kanzure | hmm maybe i should send some email to darpa http://100yss.org/ | 16:38 |
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| jrayhawk | i like how comically huge those people think north america is | 16:46 |
| jrayhawk | oh i see, they took a google earth screenshot from too low an altitude and then copy-pasted that in their moon picture | 16:48 |
| jrayhawk | 5000 miles is a perfectly good distance for the moon | 16:52 |
| jrayhawk | mile high tides will make for some good surfing | 16:53 |
| kanzure | i am reminded of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpatdRd2LGk | 16:53 |
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| fenn | .title | 17:08 |
| yoleaux | Airplane Sounds ~ Pull Up (Boeing 747-249F) - YouTube | 17:08 |
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| fenn | delinquentme you like this kinda stuff www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjNssEVlB6M&t=1m | 17:28 |
| delinquentme | fenn, i didnt know i did until just now | 17:29 |
| delinquentme | awesome. | 17:29 |
| delinquentme | mucho gusto | 17:29 |
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| fenn | this music video brough to you by kim stanley robinson | 17:30 |
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| fenn | "despite the stunning degree of radiprotection inhaled hydxrogen gas proivides, as well as evidnce that it is pluripotent protect against ischemia-reperfusion injury, cancer and a variety of other free radical mediated pathologies (http://www.molecularhydrogeninstitute.com/studies/), no one I know has shown the slighest interest in it." | 17:47 |
| kanzure | hahahaha holy shit i love my friends | 17:52 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, ? | 18:08 |
| delinquentme | fenn thats a rather complex statement | 18:08 |
| delinquentme | and the usage of pluripotent is a bit distracting to me .. .but should it be? | 18:09 |
| jrayhawk | this is an interesting site | 18:10 |
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| fenn | yes the wording is odd but the point is that molecular hydrogen confers huge amounts of antioxidant activity and radiation protection | 18:10 |
| fenn | this is also highly relevant to cryonics resuscitation | 18:11 |
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| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yakushima/AerovatorMT The Aerovator is a transorbital megastructure for launching payloads into Earth orbit and beyond.[1] It consists of a long ribbon rotating around a central hub on the Earth's surface. Aerodynamic lift elevates the ribbon above the atmosphere, allowing the outer parts to attain orbital velocity in near vacuum. | 18:34 |
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| fenn | "As opposed to other space transportation infrastructure projects, the Aerovator can be deployed entirely from the Earth's surface. The ribbon is played out from the rotating hub and lifts itself up aerodynamically as it is extended. The hub will need to rotate much faster initially than in the fully extended state, and the propulsion point will move outwards during extension." | 18:41 |
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| fenn | well this is kinda vague http://autodeskresearch.com/projects/cyborg | 19:25 |
| fenn | .title http://www.vimeo.com/45504767 | 19:31 |
| yoleaux | Bio-Computation on Vimeo | 19:31 |
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| fenn | so the general idea is to do simulation at nano-scale with synthetic biology and bacterial materials and couple that to macro-scale simulation of the material in a traditional cad system, then go back and fiddle synbio parameters automatically in order to optimize macro scale performance | 19:43 |
| fenn | this is what audodesk "project cyborg" is about, i guess | 19:43 |
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| streety | is anyone aware of any technologies showing promise of advancing protein research to the extent we've seen with nucleic acids in recent years? Our reliance on antibodies seems like a major impediment | 20:38 |
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| kanzure | depends on what you mean by "protein research" | 21:23 |
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| kanzure | here is some elon musk propaganda http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2012-09-13/features_elonmusk38__01__405inline.jpg | 21:51 |
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| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9672171 | 22:03 |
| yoleaux | Show HN: Fleetzen – “Uber for moving large items” | Hacker News | 22:03 |
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| kanzure | "So I work for a startup in Hong Kong doing something like this. We're called GoGoVan, and doing really well in the region http://gogovan.com.hk/en What's perhaps different is that with GoGoVan you can ride with your stuff." | 22:04 |
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| kanzure | fenn: you should go to the "SF bitcoin devs" event tomorrow | 22:40 |
| kanzure | er, "san francisco bitcoin devs seminar" event | 22:41 |
| fenn | i hate bitcoin | 22:47 |
| fenn | does uber do trucks/cargo vans? | 22:49 |
| kanzure | the reason you should go is not because of bitcoin | 22:49 |
| kanzure | it's because gmaxwell and maaku | 22:49 |
| fenn | oh | 22:49 |
| kanzure | the telepath and commander spontaneous solution | 22:50 |
| fenn | i imagine literally everyone else there will be trying to talk to gmaxwell | 22:51 |
| kanzure | then pick on maaku | 22:51 |
| maaku | yeah i'll be there for once | 23:04 |
| maaku | i usually don't get up to the city for these things | 23:04 |
| maaku | but i make an exception this time ;) | 23:04 |
| maaku | fenn: http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bitcoin-Devs/events/222975224/ | 23:06 |
| kanzure | i told him to read http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-bitcoin-selection-cryptography/ | 23:07 |
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| nell | hi | 23:50 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Jun 07 00:00:34 2015 | ||
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