| --- Log opened Thu Jun 18 00:00:45 2015 | ||
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| archels | so now all libgen mirrors are down | 03:28 |
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| flamoot | hi | 03:40 |
| flamoot | 2035 to | 03:40 |
| flamoot | today | 03:40 |
| flamoot | is it 2035 yet? | 03:40 |
| flamoot | ,cool | 03:40 |
| flamoot | ,:3 | 03:40 |
| flamoot | I figured in the 20 teens we'd get biotechs that was like magic | 03:41 |
| flamoot | nanotech in the 2020's and then space in 2013 | 03:42 |
| flamoot | but scientology is RUSHIN | 03:42 |
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| flamoot | and then we're off to Target Two | 03:43 |
| flamoot | google: bioapi takeover | 03:43 |
| flamoot | brb ;3 | 03:43 |
| flamoot | they have no real AI you know where they would be rich and famous already | 03:44 |
| flamoot | and human no implants technology is not disruptive its not singularity level | 03:44 |
| flamoot | s/no/neural/ | 03:44 |
| flamoot | so ok brb | 03:44 |
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| kanzure | welp that only lasted a few days i guess | 08:13 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i need a more powerful mkultra i think | 08:13 |
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| kanzure | .title http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7556_supp/full/522S18a.html | 08:33 |
| yoleaux | Central & East Europe : Nature : Nature Publishing Group | 08:33 |
| JayDugger1 | Try OUTLOOK. | 08:34 |
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| kanzure | eleitl: welcome back | 08:51 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ | 08:51 | |
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| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure | 08:51 | |
| eleitl | howdy, kanzure. | 08:52 |
| eleitl | #collapse has been not very active lately | 08:52 |
| kanzure | sorry to hear that | 08:53 |
| eleitl | The quality is also getting lower. Perhaps all that what needed to be said has been said. | 08:53 |
| kanzure | eleitl: here is what i am up to http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08369.html | 08:53 |
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| eleitl | I'm suscribed to bitcoin-dev, but only read it sporadically | 08:55 |
| eleitl | Actually, just in case to not miss something important, like the threat of a hard fork and developer wars. | 08:55 |
| eleitl | It's good that the general press has yet caught wind of it. | 08:56 |
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| eleitl | Because that would cause real damage to the Bitcoin ecosystem. | 08:56 |
| kanzure | a lot of these issues are surprisingly familiar to my interests | 08:56 |
| kanzure | well not so surprising | 08:56 |
| kanzure | authorityless project development is just the name of the game around these parts | 08:57 |
| eleitl | Bitcoin should be run by a benevolent dictator for life. | 08:58 |
| kanzure | no | 08:58 |
| kanzure | that is trivial to defeat | 08:58 |
| kanzure | just threaten the BDFL | 08:58 |
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| eleitl | Assuming, you know who BDFL is. | 08:58 |
| eleitl | The problems created by adding more people in the control loop scale exponentially. | 08:59 |
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| kanzure | the control loop is the wrong model | 09:00 |
| eleitl | You see this in cryonics, too. | 09:00 |
| eleitl | Decisions by commitees are just bad. | 09:00 |
| kanzure | there is no committee | 09:00 |
| eleitl | The larger the commitee, the worse. | 09:00 |
| kanzure | anyone telling you otherwise is lying to you | 09:00 |
| kanzure | who do you think the committee is right now? | 09:00 |
| kanzure | where is it? | 09:00 |
| kanzure | point me to it | 09:00 |
| eleitl | I don't know how checkin privilege control is implemented. | 09:01 |
| kanzure | why would commit access matter here? | 09:01 |
| eleitl | Who can revoke privileges? | 09:01 |
| kanzure | no, you're talking about a source code repository | 09:01 |
| kanzure | that's a different topic | 09:01 |
| kanzure | (anyone can have their own source code repository; and it can be maintained using whatever social strategy) | 09:02 |
| eleitl | In the end, there's power in who controls the standard depositories, and who can check in code which makes it to the stage where it can be published. | 09:02 |
| kanzure | anyone can publish anything they want | 09:02 |
| eleitl | People run clients, clients come from a location, and there's implicit trust involved. | 09:02 |
| kanzure | well then the whole network is doomed if it's only based on trust | 09:02 |
| kanzure | and my argument is that it's not based on trust | 09:02 |
| kanzure | it's based on deterministic builds and self-validation of the rules | 09:02 |
| kanzure | everyone is personally responsible for deciding whether they think the rules are safe, and they are responsible for communicating flaws that they perceive | 09:03 |
| kanzure | (same goes for improvements) | 09:03 |
| eleitl | Do the current clients run on determinstic builds? | 09:03 |
| kanzure | some of them- like the bitcoin core project, yeah | 09:03 |
| eleitl | So I can build the client from source locally, and it results in the same hash? | 09:04 |
| kanzure | well, you have to do some setup first regarding gitian but yes | 09:04 |
| eleitl | That's good. Who's signing the binaries, and who is publishing these? | 09:04 |
| kanzure | there are many people publishing deterministic builds on their own | 09:04 |
| eleitl | Where do most people download from? | 09:05 |
| kanzure | i think your question should be, "is there anyone who thinks that they are safe running bitcoin software without checking the rules for themselves?" and the answer is sadly yes.... | 09:05 |
| eleitl | I would say 90%+ are getting them from here https://bitcoin.org/en/download | 09:05 |
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| kanzure | quite possibly | 09:06 |
| kanzure | however, that's not necessarily safe | 09:06 |
| eleitl | So whoever has control over that, and if there's no huge public stink poisoning that well over the long has the control on the majority of clients | 09:06 |
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| kanzure | nope | 09:07 |
| kanzure | they can't force installs | 09:08 |
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| kanzure | and users that don't check hashes aren't operating safely anyway | 09:08 |
| kanzure | and users that don't check rules aren't operating safely anyway | 09:08 |
| eleitl | People are installing on their own. | 09:09 |
| eleitl | A year might be not enough, but a couple years control of standard download location defines what the majority of clients run. | 09:09 |
| eleitl | Unless https://bitcoin.org/en/download pulls a sourcefrog. | 09:10 |
| eleitl | Operating safely is irrelevant, because you can't force people to do that. | 09:10 |
| kanzure | so your argument is that security is impossible? | 09:11 |
| eleitl | My argument is that you need to keep this very centralistic. | 09:11 |
| eleitl | If you allow multiple meddling points, the fork is unavoidable. | 09:11 |
| eleitl | This is very similar to trying to make cryonics work. | 09:12 |
| eleitl | Failure is default, unless your inner circle is small and has clue. | 09:12 |
| eleitl | This is going to become very interesting. | 09:13 |
| eleitl | In the centralist approach you would fire the uppity devs. | 09:14 |
| kanzure | the whole network is non-centralistic | 09:14 |
| kanzure | why would you make it centralistic? | 09:14 |
| eleitl | If you can't fire him you've got your answer already. | 09:14 |
| kanzure | a fork is unavoidable if you centralize it because law enforcement will force you to change | 09:14 |
| eleitl | Law enforcement has no control on unknown entities, which are not even operating on the public Internet. | 09:14 |
| kanzure | who is that? | 09:15 |
| eleitl | Satoshi should have pulled a Linus, only remaining in shadows. | 09:15 |
| eleitl | He would bless the patches, or reject them. | 09:15 |
| kanzure | why would that not centralize the network? | 09:16 |
| eleitl | Of course, if TLAs are after you that is hard to remain hidden. | 09:16 |
| eleitl | The network should be distributed. The control of what the clients run, at least the official blessing, should be in very few hands. | 09:16 |
| eleitl | I realize this sounds weird, so I guess we've definitely got problems. | 09:17 |
| kanzure | i don't see any way to preserve mission integrity in that scenario | 09:17 |
| eleitl | The assumption is that the original designer has clue. | 09:17 |
| eleitl | Everybody trusts Linus. | 09:17 |
| eleitl | At this stage, Linus has deputies. | 09:18 |
| kanzure | for example: we already have someone claiming to be the BDFL, and threatening a change that is very obviously going to break the network | 09:19 |
| eleitl | But, Bitcoin is small enough that you could have a single dictator for life. Including a succession sequence, dead man switch, and the like. | 09:19 |
| eleitl | You cannot usurp BDFL. This is something which can be only inherited from the original designer, if you're not the original designer. | 09:20 |
| eleitl | If Satoshi is dead or has lost interest, there's a problem. | 09:20 |
| eleitl | I don't like this situation. | 09:20 |
| eleitl | If Bitcoin breaks other cryptocurrencies will have much more trouble. | 09:21 |
| eleitl | Kanzure, what is your opinion about Ethereum? | 09:21 |
| eleitl | Is this thing on? | 09:29 |
| JayDugger | It's on. Just all on the edge of our seats, awaiting an answer. | 09:31 |
| eleitl | O hai. Long time no see. | 09:31 |
| eleitl | What's up with you? | 09:32 |
| JayDugger | Happily middle-aged and married. | 09:32 |
| eleitl | Sounds just like me. | 09:32 |
| eleitl | Still waiting for the sky to fall, though. | 09:32 |
| eleitl | Luckily, it's taking its sweet time with it. | 09:33 |
| JayDugger | Well said. | 09:33 |
| eleitl | Are you still a card-carrying transhumanist, or is it more of a hobby? | 09:34 |
| JayDugger | Optimism is easy in good days, pessimism easy in hard times. | 09:34 |
| JayDugger | Declined to hobby status, though my wife and I did have the cryonics conversation before we got engaged. | 09:34 |
| JayDugger | Neither of us signed up for it, but she has no objections to it and no "Ick!" response. | 09:35 |
| eleitl | We've had a considerable meltdown with cryonics in Germany. | 09:35 |
| JayDugger | How so? | 09:35 |
| kanzure | card-carrying is not recommended | 09:35 |
| eleitl | Hijacked by Temple of the Vampire, if you can believe that. | 09:35 |
| kanzure | eleitl: ethereum opinion is presently negative | 09:35 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, learning that only cost me one friendship. Then I learned to shut up about it unless asked. | 09:35 |
| JayDugger | .wik Temple of the Vampire | 09:36 |
| yoleaux | "I Love a Mystery was a radio drama series about three friends who ran a detective agency and traveled the world in search of adventure. Distinguished by the high octane scripting of Carlton E. Morse, the program was the polar opposite of Morse's other success, the long-running One Man's Family." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Love_a_Mystery | 09:36 |
| eleitl | kanzure: technical design, or governance, or both? | 09:36 |
| kanzure | all of the above | 09:36 |
| kanzure | and some other concerns | 09:36 |
| eleitl | My uninformed opinion is the same, Kanzure. | 09:36 |
| eleitl | The German org got split by the takeover. | 09:37 |
| kanzure | what resources did the organization have? | 09:37 |
| eleitl | Which is good, a cleaning thunderstorm. We know where we stand with each group. | 09:37 |
| JayDugger | Also well said. | 09:37 |
| eleitl | At the moment of the takeover, equipment, and AFAIK some 12 kEUR in cash. | 09:37 |
| eleitl | Focus is now in the north, Berlin-Dresden axis. | 09:37 |
| eleitl | South is now empty, but there are some noises from Switzerland. | 09:38 |
| eleitl | Switzerland has the potential for legal option for active shutdown. | 09:38 |
| eleitl | Plus, great jurisdiction for hiding and transporting your wealth across time. | 09:39 |
| kanzure | i am so sad to hear when everyone squabbles over 12k cash | 09:39 |
| eleitl | The cash is irrelevant. | 09:39 |
| eleitl | It's good that it blew up, we know who's who now. | 09:39 |
| eleitl | On the negative side, people still don't understand what it takes to create a competent service. | 09:40 |
| eleitl | So we're back to the governance question. | 09:40 |
| eleitl | If too many people are in control, the result is a failure. | 09:40 |
| kanzure | i think it's a little odd that you see this as a people in control thing | 09:41 |
| eleitl | The bootstrap of the 1970s in the US is IMO not repeatable elsewhere, at this day and age. | 09:41 |
| kanzure | what evidence do you have that the network is based on authority? | 09:41 |
| kanzure | your only comment so far has been "well because users are unlikely to check the rules" | 09:41 |
| kanzure | but if users are unlikely to check the rules, then we're even more doomed; no possible system design would fix that | 09:41 |
| eleitl | I don't have evidence, only knowledge how people operate. | 09:41 |
| eleitl | Yes, we might be quite possibly doomed. Too early to tell, though. | 09:42 |
| kanzure | i think that it is likely that there is a solution that nobody has imagined | 09:42 |
| kanzure | one example is that some bitcoin developers were planning to hash the rules, and the hash would be the name of the system | 09:42 |
| kanzure | so if the rules change then the name of the system changes | 09:42 |
| kanzure | so you would only use the rules that tell you the right name | 09:43 |
| eleitl | I don't think Satoshi was thinking about details of the governance | 09:43 |
| kanzure | he probably believed that governance was a central point of failure | 09:43 |
| eleitl | He could have built an autoupdate function, from P2P itself. | 09:43 |
| kanzure | pfft not safely | 09:43 |
| eleitl | It would be a failure, if he was a public figure. He wasn't. | 09:43 |
| eleitl | Not safely, but good enough. | 09:44 |
| eleitl | Each node a full client, each node also a P2P streaming infrastructure, for the blockchain, and for the client. | 09:44 |
| eleitl | I think a lot of the current situation is unplanned. | 09:45 |
| eleitl | There was considerable luck involved. | 09:45 |
| eleitl | If you want to make cryonics work, you need own money, while also having clue. | 09:47 |
| eleitl | Statistically improbable. | 09:47 |
| eleitl | All the people with money had strong notions, and no clue at all. | 09:47 |
| eleitl | These, which I had the pleasure to deal with, which was a small set. But I'm told the bigger set is just the same. | 09:48 |
| eleitl | 1970s US did self-bootstrap. | 09:48 |
| eleitl | It is much harder to self-bootstrap 2015, in part time. The world is just not the same. | 09:48 |
| JayDugger | What differences matter most? | 09:49 |
| JayDugger | The Cold War comes to mind as a difference, but I don't know whether that's what you've in mind. | 09:49 |
| eleitl | It was time of growth, of people believing in progress, of being monomaniac fanatics. | 09:49 |
| fenn | hear hear | 09:50 |
| eleitl | If you ever tried to fund cryonics out of own pocket on normal salary you realize it is very hard now. | 09:50 |
| eleitl | Young people are not interested, at all. | 09:50 |
| JayDugger | Okay, that makes sense. | 09:50 |
| eleitl | Dangerous ideas, no-how. | 09:50 |
| eleitl | They tinker with computers, not animals. | 09:50 |
| eleitl | In fact, tinking with animals or ordering drugs will get you a visit from the police, or worse. | 09:51 |
| eleitl | This is different in Asia, but social structure is very different in Asia. | 09:51 |
| eleitl | You can do whatever you want. But you don't want, for some reasons. | 09:51 |
| eleitl | So, I think today you have to have the miracle of a person with enough money, and also clue. | 09:52 |
| eleitl | Maybe kanzure will make lots of $$$s, and make it his life goal. | 09:52 |
| JayDugger | Kanzure, get hot. | 09:52 |
| eleitl | Or somebody else we don't know about. | 09:52 |
| eleitl | Working with cryptocurrency in finance is pretty hot. | 09:53 |
| eleitl | And I have to leave in 5 min. Less hot. | 09:53 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, I need to go to bed too. Glad to hear from you though. | 09:53 |
| JayDugger | Good night, all. | 09:54 |
| eleitl | Ditto, good night. | 09:54 |
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| eleitl | Byes kanzure. Catch you l8r. | 09:54 |
| kanzure | seeya | 09:56 |
| kanzure | got busy, sorry i couldn't hang out more | 09:56 |
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| kanzure | .title https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2015/06/17/2015-14914/nanotechnology-inspired-grand-challenges-for-the-next-decade | 11:21 |
| yoleaux | Federal Register | Nanotechnology-Inspired Grand Challenges for the Next Decade | 11:21 |
| kanzure | ""The purpose of this Request for Information (RFI) is to seek suggestions for Nanotechnology-Inspired Grand Challenges for the Next Decade: Ambitious but achievable goals that harness nanoscience, nanotechnology, and innovation to solve important national or global problems and have the potential to capture the public's imagination." | 11:21 |
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| kanzure | dna synthesis, genome synthesis, shape-predictable restricted-amino-acid protein synthesis, anything else? | 11:23 |
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| kanzure | "blackmail paradox" http://www.aish.com/jw/me/97755479.html | 11:48 |
| CaptHindsight | kanzure: what companies, labs or groups are actively working on those problems? | 11:49 |
| CaptHindsight | I was talking to the head of additive manufacturing research at a national laboratory yesterday and I was really let down by his lack of understanding of the tech and materials...... | 11:52 |
| CaptHindsight | that got me thinking about how few people are actually working on anything like what you mention above | 11:53 |
| kanzure | i would not expect additive manufacturing people to know about chemical synthesis | 11:57 |
| kanzure | i would estimate that very few people are working on these projects | 11:57 |
| kanzure | usually it's some grad student in some lab that gets around to cobbling together some equipment or something | 11:57 |
| kanzure | which he then proceeds to never document | 11:57 |
| kanzure | http://bioinformatics.org/pogo/ | 11:58 |
| kanzure | even a little bit of engineering goes a long way | 11:58 |
| kanzure | if you write up a short proposal for making dna synthesis equipment, i have cash | 11:58 |
| kanzure | and as long as we can agree about some of the licensing details (open-source) then i think there's a good chance of stuff happening | 11:58 |
| kanzure | (open-source is insufficient for licensing details of course) | 11:59 |
| CaptHindsight | my point was that I don't really know anyone anymore that actually doing research on these problems | 12:02 |
| CaptHindsight | if they have not much is made public | 12:02 |
| CaptHindsight | kanzure: lets chat about the Inkjet Microarrayer | 12:05 |
| CaptHindsight | it looks like it has a primary and a secondary "printhead" | 12:06 |
| CaptHindsight | it also has 7 reagent solenoids | 12:06 |
| CaptHindsight | the Epson printhead has 6 channel, so it can hold 6 different fluids isolated from each other | 12:09 |
| CaptHindsight | it also uses a laser to verify that drops have been ejected | 12:11 |
| CaptHindsight | so this is what I would call a flatbed inkjet printer that is cnc controlled | 12:12 |
| CaptHindsight | it is contained in a sealed nitrogen filled enclosure | 12:13 |
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| kanzure | the enclosure is rather unfortunate in my opinion; i think there should be a way to do it more like https://www.takeitapart.com/guide/94 | 12:13 |
| CaptHindsight | how many do you want and when do you want them? :) | 12:13 |
| kanzure | well, i want just one, but i want it to be repeatably buildable by others | 12:14 |
| CaptHindsight | what else would you change? | 12:14 |
| kanzure | development budget can be larger but the final system cost should be something cheap cheap cheap (e.g. most of these things cost >$20k or >$100k which is bullshit) | 12:14 |
| kanzure | well, it should have easily upgraded firmware, so not really firmware :-) | 12:14 |
| kanzure | it should not be designed by monkeys | 12:14 |
| kanzure | it should not have impossible-to-acquire parts | 12:14 |
| CaptHindsight | it can run Linuxcnc and use a PC for control | 12:15 |
| kanzure | that's fine with me, although linuxcnc might be overkill or unnecessary | 12:15 |
| CaptHindsight | LPT port for stepper drives | 12:15 |
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| kanzure | for something like https://www.takeitapart.com/guide/94 i don't think there's any reason to use linuxcnc, but i think using linux is important here, yes | 12:15 |
| CaptHindsight | well it's free, works and is supported | 12:15 |
| kanzure | linuxcnc does valve control stuff? | 12:15 |
| CaptHindsight | and has room to grow when you want to have 1000 channels | 12:16 |
| kanzure | please continue typing things but my responses are going to be delayed, sorry dude | 12:16 |
| CaptHindsight | yes, you can control just about anything with it | 12:16 |
| CaptHindsight | no problem | 12:16 |
| CaptHindsight | that is how IRC should work :) | 12:16 |
| CaptHindsight | Epson heads come with every Epson printer | 12:18 |
| kanzure | inkjet or not doesn't really matter to me; it seems easier to keep the ABI under argon pressure than a giant enclosure | 12:18 |
| kanzure | also, using beads and lasers would be very convenient, but understandable if that design is presently incomprehensible | 12:18 |
| CaptHindsight | 6 -8 color heads for aqueous fluids are found in printers from ~$100 -$800 | 12:19 |
| CaptHindsight | lasers are no problem | 12:19 |
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| CaptHindsight | the only trick with using Epson heads is making a board that drives them | 12:20 |
| CaptHindsight | people retrofit the Epson printers all the time but they use the included drive boards and work around their issues | 12:20 |
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| CaptHindsight | so an open source printhead driver board is the only board that needs to be designed | 12:21 |
| kanzure | there was a trick regarding the actual inkjet head that they used in that project; e.g. there was only a certain kind that was compatible, and epson no longer manufactures it. check the pdfs and search for the part number. | 12:23 |
| CaptHindsight | I know the Epson heads......... | 12:23 |
| CaptHindsight | what was unique about the fluids? | 12:23 |
| CaptHindsight | are they all aqueous? | 12:24 |
| CaptHindsight | I also work with 100 other printheads, Xaar, Spectra, RPSA, Seiko etc etc | 12:24 |
| CaptHindsight | the The F057020 print head used was available through some 3rd party | 12:26 |
| CaptHindsight | page 6 chapter 1, I think he just wrote it in a odd way that makes it sound like it was a uniquely chosen head | 12:27 |
| CaptHindsight | the Epson heads are gray scale | 12:28 |
| CaptHindsight | depending on model they can start at 2 or 4pl and then fired multiple drops that form into one drop so 4, 8, 12 ,16, 20 and 24pl are all possible with the same head | 12:29 |
| CaptHindsight | Epson heads are the cheapest piezo heads and barely work even as desktop printer heads | 12:30 |
| CaptHindsight | I'm trying to start manufacturing piezo heads in China | 12:31 |
| CaptHindsight | there are no China made heads yet except for thermal inkjet | 12:31 |
| CaptHindsight | they used a National Instruments board for control | 12:33 |
| CaptHindsight | we can use the Mesa FPGA boards | 12:33 |
| CaptHindsight | I don't design machines using threaded rod and hot melt for positioners | 12:35 |
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| kanzure | what's wrong with threaded rods? | 12:38 |
| CaptHindsight | http://imagebin.ca/v/25h1hJ5xxunN a 3 axis stage like this is a few hundred $$ | 12:38 |
| kanzure | i am having trouble evaluating your statement, is that good or bad? | 12:39 |
| CaptHindsight | ballscrews and linear bearings | 12:39 |
| CaptHindsight | is a few hundred $ low cost enough for it to last without needing adjustments for a few years of daily use? | 12:40 |
| kanzure | is that a rhetorical question? i'm sorry, i'm really confused. | 12:40 |
| kanzure | yes, systems should be designed for at least multiple years of nearly-constant use | 12:40 |
| CaptHindsight | I'm looking for your opinion | 12:40 |
| CaptHindsight | on cost and reliability | 12:41 |
| kanzure | reliability is important, cost is sorta important, i mean the cost of development is less important to me, but final cost for others to repeat or build their own is important | 12:41 |
| kanzure | i also appreciate designs that can be easily degraded to lower reliability or something | 12:41 |
| CaptHindsight | some people might want it to be made from balsa wood and have to be aligned daily | 12:41 |
| kanzure | i'm too lazy for that | 12:42 |
| CaptHindsight | ok, that's what I need to know | 12:42 |
| CaptHindsight | the Epson use a stamped sheet metal frame and a drill rod as a linear bearing | 12:43 |
| CaptHindsight | the carriage is belt driven by a stepper | 12:43 |
| CaptHindsight | so it's $200 in parts | 12:44 |
| kanzure | $300 vs $500 is irrelevant to me; i'm more concerned about stuff like $500 vs $50k | 12:44 |
| CaptHindsight | ah ok | 12:44 |
| CaptHindsight | ok we are talking about a $2K printer that someone willing to use wood and found items could make for possibly under $500 | 12:46 |
| kanzure | what was your argument for a gas enclosure? instead of the ABI "columns" approach? | 12:47 |
| CaptHindsight | 8 separate fluids per head is what you can get cheaply | 12:47 |
| CaptHindsight | 2 heads on one printer gets you 16 fluids | 12:47 |
| CaptHindsight | kanzure: what do you like and not like about either enclosure? | 12:48 |
| kanzure | seems like lots of tasks are complicated by the gas enclosure, like retrieving your samples at the end | 12:49 |
| CaptHindsight | isn't the inert gas required for the reagents? | 12:50 |
| kanzure | yes, but keeping a giant cube pumped with argon is more difficult than the ABI system | 12:50 |
| kanzure | sample retrieval.. what do you do, pump the cube down, use some hand-gloves to seal the glass slides(?) and then what.. hm. | 12:51 |
| CaptHindsight | the printheads also need to be in the argon | 12:52 |
| CaptHindsight | since they rely on external and internal pressures to operate | 12:52 |
| CaptHindsight | the differences are in the few inches of water of pressure differential | 12:53 |
| kanzure | i think it's easy to get them inside the argon if you already have the enclosure, of course. the enclosure surrounds that part of the equipment. | 12:53 |
| CaptHindsight | lets see | 12:54 |
| kanzure | although if you have to access it often..... hm. | 12:54 |
| CaptHindsight | what if we keep the slides in their own enclosure | 12:54 |
| kanzure | you should consider the rest of the process, if you know what i mean? like what you do after you use the machine, how do you get the dna into an organism? or how do you get it into a thermocycler? it has to be compatible in a way that does not damage the sample you have constructed. | 12:54 |
| CaptHindsight | yeah what I'm thinking about now | 12:55 |
| kanzure | also, you get bonus points for doing things in extremely large scale (like 1 million sequences in parallel, etc) | 12:55 |
| CaptHindsight | how many different fluids and how many samples at a time | 12:56 |
| CaptHindsight | printheads have fixed numbers of isolated fluid channels and nozzles | 12:57 |
| kanzure | look at the ABI machine, it's much more clear | 12:57 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/abi391/ | 12:57 |
| CaptHindsight | walk me though the steps | 12:59 |
| kanzure | those steps are listed in one of those documents, plus i am doing like 10000 things right now (trying the type-on-two-keyboards-at-once trick; it still feels unnatural) | 13:01 |
| CaptHindsight | no rush | 13:01 |
| kanzure | the steps really are listed though | 13:03 |
| kanzure | and the exact reagents and inputs | 13:03 |
| kanzure | and also the chemical reaction sequence | 13:03 |
| sheena | is anyone here interested/involved in temperature monitor stuff? swallowable or implantable? | 13:04 |
| CaptHindsight | an inkjet dna synthesizer that dispenses 6-24 fluids can be built for a few $k ea using automation parts vs threaded rods and glue guns | 13:04 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, nmz787 fenn did I already ask you guys if you know of anyone around SF who has a high volumne centrifuge? | 13:05 |
| delinquentme | I need to spin down ~1 gal of piggy blood | 13:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: ask juul | 13:06 |
| kanzure | juul: ping | 13:06 |
| kanzure | CaptHindsight: i still don't understand why you put threaded rods in the same category as glue guns :-) | 13:07 |
| kanzure | CaptHindsight: look at the pdfs in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/abi391/ they are enlightening | 13:07 |
| delinquentme | centrifuges could be made way safer if they were auto balancing huh | 13:07 |
| delinquentme | also quite a bit lighter. | 13:07 |
| CaptHindsight | kanzure: because that is how you make hobby toys vs machines for work | 13:09 |
| CaptHindsight | threaded rods are not lead screws | 13:10 |
| CaptHindsight | kanzure: if you want a reprap quality synthesizer then modify one for an inkjet head | 13:12 |
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| CaptHindsight | using an Epson head is already riding the edge of toy vs tool | 13:14 |
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| kanzure | waaait threaded rods are not lead screws... | 13:24 |
| kanzure | hm i seem to be forgetting something | 13:24 |
| kanzure | i'm sure i'm forgetting something | 13:28 |
| kanzure | threaded rods are not helical? | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | acme rods ? | 14:05 |
| delinquentme | acme rods = lead screws ... and also ball screws | 14:06 |
| CaptHindsight | to the laymen | 14:12 |
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| kanzure | i think i prefer lead screws | 14:14 |
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| CaptHindsight | kanzure: I'm happy to make a machine that is $50K-500K because 95% is profit for a few $k | 14:48 |
| kanzure | haha | 14:49 |
| kanzure | what | 14:49 |
| CaptHindsight | what I'm not interested is making a toy synthesizer with parts from ACE hardware and hot melt | 14:50 |
| CaptHindsight | with a wooden enclosure to look hipster | 14:50 |
| CaptHindsight | well maybe as a spoof | 14:50 |
| kanzure | we could do a spoof later | 14:51 |
| kanzure | anyway, yeah i agree | 14:51 |
| kanzure | so are you also against lead screws | 14:51 |
| CaptHindsight | if somebody wants to swap $200 ballscrews for $50 lead screws they can | 14:53 |
| kanzure | heh okay then | 14:53 |
| kanzure | well anyway, this is not a big deal to me | 14:53 |
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| kanzure | .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_Luwak | 15:05 |
| yoleaux | "Kopi luwak (Indonesian pronunciation: [ˈkopi ˈlu.aʔ]), or civet coffee, refers to the seeds of coffee berries once they have been eaten and defecated by the Asian palm civet (Paradoxurus hermaphroditus). The name is also used for marketing brewed coffee made from the beans." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_Luwak | 15:05 |
| Adlai | "A few days later, I upgraded my system to the Clever Coffee Dripper and prepared a cup, steeped precisely four minutes, from the ground civet beans. Same result: a cup of coffee as flavorless as wet cardboard." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_Luwak#cite_note-AutoZK-5-12 | 15:06 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=3e9d51e7 Bryan Bishop: add link to final report >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/andreas-antonopolous-canada-senate-bitcoin/ | 15:54 |
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| kanzure | "Meta-analysis of heritability of human traits based on 50 years of twin studies" http://www.gwern.net/docs/2015-polderman.pdf | 17:32 |
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| kanzure | phillyj: welcome back | 17:34 |
| phillyj | sup, jus logged on tryin to fix my ubuntu problem | 17:35 |
| phillyj | what's new around here? | 17:35 |
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| kanzure | welp | 17:38 |
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| midnightmagic | Why is #hplusroadmap unavailable namespace? | 17:45 |
| kanzure | it used to live in #hplusroadmap and then a sysop moved it | 17:48 |
| kanzure | something about freenode policy | 17:49 |
| midnightmagic | nobody wanted to be project contact for freenode? | 17:49 |
| kanzure | i am the project contact | 17:50 |
| midnightmagic | :-/ what the heck. That doesn't make any sense. | 17:50 |
| kanzure | i think we were concerned about not being able to set /topic in #hplusroadmap | 17:51 |
| midnightmagic | That suggests that there was a +F user who'd set topiclock and didn't want to remove it. That makes more sense. | 17:51 |
| kanzure | Martinp23 did some stuff | 17:52 |
| midnightmagic | well at least your name isn't BTCOxygen. :-) | 17:52 |
| kanzure | 15:44 -Martinp23:#hplusroadmap- Hi everyone! In line with http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#channelnaming , this channel's moving to ##hplusroadmap . Please update your autojoin etc, and move there as soon as possible :) | 17:52 |
| cluckj | weird | 17:55 |
| kanzure | hi cluckj | 17:56 |
| cluckj | hi | 17:57 |
| kanzure | cluckj: here is some stuff | 17:57 |
| kanzure | http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08276.html | 17:57 |
| kanzure | http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08351.html | 17:57 |
| kanzure | http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08369.html | 17:57 |
| cluckj | wat | 17:57 |
| kanzure | you know... stuff. | 17:57 |
| cluckj | k | 17:58 |
| cluckj | reading | 17:58 |
| cluckj | those guys have commitment problems | 18:00 |
| kanzure | elaborate | 18:01 |
| cluckj | it was a joke | 18:04 |
| kanzure | ah i suppose it could work especially if you're talking about cryptographic commitments (which are often published in the blockchain) | 18:04 |
| cluckj | what do you think is interesting about those mails? | 18:08 |
| kanzure | well you used to be interested in open-source software culture things | 18:09 |
| kanzure | that's some hot-off-the-press culture right there | 18:09 |
| kanzure | steaming pile of culture | 18:09 |
| cluckj | hah | 18:11 |
| cluckj | well | 18:12 |
| cluckj | what I've found with "open" communities is that what's most interesting, and what's *really* going on is the stuff that is being hidden/obscured behind or by the openness | 18:13 |
| cluckj | there's obviously some pretty intense off-list stuff going on behind those posts | 18:13 |
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| cluckj | "consensus" keeps popping out to me | 18:24 |
| cluckj | I'm not familiar with how btc works, is consensus a technical term for something that goes on in there? | 18:26 |
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| kanzure | cluckj: yes there is a technical form of consensus achieved by the bitcoin network, see the abstract here https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf | 18:32 |
| kanzure | there is also a social consensus thing that they are talking about too | 18:33 |
| kanzure | all the off-list discussion is on reddit, irc, bitcointalk, etc. | 18:33 |
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| cluckj | sometimes it's hard for me to tell which one they're talking about | 18:35 |
| kanzure | right, so i sort of feel like that's intentional on their part sometimes | 18:38 |
| kanzure | other times i'm sure it's just because of usual ambiguity | 18:38 |
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| cluckj | that's the kind of stuff I look for, where meaning is intentionally or unintentionally obscured | 18:45 |
| cluckj | then figure out the reason(s) behind it | 18:45 |
| cluckj | using "the decider" is deeply hilarious to me | 18:53 |
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| cluckj | http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08390.html | 18:57 |
| kanzure | "the decider"? | 18:57 |
| cluckj | yeah it's from a george w bush Q&A about donald rumsfeld | 18:58 |
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| cluckj | kanzure, what I mean by off-list is stuff that happens where there are no logs | 19:11 |
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| kanzure | there are logs | 19:49 |
| kanzure | "Automatic imitation of physically impossible movements" http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roman_Liepelt/publication/225076574_Automatic_Imitation_of_Physically_Impossible_Movements/links/0fcfd5143297f598de000000.pdf | 20:19 |
| kanzure | ugh researchgate is inserting a first page with links back to their site | 20:19 |
| kanzure | how is that legal | 20:19 |
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| kanzure | hmph | 20:36 |
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| juul | kanzure: probably the uploader states that they give permission in the ToS, and researchgate ignores the fact that the uploader often don't have the authority to grant them that right? | 22:58 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jun 19 00:00:45 2015 | ||
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