2015-08-05.log

--- Log opened Wed Aug 05 00:00:31 2015
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kanzure*grumble grumble* something something truthcoin, something something extropy-chat snailmail prediction market00:03
kanzureand why are my llvm-dev filters suddenly failing00:04
kanzure"Language learning under working memory constraints correlates with microstructural differences in the ventral language pathway" http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.385.9707&rep=rep1&type=pdf00:09
kanzure"Electrical stimulation of Broca's area enhances implicit learning of an artificial grammar" http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:243879/component/escidoc:527008/DeVries_Electrical_Stimulation_JOCN_2010.pdf00:10
kanzurei have always been disappointed that "the language amoeba hypothesis" is not at all what its name says it is >:(00:13
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jrayhawkhttps://thezvi.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/the-thing-and-the-symbolic-representation-of-the-thing/03:19
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xtalmathwhat is an electrograph?03:39
fennhttps://srconstantin.wordpress.com/2015/07/19/we-could-regrow-livers/  regrowing a thymus is especially interesting wrt longevity04:02
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kanzure"In 1979, researchers found that hepatocytes injected into the rat spleen (which is part of the lymphatic system and analogous to a large lymph node) functioned normally and grew to take up 40% of the spleen."05:25
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kanzure"I was developing a DNA nanostructure on cadnano when I realised the utilities in nanoengineer could boost this process. But there seems to be no way to import .json into nanoengineer in a coarse-graining manner. Also the PAM3-PAM5 model seems to differ from the coarse-graining model in oxDNA so that it's impossible to import .pdb from oxDNA, which could result from converting a .json file from cadnano.05:37
kanzureIs there any utilities I can use to interconvert .json in cadnano and .mmp in nanoengineer?"05:37
kanzureeudoxia: thoughts?05:43
eudoxiakanzure: alright, first thing, .mmp is not properly documented: the version in the actual files differs from the html documentation in the repo05:46
eudoxiabut, if cadnano's .json is supported by ObMol, then it might be fairly easy, importing it05:46
kanzurehttps://groups.google.com/d/msg/nanoengineer-dev/9PxfdXn6MRk/iVWnPR03CwAJ05:47
eudoxia"We're working on releasing a new API and plugin engine for cadnano that will allow you to easily manipulate the data model so it won't be necessary to parse the json file directly."05:49
eudoxia>dec 201105:49
kanzuredo we also have to maintain cadnano05:49
eudoxiaaaaaaa05:50
eudoxiawell this is the encoder https://github.com/sdouglas/cadnano2/blob/master/model/io/encoder.py05:50
xtalmathhas anyone ever read this slingatron paper?05:51
xtalmathhttp://www.ramaccelerator.org/home/sites/default/files/sling-0571.pdf05:51
kanzurextalmath: have you seen https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer05:51
kanzureheh "from legacyencoder import legacy_dict_from_doc"05:51
xtalmathyeah, I think I did, but never installed it actually, thanks for reminding me05:52
xtalmathkanzure: I had a hard time falling asleep yesterday, as I thought about the slingatron (which I had read a few years ago). I was thinking how this might be used as a vacuum pump: consider an accelerating and decelerating slingatron connected to each other in a closed loop.05:54
xtalmathsince the ball bearings would pass each point at the same frequency, but at a different speed, the distance between ball bearings would vary, in a way that the same amount of gas is compressed at the slow pipe (from declatron to slingatron), and expanded at the fast pipe (from slingatron to decelatron)05:56
xtalmathI came on this, because one of the major problems with vacuum pumps is how to lubricate the bearings in contact with vacuum. either very $ precise, or $ magnetic bearings. so I thought let the ball bearing be the compressing element.05:58
xtalmathso there is for sections of pipe, in the order the balls move: slingatron, straight section of fast pipe, inverse slingatron, straight section of slow pipe05:59
xtalmathwhat do you think?05:59
xtalmaththe smaller the bearings, the higher the compression ratio (since the bearings can come closer)06:00
xtalmathI need some software to simulate molecular flow, to laminar flow, to stokes flow06:01
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eudoxiaisn't that an unsolved problem06:02
xtalmathI think it is analytically unsolved. but numerically? I'm probably wrong though06:03
xtalmathI am pretty sure this works in stokes/laminar flow (think of the tennis ball "marble run" that was featured on HAD), so perhaps just a molecular flow simulator06:04
xtalmathaha Molflow!06:05
kanzureso the other good reason to make a flat engine is because the people of flatland would be quite grateful06:07
kanzurextalmath: closed loop slingatron might be a scroll compressor06:07
kanzurehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor06:07
kanzurehttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Two_moving_spirals_scroll_pump.gif06:07
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xtalmathwow06:07
xtalmaththat is amazingly similar, but I see friction instead of rolling there...06:08
kanzureyes/no?06:08
xtalmaththanks for mentioning06:08
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kanzurei was actually just thinking of a scroll compressor a few minutes ago for other reasons06:09
kanzurea while back i wanted to make a flat engine that could be manufactured with a single manufacturing process06:09
kanzureand thus why i made the snarky comment about flatland above06:09
xtalmathyeah, I have had more of these accidental seeing things I was thinking about moments/days ago too, more and more recently06:11
xtalmaththought amplification by singularity stimulated thought synchronization06:13
xtalmathI wonder how much heat the rolling bearings would cause. also, manufacturing the bearing groove in the plane is probably hard, unless tubing is used.06:14
kanzurenah just start with straight metal then bend it into a spiral06:15
xtalmathso then I would use cylinders instead of ball bearings?06:15
xtalmathim afraid cylinder will try to run out of plane. while a ball will choose its path on the tube surface06:17
xtalmathalso I think ball bearings are much cheaper, but the manifold for ball bearing is probably more expensive than for the cylinders. hmm. unless I use tubing...06:18
xtalmathalso not sure how to prevent the balls from conglomerating06:18
xtalmathunless instead of slingatron, I use electromagnet coil wound around a section, to directly accelerate a ball, then the motor that translates the whole stage in a "rotating" fashion can be left out.06:21
xtalmaththen the relative times and speeds of the bearings can be measured optically06:22
xtalmathand late balls can get larger pulses, and early balls can get smaller pulses.06:23
xtalmathyeah I should try that06:24
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xtalmathperhaps the cylinder could self repel if the cover walls were conductors...06:28
xtalmathmagnetic cylinders06:28
xtalmathlots of heat loss though06:28
wrldpc1couple friends of mine are AI researchers, mind if I invite them here?06:31
kanzurealright06:31
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wrldpc1.site http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/08/soviet-laser-pistol/07:10
wrldpc1.title http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/10/08/soviet-laser-pistol/07:11
yoleauxThe Soviet Laser Pistol - The Firearm Blog07:11
wrldpc1..07:11
chris_99cool07:15
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xtalmathnonsense08:19
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chris_99why's it nonsense08:24
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kanzuregradstudentbot: done writing your thesis?08:30
gradstudentbotIOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'modules/quotes.txt' (file "/home/bryan/code/gradstudentbot/phenny/modules/quotes.py", line 8, in pick_quote)08:30
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kanzure.... guess not.08:30
chris_99awh poor gradstudent bot08:30
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kanzuregradstudentbot: done writing your thesis?08:33
gradstudentbotYou know, I can just do consulting.08:33
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xtalmathchris_99: satellites have huge relative velocities, if it came close enough it would have passed in a blink. they are hard to see, and would be very small targets. the device has no scope to aim at the satellite lenses. what about cooling?08:55
xtalmathif shot from withing the space vehicle, there will be reflection from the window, temporarily blinding the crew. if shot from outside, the cosmonaut would have to prepare for a space walk and get outside, then aim with poor attitude control08:58
xtalmathif laser weapons were ever brought to space (which sounds probable), it would be attached to the vehicle, so it would be under computer control, and any known target trajectory entered for coarse aiming, then locking with a low power modulated beam09:01
xtalmaththis article is wannabe cosmonaut circle jerk, or astronaut false flag "propaganda"09:02
xtalmathor byzantine mindfuck. perhaps some poor russian machinist concocted it to sell to a collector.09:03
xtalmathalso the length for gain is miserably slow09:04
xtalmathlow09:05
xtalmathshort09:05
xtalmathperhaps it was an gadget of secret agent sold to collectors, as a decoy to find collectors who still have moonrock09:07
xtalmathwhatever09:07
xtalmathwhich was probably gypsum all along09:07
chris_99yeah that's a good point about a scope09:08
xtalmathok apparently the rod is long enough09:11
xtalmathif its a battery it would be a molten salt battery I guess09:13
xtalmathI still think its fake09:13
chris_99yeah i see your argument, it does sound a bit iffy now09:13
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chris_99woudn't a hefty CO2 laser have been more suitable too09:17
xtalmathalso, the person who holds it (the 4 photos in one), seems to be the same person who machined it: in the first photo the cartridge has holes, and you can see a spring behind it. in the lower right of the 4 photos there are no holes yet.09:17
xtalmathone could argue that the 4 photos are archive photo's from soviet era. but then what is the flatscreen doing in the background?09:19
xtalmathso it was machined recently09:19
chris_99aren't they just recent photos?09:19
xtalmathif you had genuine laser gun. would you start machining it?09:19
xtalmaththey must be recent, because of the flat screen. hence the holes in the first picture must have been machined recently09:20
xtalmathsince you don't unmachine holes09:20
chris_99oh you're saying something has changed09:21
chris_99in the gun09:21
xtalmathyes, the cartridge holding the "bullets" had no holes in the pictures with flatscreen in background. in the first picture shown, the cartridge has holes.09:23
xtalmathso it was machined after the existence of flatscreens. so it was probably created recently09:24
xtalmathunless you'd start painting over the lost panel of "the lamb of god" if you had it. most people would sell it instead of machining it.09:25
xtalmathwtf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol09:29
xtalmaththe oldest reference seems to be from 2004, flatscreens were available09:35
xtalmathbut not widespread09:35
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kanzure"If I have seen further, it is by blinding everyone else." - duke-admiral isaac newton10:03
xtalmathlol10:05
gradstudentbotWho used the last of the growth medium?10:08
xtalmathman, molecular flow monte carlo is complicated or simple. surface roughness or simple reflection? gravity or no gravity? thermal gradients or no thermal gradients?10:08
xtalmathok no gravity10:13
xtalmathnow which would have bigger effect, thermal gradients or surface roughness? or just start with a simple calculation first?10:13
xtalmathrotating molecules or not? quantize rotation?10:16
kanzurehave you done laminar flow simulations before?10:17
xtalmathnot on a computer, but I did do exercises during continuum mechanics10:17
xtalmathI think I want to start with the molecular flow pump. since I am convinced I can get pretty low with stages of peristaltic pump10:19
xtalmaththe reason peristaltic pump fails round 30 Torr is probably that atmosphere keeps the tube in flattened state so it refuses to open up10:21
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xtalmathI was considering the ball bearing pump as a replacement for the molecular flow $ pump10:31
xtalmathsince ball bearing mass is proportional to r^3, while cross section area is proportional to r^2, suggesting smaller is better10:33
xtalmathim even considering the 2 micron or so saphire balls (also used in the foldscope)10:34
xtalmathperhaps actuated by piezo...10:35
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xtalmathanother advantage of smaller, is that its cheaper to have many, and then throughput vs pressure curve can be modified by heaving different amount of pumps at each stage10:38
xtalmathnot to mention that the extra volume of the pump itself that also needs to be evacuated (partially) becomes smaller.10:38
xtalmathif saphire, the option to actuate magnetically dissapears though :(10:39
xtalmathhmm, piezo in vacuum is probably a bad idea, if the vacuum chamber emit ions to the pump.10:55
xtalmathback to slingatron10:55
xtalmathhmm, im thinking more like the saphire bearings, steel manifold, and manifold vibrated by the cheap vibration motors from cell phones11:11
xtalmathwhat is that toy called? its a flexible tube and you rotate it like a slingshot and it makes sound?11:17
xtalmathah whirly tube11:18
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xtalmathperhaps a lot of whirly tubes in series :)11:19
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xtalmaththats a lot of waste volume though :(11:21
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xtalmathworking with vacuum is much safer than working with high pressure right?12:06
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delinquentmekanzure, why havnt you fixed the block chain to yield spare compute12:31
delinquentmeput blockchain to work on F@H12:31
xtalmathwow, pure genius: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_ring_pump12:39
xtalmaththere is a blockchain for science?12:40
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xtalmathI once had the idea to make a blockchain, that rewards the proving of theorems, and the finding of inconsistencies through MetaMath (proofs would have to be entered formally)12:42
xtalmathpeople could bet on which theorems would or would not be proven within X blocks, so that both correct predictor and the prover earn coin.12:44
xtalmathevery bet would be with respect to a database of axioms12:45
xtalmathas algorithmic complexity and cryptography theorems would soon be entered, it would quickly gain reputation of the most secure blockchain (as it would be practically maintained by mathematicians)12:46
xtalmathinitiating the singularity :)12:46
kanzuredelinquentme: there's a few reasons why a blockchain is not a good "spare compute capacity" system12:48
kanzuredelinquentme: the algorithm for proof-of-work needs to be progress free and not useful in other situations, otherwise you are perverting the incentive-compatibility it provides12:48
xtalmaththe only difference between science and mathematics, are which axioms are accepted (mathematicians being very picky, so as not to introduce inconsistencies, while scientists being more loose and working with analogy). this would quickly result in rephrasing science in a manner that a computer can formally verify12:48
xtalmathkanzure: I assume you are adressing me?12:48
xtalmaththe proof of work could be made progress free in the following manner: 50% of the planned rewards could be assinged towards classical mining, the other 50% could be retroactively divided to whomever found proofs ( of inconsistency, or unproven theorems, or shorter proofs, i.e. relying on less axioms) proportional to how much speculators bet (to approximate "importance")12:52
xtalmathto advocate or propagandize a belief system, it would need its believers to be willing to bet things like "we believe there is no inconsistency in our belief system / school of thought"12:53
xtalmathother bets would also become possible12:54
kanzureno i was addressing delinquentme, he said:12:57
kanzure12:31 < delinquentme> kanzure, why havnt you fixed the block chain to yield spare compute12:57
xtalmathsince it would cause mechanically provable belief systems to be maintained and expanded, education will be automatable12:57
kanzureand then i got distracted by terraform stuff for some reason12:58
kanzurextalmath: the problem with bets is that you would need a way to order the bets, which is exactly what proof-of-work mining is supposed to solve anyway12:59
kanzurei recommend the following:12:59
kanzurehttps://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf12:59
kanzurehttps://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf12:59
kanzurehttps://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf13:00
xtalmathwhat do you mean with ordering bets? the proof-of-work would still be mining, but PoW would not be the only way to get reward13:00
gradstudentbotDon't phage me, bro.13:00
kanzurebecause the other way is broken13:00
xtalmathso the timestamping is by regular PoW13:00
kanzureincluding proof-of-work and something broken still makes for a broken system13:00
chris_99how are you gradstudentbot13:00
gradstudentbotSorry for wasting your time.13:00
chris_99heh13:00
xtalmathalso what do you mean with ordering bets?13:01
kanzurein bitcoinland the purpose of mining is to order the incoming transactions13:01
xtalmathI thought you were referring to the timestamping of blocks13:01
kanzureotherwise you can get double spends and so on13:01
kanzurei'm not sure how familiar you are with bitcoin's architecture13:01
xtalmathrather familiar13:01
xtalmathbut not expert13:01
kanzureso like... you've read the bitcoin source code?13:02
xtalmathparts yes13:02
xtalmathbut not all13:02
xtalmathin what sense does the order of bets matter?13:02
kanzureyou need to have consensus over the order or type of bets, i think13:03
kanzuretheorem proving also does not seem computationally intensive to me13:03
xtalmathnah, anybody can challenge the rest with any kind of bet13:03
gradstudentbotI'm writing that up and it will be submitted soon.13:04
kanzurebut i would rather have you present this argument in #bitcoin-wizards (e.g. how theorem proving would be a practical proof-of-work function)13:04
xtalmathkanzure, again, the miners dont do theorem proving for security, they do it for rewarding.13:04
gradstudentbotHey, I got 100% yield! Oh wait, no.13:04
kanzurelooks like our intern is up to his usual antics13:04
xtalmaththere is little bitcoin related to it. its just bitcoin + printing a little extra coins for valid proofs13:04
xtalmaththe theorem proving would not be a PoW, use the same PoW as bitcoin.13:05
kanzurethen what was the theorem proving for?13:05
kanzureand also, #bitcoin-wizards is definitely the right place :-)13:06
xtalmathif the miner does not create transactions that rewards the mathematicians that submitted good proofs, his block is rejected by the protocol everyone runs13:06
kanzurefor technical/academic analysis of theoretical blockchain magic13:06
kanzurewhereas most of the -wizards do not idle in here and so they would miss anything13:06
kanzurewhy would everyone know to reject the block? they would have to have consensus about the mathematicians' work.13:07
xtalmathif there were no new proofs in the previous block, its identical to bitcoin13:07
xtalmathkanzure, yes, every client contains MetaMath, so they can check proofs automatically13:07
xtalmathif the previous block contained a correct proof, the current miner must mint extra coins for the mathematician, if not the block is rejected.13:08
xtalmaththe miner doesnt lose anything for creating new blocks13:11
xtalmatherr coins for scientific work13:11
xtalmaththe mathematician is not the miner btw13:11
xtalmathblockchain against hypocrisy13:12
xtalmathfor education, science, consistency13:12
gradstudentbotHaha, undergrads.13:13
xtalmathencourages risk, because a minority will like to bet on "within 100 blocks RSA broken", so a majority keeps betting it won't get broken. so this bet has a higher weight on the 50% of fresh coins to be spent on science.13:15
xtalmathwe would become an AI, where it's thoughts are formally checked, yet manually created13:16
xtalmathautomated proof checking would get a boost13:17
xtalmathsorry13:17
xtalmathproof generation13:17
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xtalmaththe most popular belief systems (set of axioms), would have the most bets being placed13:19
xtalmaththe setup is neutral across belief systems in the sense that it is not winner takes all13:19
kanzurewhat is the point of your mining scheme in particular?13:20
xtalmathwith mining, you refer to the extra rewarding of mathematicians with new provable insights? or the PoW for the transaction block miners?13:21
xtalmathit would gain the public's trust, as mathematicians can choose what part of math they study to earn money, instead of having to work for the banks13:22
kanzureoh, so it's not related to mining at all. nevermind.13:23
xtalmatha paranoid cryptographer who wants to cash in on his break of cryptosystem X, can now pseudoanonymously earn coin, instead of having to make a risky sell to ABC orgs13:23
xtalmathand without having to actually steal money from banks13:24
xtalmaththey could start working from home13:24
xtalmathalso, it could make a reputation system for scientists, by contribution, or by correct prediction of bets...13:25
xtalmathno more elbow working13:26
kanzurenot sure how you would avoid transaction stealing in this scenario13:26
xtalmathjust focus on the work13:26
xtalmathkanzure: it would not avoid transaction stealing, it would allow the cryptographer to take a third path which wont piss off people, or get government involved.13:28
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kanzureokay, but others can just steal his transactions and relay them faster13:28
xtalmathwhich transactions are we talking about now?13:28
xtalmathoh you mean in the case the broken crypto was exactly the crypto used to secure the blockchain?13:28
kanzureno, i mean the one that you were submitting to claim your money for your work13:29
kanzurethey can just lift your proof, it's easy13:30
xtalmathit would better use post quantum cryptography. and best use at least 2 different kinds of crypto, so that the cryptographer would have to break 2 systems, decreasing the event frequency from 1/N to 1/N^213:30
xtalmathkanzure: salt your proof and hash it, ask miner to include data as the hash of a claimed proof13:30
kanzureminer can steal it when you broadcast the real version13:31
xtalmathafter the block is verified x times, you submit the proof13:31
kanzureminers can also censor these transactions13:31
xtalmaththe first hash also contains your public key13:31
kanzurewhich is one of the objections to counterparty and mastercoin13:31
xtalmathso he can't run off with your coins13:32
kanzureplus, if a miner broadcasts another salted first-transaction later, and then finally broadcasts your (previously censored) actual proof, and it confirms, there's nothing you can do to get the actual reward later13:32
kanzuresure he can13:32
xtalmathwell, the funds could be frozen for say a month13:32
kanzurethere's no way to detect that there was a previous salted version even deeper back in the blockchain history13:32
xtalmathin which you have the time to prove you submitted first (its decentralized timestamping after all)13:32
kanzurealso this is vulnerable to miner cartels13:33
xtalmathno way to detect it, but there is a way to prove it13:33
xtalmathyes miner cartels13:33
xtalmaththat is true13:33
xtalmathbut hey, then bitcoin is fucked as well no?13:33
kanzureno, proof-of-work (hashcash) generates a proof that someone can't steal13:35
xtalmathto prevent "this really is the hash of a salted proof"-SPAM, a fee could be required. (if the scientist knows roughly what amount he would earn, he would normally be willing to put a little up front)13:36
kanzurethe reason why you can't steal a hashcash proof is because it's a hash over the coinbase transaction as well13:36
xtalmathkanzure: you refer to hashcash itself or bitcoin?13:37
kanzureit's mostly the same13:38
xtalmathyou cant steal a mining block, but mining cartels CAN perform double spend attack13:38
kanzureno they can't... what?13:38
kanzurespent utxos make a block invalid13:38
xtalmaththat is not a double spend13:39
kanzurea double spend is using the same utxos twice, in the same history13:39
kanzureif your history never has the original spend then how would it be a double spend?13:39
xtalmatha mining cartel with higher hashing power than the rest, show one block, containing the tx, then fork from the previous state and catch up13:40
kanzurethat's not double spending imho13:40
kanzurethat's just an average every-day reorg13:40
xtalmaththe cartel can spend the same coins twice, the first one is just ignored by the rest13:41
xtalmathbut the goods are sent. that is the original meaning of double spent when I learnt bitcoin. reorgs were rare and supposed to not happen as it indicates double spends13:42
kanzurethat's like saying i'm double spending when i create 1 million variants of a transaction to spend my utxos13:42
kanzurereorgs happen every day dude13:42
xtalmathnow they do13:42
kanzureno they're supposed to happen often13:42
kanzurethat's how your node gets on the better blockchain13:42
kanzureotherwise you'd be stuck!13:42
kanzurebtw do you have any particular complaints about #bitcoin-wizards or what13:43
xtalmathnot really, I just don't see how it is related to bitcoin. what I propose doesn't contribute to bitcoin, it just inflates (by printing "excess" for scientific work)13:44
gradstudentbotYeah, but that was only a sample size of one.13:45
xtalmathbut it does provide a market place for speculators, one that is based on reason, instead of charts going up, or spectators going down13:45
xtalmathgradstudentbot: a sample size of one? i dont understand13:45
gradstudentbotFuture work will focus on that.13:45
xtalmaththe batch of apples on a boat that is being traded on, is getting rotten, and then unrot if we should believe "economists"13:46
kanzure#bitcoin-wizards is like hplusroadmap but for cryptocurrency research and development13:47
xtalmathI will join, but I won't repeat what I said here. my rant feels over ;-)13:47
kanzurealso happens to be where most of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ comes from13:48
xtalmathkanzure: in the language of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Bitcoin%20over%20Tor%20isn%27t%20a%20good%20idea.pdf for example "double spending" means retroactively forking history, what you call a reorg.13:51
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xtalmathi'm not really following the current state of bitcoin, as of since a couple of years, but I am sure reorg's were considered suspicious (they could occur spontaneously without bad intentions, but a double spend attack would result in a reorg) . so a reorg would be a necessary but not a sufficient indicator of a double spend (the unaffected rest can not discriminate between a reorg and a double spend, even not the seller who loses 13:59
kanzureyou might have been cutoff at the end of your line near "even not the seller who loses"14:00
xtalmathif the buyer is actually a member of the dominant mining cartel, and the cartel rewrote history so that the transaction apparently did not happen, then it was a double spend14:00
xtalmath"even not the seller who loses his wares: it could be a rare reorg, combined with the buyer not noticing he still has his coins, or noticing and refusing to resend his coins."14:00
kanzurewhy'd you stop keeping track?14:01
xtalmath(keep in mind this does not only relate to physically shipped goods, for which the victim has ample time to check if he still has his funds, but also for digital goods, like another cryptocurrency)14:02
xtalmathtrack of what?14:02
kanzurewell for other cryptocurrencies there are things like spv proofs per the sidechain work14:02
kanzuretrack of bitcoin14:02
xtalmathyou mean of 6 confirmations?14:03
kanzurethe spv proofs are useful for doing cross-chain swaps of cryptocurrency14:03
kanzureas described in https://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf14:03
kanzureas for keeping track it was a question re: "i'm not really following the current state of bitcoin, as of since a couple of years,"14:04
xtalmathkanzure: I have the impression bitcoin has not really underwent more innovation?14:05
xtalmathalso, busy with different things, like "modern times" to pay rent14:06
kanzuresidechains are a method of transporting bitcoin into another blockchain with a separate history and separate protocol where experimentation can be more friendly14:06
kanzuresee https://github.com/ElementsProject/elementsproject.github.io14:06
kanzurehere is a good overview too http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-sidechains-elements/14:07
xtalmathyeah that would be instantaneous. but you want a coin as an economic tool to be used for general transactions. not just pegged sidechains.14:07
kanzure(it's the video from the github git repo, except typed instead of videoed)14:07
kanzuretransfers into sidechains are unfortunately not instantaneous14:07
xtalmathwhat I mean is that, if a bitcoin reorg occurs, it affects the pegged sidechain AFAIK14:08
kanzurealso you may be interested in hearing about http://lightning.network/14:08
kanzurei'm not sure how close you have been paying attention to bitcoin, lot of fun stuff i can show off14:08
kanzureyes, it does effect spv proof-based transfers into sidechains, and as a result you have to wait like 100 confirmations to be safe14:09
xtalmathkanzure: btw is that pegged side chain thing currently operational on the actual bitcoin blockchain, or a theoretical paper with no client yet?14:09
kanzureit's operational on testnet at the moment14:09
kanzurei wrote rpcblockchainexplorer for its release, heh14:10
kanzurehttps://github.com/kanzure/rpcblockchainexplorer14:10
xtalmathI was very interested in the SAFE network recently14:11
kanzurelinkz14:11
xtalmathsorry maidsafe14:11
kanzurei reported a huge vulnerability in their design and they just told me to piss off14:12
kanzureso i pretty much hate them14:12
xtalmathhttp://maidsafe.net/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MaidSafe14:12
xtalmathyeah I am not claiming it is mature at all, but I think it is the right direction14:12
kanzurevulnerability was reported on their mailing list somewhere14:12
kanzureit's totally broken and evil14:13
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kanzureeven ipfs would be better (and i hate ipfs)14:13
xtalmathwell the person who told you to piss off, was a visitor or the people behind maidsafe itself?14:13
kanzuremaidsafe14:13
xtalmathwhat is ipfs?14:13
kanzuremore bullshit14:13
kanzurehttp://static.benet.ai/t/ipfs.pdf14:14
chris_99have you published what you found anywere?14:14
kanzurethe vulnerability was reported to their mailing list, so it's out there14:15
chris_99aha cool14:15
kanzureplus, it turns out that gmaxwell reported the same vulnerability to them even earlier, so....14:15
xtalmathcould you find it back for me?14:15
kanzurenot at the moment, no14:15
kanzurebut it's under my username somewhere14:15
xtalmathalso as kanzure?14:15
kanzureyeah, i guess there's https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2723i9/these_guys_are_creating_a_new_internet_using/chww5us14:16
kanzurehttps://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/W-n-IQ_TUis14:16
kanzure(also i met them in person when they were in texas)14:18
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xtalmathhow are they in person? not friendly?14:37
xtalmathalso I see only one person respond in that google group, (and I think your attack would work, to some extent), but to me it doesn't really look like a "fuck off", in fact he finishes his post with "So, it is definitely possible to achieve what you're suggesting, but  I'm just not sure that its effect on the network would be negative."14:38
xtalmathyour attack is quite interesting and obvious, but calculating the probability of being assigned the same files is not easy14:45
xtalmathcan we try to calculate it?14:48
xtalmatheven if we collude, the probability of getting the same file assigned is low.14:49
xtalmathalso, I am not sure if we are double blinded14:51
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xtalmathlets assume not. we try to fill our common storage capacity C (in units of files). the total network stores T files. together, under 2 users we request as many files as possible. first I ask and get C random files, then how do you try to get the same C random files assigned?14:54
xtalmathoperating on pure chance alone gives a probability of C/T for each file. multiply by C since you get C chances.14:55
xtalmathso we have C*C/T files in common14:55
xtalmathwhere C is our combined storage, and T is the network storage both in files14:56
xtalmathah way no14:56
xtalmathit is C/2*C/2*T14:57
xtalmathC = 2*I, where I is our individual storage size.14:59
xtalmathso 2 honest people with the same hard drive would each get I/(T*D) of the total network get rate (if fixed rate per get), for a total of 2*I/(T*D).15:02
xtalmathif we have the same hard drive but collude we would get I/(T*D) each just like the honest people, but we would have some hard drive space left, because of the collisions15:04
gradstudentbotI don't have enough data to form a hypothesis.15:06
xtalmathhow much do we have left? 2*I - I*I/T, (our real storage, minus feigned storage)15:06
xtalmathso we get the same money but our HDD cost is less: so colludewage/honestwage = ($$$ / (2*I-I*T)) / ($$$ / 2*I) = 2*I/ (2*I-T*I)= 2/(2-T) ugh, something is wrong, it goes negative, while everyone is earning a positive15:10
xtalmathah I see15:11
xtalmathcolludewage/honestwage = ($$$ / (2*I-I*I/T)) / ($$$ / 2*I) = 2*I/ (2*I-I*I/T)= 2/(2-I/T) so if we have 2% of network capacity, or each 1%, then we can earn 2/(2-0.01) faster as the rest per GB. so we earn 2/1.99 times faster15:14
xtalmath1.00502512615:14
kanzurehm.15:15
xtalmathso it does work, but we hardly feel it, instead of getting 1$ per whatever it buys in hosting, we get $1.00502512615:15
xtalmathI only calculated it for 2 colluders15:16
xtalmathI will think of 3 now15:16
xtalmathso it is definitely an attack, but it is an economic one.15:18
xtalmathoh I forgot something, its even worse15:20
xtalmathman this is not easy to calculate15:20
xtalmathah no it seems right15:22
xtalmathso as long as the network is small (not many people donating HDD storage), an amazon kind of attack is cheap15:23
xtalmathwait, you are right kanzure: I can use the $1.005025126 to buy storage from the rest at the rate of $115:25
xtalmathso without buying real storage our fraction of the network increases15:25
xtalmathwe can simply store the data back in the network15:26
xtalmathso that grows exponentially15:26
xtalmathlol15:26
kanzurenah it seems fair to assume that you are not buying storage from the network, because presumably your request/response rate has to be faster than the network can handle15:27
xtalmathat first slow though, but put some up front for amazon attack, grow exponentially, then recover amazon cost15:27
kanzureactually nevermind, i'm not sure anymore.15:27
kanzurealso you have no guarantee that if you did request data from the network, that you wouldn't hit yourself again15:28
xtalmathkanzure: you should store it under a new file, there will be some overhead though, zip it first?15:29
xtalmathits going to be compression wars15:29
xtalmathI wonder if a  user can drop a file, and get a random one assigned instead?15:29
xtalmathso that any files we dont have in common are replaced till we have them in common?15:30
xtalmathif that is possible we earn $2 for every $1 the rest would have earned per GB15:30
gradstudentbotCan I get some more media?15:31
xtalmathif the duplication factor is D, it only makes sense to collude up to D persons (if we can drop files and get new ones reassigned until they collide)15:31
xtalmathso with D people we earn $D instead of $115:32
xtalmathbut I assume there is some mechanism that prevents you from saying, "nah, next file"15:33
kanzureyou can always just burn your identity and start again i think15:33
xtalmathas far as I understood, there reward functions are far from set in stone though15:33
xtalmathkanzure: yeah, I think so15:34
xtalmathbut perhaps the mechanism is not reputation based, but simply waiting in line or smth.15:34
xtalmathanyway the files that you throw away... sooner or later it is noticed15:36
xtalmathperhaps they'd block your IP15:37
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kanzurehopefully the network is using i2p/tor/something15:38
xtalmathI had the impression they punched their own tunnels, but not sure if they allow for tor bridge or smth15:38
xtalmathalso, the conjuring would simply become an app on the MAIDSAFE network15:39
xtalmathso if redundancy is D, all members of this cartel would earn faster than honest, and at a higher rate than scheming couples15:42
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xtalmathdid you confront them with this in Texas as well? or only online?15:44
xtalmathI really wish they can make it work though.15:45
kanzurei mentioned it to them in person but i didn't dwell on it15:45
xtalmaththey gave no reaction back in person?15:45
kanzurenah just stuff like "it's up in the air" and "we're working on things, keep tuned" bleh15:46
xtalmathyeah, the way I see it, they only described the parts they know how to do in the papers, the exact reward mechanism doesn't seem fixed.15:47
xtalmathalso, its not a flat rate per storage unit. you are encouraged to link it all to one identity when you are under a limit, and encouraged to split up if you are above the limit15:48
xtalmathI mentioned that to them but the reaction was something like: "we are definitely open to suggestions..." or the like15:48
xtalmathstill, I like some of the things/tricks with crypto they show15:49
xtalmathbut its not a complete solution yet15:49
xtalmathshow early and people complain its broken, hide until finished and people complain they had no word on its construction...15:50
xtalmathI personally slightly prefer the hide until finished. people can always fork later15:51
xtalmathbut yeah, people invested in them, so they got to show their progress15:51
kanzurethey invested back in 2004-2006, it's totally stupid that they still haven't figured out an architecture or pivoted or folded15:51
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gradstudentbotHuh? I haven't read any papers on that.15:51
xtalmathgradstudentbot: its on their page15:52
gradstudentbotAre the marmosets for anyone to use?15:52
kanzuregradstudentbot: yes, but you should write a paper about this15:52
gradstudentbotThe paper was rejected.15:52
xtalmathgradstudentbot: are you a bot or a person?15:53
gradstudentbotDropped my sample.15:53
xtalmathlol15:53
kanzure:-)15:53
kanzure.g site:youtube.com shit graduate students say15:53
yoleauxhttp://ipv6.google.com/sorry/IndexRedirect?continue=http://www.google.com/search%3F%26q%3Dsite:youtube.com%2520shit%2520graduate%2520students%2520say%26btnI%3D&q=CGMSECoBBPgCAXIwAAAAAAAIaucYmamKrgUiGQDxp4NLrVpqqRkNhn_7EXdSeU3KJpO6rK015:53
gradstudentbotkanzure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovEghdXC4tE15:53
kanzure.title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovEghdXC4tE15:54
yoleauxShit Graduate Students Say - YouTube15:54
gradstudentbotkanzure: Shit Graduate Students Say - YouTube15:54
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xtalmathits yours?15:55
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kanzureyes15:56
kanzurehe's just here to lighten up the atmosphere15:56
xtalmathyeah it works15:56
kanzurehe's based on the "shit graduate students say" video15:56
xtalmathtook me a while to realize15:56
xtalmathI should be putting the trash out, and then go to sleep15:57
xtalmathI will try to recalculate the collisions, and wage advantage tomorrow more accurately, and take into account their sigmoid reward structure...15:58
xtalmathI might write it out and post it on their forum or smth15:58
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justanotheruseroh gradstudentbot is back?16:40
gradstudentbotIOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'modules/quotes.txt' (file "/home/bryan/code/gradstudentbot/modules2/quotes.py", line 8, in pick_quote)16:40
justanotheruser>:(16:41
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kanzurefixed16:44
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justanotheruseroh gradstudentbot is back?16:53
gradstudentbotI was searching for a new particle that alters gene expression, didn't find it, but didn't refute it's existence either. But then some other asshole professor at another school found it.16:53
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kanzurebeep boop17:36
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kanzureyashgaroth: also you could test against chimps which are close enough to humans18:06
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yashgarothwell mice are probably good enough for working memory, but for the language acquisition...do they do sign language or is that mostly gorillas?18:10
kanzurewell bonobos can point to pictographs18:12
yashgarothjust use bonobos, cheaper to feed18:12
kanzurefor example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7ttRaXlnfs18:13
yashgarothchimps are also more likely to spontaneously tear off various parts of your body, and then shove them into various other parts of your body18:14
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kanzureapparently most of the mouse tests of working memory are just tests of short-term memory instead http://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_the_latest_behavior_test_for_working_memory_in_rats20:01
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xtalmatheudoxia: apparently the DSMC (Direct Simulation Monte Carlo method) simulates arbitrary finite Knudsen number flows, it is statistical but should also give correct continuum mechanics flows! source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_simulation_Monte_Carlo22:02
xtalmath"The DSMC method has been extended to model continuum flows (Kn < 1)  and the results can be compared with Navier stokes solutions."22:02
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xtalmathis deuterium / deuterium oxide a controlled substance?23:48
-!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]23:59
--- Log closed Thu Aug 06 00:00:32 2015

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