2015-09-22.log

--- Log opened Tue Sep 22 00:00:35 2015
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kanzurehttp://www.nature.com/news/chinese-scientists-row-over-long-sought-protein-that-senses-magnetism-1.1839704:41
kanzure.title http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11434-015-0902-004:41
yoleauxMagnetogenetics: remote non-invasive magnetic activation of neuronal activity with a magnetoreceptor - Online First - Springer04:41
kanzure"exogenous magnetoreceptor, an iron-sulfur cluster assembly protein 1 (Isca1)"04:42
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superkuhEh... we'll see. I'm doubtful.05:49
kanzurewasn't there some non-receptor magnetic sensor in a bunch of other organisms?05:55
superkuhThe only ones I can recall are the the bacteria with iron concentrations in their tips and the free radicals recombination effected by local field mechanism proposed for coloration of vision.05:57
kanzureand the bird magnetism stuff?05:57
superkuhThat's the latter one.05:57
kanzureah right, the bacteria stuff are the magnetosomes and magnetite clusters. right.06:00
kanzurehttp://2014.igem.org/Team:Kyoto/Project/Magnetosome_Formation06:00
kanzure"glial cell symbiosis with a magnetic bacteria (Magnetospirillum magneticum AMB-1) serving as a linker between reception of wireless magnetic field and optogenetic neuro-stimulation output" http://2011.igem.org/Team:NYMU-Taipei06:02
kanzure"gene expression in the presence of a magnetic field, in-vivo magnetite formation in the magnetosome vesicles of the magnetotactic bacteria, Magnetospirillum magnetotacticum strain AMB-1, mms-6" http://2011.igem.org/Team:Toronto/Project06:02
kanzure"construction of a magnetosome membrane in ecoli" http://2013.igem.org/Team:OUC-China/Review06:02
kanzureand another ecoli/magnetism thing (looks similar to the kyoto project??) http://2013.igem.org/Team:Chiba06:02
kanzure"fluorescent magnetosome to visualize magnetic fields w.r.t cells" http://2013.igem.org/Team:UNIK_Copenhagen06:03
kanzure"magnetic remote control of ecoli, production of various magnetic nanoparticles" http://2014.igem.org/Team:Berlin/Project06:03
kanzureall i got.06:03
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kanzurehttp://2011.igem.org/Team:NYMU-Taipei/optomagnetic-design "We chose the original BRET method using coelenterazine (luciferin) as substrate in BRET 1 method (See Figure 1). What we do is anchoring the YFP on the N-terminus of Mms13 and r-Luciferase on the C-terminus. We expect that when the magnetic force applied on the membrane and changed the conformation of Mms13 would lead to the close proximity between YFP and r-Luciferase and thus ...06:11
kanzure... induce fluorescent phenomenon by BRET method)(See Figure 1)."06:11
kanzure"theoretically, BRET will be an constitutive phenomena, leading to uninhibited excitation / unregulated inhibition of target neurons"06:11
kanzure"In our BiFC-based BRET design, we anchored a half of a YFP fragment (with YFP C-terminus) on the inter-helical inhibitor (the CHAMP peptide design). By using the inhibitor, we can affect the tight interaction between Mms13’s two helices, and the constant light induced form BRET phenomenon can also be blocked. The rest of the design is to get the other half of the YFP (with YFP N-terminus) anchored on the N-terminus of Mms13 and ...06:12
kanzure... anchored the r-Luciferase on C-terminus of Mms13. The result is that when there is no magnetic force applied to Mms13, two helices of Mms13 will have further inter-helical distance due to the inhibitor (CHAMP design) and the BRET phenomenon will not perform due to the lack of close proximity between two helices. When we apply magnetic force to Mms13, the helices of the transmembrane protein will be pulled together and will induced ...06:12
kanzure... the BRET phenomenon to emit fluorescence."06:12
kanzurelolz http://2011.igem.org/wiki/images/a/a7/Electromagnet.png06:13
kanzureoh weird their pic for "Tensile Force-Dependent Neurite Elicitation via Anti-b1 Integrin Antibody-Coated Magnetic Beads" is pretty awesome, http://2011.igem.org/wiki/images/6/6a/Cell_NYMU.png06:14
kanzure"Fig. 5: Neurite initiation and elongation in response to applied force of only 450 pN. (Joseph N. Fass, et al., 2003)"06:14
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maakujustanotheruser: yeah the David Allen book, which it looks like you found07:37
maakukanzure: you have a system that works. don't change it07:37
maakujustanotheruser: GTD is an exhaustively engineered (no holes) organizational system, so some of the people who find it and are in need of it tend to become fanatical07:39
maakuthe relevance to this channel is that you need some sort of organization framework and planning procedures in order to turn yourself into a planning and ruthless execution machine to achieve your goals07:41
maakuthere are many systems that would work, but GTD is simply the most effective of the accessible ones07:42
kanzurei spent many months in high school with a per-minute todo list and schedule, and all i got was an overdeveloped sense of hatred07:42
maakuhaha that is most definately doing it wrong07:43
kanzure(it was definitely my own fault, but it's not like anyone pointed out "hey a schedule like that is fucking insane you know")07:43
maakukanzure: btw do you have a writeup of how diyhpl.us works? i saw you work at scaling bitcoin and it seems to be very low friction. automatic mirror of some local repository you have?07:44
kanzureblame jrayhawk because he wrote a pile of software called piny, which is very minor posix-compliant glue between ikiwiki (git-based wiki) + cgit + some other stuff i'm forgetting.07:45
kanzurehttp://piny.be/piny-hosting/07:45
maakui'll look into that07:46
maakuthanks07:46
kanzuregit server plus some hooks to recompile statically generated wiki07:46
kanzuremaaku: actually one of my weaknesses is non-interrupt-based work scheduling, been trying to figure out what the non-interrupt model is like07:50
kanzure.title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1025582107:58
yoleauxSyrian war spurs first withdrawal from 'doomsday' Arctic seed vault | Hacker News07:58
maakukanzure: that's exactly where list management is most effective, in my experience. honestly maybe you should give GTD a look, at least as a framework for building your own system08:01
kanzuremy problem isn't remembering lists of things to do, my problem is more related to a hatred of habits or something08:02
maakuwhen I'm executing well, it's cause I'm drilling down a list picking things I'm motivated to work on, while trusting that my prior project-planning self put those things on a list for a reason08:02
maakuwell you seem to have developed some really productive ones with respect to systemizing knowledge08:03
kanzurethanks, although some of it is just "has anyone actually checked if they can read all of this content? let's see..."08:03
maakuwhat I'm saying is -- having seen you at work, briefly -- you seem to be executing on habits that keep such knowledge from being lost, even if it is just self-hosted piny, typing really fast, and an assortment of bots08:05
kanzureyep, lots of that is low-friction stuff as you noticed. just type commands -> stuff happens.08:05
maakuso i take that as proof-point that you could do the same for organizing non-interrupt work via lists or whatever08:05
maakuman low-friction is key08:06
kanzurei was also able to convince andytoshi to start using jotmuch (the bookmarking tool i use)08:06
kanzurehttps://github.com/davidlazar/jotmuch08:07
maakuthat's the #1 insight I've had regarding everything involving humans. make doing the desired action less friction than doing anything else. that's the only way you'll convince anyone (including future self) to do it08:07
kanzuremaaku: did you ever see fenn's sleeplog (activity log)? http://fennetic.net/sleep/08:08
maakunice, thanks i'll use that too08:08
maakuand no, i havne't thanks for th elink08:08
kanzuresome things are just not going to be low friction08:09
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maakubuilding a habit gives other things a friciton disadvantage08:11
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kanzureactually i guess i still can't come up with examples of non-interrupt getting-things-done. how sad.08:12
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kanzurefenn: your sleeplog link to http://www.lauriefrick.com/time-slices/ is broken now, and it's not on the wayback machine.08:13
kanzureperhaps it is this one https://www.artsy.net/artwork/laurie-frick-daily-time-slices-apr-2308:14
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archels"Perhaps a better phrase than artificial intelligence would be “intelligent artifice”"09:21
maakukanzure: so you work on a firefighting model?09:26
kanzuresorta... hard to explain. hm.09:30
maakujustanotheruser: I sent StealerofSuns here. he/she made a "I just realized my expected lifespan is too small to do everything I want, how do I fix that? (ps: I'm an engineer)" post on reddit09:31
maakuthey need to get a bouncer though09:31
kanzureit's firefighting but the fires are used as reminders to go refactor some broken crap or whatever09:32
kanzureand sometimes i have enough "carry-over" bandwidth to sustain something for days but a lot of that is interrupt-driven too.09:34
maakujustanotheruser: I'll go find him on reddit again and send him instructions for a proper IRC client ;)09:34
maakukanzure: there are lots of people who are quite successful that way. i've had some as managers (ugh).09:34
JayDuggerHeh. My sympathies.09:35
kanzurenot all fires need to be fought individually, but often they are good indicator of deeper problems09:35
JayDugger"Ugh" strikes me as polite.09:35
kanzureand why focus on 1-on-1 firefighting when you can invent stuff like the firetruck or the extinguisher09:36
maakuJayDugger: you learn how to not look like a fire. it also kills you a little bit as ahuman being09:36
kanzure... or chemical propellant, for that matter.09:37
maakukanzure: well to use the healthcare analogy, doing triage has its place. there are people whose only job is to fix trauma that comes in the door. but prevention is also important and takes planning09:38
JayDuggerHeh. That's all too familiar too.09:38
maakueh, screw analogies09:38
kanzureyes one way to fix triage is to make a better bullet. er, wait..09:39
JayDuggerGood thing we aspire to something better.09:39
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kanzuremaaku: yep, a lot of my planning is also interrupt-driven.09:40
kanzurefor example, i came up with my next-generation cryonics plans when i was yelling at gwillen in here earlier this year hehe09:41
kanzurecrap that was seven months ago09:43
maakuand you havne't implemented it yet? get on it man!09:43
JayDuggerHooray for timestamped logs!09:43
kanzurewell i expected that sort of project to take a few hundred years for humans, but much less for other animals09:45
kanzureso what's a few months in the scheme of things? that's only what, 3^^^^^^^^3 human lives according to trollkowsky, right?09:45
maakuactually I've just made the Significant Realization that for me it changed when I had kids -- a toddler is a human tornado, and managing two of them of non-stop firefighting09:46
maakuif I am to get anything done in work or in off-work hplus projects, it is by non-interrupt planned execution09:46
kanzureand before you were not firefighting?09:46
kanzurehabitual planned execution?09:46
maakui started GTD around the time we had our first kid. i'm mostly habitial now although prolonged fires (i.e. bitcoin block size...) have pulled me out from time to time09:47
maakualso corresponds with my least productive time periods, at least by memory09:47
kanzurei'm gonna hate life even more if it's really just habits vs. firefighting, that sounds so incredibly lame and boring09:47
maakueh, i'm not sure you have an accurate view of what you call 'habits'09:48
kanzureelaborate09:48
maakuit's more about decoupling planning from executing. so when I'm in-the-flow-state planning, I'm all vision-y and trying to architect something grand, while reducing to executable tasks09:49
kanzureflow-state planning is completely unrelated to actually doing things09:50
maakuand during the week, if it is a good week, I'm freeing myself from worrying about priorities and just looking at the output of that planning and saying 'hey, that looks interesting right now; i'll do that'09:50
kanzure"hey, that looks interesting right now; i'll do that" sounds suspiciously similar to interrupts :-)09:54
kanzure"server is dying, pull up pull up" "hmm that looks interesting"09:54
maakukanzure: the difference is whether you are looking at what the world presents to you, or what you purposefully aranged to be presented to your future self09:55
maakubut I suspect we are 90% talking past each other09:55
kanzureno, you're right, i missed the planning part09:56
kanzure"and now i shall plan for some magic to happen" alas..09:56
maakuwell that's what GTD is, ultimately, just an intricate scheme for scheduling future reminders to yourself09:57
maakuwhose achilles heel is IRC. time to get back to work dammnit10:00
kanzuremaaku: i have been tracking every conversation since 2009, and my highest code output days (both in quality and quantity) are also the days with the highest amount of irc. so you shouldn't necessarily assume high irc is equivalent to low productivity.10:01
kanzureer, highest amount of unique-people conversations10:02
kanzure(net only, doesn't hold for in-person)10:02
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justanotheruserkanzure: a per-hour todo list plus another list for dated todos is my current system... I don't think I could conform to a per-minute todo list10:36
justanotherusermaaku: okay, I'll go and find the audiobook10:36
kanzurebuilds character, yo10:36
kanzureminute by excruciating minute10:36
maakujustanotheruser: if you fail to find the audiobook I can get it to you10:37
justanotheruserI'm not good enough at estimating time to get minute-by-minute right, I usually fail with hour-by-hour10:37
kanzurewasn't estimations, was just pre-allocated10:37
maakukanzure: were you running through a checklist, in order?10:38
kanzurenah more like calendar plus todo list, lots of reserved chunks on calendar in very tiny blocks10:38
justanotheruser"IRC for 10 minutes"10:38
kanzureyes :-(10:38
maakusounds excruciatingly boring10:39
kanzureyup10:39
kanzurebut on the bright side i have developed an immunity to calendars, so that's something10:39
maakucalendar is only for things that have to happen at a very specific time (e.g. meeting, drop kid off at school)10:39
maakueverything else is 'I'll work on it when I damn well feel like it, but i'll keep a reminder to get it done so I don't forget'10:40
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maakui made that mistake once of micromanaging time. didn't even work because I spent more time making the todos than executing10:40
kanzureyeah i had like 1-2 hours of todo maintenance/day10:45
maakuhrm jot / urlsnap doesn't seem to be able to fetch titles10:51
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kanzureyeah i haven't used that part10:54
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ujjwaltHi guys anyone here?11:37
ujjwaltHeard enough of why biology is like software. I want to know why biology is not like software11:37
kanzure"... there is no source, the bytecode has multiple reentrent abstractions, is unstable and has a very low signal to noise ratio, the runtime is unbootstrappable, the execution is nondeterministic, it tries to randomly integrate and execute code from other computers... multiple reentrant and self-modifying abstractions. absolutely everything has subtle side effects."11:39
ujjwaltany resource material i should go through to understand these properties11:42
ujjwaltand what do you mean there is no source?11:43
justanotheruserujjwalt: biology is much more efficient at simulating life than a program11:43
ujjwaltif it’s not too much pain can you explain your points in a little more depth?11:43
juri_there are only binaries.11:43
kanzuredna isn't exactly "source code"; the real "source code" is stuff like the set of constraints that make the whole thing work at all, plus the dna as well.11:44
kanzure.. or something.11:44
ujjwaltjustanotheruser: It’s not simulating life. It is life?11:44
ujjwaltDNA is like the bytecode of a VM right?11:44
justanotheruseryes the most efficient simulation of something is that thing11:44
kanzureif it's bytecode then it's terrible bytecode, because it's self-modifying and binds to random crap, and self-execution causes self-modification11:45
kanzureujjwalt: what is your background? biology? software?11:45
ujjwaltsoftware11:45
kanzureujjwalt: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/11:46
kanzureujjwalt: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/11:46
ujjwaltWhy does everyone refer to the 4th edition of Molecular Biology of the Cell11:46
ujjwaltwhy not the latest?11:46
kanzurebecause books are evil11:47
kanzurealso there is "molecular biology of the gene" but i forget which one is which11:47
kanzurethe synthetic biology primer might be okay for starting out but whatever11:47
kanzureif you want to be extremely productive then just focus on lab protocol manuals only11:48
ujjwaltso engage me here11:48
kanzurefor everything else, wikipedia is usually sufficient, in tandem with the table of contents of campbell biology, molecular biology of the cell, or some other textbook11:48
kanzure(or the index.. but the index is less entertaining i guess.)11:49
kanzurehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_Biology_of_the_Cell_(textbook)11:49
ujjwaltwhat you are seeing is that dna along with the chemical context just executes. It modifies itself and behaves arbitrarily11:49
ujjwalt*saying11:49
kanzurenot arbitrarily11:49
ujjwalti mean11:49
ujjwaltbased on the chemical context but the situation fluctuates11:50
ujjwaltbecause it keeps changing - both the bytecode and the VM11:50
kanzurethis article is surprisingly sparse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA11:50
kanzurewhat's the "VM"?11:50
kanzurereality?11:50
ujjwaltthe chemical context of the cell11:51
ujjwaltdifferent proteins and chemicals and their concentrations11:51
ujjwaltHave you seen this - http://ds9a.nl/amazing-dna/11:51
kanzuresure; but also, the dna molecule itself has physics of its own.11:51
kanzureyes actually i have seen that, and yawn11:51
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ujjwaltit helps a software guy like me but I’m aware its not all that accurate11:51
kanzurethis is a fairly old page by now11:51
ujjwaltYup11:52
ujjwaltI’m new to synthetic biology so I’m trying to understand why exactly is it so hard to engineer biological systems11:52
kanzurefor molecular biology here's some animations that are a nice way to jump in, https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgO7JBj821uH_-G9H0lnYZkIrg0kqj1Ka11:52
ujjwaltwhat do we need to do/invent/discover to engineer these systems11:52
kanzurewell, for example, dna synthesis is sorta complicated11:52
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/11:53
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ujjwalthttp://www.atdbio.com/content/17/Solid-phase-oligonucleotide-synthesis11:53
kanzurealso there are issues with genotype/phenotype prediction, so you often have to do bruteforcing or just sequence everything and find an existing implementation of what you want11:53
ujjwaltthis is pretty good too I guess11:53
kanzureand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligonucleotide_synthesis11:54
kanzuredidn't know about the atdbio article though...11:54
ujjwaltThere’s a pretty good course on dna synthesis on edX11:54
ujjwalthttps://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:KyotoUx+001x+2T2015/courseware11:55
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ujjwaltyeah so you were saying11:55
ujjwaltwhy it is hard to engineer these systems11:55
ujjwaltI’m assuming we’ll never reach the point of electronics with natural systems11:55
ujjwaltI see more promise in actual synthetic biology - non living molecular systems with bare minimum components to do one and only one thing11:56
ujjwaltalso I sometimes think what does it even mean to engineer a living system?11:56
ujjwaltevolution solves problems in far more novel ways than I think we can come up with11:56
kanzure"novelty" is just a matter of hiding your sources11:56
ujjwaltdirected evolution seems sort of the only way11:57
kanzureyou can directly engineer certain combinations of known components, but results aren't guaranteed in the same way that slapping together multiple transistors are guaranteed to work together http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/11:58
ujjwaltso we need better synthesis and sequencing obviously11:59
ujjwaltwhat else?11:59
ujjwaltaccurate computer models of biochemistry should be possible given our knowledge of physiscs right?11:59
kanzuremostly we need better synthesis more than we need better sequencing, at this point11:59
kanzurefaster design-test cycles are also very important12:00
ujjwaltdo you think if synthesis costs drop down to those of an ipad today we’ll mostly develop everything by the virtue of everyone being able to do amaetur experiments12:00
kanzure"we'll mostly develop everything by virtue of".. ?12:01
kanzureer, yes, if synthesis cheaper then it is much easier to synthesize more things. not sure what you're asking?12:01
ujjwaltwhat I’m saying is12:01
ujjwaltdo you think that the lack of quantified models and research on understanding systems would be remedied if anyone with $500 can do biology at their place12:02
kanzurei don't think it's a lack of quantified models or understanding12:03
ujjwaltthen?12:03
kanzurecheap equipment is a remedy to expensive equipment12:04
ujjwalttrue12:07
ujjwaltbut we really do not understand biology well enough to reliably do synthetic biology.12:08
ujjwaltthe vision of future12:08
ujjwaltthats being shown12:08
ujjwaltis that of software or computer systems12:08
ujjwaltis that even possible in such a dynamic system that is constantly changing12:08
kanzurewhere is that being shown?12:09
ujjwaltsee when I learnt abut SynBio12:10
ujjwaltthe image that I got was12:10
ujjwaltthat soon we’ll be able to do with biology that we do with electronics12:10
ujjwaltsome people are even proclaiming today as 1975 in computers industry12:11
kanzurepeople do that everywhere no matter what- diybio, synthetic biology, bitcoin, etc.12:11
ujjwaltHow successful are biobricks? Someone told me they’re great as an introduction and motivating students but not so much for serous work12:11
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ujjwaltSorry I’m asking quite arbitrary questions. Trying to make sense of where we actually are amongst all hullaballo being made about synthetic biology12:14
ujjwaltSince I don’t have a baground in biology and have a lot to catch up I’m not quite getting what are the major roadblocks (besides sequencing and synthesis and cheap equipment) in terms of the science and what degree of engineering are we aiming to achieve12:15
kanzurefor many things it is more convenient to use gibson assembly than biobricks12:15
ujjwaltis biology only being thought of as a manufacturing technology to produce materials and drugs? Sensors are other application12:15
kanzurethat is a strangely general question12:16
ujjwalthehe12:17
ujjwaltexcuse me for that12:17
ujjwaltthere’s mayhem in my head right now12:17
ujjwaltWhat I’m basically trying to gauge is why synbio is so important? Is it actually going to deliver or is all this excitement based on popular media12:18
ujjwaltbecause there’s a difference between what one reads on Wired and what scientist on the ground say12:19
kanzurewell that's your first mistake.. why should anyone read wired??12:19
ujjwaltHahaha12:19
ujjwaltbecause I’m ignorant12:19
kanzureyes only the propers get to read wikipedia......>?12:20
ujjwaltLOL12:20
ujjwaltWell one last thing. While we’re trying to engineer systems and they do work in special conditions - how much do we really understand in designing these systems12:20
ujjwaltTo what degree of reliability can we engineer biology today?12:21
ujjwaltJust trying to gauge our understanding of the principles involved12:21
kanzurehmm http://trammell.ventures/about.html12:42
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ujjwaltkanzure: what about them?12:57
kanzurewell if i hadn't pissed him off i think he would have funded more projects that are on-topic to this channel12:58
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ujjwaltlol13:33
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fenn"you can directly engineer certain combinations of known components, but results aren't guaranteed" <- part of this is because claude shannon was a genius and biologists haven't caught up yet15:31
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kanzureer, what would claude shannon do to fix biology?15:48
fenncome up with a digital coding theorem for networks of genes and gene products16:04
fennso you could combine "biobricks" or whatever and it would actually work16:05
kanzureit's weird that andy ellington hasn't published much of his anti-biobricks rants16:05
kanzure.tw https://twitter.com/anselmlevskaya/status/26828246791031603216:06
yoleauxBiobricks have always been an engineering cargo cult. Biology runs on DNA, not dogma. Build things that work. #synbio http://ellingtonlab.org/blog/2012/11/09/on-apologetics/ (@anselmlevskaya)16:06
fenndead link16:07
kanzurehttp://www.ellingtonlab.com/andys-blog/2014/12/1/on-apologetics16:07
kanzurehm he wrote something for beacon-center.org http://beacon-center.org/blog/2014/09/01/beacon-researchers-at-work-directed-and-real-evolution/16:12
fennhmm i remember some anti-biobrick rant on andy's blog that was better than this16:14
kanzurei forgot how awesome this guy is. originally when i learned about him i was surprised that he was gangbanging with stu kauffman, which was one of the reasons i asked to work with him.16:15
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kanzurei wonder if he has a bruteforcing-only argument that he could use against mike darwin16:17
kanzurewhat's the actual opposite of bruteforcing?16:19
fennanalysis16:20
kanzurehow is that not bruteforcing?16:21
fennyou complete in o(1) instead of o(n)?16:21
kanzure"magic happens here"16:21
fennsure, we've only moved the evolution up one level of abstraction16:21
fennmumble mumble eureqa symbolic regression16:23
kanzurenah they turned that into some random company16:23
fennthe idea is still good16:23
kanzurepostmark your hatemail to hod.lipson@cornell.edu16:24
fenndear hod, don't be a dick16:24
kanzure"4 new PhD positions available - (ME or CS): Looking for creative candidates with research and/or project experience. PhD topics include  Robotics and Evolutionary Robotics, 3D Printing and digital manufacturing, Machine Learning and Deep Learning, Evolutionary Computation and Artificial Life. Please apply to Columbia. See application tips."16:24
kanzurehttp://lipson.mae.cornell.edu/16:24
kanzureoh "I am moving to Columbia University in NYC in July 1st, 2015"16:25
kanzurehttp://me.columbia.edu/hod-lipson16:26
kanzure"Soldercubes: a self-soldering self-reconfiguring modular robot system" http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10514-015-9441-416:27
fennwhen did "renting an article" become a thing?16:29
kanzureblame readcube16:30
fennhttp://creativemachines.cornell.edu/soldercubes16:31
fennhuh it looks just like the magnet cube thingy16:32
kanzuredisturbing that wayback machine didn't have this page. i thought they prioritized academic/.edu stuff.16:32
fennsoldercubes is not what i expected at all16:32
fenni was thinking something like the harvard self assembling bee robot16:32
kanzure.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxSs1kGZQqc16:34
yoleauxPop-up Fabrication of the Harvard Monolithic Bee (Mobee) - YouTube16:34
fennyeah that16:34
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fennthe majority of the material is in the folding jig, which can be reused multiple times for better material efficiency16:38
fenni don't really buy any arguments about cost of materials not mattering because it's small16:39
fennthe cheaper the whole system is, the more bees you get16:39
kanzure"using DNA-protein conjugates to guide protein-protein assembly" http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bc500473s16:43
kanzure"3d printing with nucleic acid adhesives" http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ab500026f  "By relying on specific DNA:DNA interactions as a “smart glue”, we have assembled microparticles into a colloidal gel that can hold its shape. This gel can be extruded with a 3D printer to generate centimeter size objects."16:44
kanzureer... okay.16:44
kanzure"This material can be assembled under biofriendly conditions and can host growing cells within its matrix. The DNA-based control over organization should provide a new means of engineering bioprinted tissues."16:44
kanzure"Directed evolution of the substrate specificity of biotin ligase" (using in vitro compartmentalization) http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rodney_Kincaid/publication/259491349_Directed_evolution_of_the_substrate_specificity_of_biotin_ligase/links/0c960539996df46ed1000000.pdf16:45
kanzure17-fold higher specificity in 6 rounds of selection16:46
kanzure"mock selection to validate the selection strategy" neat idea16:47
kanzure(page 4 figure 1)16:47
kanzureaptamer/antibody-coated hollow gold nanospheres for binding to epidermal16:48
kanzuregrowth factor receptors16:48
kanzureblah stupid paste. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn406632u16:48
kanzure"Continuous in vitro compartmentalization directed evolution of a ribozyme ligase" looks like a simplified lab/class exercise http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bmb.20742/abstract16:51
fennso that might be cool if they had grown centimeter sized crystals of DNA-bound nanoparticles instead of extruding a gel16:51
kanzure"Engineered DNA ligases with improved activities in vitro" by fusing t4 dna ligase with various dna-binding proteins and dna repair proteins (7x increased activity of dna ligase) http://www.enzymes.org.nz/publications/PEDS-2013-Wilson.pdf16:53
kanzure"Endowing cells with logic and memory" by using regulatory/genetic circuits http://www.rle.mit.edu/sbg/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Endowing-cells-with-logic-and-memory.pdf16:59
kanzure"In vitro selection of proteins via emulsion compartments" (review) ("up to 10^10 compartments per mL") http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1046202312000643 "The key issue in designing and executing IVC selections is how to couple genotype and phenotype"17:00
kanzureback to hod,17:06
kanzure"Bitblox: Printable digital materials for electromechanical machines" http://creativemachines.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/IJRR14_MacCurdy.pdf17:06
kanzurefigure 12 shows a bitlbox inchworm robot with six linear actuators17:08
kanzureand figure 11 shows an infrared remote control with 130 bitlbox units17:08
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kanzureuses http://www.voxcad.com/17:11
kanzurehttps://github.com/jonhiller/Voxelyze17:11
fenni'm not really a fan of using voxels unless absolutely necessary17:17
fennoh this is actually low-rez finite element analysis17:18
maakupretty much the only thing voxels are good for ;)17:23
fennMRI/CT stuff too17:23
maakuor minecraft engineering17:23
fennnah minecraft sucks17:24
* fenn hides17:24
maakunever played it17:24
maakuwatched the mojang documentary though, which was cool17:24
fennit's basically a demo of really lame voxel physics and some tech tree stuff thrown in17:25
maakui'll have time to play games after death is defeated17:25
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kanzure"Reverse-engineering non-linear analog circuits with evolutionary computation" http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-08123-6_919:10
kanzure"Results show that an incremental algorithm outperforms naive approaches, and that it is possible to evolve robust nonlinear analog circuits with time-domain output behavior that closely matches that of black box circuits for any time-domain input."19:10
kanzureelectrowetting-based pick-and-place http://www.google.com/patents/US2015019292319:11
kanzure"modularity evolves not because it conveys evolvability but as a byproduct from selection to reduce connection costs in a network" http://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/alife14/978-0-262-32621-6-ch007.pdf19:13
kanzure"Ribosomal robots: evolved designs inspired by protein folding" http://creativemachines.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/Ribosomal%20Robots.pdf19:16
kanzurei don't understand that last one. the figures are also wacky.19:16
kanzurewhat does it mean to "encode a motor" into a "ribosomal robot tape"19:17
kanzurelooks like they mean "the motor is physically attached inside of the ribbon/tape"19:17
nmz787howdy19:22
yoleaux17 Sep 2015 15:27Z <chris_99> nmz787: http://www.peachyprinter.com/#!peachy-printer-kit/c1uoo19:22
nmz787abetusk: around?19:24
abetuskhey nmz73719:27
abetuskarg... nmz78719:27
abetuskwhat's up?19:27
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nmz787hey abetusk19:51
nmz787was wondering if you had any ideas on how you might implement a web-based CAD in a different way, if you had to do it again, from scratch19:52
nmz787at least for schematics19:52
nmz787I am not sure how bleepsix is doing the drawing to screen, and grouping doesn't really seem to be in place, since when I dragged a component that they didn't stay connected19:53
abetuskhm, the schematic part was actually pretty easy.  The pcb part was the real bear.19:54
nmz787I was thinking about how to push the wire connections to openGL and thus the video card, etc19:54
abetuskI opted to not do grouping because it's hard to know how to drag lines with what component19:54
abetuskhm, yeah, if you had bigger schematics, then you could get some benefit from opengl I guess19:54
abetuskA lot of the 2d drawing stuff has the potential to be hardware accelerated anyway19:55
nmz787or even just get off to a good start, maybe there is some way to make browser handle more, so the JS does less19:55
abetuskare you asking about high level "how do I want it to act" design, or lower level software design?19:55
nmz787I had a hard time reading through the code :)19:55
abetuskyeah, it became kind of a big project.  What do you want to do?19:56
nmz787I guess at the software level19:56
nmz787just thinking if there is a way to write less lines19:56
nmz787well for the past week I created some schematics in excel, using a row for each pin to pin connection... so I really want some GUI for creating this stuff19:57
abetuskso, it may not be well documented or even intuitive, but the code structure is not that bad.  The 'tools' are mostly isolated.  The 'controller' handles most of the dispatching.  The main 'schematic' does mostly data transformations19:57
abetuskwrite less lines?  of code?19:57
nmz787but it didn't look like I could just pull the template from meowcad and the JS and plop it in my flask project... couldn't really tell where things started and ended19:57
nmz787yeah, of code19:57
abetuskso, yeah...if I had to do it again, I would isolate the network communication more and allow for a more graceful way of storing locally.  I would also focus on a message dispatch system where different elements can subscribe to different message lines instead of this weird frankenstein system that became the gui19:58
nmz787if I didn't want to use web, then I might choose something like floatcanvas with wxpython, or there like the elastic nodes example in QT    http://fado.dcc.fc.up.pt/      http://doc.qt.io/qt-4.8/qt-graphicsview-elasticnodes-example.html20:00
nmz787buttt that is assuming that those libraries optimize what they're doing20:01
nmz787and I really would prefer to go web, since I can start out as a desktop application (with a hidden local server), and then scale later to server based20:01
abetuskSo MeowCAD assumes network connectivity and transfers state change back to a central server.  The network portion of the schematic section (say) handles that communication.20:02
nmz787and plus I kind of feel Chrome or Firefox is probably more highly optimized than wxpython or QT20:02
abetuskYou can cheat and run a local Docker image but you still need a server20:02
abetuskha, I wonder20:02
nmz787I would think the browsers have more worldwide users... but maybe those users dont care as much about performance?20:03
nmz787idk20:03
abetuskyeah, I didn't relish the idea of programming in some weird windowing system that would break at the slightest whiff of a different desktop environment20:03
nmz787mmm20:03
abetuskmy feeling was that for small to mid sized circuits, MeowCAD would do fine.  By the time it got to high level circuits, one could either do OpenGL optimizations or browsers would already be fast enough20:03
nmz787hmm, yeah I didn't get that far with figuring out the code20:05
abetuskI also only discovered web workers fairly late in the project so there are some places where "hard" computations will hang the browser until they finish.  That could (and should) have been put into a separate web worker20:05
nmz787ah20:06
nmz787cool20:06
abetuskThere are other schematic (open source) projects that you might want to check out20:06
abetuskThey're not as pretty (imo) and don't use KiCAD libraries, but I think they're functional20:06
nmz787but not web based, right?20:06
abetuskyes, web based20:06
nmz787oh20:06
abetuskhttp://logical.github.io/webtronix/schematic.html20:07
abetuskhttps://github.com/logical/webtronix20:07
abetuskI know you think "it should be simple" but there is a rabbit hole, so be careful20:08
nmz787heh, that .io isn't working too well20:08
nmz787my 4k monitor seems to freak a lot of webpages out though, so hard to tell where the fault lies20:08
abetuskMeowCAD got kind of big but it also does a lot20:09
abetusklike having boards available, letting you import KiCAD libraries, being able to view and use KiCAD libraries, letting you take snapshots, etc.20:09
nmz787mmm20:09
nmz787the download button on the site didn't seem to do anything for me20:10
nmz787last night at least20:10
nmz787not sure if i needed to be signed in (I wasn't)20:10
abetuskIf all you want to do is render stuff, take a look at the 'bleepsixRender.js' file along with the 'bleepsixSchematic.js'20:10
abetuskah, maybe a bug...20:10
abetuskcan you tell me which project it is?20:11
nmz787ermm, not sure, I think I just added a resistor and capacitor and connected them together, then clicked downloa20:11
abetuskalright, sorry about that20:11
nmz787yeah this is just from clicking  'try it'20:12
abetuskblech, yep20:12
nmz787also, I am not sure if you drag a component, it seems to disconnect... but if you drag it back on top of the wire ends, does it reconnect?20:12
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abetuskyes20:13
nmz787and it is a bit weird that the wire icon tool resets back to the select pointer tool... but that is a feature request I guess ;)20:13
abetuskor at least, it should20:13
abetuskhm, yeah.  I worry about locking tools into a mode20:14
abetuskI do get that a lot though so it's something that should be figured out.  You can use 'w' as a hot key20:14
nmz787yeah was just checking out the help menu20:15
kanzurehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_compartmentalization20:15
nmz787.wik in vitro compartmentalization20:15
yoleaux"In vitro compartmentalization (IVC) is an emulsion based technology that generates cell-like compartments in vitro. These compartments are designed such that each contains no more than one gene. When the gene is transcribed and/or translated, its products (RNAs and/or proteins) become ‘trapped’ with the encoding gene inside the compartment." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_compartmentalization20:15
nmz787I don't even see wires in that webtronix20:16
kanzure"meganucleases are DNA cleaving enzymes that specifically recognize long target sequences (approximately 20 base pairs)" from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4416406/20:17
kanzure"While stand-alone meganucleases are sufficiently active to introduce targeted genome modification, they can be fused to additional sequence-specific DNA binding domains in order to improve their performance in target cells."20:17
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fennnmz787: chrome is quite a pig when it comes to resource usage, even for simple text webpages20:23
fennfirefox too20:23
fenntoo much "optimization" methinks20:24
nmz787hmm20:24
abetuskright... freaking .kicad_pcb20:24
nmz787well, that may be OK since most everybody uses it20:24
nmz787if it makes less work coding for me... then I may take it20:25
fenni only use it because i'm forced to by all the wacky shit html out there20:25
nmz787since I have design-rules to think about coding too... anything GUI is just fanciness20:25
kanzureif there are blood tests or other assays for cross-animal xenotransplantation compatibility, then we should be selecting small animal breeding for organ compatibility to pass thoes (and more) tests.20:25
nmz787kanzure: that is a very good idea20:25
nmz787are there animals which we can significantly modulate their refresh cycle (i.e. reproductive age)20:26
kanzuredid you also see the idea that goes like "select bacteria that helps human wound healing"20:26
nmz787and such that we can still get them to grow big enough to be transplantable20:26
nmz787no I didn't see that one20:26
nmz787you might think that one is already covered20:27
fennnmz787: also webgl doesn't work on my computer (and will never work because nobody cares) so please have a fallback to software rendering20:27
nmz787we just have to learn which to encourage or not kill20:27
kanzuredid you see "use psychometric testing and toxoplasma gondii in directed evolution / selection to get viable nootropics for mice based on toxo migration in specifi target brain regions"?20:27
CaptHindsightso like a supersized hamster heart for human implant?20:27
kanzurei'm p. sure we use pig organs for something20:27
nmz787hahah, kanzure no I didn't... friggin pinky and the brain over here20:27
kanzurehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenotransplantation#Potential_animal_organ_donors20:27
nmz787yeah but if you could breed pigs in days or few weeks instead of months...20:28
fennheart valves was the first widespread use20:28
kanzurenmz787: okay one last one then, did you see the "use selective breeding of animals to survive cryopreservation and cryoresuscitation (including cryoprotectant toxicity)"?20:28
nmz787they only have to get large enough to test the compatibility... and grab some sperm/eggs I guess20:28
nmz787hmm, I may have been around for that, or the beginnings of that talk20:29
kanzureare heart valves all we're doing?20:29
kanzurei think there was something about pig skin20:29
nmz787I remember you posting frozen-dog-that-came-back stuff a while ago20:29
kanzure"Chimpanzees were originally considered the best option since their organs are of similar size, and they have good blood type compatibility with humans, which makes them potential candidates for xenotransfusions. However, since chimpanzees are listed as an endangered species, other potential donors were sought. Baboons are more readily available, but impractical as potential donors because they are hilarious."20:30
kanzure"Pigs are currently thought to be the best candidates for organ donation" what was that theory about early hominid cross-breeding with pigs, again?20:30
kanzurewait what "Human organs have been transplanted into animals as a powerful research technique for studying human biology without harming human patients. This technique has also been proposed as an alternative source of human organs for future transplantation into human patients.[8] For example, researchers from the Ganogen Research Institute transplanted human fetal kidneys into rats which demonstrated life supporting function and growth.[9]"20:32
nmz787aliens helped with some alien-love-booze20:32
kanzurei guess that's one way to solve the problem20:32
kanzureso breed mice that are more-compatible with human organs, store human organs in mice, keep mice alive or transfer organs when mice reach end-of-life to other mice20:32
kanzurethis seems like a highly ridiculous workaround20:32
nmz787mmm20:32
nmz787but a viable one20:33
fenntiny organs at least20:33
fennpretty sure this was in ghost in the shell20:33
fennpig farm with cloned human organs waiting around in case you need them20:34
fennthey got into trouble when the pigs had human cyberbrains and were interfaced to the net20:34
kanzurei hate it when that happens20:34
nmz787$1 mil grant... sorry I can't apply: https://www-ssl.intel.com/content/www/us/en/wearables/americas-greatest-makers.html20:34
* nmz787 ZOOLANDER: WHAT IS THIS, A TRANSPLANT LAB FOR ANTS!!!20:35
abetusknmz787, ok, I had to hack some things together but the download should be working.  I should be better about getting downloads to work under failure conditions and I should be better at creating .kicad_pcb files...20:35
nmz787was it something that my design was doing (being crappy and not logical)?20:37
nmz787oh, also the other day I showed this to someone, and they seemed to get stuck on the layout part20:37
nmz787some cookie or something?20:37
nmz787like even if they went back to the base URL20:37
nmz787ah, yeah even now for me... I can't see the homepage, keep getting redirected to /portfolio20:38
kanzurealso, i think i have mentioned this before, but small animal organ survivability outside of the animal body should be selected for as well. things shouldn't just die on us because it's lacking blood for a few hours.20:39
fennfuck "makers"20:39
fennwhat a rip off20:40
fennwhere's my jetpack20:40
nmz787abetusk: got a download! pretty cool!!20:40
abetuskyeah, be wary of the .kicad_pcb file, it's probably got a lot of issues20:42
nmz787hehe20:43
kanzurewhy don't have i graph that shows me a comparison of creatures with largest brains, shortest lifecycle and most cognitive ability or suspected cognitive ability.20:43
nmz787i've been known to manually hack kicad files20:43
kanzureoh and most offspring20:43
kanzurespider/octopus is probably all i'm going to get there20:43
abetusknmz787, this was a pattern I settled on....The idea is that you're now using an 'anonymous' account that persists.  You can clear history by going into the 'signup' (or is it 'register') page and hitting the appropriate button.20:43
* nmz787 turns out it was the raccoon@20:43
nmz787!20:43
abetuskI wanted to funnel people into the 'register' page.  I think I should probably have the anonymous account be allowed to see the landing page though...20:44
abetuskwhat I didn't want is to have someone spend a lot of time hacking around on a project, accidentally close the tab and lose all work.  This way work is saved.20:44
nmz787abetusk: is the minus key supposed to do something? do I need the developer console open?20:44
fenntwo axis optimization (brain vs lifecycle) means you have to pick some arbitrary tradeoff constant20:45
nmz787abetusk: ahh, I see, I guess that wouldn't be incompatible with letting them see the homepage again20:45
kanzure(((one of the ideas was "select an existing animal with reasonable cognitive ability, then reduce brain size while keeping cognitive ability in tact, whether through selecting for hydrocephaly or whatever else, like physical intervention during neural tube growth, then figure out connectome or other data from the signifiantly smaller data set presented")))20:45
kanzureyes i'm sure the tradeoff would be something like "well now you have giant brained creatures that do nothing but brainy things and burp out eggs" which is ok for most projects20:46
fenncuttlefish20:46
abetuskBesides some special considerations, the anonymous account is an actual account.  Once you login to GitHub for example, you can't see the landing page anymore.  The expectations are weird since you haven't explicitely logged in (you've just been assigned an 'anonymous' account) but that's the basic reasoning20:46
fennhttps://www.xkcd.com/520/20:47
kanzure(although after finding how smart snails seem to be, perhaps that's enough)20:47
nmz787abetusk: is there a way to indicate ending a line without hitting escape or connecting it to a component?20:48
nmz787like to add a netname?20:48
nmz787oh, I need to add a label first I guess20:48
fennkanzure: no i mean you have to decide how much braininess is equivalent to how much fecundity, in order to optimize both of them at the same time20:48
fennit's okay if all their legs fall off and they have to eat from a tube20:49
kanzureyes to the leg thing20:49
kanzuretube feeding is inconvenient when you have a million hatchlings20:50
fennoh i see, you're trying to simplify the brain scanning problem20:50
kanzureyes20:50
kanzurei wasn't going to mention it, since i've said a similar thing before20:50
abetusknmz787, double click20:50
fenni just can't read and think at the same time apparently20:50
kanzurea common infliction20:51
kanzureyeah i mean i'm not very interested in learning that 80% of mouse brain mass is useless20:51
fennwell mice are not very smart because they're inbred20:51
kanzurei suspect a lot of the core cognitive abilities do not require that much brain matter, and smaller amounts of brain matter are easier to scan and trace20:52
fennyeah but a lot of "core cognitive abilities" are the other parts of brain that aren't neocortex20:53
fennmaybe you'll get more out of looking at the way birds work and how they evolved homologous function in non-cortex parts of the brain20:54
fenn"20:55
fennHomolog of Mammalian Neocortex Found in Bird Brain"20:55
fennthis is news?20:55
kanzurealso unlear to me if larger brain would be easier to work with- e.g. get something size of whale brain. seems like more places for "interesting stuff" to hide and be hard to trace, though.20:56
kanzure*unclear20:56
fennwell it's certainly harder to scan20:56
kanzurewe should ship some whale brain to todd and friends20:57
nmz787yeah I wonder, are there micrographs of whale brain?20:57
nmz787are the cells just as dense?20:58
kanzureinternet is currently not very good at providing me arbitrary resolution scans of arbitrary brains20:58
nmz787stupid old internet20:58
fennstupid new internet20:58
nmz787.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9A0Vufw3NQ20:59
yoleauxSimpsons Internet Line - YouTube20:59
kanzurei wouldn't mind a collection of formaldehyde-preserved mammalian brains for home decoration21:00
fenni'll see what i can do21:00
kanzure"and this over here is my megaptera terrarium"21:02
kanzurenmz787: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/megaptera/Megaptera%20brain%20has%20a%20mass%20of%206800%20g,%20one-fifth%20of%20a%20percent%20of%20its%20body%20mass.pdf21:03
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/megaptera/Structure%20of%20the%20cerebral%20cortex%20of%20the%20humpback%20whale,%20Megaptera%20novaeangliae%20(Cetacea,%20Mysticeti,%20Balaenopteridae).pdf21:03
nmz787.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=6&v=mdDrQ9-5Ntc21:03
yoleauxChimp fights man - YouTube21:03
kanzure"tumblr-style selective breeding and directed evolution: from a collection of 10 different species, randomly stitch animals together and pick the survivors over multiple generations"21:07
kanzureer, where both members of a pair survived21:08
fennthat's more or less how bacteria do it21:10
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kanzurei wonder if that "implant human organs into pigs for incubation and survival" strategy would work for human brain matter. seems hard to judge compared to brain-in-a-jar which is also speculative. but at least the piggies could be selected for how well they keep other pig brains alive or other chimp brains alive.21:11
kanzure(whereas it is harder to breed jars for better performance)21:11
fennbrains aren't _that_ special21:12
fennat least i don't think they don't have to be in the skull cavity21:12
kanzurein jars? need blood flow (easy) but also careful hormone balane across like 50-100 different molecules. ugh.21:13
kanzure*balance21:13
fennin a pig abdomen21:13
fennin a jar in a pig abdomen :)21:13
fennaka cyberbrain21:13
kanzurei would really prefer plain old jars but can't figure out how i would regulate blood contents sufficiently. seems like careful balancing act that would require a gazillion sensors and ability to filter stuff out of bloodstream.21:14
fennthat flexible carbon nanotube electrode array will finally solve the electrical spinal interface problem21:15
kanzurebeause no microelectrode penetration?21:15
fennbecause mechanical impedance matching to neural tissue21:15
fennthe glass/metal electrode arrays all resulted in tissue death in a couple months21:16
fenni don't remember if the carbon nanotube thingy had a dissolving needle for each electrode or not, i might have imagined that21:17
kanzureyes well throw "evolved biocompatibility with our shitty microelectrodes" on to the list anyway21:17
kanzuresomeone should bother to look around for exceptionally-slow brain aging people21:19
kanzure(or anyone that has a non-cancerous inrease in brain mass after some period of aging-related brain mass decline; this too would be quite useful)21:20
fennall the supercentenarians had ok brain function21:20
kanzurebrains could potentially hang around in pig abdomens for quite a long time21:20
kanzurebrain function seems to be okay for lots of people even as mass declines. still freaks me out though.21:21
kanzure30%, come on21:21
fennmeh just grow more21:22
kanzurehm this number does not seem to be on wikipedia21:22
fennyou wanna live forever, punk?21:23
nmz787.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mc4iaN-_RQ21:23
yoleauxhomer - shut up brain or ill stab you with a que tip - YouTube21:23
kanzurewell i wouldn't mind a few mind-numbing centuries more of this crap if that's what you're asking21:23
fennno i'm just ironically bringing up stupid identity issue crap21:23
fennnevermind21:24
kanzurenot impersonating heinlein? too bad.21:24
fennCome on, you sons of bitches, do you want to live forever?21:25
fennBattle cry at the Battle of Belleau Wood, World War I, June 191821:25
fenn"half a million" per starship trooper, well we're quite a ways past that already21:28
fenngoogle says $850k per soldier-year21:29
kanzurewhat was sirius xm's pig lung thing, again?21:29
kanzurehttps://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/martine-rothblatt-she-founded-siriusxm-a-religion-and-a-biotech-for-starters/2014/12/11/5a8a4866-71ab-11e4-ad12-3734c461eab6_story.html21:30
kanzure"On a Virginia farm, she’s also raising genetically altered pigs, in the hope that someday their lungs (and other organs) will be modified for use in human transplant, creating a nearly inexhaustible supply of organ donors."21:30
kanzureand then separately "In a lab on Spring Street, Rothblatt’s newest project appears lifted from science fiction: disembodied but breathing human lungs, hissing away in dome-shaped incubators, part of a clinical trial attempting to mend donated but not-quite-accepted-for-transplant lungs so that they can actually be placed in living human beings."21:30
kanzurehttps://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT0223412821:31
kanzurenice "This study is currently recruiting participants."21:31
fennwell that shouldn't be hard21:31
fenni don't get the 18+ requirement21:32
fennkids are supposed to die because they can't sign a contract?21:32
kanzurestrange that the pigs are "genetically altered" instead of just bred.21:33
kanzurewhat possible "genetic alterations" could they have bothered to picked. hm.21:33
fennwell there's a whole bunch of options in the xenotransplantation article on wikipedia21:34
kanzurelike all terrible things in this world, i'm sure the details are available from the uspto21:34
kanzurehttps://patents.google.com/?q=%22united+therapeutics%22&q=lung21:35
fenn"1,3 galactosyl transferase gene knockouts; Increased expression of H-transferase (α 1,2 fucosyltransferase), an enzyme that competes with galactosyl transferase; Expression of human complement regulators (CD55, CD46, and CD59) to inhibit the complement cascade"21:35
kanzure... oh.21:36
fenn"None of the major religions object to the use of genetically modified pig organs for life-saving transplantation."21:37
fennnow there's a head scratcher21:38
fennoh, according to rothblatt21:38
fennright...21:38
kanzurewhy pigs, again? why not human abdomen.21:40
kanzureoh right, selection21:40
kanzurelots of rough edges even if blood group compatibility with human21:40
fennsure it would probably be feasible to grow extra human organs in humans too21:41
kanzurepig-human brain interation will be ugh21:41
kanzure*interaction21:41
kanzureextra human organs cause signaling problems (including w/ extra brain), although i suppose existence of pregnancy might suggest this is not completely problemati21:42
kanzure*problematic21:42
fenni'm not too worried about that, it's not like you're adding an extra chromosome or an extra gonad21:42
fennpancreas may be problematic, or maybe not21:43
fennextra liver tissue would be a benefit i'd think21:43
kanzureyou're getting all the crazy neurohormone output from an extremely stressed detached brain... that's bound to cause problems in the human host.21:43
fennwhy would it be "extremely stressed"?21:43
kanzurewhy wouldn't it be?21:44
fennum, because it's not doing anything?21:44
kanzurebrains don't normally do that21:45
fennis a human in a sensory deprivation tank "extremely stressed"?21:45
kanzureafter 100 hours, sure. absolutely.21:45
kanzureit's not just neural input/output stimulation though, it's everything else that gets dumped into the blood supply as a messaging system for the brain to manage itself and its host.21:46
kanzureplus severed neural tissue during extraction, like spinal cord21:47
kanzureanyway, pig hosts can be selected that help manage and reduce guest brain stress21:48
CaptHindsightmaybe India, grow organs back already sold along with an extra, I'm sure you'd get volunteers21:49
kanzurethat's the place to go for surrogate pregnancy, yeah21:50
fenni'm not finding any information about extended duration sessions in a sensory deprivation/float/isolation tank21:58
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nmz787abetusk: just found this, it is helpful https://github.com/abetusk/bleepsix/wiki/0_Home22:19
nmz787abetusk: looking at your pykicad repo, have you used python sexpdata?22:22
nmz787abetusk: also not sure if this is interesting or not https://github.com/nmz787/kicad-bom-tool22:23
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fennjuri_: is there any interest in the open source car community in building the now-defunct aptera? do you kno what happened to all their cad models development work and test data?22:46
fenn"Aptera USA has most of the original company’s prototypes, equipment, patents and designs, so it wouldn’t be starting from scratch." -> dead23:18
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