| --- Log opened Sat Sep 26 00:00:15 2015 | ||
| --- Day changed Sat Sep 26 2015 | ||
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| kanzure | maaku: we could also convince him of hplusroadmap things by suggesting mars-compatible ecoli engineering projects and stuff. | 04:52 |
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| kanzure | i think john cumbers was working at nasa on a synthetic biology project for such | 04:53 |
| kanzure | and there's been at least a handful of igem projects for similar things | 04:53 |
| kanzure | also http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Pioneer%20Organisms%20Nominated%20for%20Terraforming.htm | 04:55 |
| kanzure | kartik gada says that humanity+ has correctly held on to the funds for the reprap grand prize, v. exciting | 04:57 |
| FourFire | finally ordered these: https://www.electronic-shop.lu/EN/products/155046 | 05:11 |
| FourFire | I'll let everyone know how the BCI project progresses | 05:11 |
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| kanzure | .title | 05:56 |
| yoleaux | Muscle Sensor v3 | SPARKFUN SEN-13027 | Electronic Shop S.à r.l. | 05:56 |
| kanzure | "Biomass generation with Arthrospira platensis and Arthrospira maxima could decrease the shipped wet-food mixed-menu mass for a Mars stay and the return voyage by 38 percent." | 06:07 |
| kanzure | "Polyhydroxybutyrate synthesis with Cupriavidus necator would allow astronauts to produce the raw material for 3-D printing, lowering the shipped mass needed to make a 120 cubic meter, six-person, 3-D printed habitat by 85 percent" | 06:07 |
| kanzure | "An engineered species of the bacterium Synechocystis could replenish stocks of the anti-inflammatory medication acetaminophen in just a few days." | 06:08 |
| kanzure | .title http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/12/102/20140715.full | 06:08 |
| yoleaux | Towards synthetic biological approaches to resource utilization on space missions | Journal of The Royal Society Interface | 06:08 |
| fenn | a dose of acetaminophen is 200mg | 06:08 |
| fenn | .wa mass of a staple | 06:09 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 06:09 |
| fenn | shameful | 06:09 |
| fenn | 34mg | 06:10 |
| kanzure | wasn't there a freitas index of engineered organisms for various planetary colonization reasons | 06:11 |
| fenn | there's an entire book trilogy by kim stanley robinson | 06:12 |
| kanzure | or maybe it was a freitas index of terraforming-related organism stuff. | 06:12 |
| JayDugger | I'll check Fogg's Terraforming after I'm off the phone. | 06:16 |
| kanzure | "Chroococcidiopsis is a rock-dwelling cyanobacterium highly resistant to desiccation, hypersalinity, and temperature swings found in extremely arid environments. Carnobacterium spp. has recently been shown to grow in permafrost at very low atmospheric pressures and without oxygen. Methanogenic archaea combining carbon dioxide and hydrogen could be critical in promoting rapid greenhouse warming. Many of these organisms function best as ... | 06:18 |
| kanzure | ... members of trophic and bioengineered consortia, so they should not be seeded in isolation." | 06:18 |
| kanzure | yeast-based production of melanin to warm mars http://2010.igem.org/Team:Valencia/Terraforming | 06:20 |
| fenn | no comment | 06:20 |
| kanzure | i am not sure whether people have been looking at terraforming into a human-compatible environment, or an environment compatible with at least one (or more) organisms whatsoever | 06:21 |
| fenn | it would have to be a mostly CO2 atmosphere for a long time until enough nitrogenous comets can be diverted | 06:22 |
| fenn | face mask but otherwise a chilly shirtsleeve environment | 06:22 |
| fenn | white sky | 06:23 |
| kanzure | non-human-specific terraforming might be easier than human-specific terraforming (although for mars it sounds like lots of carbon dioxide is an achievable goal) | 06:23 |
| fenn | plants would grow, that's a pretty good outcome i think | 06:23 |
| kanzure | with the right engineered organism i would expect to see large chunks of atmosphere (of the planets with atmosphere) or surface to be covered in weird color microbe growth within <1 year | 06:24 |
| kanzure | plants is slightly more advanced than i was anticipating, but sounds good to me | 06:24 |
| fenn | well, exponentials are weird | 06:25 |
| kanzure | yes depends on rate of growth | 06:25 |
| fenn | you never see a pond half-covered in duckweed | 06:25 |
| kanzure | and yet algal blooms never take over the entire ocean | 06:25 |
| fenn | yeah i wonder what the limiting nutrient in martian soil is | 06:26 |
| fenn | probably something silly like selenium | 06:26 |
| kanzure | maybe algal blooms do take over the entire ocean (once in a while) and we haven't been looking long enough | 06:26 |
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| kanzure | or, as algal blooms increase in surface area, there's a larger volume of viruses floating around that they have to defend against, and viral replication is faster than algal replication | 06:29 |
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| kanzure | or, we do have full-ocean algal blooms we just don't care because things seem to be working as-is | 06:29 |
| fenn | martian soil is probably nitrogen limited | 06:33 |
| kanzure | put some cow embryos in orbit and then uh.. hm. | 06:34 |
| fenn | ocean algal blooms are caused by nutrient upwellings from iron-rich deep water (black smoker etc) or fertilizer runoff | 06:34 |
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| fenn | all these papers are based on meteorites and "regolith simulant" from hawaiian volcanoes | 06:38 |
| fenn | what was the point of sending all those robots if not for exactly this kind of data? | 06:38 |
| kanzure | should be easy to convince maaku's friend that dna synthesis is v. useful for terraforming reasons | 06:40 |
| fenn | the mars colonization effort failed because all the research was done on yahoo groups~ | 06:42 |
| fenn | jeez just have them read "red mars" if they haven't already | 06:43 |
| kanzure | eric hunting says it failed because nobody does anything | 06:43 |
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| fenn | yes, a huge problem indeed | 06:47 |
| JayDugger | Fogg gives Table 5.11, Characteristics of Some Terrestrial Organisms and an Ideal Martian Organism from NASA SP-414, 1976: On the Habitability of Mars: An Approach to Planetary Ecosynthesis. | 06:54 |
| JayDugger | That source might be available on the NASA TRS or the like. | 06:55 |
| JayDugger | The table only lists green algae, lichen, moss, and cyanobacteria. The source predates synthetic biology and the Viking landers. | 06:55 |
| fenn | "On the habitability of Mars" http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770005775_1977005775.pdf | 06:56 |
| JayDugger | Beat me to it. | 06:56 |
| kanzure | -O "On the habitability of Mars.pdf" --user-agent="chinese hackers" | 06:57 |
| JayDugger | I humbly suggest we let them have it. They need all the help they can get with their terrestrial environment and its pollution. | 06:58 |
| JayDugger | There's some interesting stuff on the server. | 07:02 |
| JayDugger | "Can Terrestrial Microbes Grow On Mars?" http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130000557.pdf | 07:03 |
| fenn | section 8 in that paper (page 89) is about genetic engineering of terraforming organisms | 07:03 |
| fenn | previous paper | 07:03 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, a little on the underwhelming side, too. | 07:04 |
| JayDugger | Limiting nutrient in Martian soil, probably water. | 07:05 |
| JayDugger | "The Biotoxicity of Mars Soils" http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20100042558.pdf | 07:05 |
| fenn | i'm not convinced that water is as much of a problem as nitrogen | 07:07 |
| fenn | especially once you get to blowing up ice caps and such | 07:07 |
| JayDugger | "The ultraviolet environment of Mars: biological implications past, present, and future" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103500963930 | 07:08 |
| JayDugger | Ha! Arthrospira platensis, my friend Spirulina. | 07:09 |
| JayDugger | Guess my wife's not coming to Mars. She hates the smell of spirulina. | 07:10 |
| fenn | chlorella tastes better and grows faster | 07:11 |
| kanzure | moon first? | 07:12 |
| fenn | what about it | 07:13 |
| fenn | terraforming the moon would be worse than useless | 07:13 |
| kanzure | not terraforming | 07:14 |
| kanzure | just microbes | 07:14 |
| fenn | not gonna happen | 07:14 |
| fenn | no atmosphere, severely nutrient limited, ridiculous extremes of temperature and ultraviolet radiation | 07:14 |
| kanzure | at the poles? | 07:15 |
| fenn | no light | 07:15 |
| kanzure | everyone's a critic | 07:15 |
| kanzure | okay i am gonna go hang out with some birds http://vinsweb.org/ bbl | 07:16 |
| fenn | the moon is good for making things to launch into space | 07:16 |
| fenn | fiberglass, aluminum alloys, semiconductors, etc | 07:16 |
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| JayDugger | She hates chlorella too. | 07:21 |
| JayDugger | Why spoil so much good hard vacuum with microbes? | 07:21 |
| fenn | apparently if you grow it in different nutrient-limited broths it tastes like different things, a nitrogen rich broth yields a meaty algae, a nitrogen poor yields a starchy algae,e tc | 07:22 |
| fenn | it amuses me that people think a lunar colony can be sustained solely on exporting liquid oxygen for rocket fuel | 07:23 |
| JayDugger | I didn't know that. I don't eat it for the taste, but that would help. | 07:24 |
| JayDugger | Do you know if you can buy different strains with different flavors? | 07:24 |
| fenn | i don't know | 07:24 |
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| maaku | kanzure: so I was listening to a video panel discussion with Ralph Merkle and was really disappointed to hear him go on a tirade about how privacy was meaningless in the digital age, with his optimal outcome being everyone knowing everyone's business | 08:18 |
| maaku | fenn: one of the fun things about our modern understanding of Mars is the amount of ice just under the surface | 08:24 |
| maaku | warm the planet above 0c and you'll get an ocean covering the northing hemisphere | 08:24 |
| maaku | and continuing the terraforming process in the ocean would be much easier | 08:25 |
| maaku | fenn: what do you think doesn't work about lunar fuel depot economies? | 08:25 |
| fenn | nobody will be using oxygen for imparting delta-v | 08:25 |
| fenn | it will all be ion drive or momentum exchange tethers | 08:26 |
| maaku | fenn: either we're talking past each other on timeframes, or you are incredibly optimistic about technology development | 08:29 |
| fenn | timeframe of a manned lunar colony | 08:30 |
| maaku | <10 years if someone actually wanted to do it | 08:30 |
| maaku | forever if no one cares | 08:31 |
| fenn | what would you do with that much oxygen in lunar orbit in 10 years? | 08:31 |
| maaku | not just LOX but LH2 as well. have you seen Jeff Greason's fuel depot talk? | 08:32 |
| maaku | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy2kIPLsUn0 | 08:32 |
| maaku | the main point is that with <4km/s dv, it is possible to build reliable, reusable, cheap vehicles | 08:33 |
| fenn | most proposals involving h2 are recent as water wasn't known to exist (and until clementine wasn't proven to exist) | 08:33 |
| maaku | using chemical propulsion | 08:33 |
| fenn | mumble mumble solar wind | 08:34 |
| maaku | so if you map the solar system by delta-v, you have fuel depots every 3-4 km/s | 08:34 |
| maaku | Earth-Moon L-point, Earth-Sun L-point, Martian Moon, orbit of venus, etc. | 08:35 |
| fenn | maybe i'm missing something.. why is is cheaper to ship fuel to a fuel depot than to ship fuel inside a spacecraft? | 08:36 |
| maaku | and you can use the same cheap reusable, 100's of cycles before maintenance vehicle to putter around the solar systme | 08:36 |
| maaku | fenn: well you ship fuel in a spacecraft to the fuel depot to get the fuel there of course | 08:37 |
| maaku | but it's cheaper because of the rocket equation, basically. if you need to go 8 km/s dv , it is WAY harder than going 4 km/s dv twice | 08:37 |
| fenn | but there's nothing at the earth-moon L point | 08:38 |
| fenn | so you have to do it twice anyway | 08:38 |
| maaku | fenn: and in the future there will be nothing except a fuel depot | 08:38 |
| maaku | it's an economics and mechanical engineering argument, not a destination argument | 08:38 |
| maaku | we make fragile, single-use vehicles to make long-hual trips | 08:39 |
| maaku | Jeff/XCOR's argument is that we should make short-haul trips with reliable vehicles instead, to gain low-maintenance reusable vehilce efficiencies | 08:39 |
| fenn | heh "senate launch system" | 08:46 |
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| fenn | so greason is saying (my paraphrase) we should go to luna first and build a settlement/fuel production to fuel mars-bound ships, because we don't know enough about the biological effects of cosmic radiation | 08:59 |
| fenn | i think that's pretty wimpy | 08:59 |
| fenn | luna and mars have almost the same delta-v from earth, just fucking go to mars and skip all the prep work | 09:00 |
| fenn | if someone gets cancer on the trip to mars, they probably also would have gotten cancer on the surface | 09:00 |
| maaku | fenn: eh I won't speak to the radiation arguments. I never understood why NASA was so scared of radiation | 09:06 |
| maaku | but no, the argument is fuel depot in LEO, fuel depot in Earth-Luna L-point | 09:07 |
| maaku | only large hurdle is getting Earth -> LEO, but SpaceX has that basically solved | 09:08 |
| maaku | but for the rest, same vehicle goes from LEO -> Earth-Luna station -> Lunar surface, each step refueling | 09:09 |
| maaku | and the same cheap, reliable tanker can make trips from lunar pole to Earth-Moon station, and for every 2-3 trips make a trip to LEO to refuel that station | 09:09 |
| maaku | the reasoning for this is when you look at charts for cost-per-kg-delivered, it grows crazy fast .. either a n^3 or n^4 term, I forget | 09:11 |
| fenn | LEO->L5->mars capture is 3.9+2.2+0.7=6.8km/s vs LEO->mars capture at 3.6+0.7=4.3km/s | 09:11 |
| fenn | it's a huge detour if your goal is going to mars | 09:12 |
| maaku | but how do you get to the surface? | 09:12 |
| fenn | what does that have to do with anything? | 09:13 |
| maaku | fenn: are you bringing fuel to propulsively break to the surface? | 09:13 |
| maaku | are you bringing fuel for the return trip? | 09:13 |
| fenn | at the end of the day you're hurtling toward a planet carrying payload and have to stop somehow | 09:13 |
| fenn | if you're making fuel for mars->earth then it would make more sense to do that on deimos/phobos or mars | 09:15 |
| fenn | rather than shipping it from the moon and then back | 09:15 |
| fenn | i am using this ultra scientific diagram btw: http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/deltaveemap.html | 09:18 |
| maaku | fenn: I believe that is the plan of people who are considering this | 09:33 |
| maaku | phobos rather, I don't think deimos is expected to have water | 09:34 |
| maaku | that map is accurate btw, I know the guy who made it | 09:34 |
| maaku | came from the same community as this chemistry guy I'm trying to get to come over here | 09:34 |
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| kanzure | you could increase the temperature of mars by using giant reflector mirrors | 09:57 |
| fenn | and smite your enemies | 09:57 |
| fenn | and dig trenches | 09:58 |
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| kanzure | well yeah | 10:01 |
| kanzure | i suppose changing the orbit might be a more permanent method | 10:01 |
| kanzure | but not sure how large of a change would be required | 10:02 |
| fenn | no point | 10:02 |
| fenn | i guess for durability's sake, to prevent a climate collapse in the event of some kind of war where the mirrors are destroyed | 10:04 |
| fenn | but moving a planet is no trivial operation | 10:04 |
| fenn | it would probably take millions of years | 10:05 |
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| fenn | http://cltampa.com/tampa/could-we-move-mars-or-venus-into-earths-orbit-and-live-there/Content?oid=2034813 | 10:06 |
| fenn | original http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2869/could-we-move-mars-or-venus-into-earths-orbit-and-live-there | 10:11 |
| fenn | summary of non-squishy technology for terraforming mars: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/zubrin.htm | 10:12 |
| fenn | you could also do the orbiting rainbow lens thing to focus sunlight onto mars | 10:16 |
| kanzure | someone pointed out that we could just dig lots of irrigation ditches everywhere | 10:17 |
| kanzure | (or attempt to do silly rain alternatives) | 10:17 |
| fenn | how does that get oxygen into the air? | 10:17 |
| fenn | or change the temperature | 10:17 |
| fenn | etc | 10:18 |
| kanzure | do we have to put oxygen in the air? why not pneumatic tubes. i dunno. | 10:18 |
| fenn | because otherwise you might as well live on an asteroid colony | 10:18 |
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| kanzure | still need to water those plants though | 10:20 |
| fenn | some kind of cylinder pair that eats asteroids | 10:20 |
| fenn | oh that's just engineering :P | 10:21 |
| fenn | but seriously there are better ways of moving water around than big ditches | 10:21 |
| fenn | evacuated tube transport for example | 10:22 |
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| kanzure | some of this should go on the wiki | 10:29 |
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| kanzure | merkle privacy weirdness is probably because he doesn't expect everyone to be capable of understanding good opsec for privacy mission integrity, i am sure he thinks that it is possible to know a secret | 10:33 |
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| maaku | kanzure: the justifiable interest in terraforming Mars is in creating a biosphere2 | 11:20 |
| maaku | so the quesiton is : does that have value | 11:20 |
| maaku | otherwise there's nothing interesting about Mars vs the asteroid belt | 11:20 |
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| kanzure | luke iseman ycombinator hardware stuff podcast http://www.theamphour.com/268-an-interview-with-luke-iseman-of-ycombinator/ | 12:48 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: wow you posted that to reddit a month ago and not much of a response... sentient chemists are rare I guess? | 12:53 |
| c0rw1n | lol | 12:53 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: there were some private messages from a biochemist who had a phone call with me, but he was anti-engineering (although pro sens foundation) | 13:10 |
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| nmz787 | anti-engineering scientist? you should have lied and just said it was science. | 13:35 |
| nmz787 | like, anti GMO? | 13:35 |
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| nmz787 | how is engineering not just product/deliverable-focused science? | 13:36 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: no more like "those are just implementation details and boring, someone figured it out once so i don't want to bother" | 14:34 |
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| kanzure | juul: tell me cool things from igem | 14:56 |
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| nmz787 | I guess there is nothing cool from igem this year... | 16:27 |
| kanzure | i haven't finished reading through all the projects, only got through the first 10-20 | 16:29 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2015 | 16:29 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id= | 17:07 |
| kanzure | er.. what? | 17:07 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning. | 22:58 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Sep 27 00:00:39 2015 | ||
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