| --- Log opened Tue Oct 06 00:00:49 2015 | ||
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| kanzure | beep | 03:37 |
|---|---|---|
| justanotheruser | bop | 03:38 |
| kanzure | sup | 03:47 |
| justanotheruser | trying to organize my getting stuff done setup | 03:49 |
| justanotheruser | also trying to get stuff done | 03:51 |
| kanzure | alright | 03:52 |
| kanzure | neutrinos have non-zero mass https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10337755 | 04:01 |
| kanzure | "Dear readers, This month celebrates the 10 year anniversary of the classic book The Singularity Is Near, written by Ray Kurzweil, published in September 2005" | 04:06 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151001/ncomms9414/full/ncomms9414.html | 04:07 |
| kanzure | er.. nevermind. terrible paper. | 04:08 |
| poppingtonic | beep boop | 04:26 |
| justanotheruser | "Spire is a global nano-satellite powered data platform" | 04:26 |
| nsh | BEEEEP | 04:51 |
| nsh | .title http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15263.html | 04:51 |
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| poppingtonic | I like how nature.com links to references with context and links back to the point of the article with the reference. makes it slightly easier to read. | 05:48 |
| poppingtonic | Permacoin | 05:49 |
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| kanzure | nah not permacoin | 06:07 |
| kanzure | don't bother | 06:07 |
| justanotheruser | "Turning Bitcoin coin making into one big Wayback Machine" | 06:11 |
| justanotheruser | this should be good | 06:11 |
| justanotheruser | "Permacoins would be generated when users store archival data downloaded from a huge data pool. " | 06:12 |
| justanotheruser | Oh man, this sounds verifiable without trust | 06:12 |
| justanotheruser | meh, I'm just preaching to the choir, bye | 06:12 |
| poppingtonic | namecoin + ipfs? | 06:15 |
| * kanzure shakes his head | 06:16 | |
| kanzure | ipfs's filecoin was never going to work | 06:16 |
| * Taek self promotes Sia | 06:18 | |
| kanzure | i'll allow it but only if you promise to include criticism you've received :P | 06:19 |
| kanzure | "Computational Insights and the Theory of Evolution - Dr. Christos Papadimitriou" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP0WFbdHhJM | 06:19 |
| Taek | Sia had to be rewritten, it was originally designed as a generalize-storage-for-consensus platform, and was very broken | 06:20 |
| Taek | the biggest issue with today's platform is host selection - that's left out of the protocol | 06:22 |
| Taek | https://github.com/NebulousLabs/Sia | 06:22 |
| kanzure | someone should do a non-cryptocurrency-based storage system where people can just arbitrarily join with more random hardware. central service provider treats them like contracted hosting parties. use default legal contract and put them through onboarding process, something somewhat automated. accept even small 1 MB providers. | 06:23 |
| Taek | after the original Sia was demonstrated to be hopelessly broken, we very nearly picked a centralized model | 06:24 |
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| kanzure | "bioprinter" http://2015.igem.org/Team:TU_Delft/Design | 06:33 |
| kanzure | http://2015.igem.org/Results | 06:33 |
| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 07:07 |
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| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10338165 | 07:18 |
| yoleaux | Eugenics, Ready or Not | Hacker News | 07:18 |
| kanzure | "If you want to be pedantic, having sex with people you find attractive is already eugenics." duh? | 07:18 |
| Taek | I think a lot of people miss that point | 07:19 |
| poppingtonic | hello JayDugger | 07:19 |
| kanzure | Taek: maybe they just don't have much sex :-) | 07:20 |
| poppingtonic | did they even mention iterated embryo selection? I mean, the bostrom paper on it describes exactly why someone would want to perform embryo selection, using Tay-Sachs as an example I think. | 07:21 |
| Taek | poppingtonic: do we know enough about which genes are preferrable to make iterated embryo selection useful? | 07:22 |
| kanzure | iterated embryo selection is so weird; there's no reason to use physical embryos for that. | 07:23 |
| poppingtonic | no. the same requirement for single-generation embryo selection hasn't even been fully explored yet. | 07:23 |
| poppingtonic | whatever "fully explored" even means... this is so far out. I don't have references. | 07:24 |
| Taek | I'm 95% sure that's going to be my next startup/profession | 07:24 |
| kanzure | you can use somatic cell nuclear transfer to avoid all of the other embryo stages | 07:25 |
| kanzure | not sure why bostrom wasn't informed about this | 07:25 |
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| Taek | if you're referring to his book, he may have thought that to be too much detail - the general concept is close enough to understand what he's getting at | 07:26 |
| kanzure | no i mean the paper. which book? | 07:26 |
| Taek | he talks about iterated embryo selection in Superintelligence | 07:27 |
| kanzure | alright | 07:27 |
| poppingtonic | I think that's part of the mechanism he *skimmed* | 07:46 |
| poppingtonic | he doesn' t go into too much depth in Superintelligence. "Beyond the scope of this book" is what he might have written | 07:47 |
| poppingtonic | nickbostrom.com/embryo.pdf | 07:48 |
| Taek | 404 | 07:52 |
| poppingtonic | nickbostrom.com/papers/embryo.pdf | 07:53 |
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| poppingtonic | Taek what does Sia mean? Is it an acronym? | 08:23 |
| Taek | nah, just a phonetic. loosely pulled from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sia_%28god%29 | 08:24 |
| fenn | super intelligent acronym | 08:28 |
| poppingtonic | self-indicating acronym | 08:29 |
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| fenn | "Francis Galton had done some early psychometry, and published his results claiming that the English upper class was the upper class because they were genetically superior to the lower classes. This result was widely accepted by both the progressives and the conservatives. The difference between the left and the right was not opposition to the principle of Social Darwinism, but just what should | 08:53 |
| fenn | be done about it. The progressives advocated for eugenics to lift the lower classes from the 'genetic deficit' they were born into, while the traditional conservatives believed that this was unnecessary and that the situation as it existed was the natural order that shouldn't be fixed." | 08:53 |
| fenn | history can be so embarrassing | 08:53 |
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| fenn | another difference between humans and chimps, smaller jaw muscles: "we all share a defect in the gene that creates a protein called MYH16, a chief component of the powerful jaw muscles of many non-human primates http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040322/full/news040322-9.html | 09:03 |
| kanzure | also various throat changes that assisted with vocalizations | 09:04 |
| fenn | i haven't seen this one discussed much though, or at least i don't remember it | 09:05 |
| kanzure | see bottom left of page 7 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/language/The%20evolution%20of%20human%20speech%20-%20Lieberman%20-%202007.pdf | 09:05 |
| fenn | "Muscle sculpts bone," he says. "The structure can be modified by the forces acting on it." | 09:06 |
| fenn | By doing away with large anchors for chewing muscles, our skull may have freed itself to grow into its modern, rounded shape, says Stedman. Powerful jaws may be incompatible with powerful brains, he suggests. | 09:06 |
| nsh | On Sex, Evolution, and the Multiplicative Weights Update Algorithm -- http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/econcs/pubs/Meir_aamas15.pdf | 09:06 |
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| kanzure | yes i suppose over time muscle might be more important than bone, so the bone gets pushed around to accomodate the useful muscle | 09:09 |
| kanzure | (not in a single individual's lifetime) | 09:09 |
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| fenn | no he means the muscle literally pushes the bone around during development | 09:10 |
| fenn | with mechanical forces | 09:10 |
| fenn | fig 3 in that lieberman paper is interesting; i didn't realized the clustering of vowels was so clean and symmetrical | 09:11 |
| fenn | realize* | 09:11 |
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| poppingtonic | One thing I got from fenn's Galton quote is to place very little trust in the current time-slice of civilization's notion of "that which is good and should be promoted", if it is not evidence-based. | 09:23 |
| kanzure | how about "party lines are nonsense"? | 09:24 |
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| poppingtonic | Taek: from the paper: "Standard practice today involves the creation of fewer than 10 embryos. Selection among greater | 09:30 |
| poppingtonic | numbers than that would require multiple IVF cycles, which is expensive and burdensome. 1-in-10 | 09:30 |
| poppingtonic | selection may thus represent an upper limit of what would currently be practically feasible. New | 09:30 |
| poppingtonic | techniques for maturing eggs in vitro might make the creation of more embryos feasible, though with | 09:30 |
| poppingtonic | diminishing returns. | 09:30 |
| poppingtonic | " | 09:30 |
| fenn | again, we can do much better than just selection | 09:31 |
| fenn | here's a bunch of low hanging fruit http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/ | 09:31 |
| poppingtonic | kanzure: that too | 09:31 |
| kanzure | "maturing eggs in vitro" is skippable.. why bother going to eggs when you can just setup the problem better? | 09:33 |
| * fenn looks around for erasmus | 09:33 | |
| fenn | because cloning is bad mmkay | 09:34 |
| kanzure | i mean yes it's useful to mature eggs in vitro. sure. but the point was to.. er. | 09:34 |
| kanzure | oh is that the problem? | 09:34 |
| poppingtonic | these are very cool fenn | 09:34 |
| poppingtonic | thanks | 09:34 |
| poppingtonic | the fruits, i mean ;) | 09:34 |
| poppingtonic | The lactase persistence section mentions that other SNPs are predictive but doesn't mention which ones. | 09:35 |
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| fenn | also we can directly correct undesirable mutations with TALENs, CRISPR, zinc finger nucleases, and many other gene therapy vectors and site-directed mutagenesis schemes | 09:37 |
| fenn | instead of waiting around for the mutation to magically fix itself and select for it | 09:37 |
| fenn | genetics is pretty boring so far because nobody does experiments on things that matter | 09:39 |
| fenn | this is why we have to go dig up bodies of dead nobel prize winners | 09:39 |
| fenn | also people with musical talent, good looks, historical political figures, etc | 09:40 |
| kanzure | yes the focus on pathologies-only in science is very weird | 09:41 |
| fenn | some of these factors will turn out to be epigenetic and won't show up in their descendants, nevermind the difficulties of figuring out which genes are important only from descendants | 09:42 |
| fenn | there should be a "notable people who had this SNP" section on every page in SNPedia | 09:43 |
| kanzure | mutantpedia? | 09:43 |
| fenn | is that a thing? | 09:44 |
| kanzure | no :-( | 09:44 |
| kanzure | but there is an x-men wiki | 09:45 |
| fenn | i feel gross saying it, but there's a lot of room for branding and marketing in genetic alterations | 09:45 |
| fenn | "a study of 400 individuals" is not a captivating narrative | 09:45 |
| fenn | you have to talk to people at their level; intelligence increasing modifications won't become widely popular if it involves reading statistical studies in scientific journals | 09:47 |
| kanzure | i don't think that intelligence increase is necessarily the best way to frame it anyway | 09:47 |
| kanzure | "better language acquisition" has been my go-to recently | 09:47 |
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| fenn | please elaborate | 09:48 |
| FourFire | fenn, or they will, but only amongst academic elites | 09:48 |
| fenn | FourFire: exactly the people who don't need these modifications | 09:48 |
| kanzure | speaking multiple languages is often deemed a sign of intelligence. but also it's a practical and useful skill. | 09:48 |
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| kanzure | would be nice to demonstrate minimal exposure to multiple languages and somewhat adequate verbal skills in each | 09:49 |
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| FourFire | well I wouldn't say "don't need", but yeah, others will need them more | 09:49 |
| fenn | english is obliterating native languages all over the world anyway.. | 09:49 |
| fenn | i guess you could market it to non-english countries as "your baby will be fluent in english by age 2!" | 09:50 |
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| fenn | USA will probably ban genetic modifications soon enough | 09:50 |
| fenn | if not already | 09:51 |
| kanzure | right after they ban sex, amirite? | 09:51 |
| fenn | pretty sure it's illegal | 09:51 |
| fenn | babies come from the stork | 09:51 |
| FourFire | heh, anyone who's rich enough will just travel another country to do the gene therapy | 09:52 |
| kanzure | there's a certain subgroup that i think could be trivially marketed to | 09:52 |
| fenn | again, the people who don't "need" it | 09:52 |
| FourFire | ^ | 09:52 |
| kanzure | especially for muscle development and intelligence | 09:52 |
| FourFire | ^ | 09:52 |
| fenn | what? | 09:52 |
| kanzure | nevermind | 09:52 |
| kanzure | it's the same group that is super interested in surrogacy heh | 09:53 |
| FourFire | kanzure, you really feel annoyed by them, don't you? | 09:53 |
| kanzure | who? | 09:53 |
| FourFire | oh no I guessed wrong. | 09:53 |
| FourFire | yeah that too | 09:53 |
| fenn | fourfire try forming complete thoughts and writing them out | 09:53 |
| FourFire | funny, I was told that back when I joined that other channel | 09:54 |
| fenn | i'm just trying to fix some kind of communications breakdown here | 09:55 |
| FourFire | I assumed kanzure was referring to silicon valley nerd types, which overlaps substantially with Lesswrong, | 09:55 |
| fenn | oh | 09:55 |
| FourFire | but he is actually referring to transpersons | 09:55 |
| poppingtonic | too true.. that's what i thought | 09:55 |
| FourFire | (which also has an odd overlap with LW) | 09:55 |
| fenn | afaict the lesswrong people are not really interested in having children, i may be wrong though | 09:56 |
| fenn | too busy saving the world or whatever | 09:56 |
| kanzure | no i was not talking about transpersons | 09:56 |
| kanzure | and i was not talking about nerd types | 09:56 |
| FourFire | yeah, I said it, I guessed wrong. | 09:56 |
| fenn | what sort of person is interested in surrogacy? | 09:56 |
| FourFire | a female without the equipment | 09:56 |
| kanzure | internet masculinity subculture :P | 09:56 |
| fenn | i only know one and he's an outlier | 09:57 |
| FourFire | transpersons are outliers | 09:57 |
| kanzure | there's not enough of them anyway | 09:57 |
| fenn | i guess, it's pretty rare but not genius-level rare | 09:57 |
| fenn | i think i read 0.2%-0.5% | 09:57 |
| FourFire | yeah and in LW it's more like 1.5% | 09:57 |
| fenn | bah impossible to get reliable statistics from the internet | 10:01 |
| drethelin | lots of people in china want surrogates apparently | 10:01 |
| drethelin | to sneak around some of the 1 child laws? | 10:01 |
| kanzure | how about to sneak around 9 months of shit? | 10:01 |
| kanzure | *9 months of feeling like shit? | 10:01 |
| fenn | i thought they changed that law recently | 10:01 |
| drethelin | well that too | 10:01 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#Relaxation_of_policy | 10:02 |
| fenn | "Under the new policy, families can have two children if one parent is an only child." | 10:02 |
| kanzure | "oops we waited so long that families missed their fertility window, bwahaha" | 10:03 |
| fenn | china's policy is inherently eugenic because it encourages people to plan out when and how to have children, rather than just whatever happens | 10:04 |
| fenn | the gender ratio imbalance is evidence of this, i guess. | 10:05 |
| fenn | no takers huh | 10:12 |
| fenn | <- bad troll | 10:12 |
| fenn | "families with children with disabilities have different policies and families whose first child suffers from physical disability, mental illness, or intellectual disability are allowed to have more children" | 10:15 |
| fenn | "In most areas, families are allowed to apply to have a second child if their first-born is a daughter" | 10:15 |
| kanzure | bad idea | 10:15 |
| fenn | yeah nobody ever mentioned that tidbit | 10:15 |
| fenn | that would lead to 50% more males even without any intervention, right? | 10:16 |
| fenn | or 25% | 10:17 |
| kanzure | am i still confused about the physical number of dna molecules per human cell? | 10:17 |
| fenn | 46 | 10:17 |
| fenn | unless you have down's syndrome or something | 10:18 |
| kanzure | but.. plasmids? | 10:18 |
| fenn | humans don't have plasmids | 10:18 |
| Taek | "...there's a lot of room for branding and marketing in genetic alterations" - Genes by Dr. Dre | 10:21 |
| fenn | yes, you too could have dr. dre as a child... | 10:21 |
| xrr | I ate 100 mg vitamin E for 70 days. Achieved nothing: http://oi58.tinypic.com/70ax74.jpg | 10:22 |
| fenn | i wonder if there is a celebrity sperm bank | 10:22 |
| @maaku | one child policy was never uniformally applied | 10:22 |
| @maaku | it was always a matter of kickbacks to the local party official | 10:22 |
| fenn | my new favorite insect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Myrmecia_pilosula_specimen_mandibles.jpg | 10:26 |
| Taek | fenn: mathematical mistake. If every parent adopts the strategy of stopping at the first male child, you still end up with 50% males and females. | 10:26 |
| kanzure | i don't think those mandibles can close | 10:26 |
| fenn | female jack jumper ants (myrmecia pilosula) have 2 chromosomes; males have 1 chromosome | 10:27 |
| fenn | "They prey on small insects and use their barbless stinger to kill other insects by with injecting venom." | 10:28 |
| kanzure | what were the things you wanted to do with super-sized insects, again? | 10:28 |
| kanzure | something about food, but some other stuff i forget too? | 10:29 |
| fenn | TRY AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD | 10:29 |
| kanzure | yes because the super-sized wasps are going to construct human-habitable hexagonal living facilities everywhere, sure. | 10:30 |
| fenn | you are catching on to my schemes | 10:30 |
| kanzure | iirc partly it was just a (very reasonable) "it will be awesome, come on" | 10:31 |
| fenn | i am embarrassed you even have to ask | 10:32 |
| fenn | http://chronicle.augusta.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/12760807.jpg | 10:32 |
| fenn | https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ca/a5/fd/caa5fd5c3fc6996a9c49ea3e71996cea.jpg | 10:35 |
| fenn | the possibilities are endless | 10:36 |
| Taek | I imagine that you could learn a lot about favorable genes by applying massive amounts of machine learning, but you'd probably need 10^7-10^9 datapoints according to my early research | 10:40 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/135_Daruma%21_ID1-Monochrome_Section_Art_7.jpg wasps could be selected for physical size and adaptability to implanted cybernetic control systems | 10:43 |
| fenn | this is from intron depot 1 | 10:44 |
| fenn | oh urlcodes in filenames are bad | 10:45 |
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| fenn | somehow i have failed to find lots of dinotopia-like images of humans and giant insects whimsically living in harmony | 10:54 |
| @maaku | Nausicaä | 10:55 |
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| fenn | yeh i'm thinking like a giant rhinoceros beetle pulling a plough | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | ooh fenn | 10:57 |
| delinquentme | i have pics for yew | 10:57 |
| fenn | hexagons or gtfo | 10:57 |
| delinquentme | could you settle for triangles? | 10:58 |
| fenn | yes | 10:58 |
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| fenn | http://animemiz.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/nausicaa3.jpg | 10:59 |
| kanzure | wtf happened to that r2d2 unit? | 11:00 |
| fenn | the girl is clearly genetically engineered, note the enormous cranium | 11:00 |
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| delinquentme | http://imgur.com/gVZaVba | 11:02 |
| delinquentme | there we go | 11:02 |
| delinquentme | it was cool | 11:02 |
| delinquentme | it was big | 11:02 |
| delinquentme | and it gets bigger | 11:02 |
| fenn | is this alex iglesias' thing | 11:03 |
| fenn | i only see one triangle | 11:04 |
| fenn | grr stupid time portals | 11:06 |
| kanzure | why giant wasps instead of giant cybernetic eagles? | 11:07 |
| fenn | eagles are picky and not easily programmable | 11:07 |
| kanzure | http://rs1img.memecdn.com/planet-hopper_c_1672593.jpg | 11:10 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: ^ | 11:10 |
| kanzure | ah, better version http://www.prikol.ru/wp-content/gallery/june-2013/podborka-28062013-33.jpg | 11:10 |
| delinquentme | hah wow. . yes definitely death metal cricket | 11:11 |
| delinquentme | fenn, thats the giant mech / robot thats residing here in oakland | 11:11 |
| delinquentme | you've seen the america vas japan robot fight right? | 11:11 |
| kanzure | "heavier than a sparrow" | 11:13 |
| fenn | i've seen some name-calling on twitter but not much else | 11:14 |
| kanzure | deinacrida heteracantha, titanus giganteus, megasoma elephas elephas, megasoma actaeon, goliathus goliatus | 11:16 |
| fenn | interesting that IHMC is collaborating on the giant robot battle | 11:23 |
| fenn | "you have a choice: watch another cat video on youtube, or make your childhood dreams come true. what's it gonna be?" | 11:29 |
| fenn | that's not the most motivating thing they could have said | 11:29 |
| delinquentme | fenn, i guess that means i like cats more than you do | 11:30 |
| fenn | is this mark 1 robot at nimby? | 11:30 |
| kanzure | weird that the wiki doesn't have "biologically-plausible things that nature hasn't entirely stumbled into yet" | 11:32 |
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| kanzure | or, rather, "biologically-plausible that nature hasn't had good reason to consistently select" | 11:33 |
| kanzure | not sure where to source that sort of material from. orion's arm isn't quite the right source. | 11:35 |
| fenn | there's some stuff in http://diyhpl.us/wiki/human-modifications.csv but not nearly enough | 11:35 |
| kanzure | yeah we should get better at documenting potential human genetic alterations. including gene+cybernetic modifications. or other combinations of things. | 11:36 |
| kanzure | "we should drop pigs from airplanes and select the ones that survive" | 11:38 |
| fenn | you would get bouncing pigs, not flying pigs | 11:38 |
| kanzure | wasn't aiming for a flying pig | 11:38 |
| kanzure | just pigs that don't explode on impact | 11:38 |
| fenn | ok then. hogs away! | 11:38 |
| fenn | in general i'm still skeptical of the "throw a bunch of pigs at the wall and see what sticks" approach | 11:39 |
| fenn | surely there are more efficient search strategies | 11:40 |
| kanzure | well, genetic engineering helps, but bruteforce is surprisingly effective over the past few billion years | 11:41 |
| fenn | i hope the error in that statement becomes obvious | 11:42 |
| kanzure | humans produce a few billion years per year | 11:42 |
| delinquentme | fenn, its this robot : http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/tech/giant-robot-fight-challenge-accepted/ | 11:46 |
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| fenn | kanzure what about just selecting for giant insects? it should be easy right? | 11:56 |
| fenn | the test is very objective, just the total body mass | 11:57 |
| kanzure | sure. but i still need reminders about the motivations here, besides being awesome. | 11:57 |
| fenn | you could optimize your selection strategy | 11:58 |
| fenn | then use that strategy on other dimensions | 11:58 |
| fenn | like intelligence or whatever, where it isn't so easy to measure | 11:58 |
| kanzure | no no i mean.. iirc there was something about "grow giant crickets instead of cows, cricket meat is more efficient" or something. | 11:58 |
| fenn | meh | 11:58 |
| fenn | smaller crickets would be more efficient i think | 11:59 |
| kanzure | as for cybernetics- not sure, i guess you could have flying machines that last more than 10-30 minutes, which would be nice. | 11:59 |
| fenn | economics, it should be way cheaper to grow a wasp than to build a flying robot | 12:00 |
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| kanzure | still needs all the electronics | 12:00 |
| kanzure | i think you need cheaper than feeding a flying robot | 12:00 |
| kanzure | *you mean | 12:00 |
| fenn | .wik darpa cyborg beetle | 12:00 |
| yoleaux | "A cyborg (short for "cybernetic organism") is a being with both organic and biomechatronic parts. The term was coined in 1960 by Manfred Clynes and Nathan S. Kline. D." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborg | 12:00 |
| fenn | dammit | 12:00 |
| delinquentme | also .. next year. I'm thinking about presenting my xenozoonosis hack at deacon | 12:03 |
| delinquentme | defcon* | 12:03 |
| delinquentme | anyone want to go on stage w me? | 12:03 |
| fenn | briefly, what is your hack? | 12:05 |
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| fenn | .title http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=1421 | 12:09 |
| yoleaux | HI-MEMS: Control Circuits Embedded In Pupal Stage Successfully: Science Fiction in the News | 12:09 |
| fenn | Read more about Roachsters, full-size anthropod-based vehicles with embedded control structures from Easton's 1990 book Sparrowhawk. | 12:09 |
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| fenn | heh they have wheels | 12:11 |
| fenn | and spinal cords :\ | 12:11 |
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| kanzure | could be new line of hotwheels | 12:32 |
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| kanzure | "hello, welcome to the future, please take your flying car and gtfo" | 12:39 |
| kanzure | gah was bit for multiple days debugging that importaddress rescan=True is the default | 12:40 |
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| kanzure | justanotheruser: part of the magic is to pick good tasks with high leverage. doing a million tasks is useless if the tasks are poor quality (even if the quality of the tasks performed is high-quality). | 13:20 |
| kanzure | *quality of the work performed is high-quality) | 13:20 |
| kanzure | although if you become too discerning about task quality then you turn into jrayhawk | 13:22 |
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| jrayhawk | the causation probably goes both ways | 13:38 |
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| kanzure | re: lack of evidence of stars being moved https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10252222 | 14:35 |
| kanzure | "If binary star systems were systems in which stars were moved into the system, we should see evidence of stars being moved and consumed. I have also read about stars being created (e.g., starting a fusion process with all the hydrogen and helium in Jupiter, Saturn, etc.)." | 14:35 |
| kanzure | "There is currently no evidence which suggests stars are being moved. We should see either large gravitational tugs or engines such as Shkadov thrusters. The latter should be plainly visible. The former should be easily detected by extrasolar planet detection methods. Unless the tugs are spherical, the light curves of the tugs would definitely pique interest. In any case, moving a star seems a rather extreme and expensive measure. It is ... | 14:35 |
| kanzure | ... probably more effective to consume the star onsite and use the energy locally or send only the energy back." | 14:35 |
| kanzure | "There seems to be no evidence of stars being consumed, either. Dyson spheres (or swarms) have actually been searched for locally by comparing visible and infrared wavelengths over sections of the sky. None have been found. Intergalactic searches have also been done by looking for galaxies which glow too brightly in the far infrared. No luck." | 14:35 |
| kanzure | "It is not just a question of a mistaken belief that the artificial is natural. The properties of light are the same here on Earth as they are billions of light years away. Further, for all those galaxies and stars to be engineered in the same way aross billions of light years (with some points being unable to communicate with others since the Big Bang), is all but impossible. Life would have to evolve at effectively the same rate and ... | 14:35 |
| kanzure | ... come up with the same solutions in all those hundreds of billions of galaxies (and yet somehow be different here in the Milky Way). Given the variety of life on Earth and the variety of solutions it has evolved, that seems unlikely." | 14:35 |
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| kanzure | http://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2015/oct/05/whats-the-deal-with-modafinil-nootropic-cognitive-enhancer | 15:34 |
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| fenn | why would thrusters be visible? a good thruster sends the exhaust particles in a line | 16:01 |
| fenn | even a partial dyson sphere of perfectly flat mirrors would be almost invisible | 16:02 |
| @maaku | except for the heat signature | 16:04 |
| fenn | that's not really "plainly visible" | 16:04 |
| @maaku | agreed; i don't think adequate looking has been done | 16:05 |
| @maaku | but then I'd also expect any space faring intelligence that came from natural evolution to rapidly expand into the cosmos at near the speed of light | 16:06 |
| @maaku | so the fact that we don't see them isn't very interesting | 16:06 |
| fenn | 2015-08-01.log:04:02 < fenn> "some of the more interesting SETI signal candidates (such as SHGb02+14a) appear to emanate from interstellar space rather than a star" https://entersingularity.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/dark-extraterrestrial-intelligence/ an essay about the implications of thermal noise on the probable location of computronium | 16:09 |
| fenn | basically he says that you should expect to find advanced civilizations far out in the middle of nowhere, away from unpredictable noise sources | 16:09 |
| fenn | because computers work better at low temperatures | 16:09 |
| @maaku | present computers do.. | 16:11 |
| fenn | it's kinda funny because the "zones of intelligence" idea was a purely literary plot device | 16:13 |
| mgin | ... | 16:14 |
| fenn | ... | 16:14 |
| mgin | wouldn't you expect large energy sources where a computronium is | 16:14 |
| fenn | read the article | 16:14 |
| mgin | but probably no emissions | 16:14 |
| mgin | or little | 16:14 |
| @maaku | mgin: you would not expect energy emissions near a resource-optimizing intelligence | 16:15 |
| mgin | right | 16:15 |
| mgin | well | 16:15 |
| mgin | except it's probably going to try to expand in every direction as fast as possible | 16:15 |
| mgin | are any of you guys in school | 16:19 |
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| kanzure | we are all far too cool for school | 16:42 |
| mgin | really? | 16:43 |
| kanzure | approximately! | 16:43 |
| mgin | where does one find interesting people to talk to | 16:43 |
| kanzure | dunno, i just send lots of bookmarks to people by email until they become a friend | 16:45 |
| mgin | what people? | 16:47 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/mac.html | 16:47 |
| kanzure | i wonder what orion's arm says about computronium anyway, http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4637faafa6437 | 16:57 |
| kanzure | huh, not much | 16:58 |
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| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/3nndso/pitch_an_anthology_film/ | 17:51 |
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| kanzure | wrldpc1: welcome back | 18:14 |
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| maaku | mgin: in school? try clubs | 18:48 |
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| mgin | no | 18:54 |
| catern | i try to pretend to be a grad student at my university | 18:56 |
| catern | undergrads are boring | 18:56 |
| catern | (including me) | 18:56 |
| mgin | you're an undergrad? | 18:56 |
| mgin | what are you studying? | 18:56 |
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| Jawmare | oh hi, this channel looks interesting | 19:04 |
| Jawmare | heard you guys need chemists? | 19:05 |
| catern | mgin: computer science | 19:07 |
| catern | (formerly economics, but the undergrads were too boring) | 19:07 |
| fenn | hello chemist person | 19:07 |
| fenn | Jawmare: what sort of chemistry do you do? | 19:15 |
| Jawmare | still an undergrad | 19:16 |
| fenn | "try to pretend to be a grad student" | 19:16 |
| Jawmare | but most of my interest is in organic/inorganic synthesis | 19:16 |
| Jawmare | and some experimental pchem | 19:17 |
| mgin | is anyone post grad | 19:18 |
| fenn | we have some problems choosing linkers and solvents for DNA synthesis | 19:18 |
| mgin | what is life | 19:18 |
| fenn | i'm afraid most of that context is swapped out at the moment for me | 19:19 |
| catern | fenn: yes? what's wrong with pretending to be a grad student? | 19:21 |
| fenn | oh, i was giving advice | 19:21 |
| catern | mgin: good channel to ask | 19:21 |
| fenn | "don't be boring. sit, stay. good boy." | 19:21 |
| mgin | ? | 19:22 |
| mgin | are there any other channels | 19:22 |
| Jawmare | biochemistry | 19:22 |
| fenn | life is DNA and RNA in a phospholipid bilayer membrane | 19:22 |
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| kanzure | Jawmare: we are doing dna synthesis using phosphoramidite method (or some other better method if necessary) | 19:29 |
| kanzure | Jawmare: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/ | 19:29 |
| kanzure | Jawmare: giant machine can be built, but want to have someone around to help tweak the chemistry and machine to be chemical-compatible with uh.. reality. | 19:30 |
| Jawmare | whats wrong with DMAP? | 19:33 |
| Jawmare | (except it is very toxic) | 19:33 |
| kanzure | dwho? | 19:33 |
| kanzure | .wik 4-Dimethylaminopyridine | 19:33 |
| Jawmare | 3. Capping mixture of acetic anhydride and 1-methylimidazole (or less often, DMAP) as catalysts | 19:33 |
| yoleaux | "4-Dimethylaminopyridine (DMAP) is a derivative of pyridine with the chemical formula (CH3)2NC5H4N. This colourless solid is of interest because it is more than 10,000x more basic than pyridine, owing to the inductive effect of the NMe2 substituent." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-Dimethylaminopyridine | 19:33 |
| kanzure | i think because of simplicity of acquiring anhydride | 19:34 |
| kanzure | but---- dna synthesis is also sorta cargo cult, so if there's better ways, then we should do the better things | 19:34 |
| * fenn bangs coconuts together | 19:34 | |
| Jawmare | other than that, there is not a lot of improvement I can see | 19:40 |
| kanzure | well, improveents aren't necessary- but there are important chemistry details to this that i'm 100% sure that i don't know about | 19:41 |
| kanzure | during design and operation of the machine itself, the expertise of someone more familiar with chemistry than i am would be very useful (my background is actually pokemon training, so what the shit does that say?) | 19:42 |
| fenn | as a potential lab monkey i'm quite concerned about toxicity | 19:42 |
| fenn | there is literally no information on the safety of DNA synthesis byproducts and reagents | 19:42 |
| Jawmare | but machine doesn't die from toxicity | 19:42 |
| Jawmare | msds sheet | 19:42 |
| fenn | no information in the msds | 19:42 |
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| fenn | just says it's not explosive or whatever | 19:42 |
| Jawmare | all the reagents have msds sheet | 19:43 |
| fenn | but will i die of cancer in 3 years? | 19:43 |
| kanzure | plus there's lots of obvious chemistry things that are non-obvious to us... this is why we need an extra person. or two. | 19:43 |
| Jawmare | Did you guys attempt to do the reaction before? | 19:44 |
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| kanzure | nope, although i did purchase an old and busted dna synthesizer (it's missing a single tube)- just for laughs, reverse engineering, etc. | 19:45 |
| Jawmare | or are there people who did the same reaction before and have paper describing how they attempt it? | 19:45 |
| kanzure | https://www.takeitapart.com/guide/94 | 19:45 |
| kanzure | there are some papers but lots of steps are missing | 19:45 |
| kanzure | these are the sorts of papers that assume prior knowledge | 19:45 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/abi391/ | 19:45 |
| Jawmare | I mean the reaction itself, with beaker, rounded bottom etc | 19:46 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/POSaM:%20a%20fast,%20flexible,%20open-source,%20inkjet%20oligonucleotide%20synthesizer%20and%20microarrayer.pdf | 19:46 |
| kanzure | yes here is an old paper describing manual approach, | 19:46 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/Syringe%20method%20for%20stepwise%20chemical%20synthesis%20of%20oligonucleotides.pdf | 19:46 |
| kanzure | really old versions of the reaction chemistry are described here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/dna-synthesis.html | 19:46 |
| Jawmare | and if you need any papers, just fill this : https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1l9G5TDDwNJrm5QDbNPw7vE7jDaAXwPYC5s_olnvzBQs/viewform | 19:47 |
| Jawmare | I have access to most of the journals | 19:47 |
| kanzure | much appreciated, we used to run paperbot which would receive requests over irc for papers and then automatically grab 'em https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot | 19:48 |
| Jawmare | So first thing is to replicate the manual apporach | 19:48 |
| kanzure | (at the moment paperbot is out of commission because of a few bugs) | 19:48 |
| fenn | https://azcobiotech.com/cepa-bulk-dg-ibu-20-8110.html can't find msds now sigh | 19:48 |
| Jawmare | see if you can get the same result doing it by hand | 19:48 |
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| kanzure | yeah i would be willing to pay someone to do manual approach and document everything, including materials, yields, glassware quality, etc. | 19:49 |
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| Jawmare | http://eng.bioneer.com/literatures/msds/Reagents_MSDS/dG%28Ib%29-CE%20%20Phosphoramidite.pdf | 19:50 |
| Jawmare | thats the msds | 19:50 |
| Jawmare | (If it is not availiable on the internet, usually a email to sales will get to the msds, even if you didn't buy it from them) | 19:53 |
| kanzure | i suspect it's the solvents that fenn should be more concerned about :-) | 19:54 |
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| fenn | the 3-methoxypropionitrile sounded concerning | 19:55 |
| Jawmare | http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/MSDS/MSDS/PleaseWaitMSDSPage.do?language=&country=CA&brand=ALDRICH&productNumber=65290&PageToGoToURL=http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/65290?lang=en®ion=CA | 19:55 |
| Jawmare | its on aldrich | 19:55 |
| Jawmare | (the first thing you search for msds is from aldrich | 19:55 |
| fenn | anyway like i said my context is swapped out and it's past bedtime | 19:56 |
| kanzure | seeya | 19:56 |
| fenn | "to the best of our knowledge ... toxicological properties have not been thoroughly investigated." | 19:58 |
| fenn | "do not snort the powder, you crack monkey." | 19:59 |
| kanzure | aren't they supposed to import toxology data from similar compounds' msds? | 19:59 |
| Jawmare | ? | 19:59 |
| kanzure | well it's not like we don't know anything | 19:59 |
| kanzure | usually strongly acidic families of chemicals are going to be strongly acidic | 19:59 |
| fenn | i'm not worried about acidity | 20:00 |
| kanzure | i was just exampling | 20:00 |
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| kanzure | from kahless, through kahless, into kahless we fly | 20:15 |
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| delinquentme | "For all temperatures and salt concentrations employed in present study, base-stacking is the main stabilizing factor in the DNA double helix. A•T pairing is always destabilizing and G•C pairing contributes almost no stabilization. Base-stacking interaction dominates not only in the duplex overall stability but also significantly contributes into the dependence of the duplex stability on its sequence." | 20:22 |
| delinquentme | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1360284/ | 20:22 |
| kanzure | .title | 20:23 |
| yoleaux | Base-stacking and base-pairing contributions into thermal stability of the DNA double helix | 20:23 |
| kanzure | guess i had that coming | 20:23 |
| delinquentme | Im researching the energy involved in the bonds | 20:23 |
| delinquentme | it also just helped me realize that proximity... but also the rotational position | 20:24 |
| delinquentme | matter in this kind of process | 20:24 |
| delinquentme | weh. | 20:24 |
| delinquentme | makes me wonder if i had the DNA free floating in a nanotube ... if it would rotate to meet the other strand when brought into sufficient proximity | 20:25 |
| kanzure | carbon nanotubes are not solid surfaces | 20:26 |
| delinquentme | true | 20:27 |
| delinquentme | but the same question applies to any nanotube | 20:28 |
| Jawmare | delinquentme, you can use computational calculation | 20:33 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, would nano engineer be something useful for this? | 20:34 |
| delinquentme | like Jawmare suggested? ... i suppose I could do these calls by hand but maybe theres a better way | 20:34 |
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| wrldpc1 | ty | 22:21 |
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| wrldpc1 | touched on skdb in a recent podcast | 22:22 |
| wrldpc1 | would love to have you and/or ben on to discuss in greater detail sometime | 22:22 |
| wrldpc1 | https://soundcloud.com/getbusypodcast/5-dangerous-populists-entrepreneurial-scientists-group-openecology-skdb-cloning | 22:23 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Oct 07 00:00:50 2015 | ||
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