| --- Log opened Sun Oct 18 00:00:00 2015 | ||
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| kanzure | the problem with that plan is that the markov generated version of the logs will end up being the only saved copy ever, by osme random accident | 01:56 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | law of data is that data reverts to most hilarious instantiation of said data | 02:03 |
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| kanzure | webgl mechanical clock https://nikital.github.io/clock/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10406165 | 02:04 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/nikital/clock/blob/master/src/mechanics.ts | 02:04 |
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| kanzure | microcosmos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ftVI3NfxU (recalibration) | 02:32 |
| kanzure | anima mundi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yoynLCwrjE (more recalibration) | 02:35 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: what? | 02:45 |
| kanzure | how goes cnc stuff? | 02:46 |
| justanotheruser | if you're talking about my hostmask being visible, you now have my hotels IP :D | 02:47 |
| kanzure | "yes hi, i am looking for justan otterooser. do you have him?" | 02:47 |
| justanotheruser | wat | 02:47 |
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| kanzure | hotel's gonna be non-cooperative | 02:48 |
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| kanzure | whatevs | 02:48 |
| kanzure | cnc stuff? you went? | 02:48 |
| justanotheruser | I've been watching some of this guys video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMhYuXx35Ik | 02:48 |
| kanzure | .title | 02:48 |
| yoleaux | SHOP TIPS #192 Intro. to Gears & Gear Cutting on Bridgeport Mill tubalcain - YouTube | 02:48 |
| justanotheruser | I went? | 02:48 |
| kanzure | it is question | 02:48 |
| kanzure | you were going to trek to the campus machine shop at some point | 02:49 |
| kanzure | 4am is probably not a good time for me attempting communication. i'm probably still dreamng anyway. | 02:50 |
| justanotheruser | ah, no. I haven't yet. I'm not sure they would be willing to show me anything unless I was taking a class, which I am unable to. So I'm probably going to take a class after this semester is over | 02:50 |
| kanzure | pizza > class registration | 02:50 |
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| justanotheruser | Strange, it seems your logs don't include my hostmask-free join. I have no idea what fenns comment meant | 02:58 |
| fenn | i wasn't being sarcastic or anything, genuinely curious how the anonymity is working out in general | 02:58 |
| fenn | i see it as a lifestyle like living on a boat | 02:59 |
| justanotheruser | oh | 03:00 |
| fenn | some people do it for fun or political reasons, some people are being hounded out of their home country and fleeing on a raft | 03:00 |
| fenn | i've been watching a lot of those "tubalcain" videos and i'm not too impressed overall | 03:01 |
| justanotheruser | yeah, justanotheruser is just something I came up with because I didn't care about coming up with some super awesome name | 03:02 |
| fenn | he's definitely not an expert in anything and makes a lot of mistakes in the theory of why things are done | 03:02 |
| justanotheruser | oh really? | 03:02 |
| fenn | every video i want to make a whole bunch of corrections, it's frustrating | 03:02 |
| fenn | anyway it covers a lot of practical knowledge and you can identify common objects found in the shop and what they are for | 03:03 |
| fenn | he teaches many techniques that are utterly worthless if you have CNC | 03:04 |
| justanotheruser | that's interesting because he seems to cite books on the subject often. Are the books wrong? | 03:04 |
| fenn | no the books are usually correct | 03:04 |
| fenn | i have the exact same machinery's handbook edition | 03:06 |
| fenn | "it's a smeller" | 03:06 |
| fenn | he says a lot of things like "this is engineering information and we don't have to think about that at the milling machine" | 03:08 |
| fenn | he never mentions that you only need one hob to cut every gear in a series, instead of a zillion form cutters | 03:18 |
| fenn | and the hob will make better more accurate gears | 03:18 |
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| kanzure | hmph | 06:00 |
| kanzure | yes we should identify some hplusroadmap-sanctioned machining videos | 06:01 |
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| JayDugger | Try https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0EB93E6E02E5CF17 | 06:38 |
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| kanzure | .title | 07:13 |
| yoleaux | industrial - YouTube | 07:13 |
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| kanzure | argh eliezer is the fucking worst; when people ask about transhumanism, people recommend reading HPMOR now instead of stuff like, i dunno, learning lab protocols- https://www.reddit.com/r/Transhuman/comments/3p1gk1/self_study_need_help_developing_curriculum/ | 07:37 |
| mgin | what? | 07:47 |
| mgin | those are two totally different categories | 07:48 |
| kanzure | hm? | 07:48 |
| mgin | fiction is extremely important | 07:49 |
| kanzure | fiction doesn't instruct you how to do things | 07:50 |
| kanzure | his question was how to do things | 07:50 |
| mgin | so what? he's new and doesn't know where to start | 07:50 |
| mgin | recommending him to read fiction for inspiration is a great idea | 07:51 |
| kanzure | HPMOR does not instruct you with where to start learning practical skills | 07:51 |
| mgin | did you read what I just said? | 07:52 |
| kanzure | also, i don't think HPMOR is particularly inspiring | 07:53 |
| mgin | fine but the principle is sound | 07:53 |
| kanzure | pretty stupid that i can't make negative comments about lesswrong without pushback | 07:57 |
| kanzure | "Concise total synthesis of glucosepane" http://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6258/294 | 07:59 |
| kanzure | https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2015/10/building-the-tools-to-work-with-glucosepane-cross-links.php | 07:59 |
| kanzure | "An existing drug administered intravenously reduces the chances of dying from major stroke by 60%, according to results of a phase II trial announced October 9 at the annual Neurocritical Care Society meeting in Scottsdale, Arizona." (cirara) http://scitechdaily.com/new-drug-significantly-reduces-mortality-rate-after-stroke/ | 08:00 |
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| streety | Isn't the benefit of these Q&A sites that it's relatively rare that any one person is able to provide a complete and perfect answer. Collectively though, we get closer. Pushing the idea that biology can be studied without a highly equipped lab is important. A little bit of fiction on the side is no bad thing though | 08:01 |
| kanzure | fiction is fine, but not lesswrong | 08:08 |
| kanzure | let's look at the results of lesswrong... go look at #lesswrong | 08:08 |
| kanzure | the attempts at politically railroading henry markram have been quite strange http://nautil.us/blog/the-big-problem-with-big-science-ventureslike-the-human-brain-project | 08:12 |
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| kanzure | i guess there's $1B at stake so other researchers probably feel the need to team up to yell at grant bodies to get some money of their own | 08:12 |
| kanzure | even if they are just babbling nonsense | 08:12 |
| streety | the glyburide article is interesting. Have to wonder what other conditions it could be useful in | 08:17 |
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| streety | some evidence that it protects the heart as well in various models | 08:18 |
| streety | "After the administration of the K(ATP) channel blocker glibenclamide, median norepinephrine requirements decreased from 13 to 4 microg/min compared with a change from 19 to 7 microg/min after placebo." That is quite a placebo effect. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16484892 | 08:23 |
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| FourFire | "<kanzure> HPMOR does not instruct you with where to start learning practical skills" nope, but it helps spread the idea that there are things worth striving for, and that you'd be more awesome for doing so | 09:25 |
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| maaku | FourFire: be very very careful though. HPMoR is full of wrong examples of how to proceed | 09:45 |
| maaku | In fact HPMoR is probably an anti-example to learn from | 09:49 |
| maaku | Try to be like HPMOR!Harry and you'll end up on #lesswrong | 09:49 |
| mgin | it's practical utility is irrelevant | 09:49 |
| mgin | its* | 09:49 |
| mgin | that's not the point of fiction | 09:49 |
| FourFire | maaku, sure, but it's akin to mythbusters | 09:50 |
| FourFire | not a great example of actually doing things right, but a good propagator of the meme that things can be done right, by anyone | 09:51 |
| FourFire | and that doing things right, in of itself can be enjoyable or cool, or whatever | 09:51 |
| maaku | FourFire: ugh, no. it is precisely not akin to mythbusters | 09:51 |
| FourFire | but yes I'd prefer to see more intro lab procedure, or paywall jailbreaking or something else useful guides | 09:52 |
| maaku | if Mythbusters was like HPMoR, Adam and Jamie would sit around a table and discuss myths until they'd convinced themselves with their own smartness which one was true or not | 09:52 |
| maaku | this is decartian 'rationalism' and there's a 250 year history of this Not. Working. At. All. | 09:55 |
| maaku | actually longer than that, it's the aristotelian tradition | 09:56 |
| maaku | and in the middle ages you ended up with church doctrine, in the 21st century you get #lesswrong | 09:56 |
| mgin | you're an idiot. | 09:56 |
| FourFire | yeah, now that I think of it, HPMoR is a whole lot of applause lights towards nerd culture/scientifically literate people without actually contributing to it at all | 09:56 |
| FourFire | or only minorly | 09:56 |
| * mgin has read HPMOR like >5 times and loves it | 09:57 | |
| FourFire | !HPEV gets to reap the fruits of doing things correctly, with overpowered buffs due to magic + science success aura, and doesn't actually do much actual research or so on, besides knowing a bunch of stuff he's read from before the story's beginning | 09:58 |
| FourFire | That doesn't detract from me having enjoyed reading it of course, just removes it from the list of transhumanist fiction I call "the canon" | 10:00 |
| maaku | Oh sure it's decently good fiction. I like portions of it better than the original HP. | 10:00 |
| mgin | that's the only thing that matters | 10:01 |
| maaku | But turning an aspiring transhumanist to HPMoR or LessWrong is sabotaging. | 10:01 |
| mgin | it's enjoyable. it's a pleasure to read, in and of itself. | 10:02 |
| mgin | that's the whole fucking point of fiction. | 10:02 |
| maaku | Like, idk, sending an aspiring scientist to a scientology recruitment center. | 10:02 |
| FourFire | maaku, you have a very low opinion of LW | 10:03 |
| FourFire | Perhaps I am a cult member... | 10:03 |
| FourFire | perhaps LW community is optimized too much towards improving the lives of the nerdy/weird people who turn up (and spreading the gratuitous identifying memes) rather than furthering transhumanist goals | 10:04 |
| FourFire | but to compare them to Scientology is a bit far.. | 10:05 |
| FourFire | or are you NRx, maaku ? | 10:05 |
| maaku | No idea what NRx even is | 10:05 |
| maaku | I tihnk it is perfectly appropriate comparison. | 10:05 |
| maaku | LW exhibits strong cultish behavior around dogma that undermines its very stated goals. | 10:06 |
| * mgin is friendly with reaction philosophy | 10:06 | |
| maaku | Despite being founded by people who claim to be looking for others to collaborate on a positive singularity, it actually has only accomplished stealing would-be transhumanists away into a dogma of anti-science and revealed truths | 10:08 |
| mgin | that wasn't why it was founded... | 10:09 |
| mgin | besides, how is LW anti-science? I've never heard that before | 10:09 |
| maaku | mgin: should I find quotes from EY on this? | 10:09 |
| mgin | you should. | 10:09 |
| mgin | the center of LW is rationality, not transhumanism or singularitarianism | 10:10 |
| mgin | http://lesswrong.com/about/ | 10:10 |
| maaku | mgin: LW (originally, his posts on overcoming bias) was started by EY to develop 'rationalists' to help on his quest to build friendly AI | 10:11 |
| maaku | is this bit of history lost these days? | 10:11 |
| FourFire | heh | 10:11 |
| mgin | yes and no | 10:11 |
| FourFire | he wanted more "alive" people to talk to without having to stoop down from his high IQ and explain everything in detail to | 10:12 |
| mgin | the latter is more of an ultimate motivation, but the primary motivation of lesswrong is to espouse rationality / raise the sanity waterline and whatnot | 10:12 |
| maaku | FourFire: heh | 10:12 |
| mgin | i've been following Eliezer for more than 10 years | 10:13 |
| maaku | mgin: I'm sorry :( | 10:13 |
| mgin | i read "what is the singularity" and "why work toward the singularity" on singinst.org back in like 2003 | 10:13 |
| FourFire | look into, say this post: http://lesswrong.com/lw/kh/explainers_shoot_high_aim_low/ | 10:14 |
| mgin | also spent some time on the SL4 mailing list ^_^ | 10:14 |
| FourFire | "everyone is too dumb to understand what you're saying | 10:14 |
| FourFire | " | 10:14 |
| maaku | mgin: I once thought I could fix LW as a contrarian. I later learned that to engage itself was a mistake (http://lesswrong.com/lw/m81/) | 10:17 |
| mgin | what's your problem anyway? | 10:17 |
| maaku | If you want to be a "rationalist" then learn what you can about actual, experimental science, and perform it yourself. | 10:17 |
| maaku | Actual lab work will do way more than any philosophical mutterings. | 10:18 |
| mgin | okay? | 10:18 |
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| maaku | ... and I'll stop clogging up the logs here | 10:18 |
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| maaku | mgin: my problem is the dozen or so truly smart people who I have been trying to get to contribute to actually working on transhumanist projects (as they once used to), but are now totally wrapped up in solving FAI philosophy problems | 10:20 |
| mgin | a lot of great stuff has come out of LW and Eliezer especially. it's not secret the crowd of people there are deranged and so on, but that's a separate issue | 10:20 |
| maaku | that, I think, is ontopic for this channel. how do we get more people to actually work on transhumanist projects. | 10:20 |
| mgin | what's an FAI philosophy problem? | 10:20 |
| CaptHindsight | money | 10:20 |
| CaptHindsight | and time | 10:20 |
| mgin | those are my AGI problems haha | 10:21 |
| * mgin needs money and time for AGI R&D | 10:21 | |
| maaku | mgin: go to intelligence.org and click on click on Research | 10:21 |
| mgin | i've seen their stuff | 10:21 |
| maaku | mgin: you mentioned earlier you are working on strong AI -- what's your project? | 10:21 |
| FourFire | "<maaku> mgin: my problem is the dozen or so truly smart people who I have been trying to get to contribute to actually working on transhumanist projects (as they once used to), but are now totally wrapped up in solving FAI philosophy problems" that's worse than my problem | 10:21 |
| CaptHindsight | it's like choosing warp drive as a project | 10:22 |
| FourFire | I've found one, one IRL person who is apparently smarter than me, and they don't seem to be doing Anything... | 10:22 |
| CaptHindsight | on a planet full of monkeys | 10:22 |
| mgin | i'm still uncomfortable talking about it with others | 10:22 |
| mgin | which is annoying | 10:22 |
| maaku | FourFire: you need to change you environment (or your view of people) | 10:22 |
| mgin | i'm debating being less secret about it | 10:22 |
| maaku | mgin: feel free to PM me | 10:22 |
| FourFire | like, getting them into LW would be an improvement, because at least then they might do some EA stuff | 10:22 |
| maaku | I promise to be too distracted by bitcoin to steal your idea | 10:23 |
| FourFire | maaku, yeah I am aware, but where is the right environment (and don't ****ing tell me "The Bay Area" or "Oxford") | 10:23 |
| mgin | "effective altruism", lol. what an oxymoron | 10:24 |
| FourFire | what dimension of my view of people stands out to you as openly fallacious (or harmful) ? | 10:24 |
| maaku | FourFire: I don't mean change locations. maybe find a club or meetup? | 10:24 |
| mgin | maaku: i PM'd you | 10:24 |
| maaku | FourFire: or a project to workon (there's a couple ongoing this channel) | 10:25 |
| FourFire | I tried to make a tregular meetup, but my comparative advantage isn't organising social events, and after four months of trying, I gave up | 10:25 |
| mgin | maaku: i share your disgust of the MIRI research program | 10:25 |
| FourFire | yes, I'm working on a couple of projects, a few short-ish term, one long term | 10:25 |
| mgin | if there's anyone interested and qualified to try to actually build an AGI/FAI i'd be interested in talking to them | 10:26 |
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| FourFire | mgin, you know Houshalter and I hang in an AI research Slack group | 10:26 |
| FourFire | ask Houshalter for an invite | 10:26 |
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| mgin | Houshalter: invite to said AI research slack group? | 10:26 |
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| maaku | Houshalter: same here | 10:37 |
| Houshalter | oh hello | 10:39 |
| Houshalter | i need email adresses | 10:39 |
| Houshalter | pm me | 10:39 |
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| Houshalter | mgin, and maaku | 10:40 |
| Houshalter | maaku, invite sent | 10:42 |
| FourFire | maaku, please, tell me what you think is wrong with my view of people. | 10:49 |
| kanzure | maaku: lately i have been formulating my objection to eliezer's mode of thinking as something along the lines of "well, that was never in the threat model to begin with, so no it doesn't make sense to direct all activity towards that sort of impossible-by-definition threat". | 10:58 |
| kanzure | FourFire: i don't think you should be optimizing for intelligence with people you meet. i think you've got a lot out of me, and you don't even know whether i am intelligent. | 10:59 |
| kanzure | couldn't care less if someone who is highly effective and correct happens to be low intelligence. worse things have happened in the world. | 11:00 |
| FourFire | > i think you've got a lot out of me, | 11:00 |
| FourFire | not sure what you mean by that | 11:00 |
| kanzure | value | 11:00 |
| kanzure | utility points | 11:00 |
| maaku | kanzure: good way of putting it | 11:01 |
| FourFire | if you mean that i respect you to some extent, then yes, that's a function of my perception of your abnormally high apparent agency, plus apparent perspective on what goals are worth reaching | 11:01 |
| kanzure | transfer or increase of utility is not necessarily linked to knowing whether your peers are intelligent, or whethey they are intelligent at all. | 11:01 |
| FourFire | That implies intelligence, to me. | 11:01 |
| FourFire | intelligence is just a multiplier in the formula which outputs "[good] agency" | 11:01 |
| FourFire | if you have high agency then you're likely either highly lucky/well connected and dumb, or intelligent enough to make your own luck and connections. | 11:03 |
| maaku | FourFire: I think you think too much about intelligence, and who has it | 11:03 |
| FourFire | sure, ok | 11:03 |
| kanzure | "LW community is optimized too much towards improving the lives of the nerdy/weird people who turn up" <-- yeah i am not convinced that they are optimized towards this at all. | 11:03 |
| kanzure | maaku: that's a general affliction of that community in general, though! not FourFire's fault. | 11:03 |
| FourFire | I may have disproportionally discussed intelligence in this channel, and overly correlated my own intelligence with my agency, because I feel like I have way too low agency compared to what I think I should have | 11:04 |
| kanzure | i think intelligence is an okay topic in this channel, just be prepared for me and others to shit all over that concept | 11:05 |
| FourFire | sure, I wouldn't bring up a topic if I knew everyone would just agree with me on it, what's to learn from that? | 11:05 |
| FourFire | kanzure, well I'm not really active on the site, mostly in the channel, for the past four years. | 11:06 |
| FourFire | it's a unrepresentative sample of the LW demographic | 11:06 |
| kanzure | how unrepresentative | 11:07 |
| Houshalter | I don't really agree with MIRI's approach to FAI. They focus on really philosophical stuff | 11:08 |
| maaku | FourFire: if by "have too little agency" you mean "not doing stuff", you improve that by doing stuff. | 11:09 |
| FourFire | I'm not sure, but I know average opinion on multiple relevant topics, for example in the surveys' is skewed to some extent from the LW surveytaker's average | 11:09 |
| kanzure | maaku: also, i agree with CaptHindsight's statement about money and time being useful to get people to work on more transhumanist projects. but somewhat of a too general answer. | 11:09 |
| kanzure | FourFire: have you acquired a protein crystallography friend yet? | 11:10 |
| FourFire | maaku, yes, I am aware, I am lazy, but also my brain seems to not be very well suited for not being lazy, moreso than I experience other people's agency | 11:10 |
| FourFire | kanzure, noop | 11:10 |
| mgin | why do you keep saying "agency" over and over again | 11:11 |
| FourFire | but then I don't really hang around the university, or scout out my workplace for stuff, I'm prone to fall into a subsistence living routine :/ | 11:11 |
| kanzure | also, why do people keep using protein ribbon diagrams? how do they decide what gets to be the "real" backbone. | 11:11 |
| FourFire | I bet there's at least one company at my workplace which does that | 11:12 |
| FourFire | I have no idea | 11:12 |
| FourFire | something about observed structural stability is my best guess | 11:12 |
| kanzure | originally i tried not to look at ribbon diagrams because all of that empty space in the diagram seemed sort of pointless | 11:13 |
| kanzure | i know that most molecules are empty space, but i still need to see the actual force fields | 11:13 |
| kanzure | (much rather prefer electrostatic potential diagrams) | 11:14 |
| CaptHindsight | kanzure: well I was just posting a short comment, not putting on a pageant :) | 11:14 |
| kanzure | probably i'll make a lurker survey soon to get some Actual Data on the problem | 11:16 |
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| maaku | FourFire: excuses. laziness is a solveable problem | 11:49 |
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| maaku | Houshalter: any reason for slack instead of here or ##AGI? | 11:54 |
| Houshalter | well the existing AGI communities on IRC are absolutely awful. a bunch of crazy people and trolls have taken over | 11:55 |
| maaku | so make a new IRC channel | 11:55 |
| FourFire | maaku, yes, I know ... | 11:55 |
| chris_99 | #ai was pretty retarded last time i was in there heh | 11:55 |
| Houshalter | it still is. don't go there | 11:56 |
| FourFire | slack has a higher barrier to entry as someone has to be interested enough to give up a real email address | 11:56 |
| Houshalter | i didn't choose slack though, i'm not the founder. I think Nick B did, and he's gone now | 11:56 |
| FourFire | yeah. | 11:56 |
| maaku | well as a closed system I'm unlikey to initiate a conversation there | 11:56 |
| Houshalter | but it has worked out. the quality of discussion is a bit higher than what I expect on IRC. that might just be the members though | 11:56 |
| Houshalter | also you would be surprised how many people don't know how to use or just won't use IRC | 11:57 |
| maaku | It's not accessibility concerns over slack | 11:57 |
| maaku | It's the closed ecosystem | 11:58 |
| Houshalter | the biggest advantage by far is that it archives the discussion. I don't have to leave a client open 24/7. I can just open it up in the morning and see wht people talked about last night | 11:58 |
| Houshalter | i'm very glad we didn't create an IRC channel for that reason | 11:58 |
| maaku | Houshalter: there's these things called irc bouncers and log bots. you should use them | 11:59 |
| Houshalter | i have no idea how to set that up and i doubt most people know they exist. slack just does it automatically. it's great | 11:59 |
| maaku | Houshalter: are you only on IRC when your computer is online? | 12:00 |
| maaku | I can make you an account on my quassel server if you like | 12:02 |
| Houshalter | yes | 12:03 |
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| Houshalter | i'm slowly growing to hate my IRC client too | 12:04 |
| justanotheruser | "xchat 2.8.6-2 Windows Vista" | 12:05 |
| justanotheruser | o_O | 12:05 |
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| Houshalter | what? | 12:09 |
| Houshalter | who are you | 12:09 |
| Houshalter | how do you know these things | 12:09 |
| maaku | Houshalter: /whois Houshalter | 12:09 |
| justanotheruser | welcome to irc | 12:10 |
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| Houshalter | I don't see any information about my client | 12:10 |
| justanotheruser | Houshalter: /ctcp justanotheruser version | 12:12 |
| maaku | Houshalter: PM | 12:13 |
| Houshalter | "VERSION Internet Explorer Webchat Plugin 2.0.3 - Microsoft Windows 2000" O_o | 12:13 |
| chris_99 | haha, is that fake | 12:14 |
| justanotheruser | ? | 12:14 |
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| Houshalter | that's justanotheruser's ctcp | 12:19 |
| justanotheruser | Houshalter: the ctcp version response is just whatever your client decides to respond with | 12:19 |
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| QuadIngi | justanotherusr, maaku it is my intention to setup a bouncer, and indeed become more proficient in techical things of that sort, such as writing a personal wiki, and so on, but I never seem to get around to it | 12:39 |
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| FourFire | You could call this laziness | 12:39 |
| FourFire | but it's not like I'm idle, I'm active in my daily work routines, and forced social interaction and so on, I just don't seem to take the initiative to make significant progress on anything which isn't continuing the status quo. | 12:40 |
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| mgin | "forced social interaction" lol | 12:52 |
| kanzure | maaku: i suspect that the reason why slack has caught on at all is the one-click onboarding.. any additional step to get to a chatroom is friction that eliminates users. | 13:26 |
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| kanzure | bloop | 14:05 |
| kanzure | ugh sensorica is spamming the diybio mailing list now | 14:08 |
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| justanotherusr | SENSORICA: an open, decentralized and self-organizing value network, designing, producing, and distributing sensing and sensemaking solutions. | 14:17 |
| kanzure | they have been spamming the openmanufacturing mailing list for years | 14:17 |
| chris_99 | some of the projects look pretty cool though | 14:17 |
| kanzure | at one point i wanted to ban the guy, but then someone said something like "oh this isn't crap" so i haven't looked since 2009 | 14:17 |
| kanzure | in retrospect my strategy is probably suboptimal | 14:17 |
| kanzure | considering that was around the time i applied the same logic to bitcoin | 14:18 |
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| kanzure | reason@fightaging.org commenting about bioviva https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10409842 | 14:42 |
| mgin | dude | 15:00 |
| mgin | why the fuck don't we just crowd fund clinical trials | 15:01 |
| mgin | and they just release their products as supplements | 15:01 |
| mgin | the cycle could go from decades to months | 15:01 |
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| mgin | why the fuck is that not happening | 15:01 |
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| FourFire | mgin, because economic incentive | 15:05 |
| mgin | not sure about this particular case | 15:06 |
| kanzure | clinical trials are too expensive | 15:06 |
| kanzure | crowdfunding isn't going to raise $100M/week for $potential_cure_x- at that scale you need government intervention or something | 15:06 |
| mgin | why? manufacture the drugs and give em to people | 15:07 |
| mgin | why does that cost money | 15:07 |
| kanzure | the answer to that question is the fda | 15:07 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/fda | 15:07 |
| mgin | like what if i wanted to run a trial of nervonic acid | 15:07 |
| mgin | not sure why nobody has tried this yet | 15:07 |
| mgin | pay the cost to synthesize the stuff, and recruit some volunteers | 15:08 |
| kanzure | there's also concerns about self-reporting errors | 15:08 |
| kanzure | lies can be identified using statistics as long as most of your data is non-lie but w/e | 15:08 |
| mgin | well in the case of the nervonic acid trial we would give them objective tests of cognition, so it's controlled | 15:09 |
| kanzure | "we"- the people you are paying to conduct the trial? | 15:09 |
| kanzure | or do you mean the participants? | 15:09 |
| mgin | seriously, does anyone know where i could get some? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervonic_acid | 15:10 |
| kanzure | today in #lesswrong they all thought peer review happened before publication and conduction of an experiment >:-( | 15:11 |
| mgin | how hard is it to source some of this stuff, honestly?> | 15:12 |
| mgin | i could recruit some volunteers and run a trial myself | 15:12 |
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| FourFire | kanzure, generalizing a bit there | 15:47 |
| FourFire | maybe three people agreed on that | 15:47 |
| FourFire | in a channel of ~280, of which maybe 50 are regularly active | 15:48 |
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| atomical | hi | 15:58 |
| delinquentme | hi atomical | 15:59 |
| delinquentme | "If the gap is small enough (<1 nm), electrons can cross the gap via quantum tunneling. " | 15:59 |
| delinquentme | how can we image things of sizes > 1nm if this is the case? | 15:59 |
| atomical | what if there is no gene currently in the body to prevent aging and we have to design our own gene? wouldn't the body repair itself if it could? | 15:59 |
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| delinquentme | atomical, it kinda does | 16:12 |
| delinquentme | telomerase being one of these molecules | 16:12 |
| delinquentme | theres a number of ways the body repairs itself | 16:13 |
| atomical | but it doesn't repair the sort of oxidative damage associated with aging | 16:13 |
| delinquentme | it does | 16:13 |
| delinquentme | oxidative damage is a pretty wide term though | 16:13 |
| delinquentme | "Cells are known to eliminate three types of damage to their DNA by chemically reversing it." | 16:15 |
| delinquentme | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_repair#DNA_repair_mechanisms | 16:15 |
| kanzure | "In the last chapter, Camus outlines the legend of Sisyphus who defied the gods and put Death in chains so that no human needed to die. When Death was eventually liberated and it came time for Sisyphus himself to die, he concocted a deceit which let him escape from the underworld. Finally captured, the gods decided on his punishment for all eternity. He would have to push a rock up a mountain; upon reaching the top, the rock would roll ... | 16:26 |
| kanzure | ... down again, leaving Sisyphus to start over. Camus sees Sisyphus as the absurd hero who lives life to the full, hates death, and is condemned to a meaningless task, who must be imagined happy." | 16:26 |
| kanzure | atomical: genetics of anti-aging is probably going to involve many different genes and alleles | 16:27 |
| kanzure | and is exceedingly unlikely to involve only one gene | 16:27 |
| atomical | ah | 16:27 |
| kanzure | here is one perspective on anti-aging: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/aging_roadmap.txt | 16:27 |
| atomical | seems kind of weird that Liz Parrish received the follistatin gene | 16:28 |
| kanzure | she should have picked gfp or some other simple reporter gene | 16:28 |
| kanzure | i don't think follistatin is an ideal target | 16:28 |
| kanzure | you need to pick something that is trivial to detect | 16:28 |
| atomical | so is she going to get ripped now? | 16:28 |
| kanzure | well, if she used a gfp reporter approach, she would be able to look at her blood (or something) to determine if gfp is being expressed. then she could make some reasonable guesses as to whether follistatin is being expressed. | 16:29 |
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| kanzure | (actually, there might be a blood test for follistatin?) | 16:29 |
| kanzure | anyway, i think she could have picked better targets | 16:29 |
| yashgaroth | immunogenicity of gfp | 16:30 |
| kanzure | immune system hates gfp? | 16:30 |
| yashgaroth | it's not human so yeah | 16:31 |
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| kanzure | can you think of a better test case than follistatin? | 16:31 |
| yashgaroth | sure, but not one that'll be as potentially effective as an anti-aging protein | 16:33 |
| kanzure | why would an anti-aging protein be useful here? you wont see effects for a long, long time. | 16:33 |
| kanzure | how about a certain toxin resistance gene, and then she can try to kill herself with a toxin. | 16:33 |
| yashgaroth | well, it has muscle-growth effects as well | 16:33 |
| atomical | http://www.ergo-log.com/follistatin.html | 16:33 |
| kanzure | (although personally i would prefer the simplicity of fluorescence......) | 16:33 |
| atomical | are bodybuilders already lining up for this? | 16:34 |
| atomical | i wonder if tour de france riders have done this | 16:34 |
| yashgaroth | not while it still costs 6 figures to produce enough AAV | 16:34 |
| kanzure | bodybuilders are open to trying new things but the logistics of selling them the goods are kinda complex (because you'll get shutdown if you have shitty opsec) | 16:34 |
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| yashgaroth | steroids are one thing since they're practically OTC in other countries, and have some legal routes in the US for "low testosterone", but biopharmaceuticals and especially viral vectors don't benefit from either | 16:35 |
| yashgaroth | also you can still quantify circulating follistatin, though most of it's cell-surface bound, depending on the isoform...still, if she had blood work and/or data from beforehand you can check whether her levels have increased | 16:37 |
| atomical | opsec? | 16:37 |
| kanzure | operational security-- don't get busted | 16:37 |
| atomical | follistatin gene therapy would be the next level up from taking a research chemical | 16:38 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: if i was in her shoes i wouldn't be particularly happy with just "well the levels increased". physial evidence, like fluoresence, is much better. | 16:38 |
| atomical | and research chemicals are popular among the PEDs crowd | 16:38 |
| kanzure | PEDs? | 16:38 |
| kanzure | *physical | 16:38 |
| yashgaroth | performance enhancing drugs I assume | 16:38 |
| kanzure | and AAV wouldn't count as a "research chemical" because...? | 16:39 |
| kanzure | virus too molecular, not enough chemicalz!!11one | 16:39 |
| atomical | yeah, performance enhancing drugs | 16:39 |
| atomical | for performance enhancing research chemicals i mean sarms, gw501516, sr9009, etc. | 16:40 |
| kanzure | .wik sr9009 | 16:40 |
| yoleaux | "SR9009 is a research drug that was developed by Professor Thomas Burris of the Scripps Research Institute as an agonist of Rev-ErbA (i.e., increases the constitutive repression of genes regulated by Rev-ErbA) with a half-maximum inhibitory concentration (IC50) = 670 nM for Rev-ErbAα and IC50 = 800 nM for Rev-ErbAβ." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR9009 | 16:40 |
| kanzure | .wik gw501516 | 16:40 |
| yoleaux | "GW501516 (also known as GW-501,516, GW1516, GSK-516 and on the black market as Endurobol) is a PPARδ receptor agonist that was invented in a collaboration between Ligand Pharmaceuticals and GlaxoSmithKline in the 1990s, was entered into clinical development as a drug candidate for metabolic diseases and cardiovascular diseases, and was …" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW501516 | 16:40 |
| yashgaroth | next step up from research chemicals would be recombinant protein therapy with e.g. follistatin, and then a much larger step from there is gene therapy | 16:41 |
| atomical | recombinant protein therapy? so injecting something? | 16:42 |
| yashgaroth | yes, grow follistatin or another myostatin inhibitor in cell culture, then purify it, then shoot it into yourself | 16:42 |
| atomical | how much would you guess the follistatin therapy cost? | 16:43 |
| atomical | 10-20k? | 16:43 |
| atomical | i can't imagine it would cost more than chemical synthesis | 16:43 |
| atomical | the article i read quoted a professor as saying his students could do it in two days | 16:43 |
| yashgaroth | well, it depends on swole you wanna get brah; and it's much more expensive than chemical synthesis | 16:43 |
| yashgaroth | growing cells isn't easy, purifying a protein from those cells isn't easy | 16:44 |
| atomical | women my age aren't into swole brah | 16:44 |
| atomical | they into babies and six figures | 16:44 |
| atomical | there's no way to revert what Liz Parrish did, right? | 16:45 |
| atomical | she's essentially stuck with whatever changes she made for the rest of her life? | 16:45 |
| kanzure | er, most people aren't into women their own age | 16:46 |
| yashgaroth | expression should fade over time, though that's not reliable or quick | 16:46 |
| atomical | if the telomerase gene therapy worked would she start to look younger? | 16:47 |
| yashgaroth | I have professional disagreements with her science team about the usefulness of telomerase, but probably no | 16:48 |
| kanzure | you'll have to ask all the mice that telomerase extension was tested on- did their mates look younger? y/n | 16:49 |
| yashgaroth | depends on which serotype of AAV she used, i.e. what tissues it targets, and whether the increase in youthfulness is offset by supercancer | 16:50 |
| kanzure | and then there's makeup, plastic surgery, photoshop, etc. which can be used to look more youthful anyway | 16:50 |
| atomical | that's the worry, right? | 16:50 |
| atomical | but she might get cancer in spite of the treatment | 16:50 |
| kanzure | there's no cure for cancer | 16:50 |
| atomical | no one would ever know because she's the only patient | 16:50 |
| kanzure | even kiddos get cancer | 16:51 |
| atomical | i hear death is pretty good at killing cancer | 16:51 |
| kanzure | that's why you have child leukemia wards | 16:51 |
| kanzure | yes, that's what chemotherapy is | 16:51 |
| atomical | kanzure is your phonetic spelling for cancer? | 16:53 |
| kanzure | nah | 16:54 |
| atomical | how is Liz Parrish going to convince people that telomerase therapy actually did something? | 16:55 |
| atomical | live until 140 and say I told you so? | 16:55 |
| kanzure | that wasn't her goal | 16:56 |
| atomical | her company is for profit, right? | 16:56 |
| kanzure | her goal was to show that gene therapy is safe and not going to insta kill you | 16:56 |
| atomical | there are worse things than insta death | 16:56 |
| yashgaroth | also if she sees an increase in lean muscle mass, presumably from the follistatin; but mostly yeah it's to show that a massive dose of AAV won't fuck you up | 16:59 |
| atomical | why even bother | 17:01 |
| atomical | i care about efficacy | 17:01 |
| atomical | if you're selling snake oil efficacy doesn't matter | 17:02 |
| yashgaroth | people can review the current research literature on their own, and determine whether the approach has merit...or we can wait a hundred years for human life extension trials to wrap up | 17:04 |
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| atomical | well, i'd go for it | 17:30 |
| atomical | just because i'm bored | 17:30 |
| fenn | lol superkanzure offsets youthfulness | 17:34 |
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| atomical | i don't know, couldn't all that sympathy from cancer give you some anti-aging benefit as well? | 17:52 |
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| kanzure | google scholar doesn't have a paper that was published 3 days ago :-/ | 19:36 |
| kanzure | "Global Brain Dynamics Embed the Motor Command Sequence of Caenorhabditis elegans" http://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(15)01196-4 | 19:36 |
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| kanzure | updates to list of biology hackerspaces https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DMN7Fgj7t9-KN7pANrySD3en0CAvvHmGx1kh48qjE5E/edit#gid=1392299940 | 20:29 |
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| fenn | reversible long-term male contraception project: http://www.parsemusfoundation.org/projects/vasalgel/ | 21:16 |
| kanzure | why not just sperm banking and vasectomies for everyone? | 21:25 |
| kanzure | or stem cell banking | 21:25 |
| fenn | expensive and unreliable | 21:25 |
| fenn | this was developed in india btw | 21:26 |
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| kanzure | perhaps some sort of abortion ray gun | 21:30 |
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| maaku | kanzure: this is a reversible vsectomy | 21:42 |
| maaku | it's actually pretty cool, albeit primitive tech | 21:42 |
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| fenn | 20 minutes in and i can already tell the movie version of "the martian" is going to be better than the book | 23:16 |
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| maaku | it was a surprisingly good movie | 23:19 |
| maaku | i didn't read the book though | 23:19 |
| Stskeeps | book's better (IMHO), more oh fuck moments | 23:20 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:20 |
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| nmz787 | I just cried to this: http://video.pbs.org/video/1484202325/ | 23:35 |
| nmz787 | .title | 23:35 |
| yoleaux | Video: The Spirit of Tek | Watch Oregon Experience Online | PBS Video | 23:35 |
| nmz787 | "In 1945 four young entrepreneurs decided to start an electronics company in Portland, Oregon. The company was Tektronix. This program explores the people and philosophy that established Tektronix as Oregon's first high-tech industry leader." | 23:36 |
| --- Log closed Mon Oct 19 00:00:01 2015 | ||
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