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| fenn | http://mathbabe.org/2015/10/20/guest-post-dirty-rant-about-the-human-brain-project/ | 03:07 |
|---|---|---|
| Viper168 | the human brian project | 03:08 |
| Viper168 | what's so special about him | 03:08 |
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| fenn | "I think some people are upset because of the scale of money being diverted to this one project. Let’s compare with federal grants awarded this year in all disciplines at Berkeley and MIT. This one project will get more than all of those put together. | 03:56 |
| mosasaur | http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-basic-science-1445613954 | 04:06 |
| fenn | note the type of bias the wall street journal would be expected to have | 04:07 |
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| mosasaur | dam, I was trying turn in into a strawman for people not needing communities | 04:12 |
| mosasaur | it | 04:12 |
| fenn | this article is entirely about technology, not science | 04:13 |
| mosasaur | at some point, with science being used to enable inequality for so long, one starts to wonder if it is still a good boy that was just led onto the wrong path | 04:15 |
| fenn | what are you even talking about | 04:15 |
| mosasaur | things like this: https://i.reddit.com/r/TrueAskReddit/comments/3prcik/why_do_americans_have_a_negative_attitude_towards/cw9afjr | 04:16 |
| fenn | use your words | 04:16 |
| mosasaur | it's already possibly a reaction to some discussion I participated in on ##philosophy, but OK | 04:17 |
| mosasaur | what we see here is people defending math, and physics, when most people have been taught it the wrong way | 04:18 |
| fenn | i don't disagree, but that's hardly "science is used to enable inequality" | 04:19 |
| fenn | it's just bad education, and bad epistemics in the field educational science, and widespread bad policy by education bureaucrats | 04:20 |
| mosasaur | how can we discern pure math, which is supposed to be good, from the whole corrupt system it is taught in? | 04:20 |
| fenn | you're asking for too much | 04:21 |
| mosasaur | it goes down to the whole cryptic notation system that is designed to keep people from grasping the meaning | 04:21 |
| fenn | if we had such a machine it would know all the answers to all of the problems | 04:21 |
| mosasaur | but is math notation? | 04:21 |
| fenn | mosasaur do you think chinese is designed to keep people from grasping the meaning? | 04:22 |
| fenn | i don't like math notation either, but your assertion that it's all part of a vast conspiracy is lame | 04:25 |
| mosasaur | sure, it happens with natural languages too | 04:25 |
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| mosasaur | fenn: you're kind of assuming it was on purpose | 04:27 |
| fenn | that's what it means when you say "used" | 04:27 |
| mosasaur | I mean are predators evil? I think not, but we still try to prevent them from killing us | 04:28 |
| fenn | if you unpack that metaphor you'll find some problems | 04:28 |
| mosasaur | I think a certain mindset has co evolved with the way math and physics are taught and understood | 04:29 |
| mosasaur | I unpack it in the same way that I don't think billionaires are evil, yet they stifle progress, or abuse the vast amounts of money they have acquired to steer humanity in the wrong direction | 04:31 |
| fenn | please explain then | 04:32 |
| mosasaur | but this presupposes something also present in math, a kind of abstracting away from reality | 04:32 |
| mosasaur | like people, once they earned the money, now own it to do whatever they want | 04:32 |
| mosasaur | but obviously this fails on a global scale | 04:33 |
| mosasaur | there is also the "grand man" ideology that tries to reduce all progress to the efforts of one man with an idead | 04:34 |
| fenn | so is the parallel you're trying to make that "academics, once they earn the academic cred, now do whatever they want"? | 04:34 |
| mosasaur | sure, once you have tenure, you are relatively safe | 04:35 |
| fenn | (as long as you don't make any politically inconvenient statements) | 04:36 |
| mosasaur | but my point is about the ideas behind it, that are taken from math and physics | 04:36 |
| mosasaur | like everything can be reduced to a single cause | 04:36 |
| fenn | i think that is just a human cognitive bias, prevalent in every field | 04:37 |
| drethelin | notation is used to facilitate understaning not block it | 04:37 |
| drethelin | it's an exocortex | 04:37 |
| drethelin | when you write down a novel, the goal is not to make spoken words harder to understand | 04:37 |
| drethelin | even though humans can speak without knowing how to read and write | 04:37 |
| mosasaur | ideas that are not attributed to a specific person "owning" that idea, are plagiarism | 04:37 |
| drethelin | it's for the book to act as an external memory store | 04:37 |
| fenn | mosasaur without a rigorous system of attribution we end up falling prey to people like bre pettis of makerbot, or quentin tarantino | 04:39 |
| mosasaur | drethelin: a memory store, as we currently define it, uses a single place for a single thing, but that is not how our brains work | 04:39 |
| fenn | where only the popularizers of an idea are remembered, and the factors that go into actual invention or creativity are forgotten | 04:39 |
| mosasaur | popularization depends on memetic propagation, but that requires things different from the way the knowledge is created | 04:41 |
| fenn | yeah so when you fund only science popularizers instead of scientists, what happens? | 04:42 |
| drethelin | neil tyson | 04:44 |
| mosasaur | things like me only recently finding out why cos2x + sin2x = 1 | 04:44 |
| fenn | er, i think that's unrelated | 04:45 |
| mosasaur | things like I have been thinking I was bad at math for a long time | 04:45 |
| fenn | in your cast, math popularizers would actually be helpful | 04:46 |
| fenn | case* | 04:46 |
| mosasaur | it's very related to the competitive way of hiding how things are done and then claim you're smart, but we find that everywhere in society | 04:47 |
| fenn | i don't know any scientists like that | 04:47 |
| mosasaur | so all scientist you know publish their data? | 04:48 |
| mosasaur | probably a very selective set of scientists | 04:48 |
| fenn | it's not everyone's job to teach you everything, and nothing would get done if all the scientsts switched to mainstream education | 04:48 |
| fenn | anyway, yes, scientists i know publish their data | 04:49 |
| fenn | the problems are usually things like, they publish in closed journals, or don't know how to use version control, or have bad documentation | 04:49 |
| mosasaur | I know things are touchy when you're talking all or nothing | 04:50 |
| fenn | i don't consider pharmaceutical researchers to be scientists | 04:51 |
| fenn | like, drug development search pipeline engineers | 04:51 |
| fenn | but this is just the usual "oh noes, the ambiguity of words" philosophy discussion all over again | 04:52 |
| mosasaur | right, and this is a doing environment | 04:52 |
| fenn | it's just not a useful or enlightening conversation to have again, for me | 04:53 |
| mosasaur | I agree, I don't know what to do about it either | 04:53 |
| fenn | one strategy is to try to make a good argument in favor of what the other person is trying to say | 04:54 |
| fenn | that way instead of nit-picking at edge cases you're making bold statements about what you actually wanted to talk about | 04:55 |
| mosasaur | I thought that wall street link was up your alley, even though it was motivated thinking, and I know this even without knowing what this wall street journalist's bias is | 04:57 |
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| mosasaur | but I liked it still | 04:58 |
| mosasaur | I think we need less competition, more cooperation, but that points to science, and science has been captured and turned into an instrument of inequality | 04:59 |
| fenn | yes i have had similar thoughts about a technological superorganism like the gaia hypothesis | 04:59 |
| fenn | but their recommendation "cancel all public science because business is more profitable" is completely missing the point | 05:00 |
| mosasaur | gaia is a meme, memes exist | 05:00 |
| fenn | we don't have a word for what i'm talking about, at least i don't know of any | 05:01 |
| fenn | or name | 05:02 |
| fenn | i'd rather not dredge up yet another greek myth | 05:02 |
| fenn | mosasaur you should talk to scientists | 05:03 |
| fenn | you seem to have this idea about people that doesn't match up with my experience | 05:04 |
| mosasaur | maybe technium is your word? although I don't know about this blog: http://kk.org/thetechnium/ | 05:04 |
| fenn | no, that's just talking about the raw propagation of technology | 05:05 |
| mosasaur | great, I can't see my idea about people, so tell me | 05:05 |
| fenn | i mean the sum of all interactions of thinking humans using technologically mediated communication and technologically enhanced thought to further develop technology in a recursive process | 05:06 |
| fenn | holy crap i think i made the predecessor to this steering wheel thingy http://kk.org/thetechnium/files/2015/03/B8xzpVJIgAAdk7L.jpg | 05:07 |
| fenn | ah nevermind that is an actual F1 wheel | 05:11 |
| fenn | something like an uncle | 05:13 |
| fenn | mosasaur i'm not going to try to put words into your mouth when you can't even bother to explain your own ideas | 05:14 |
| mosasaur | wait, I said nothing? | 05:14 |
| fenn | you made some vague metaphorical assertions about inequality and billionaires and the poor state of math education | 05:18 |
| fenn | "On the chance that desirable futures ARE possible, we need to imagine them." i couldn't agree more with kevin kelly on this point | 05:19 |
| mosasaur | it's because everyone follows the mammon but not me. I'm not extra ethical or something, my path just prevented me | 05:20 |
| kanzure | mathematical notation should be subjected to scientific experimentation to find notations that people can learn the quickest, versus those that seem to be the most useful, etc. | 05:20 |
| fenn | i don't think more notation is required at this point | 05:20 |
| fenn | just better interfaces to simulations so that people can anchor their intuitions better | 05:21 |
| kanzure | whatever; all of that should be tested instead of assuming that the first notation that phd mathematician candidates happen to use is the one that is ideal for various purposes. | 05:22 |
| fenn | agreed | 05:22 |
| fenn | educational science is a shit show | 05:22 |
| fenn | worse than nutrition even | 05:22 |
| mosasaur | I'm in favor of automatized proof checkers. What language they're in is the next battle, but then we'd at least be a whole level up. | 05:23 |
| kanzure | shouldn't we have something approximating an "actual evidence of a learning curve for <subject x>" at this point? | 05:23 |
| fenn | they exist, it's called type theory (or so i'm told) | 05:23 |
| fenn | coq is one implementation off the top of my head | 05:23 |
| kanzure | microsoft recently released their z3 theorem prover | 05:23 |
| kanzure | open-sourced i mean | 05:23 |
| fenn | but i'd like to point out that type theory is 9 zillion levels of meta above what actual engineers and scientists use to do science and build things | 05:24 |
| kanzure | mosasaur: i think you have been hanging out with the wrong people and the wrong ideas. you need some serious recalibration :-). | 05:24 |
| kanzure | mosasaur: you sound like a redditor that can't get over dawkin's love of memes. but the utility of knowing about memes is actually quite low.... | 05:25 |
| kanzure | not zero, but low | 05:25 |
| mosasaur | I never fit in anywhere, but sometimes I can bring ideas from one community to another | 05:27 |
| kanzure | "A survey of rollback-recovery protocols in message-passing systems" http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.52.4299&rep=rep1&type=pdf | 05:27 |
| kanzure | show me a novel idea | 05:27 |
| mosasaur | maybe I can fix that python bot if it's still broken | 05:29 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot | 05:31 |
| kanzure | knock yourself out | 05:31 |
| kanzure | 04:55 < fenn> that way instead of nit-picking at edge cases you're making bold statements about what you actually wanted to talk about | 05:34 |
| kanzure | :o | 05:34 |
| mosasaur | I meant the one reacting to .py commands. Or is that the same? | 05:34 |
| kanzure | yoleaux is dpk's bot, he will fix that eventually, but paperbot is much higher priority for hplusroadmappers :-) | 05:35 |
| mosasaur | OK | 05:36 |
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| kanzure | fenn: for your amusement http://www.seasteading.org/architectural-design-contest/metabolic-city/ | 07:26 |
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| fenn | did i mention i hate architects | 07:29 |
| kanzure | not lately | 07:29 |
| fenn | needs more gondolas | 07:30 |
| kanzure | so does this just sink when it's storming? | 07:31 |
| fenn | yes because while they copied the breakwater ring layout, they didn't include a breakwater | 07:32 |
| kanzure | can't find breakwater ring link | 07:33 |
| fenn | some example pictures http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/reply/floating-breakwater-ring-seastead/ | 07:34 |
| kanzure | i think i still prefer your plans | 07:34 |
| fenn | hmm these are not really what i meant | 07:34 |
| kanzure | quick, write it down before it disappears from this timeline | 07:36 |
| kanzure | er, i mean, quick write it down and hash it, because hashing.... | 07:37 |
| FourFire | wtf "wave protection" | 07:39 |
| FourFire | as if drawing some squiggles makes up for bad design. | 07:39 |
| kanzure | what's the largest submersible semi-mobile habitat we could put 10 or 20 meters under the waterline? | 07:39 |
| fenn | hmm i guess eric has totally embraced PSP's now so none of the new fancy graphics illustrations include a breakwater ring: http://tmp2.wikia.com/wiki/Aquarius | 07:40 |
| fenn | i just came across this page http://imulead.com/tolimared/concretesubmarine/picturegallery/ | 07:42 |
| mosasaur | if they can make buildings invisible to earthquakes, why not make floating cities invisible to waves? | 07:44 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqLr0k6g3BA | 07:44 |
| yoleaux | submarine yacht, inside - YouTube | 07:44 |
| kanzure | floating cities just don't seem like a good idea at all | 07:44 |
| fenn | it's too early to say | 07:45 |
| kanzure | that's surface-dweller talk | 07:45 |
| fenn | i'm mostly annoyed at clueless "design" people who have no idea what the actual challenges are | 07:45 |
| kanzure | "i prefer to live perpendicular to flat surfaces, shitlord!" | 07:45 |
| kanzure | can't quite get this right, oops | 07:46 |
| fenn | we prefer the term inclusional orthogonality | 07:46 |
| kanzure | i want submersible aircraft hangars and stuff | 07:47 |
| fenn | as far as "biggest" the nuclear subs are pretty damn big already | 07:49 |
| fenn | you'd have to provide really good reasons for wanting bigger | 07:49 |
| kanzure | other submarine manufacture? | 07:50 |
| fenn | how does a GSV make a GSV | 07:50 |
| fenn | another topic eric hunting liked to ramble about | 07:50 |
| kanzure | gsv=? | 07:50 |
| fenn | general systems vehicle | 07:50 |
| kanzure | "put humans in the loop" PROBLEM SOLVED, MORTAL | 07:51 |
| fenn | no it's a topological problem | 07:51 |
| fenn | how do you get a door through a door of the same size | 07:51 |
| fenn | the obvious answer is "don't use a circular door" | 07:52 |
| kanzure | probably modular construction blocks, followed by internal welding and then removing any jigs or superfluous structural stuff from the initial linking | 07:52 |
| fenn | but things underwater want to be circular because physics | 07:52 |
| kanzure | also you could deploy temporary surface structures | 07:53 |
| kanzure | but not sure how that helps with manufacturing anything | 07:53 |
| fenn | that's surface dweller talk, bah! | 07:53 |
| fenn | also, this came up in the context of orbital structures not underwater | 07:53 |
| kanzure | breakwater rings? | 07:54 |
| fenn | no, the how to build an airlock that can transport a bigger airlock through it | 07:54 |
| kanzure | inflatable airlocks, problem solved | 07:55 |
| fenn | ah. | 07:55 |
| kanzure | do you really need the airlock to be finished when it exits the first airlock? | 07:55 |
| fenn | i don't know | 07:55 |
| kanzure | is this one of those shitty zen master puzzles that everyone hates | 07:56 |
| fenn | no | 07:56 |
| fenn | have you really not read any of the iain banks culture novels? | 07:58 |
| kanzure | does that really surprise you | 07:58 |
| kanzure | most scifi is just endless pages of disappointment for me | 08:00 |
| kanzure | why should i want to subject myself to that? | 08:00 |
| fenn | because it's better than reddit or whatever crap you're currently wasting time on | 08:00 |
| fenn | iirc the first scene in the first book is a floating city getting destroyed by a giant wave | 08:02 |
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| kanzure | yeah i don' treally know how to use downtime productively | 08:03 |
| kanzure | but constant disappointment is not fun | 08:03 |
| mosasaur | banks has this bad guy turned good vaguely threatening angle | 08:06 |
| fenn | yer typical antihero | 08:08 |
| kanzure | wsa gonna be doing tornado/zeromq things today | 08:09 |
| kanzure | or verbnurbs mechanism design for mouse handling | 08:09 |
| fenn | i have been putting off learning how to effectively use solvespace for several months now | 08:10 |
| kanzure | (or mouse handling cost estimates... but more curious how far i can push the concept of automatic mouse handling) | 08:10 |
| kanzure | verbnurbs seems to have cleaner code, better tests, and also it's no longer javascript-only | 08:10 |
| kanzure | http://verbnurbs.com/examples/surfaceIntersection.html | 08:11 |
| fenn | last i looked it required webgl which my computer won't ever support | 08:11 |
| kanzure | python version doesn't require webgl | 08:11 |
| kanzure | and the actual implementation isn't webgl-specific | 08:11 |
| kanzure | guess that means someone should write a visualizer for the non-browser version | 08:12 |
| fenn | i'm just not at all interested in the idea of a browser based cad program | 08:12 |
| fenn | apparently a lot of people think this is a good idea but i can't figure out why | 08:12 |
| fenn | i'm all for a better nurbs based geometry engine though | 08:13 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/shots/2015-10-25-101304--verbnurbs-com-examples-surfaceIntersection-html-1445785971891.png | 08:13 |
| kanzure | verbnurbs isn't browser-based anymore | 08:13 |
| fenn | ok so that's like the bare minimum geometrical primitives needed to start building a cad program around | 08:14 |
| kanzure | sure | 08:14 |
| fenn | is anyone building a cad program around it? | 08:15 |
| kanzure | need some chamfers, fillets, etc. | 08:15 |
| kanzure | well, he was making a browser interface around it, but it didn't look interesting to me | 08:15 |
| fenn | need constraints, features, labels, 2d import, 3d export etc | 08:15 |
| kanzure | there's a good api under the hood, i'd rather just use that | 08:15 |
| kanzure | constraint solving is another open problem though... not even gce seems like good fit :-/. | 08:15 |
| fenn | constraint solving is an open problem? | 08:16 |
| kanzure | labels, doable... features, don't know implementation details of features. i assume "different geometry with semantics". | 08:16 |
| kanzure | constraint solving for an open-source cad engine is an open problem, yeah. i don't think brlcad has anything for this. | 08:16 |
| kanzure | opencascade has a few things but... meh. pythonocc has demonstrated the use of that constraint solver but buggy as hell. | 08:16 |
| fenn | features is things like holes, extrusions, threads, chamfers | 08:16 |
| kanzure | ok, so pre-defined surface manipulation operations | 08:17 |
| kanzure | chamfers and fillets are more difficult than holes and extrusions | 08:17 |
| fenn | yep | 08:17 |
| kanzure | i think 2d import is doable by single programmer-day of effort | 08:17 |
| kanzure | 3d export... not sure how to do that. pythonized version of verbnurbs, then ctypes/cffi bindings to stepcode? | 08:18 |
| kanzure | or emscripten version of stepcode (just kidding) | 08:19 |
| kanzure | most of effort there will be in initial setup of bindings, followed by hooking up types between verbnurbs and stepcode and any necessary differences or mutations :-/ | 08:20 |
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| fenn | it's kinda embarrassing to read things like this from 1996 http://alum.wpi.edu/~gregm/thesis/node11.html | 08:21 |
| kanzure | why? | 08:22 |
| fenn | because there's still no open source cad program that does that | 08:22 |
| kanzure | i suspect some of the cad lingo is the result of commercial marketing materials from the era | 08:22 |
| kanzure | "history! parametric! features!!" | 08:22 |
| kanzure | "features" is a terrible name | 08:22 |
| kanzure | all of this relational stuff is easy to do once you have the cad kernel done | 08:23 |
| kanzure | i wonder if porting fillets from opencascade would be dramatically easier than porting opencascade's surface-surface intersection code | 08:24 |
| fenn | no | 08:24 |
| kanzure | "BRepFilletAPI" http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade/ | 08:24 |
| fenn | fillets are one of the most complex things in opencascade | 08:24 |
| kanzure | "FilletSurf - API giving only geometric information about fillets for Toyota Project UV4. TwoExtremityOnEdge, OneExtremityOnEdge, NoExtremityOnEdge, etc." | 08:24 |
| kanzure | "BRepFilletAPI - MakeFillet, MakeChamfer, MakeFillet2d, see also BRepBuilderAPI." | 08:25 |
| fenn | i don't think it needs to be quite so nutty, like nobody really needs variable radius fillets | 08:25 |
| fenn | you can define the changing radii of a fillet with a curve (i think it can do elliptical fillets) | 08:25 |
| fenn | but like, why | 08:26 |
| kanzure | maybe opencascade fillet complexity is because (1) their programmers don't care about simplicity at all, and (2) underlying api sucked | 08:26 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/tpaviot/oce/tree/master/src/BRepFilletAPI | 08:26 |
| kanzure | gah i hate this so much. where's the actual implementation? | 08:27 |
| fenn | i would be happy with just toroidal+cylindrical sections for fillets, and anything more complicated would be done with a nurbs patch modeler or custom python code | 08:27 |
| fenn | a thing that minimizes error between a nurbs patch and a mathematical function would be nice | 08:28 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/tpaviot/oce/tree/master/src/ChFi3d | 08:29 |
| fenn | oh i guess thread roots aren't toroidal, meh | 08:30 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/tpaviot/oce/blob/master/src/ChFi3d/ChFi3d_ChBuilder_C3.cxx | 08:30 |
| fenn | i am so not looking at any of that | 08:30 |
| kanzure | you just don't like french source code | 08:31 |
| fenn | guilty | 08:31 |
| kanzure | we should submit patches to opencascade with klingon comments just to troll them | 08:31 |
| fenn | lojban is more culturally neutral | 08:32 |
| kanzure | "what do you mean not an accepted language? everything else seems to be." | 08:32 |
| kanzure | i was thinking various large chunks of metal to handle small animals | 08:35 |
| kanzure | automatic cage cleaning and such | 08:35 |
| kanzure | re-mulching | 08:36 |
| kanzure | dunno whether to call that mulching | 08:36 |
| kanzure | scheduled socializing, or rfid tagging to pick members out of a group living together | 08:37 |
| fenn | maybe treat it like a microfluidics chip instead of an object that needs manipulating | 08:37 |
| kanzure | use plungers to push them around? | 08:37 |
| fenn | here is a thing with such and such spatial frequency and corner radii, with valves that blow mulch and rodents around in air jets | 08:38 |
| kanzure | i expect that the operational requirements for managing lots of cages will look strangely similar to managing lots of servers and racks | 08:38 |
| fenn | nah much lower power density | 08:39 |
| kanzure | (but cages do sound a little dumb to me; unlikely that cages are optimal structure for automatic handling of anything.) | 08:39 |
| kanzure | no jackson labs / jax tour on youtube :-( | 08:40 |
| fenn | maybe make everything out of pvc plumbing pipes and monitor the rodents with microwave radar imaging | 08:40 |
| kanzure | no cages? | 08:41 |
| fenn | let's not get philosophical about what is a cage | 08:41 |
| kanzure | no i mean, pvc pipes only? | 08:41 |
| fenn | yes | 08:42 |
| kanzure | and then exercise wheels attached to valves and such? | 08:42 |
| fenn | do they need exercise wheels? is that a thing? | 08:42 |
| fenn | also, do they need light? | 08:43 |
| fenn | light is easy to provide though | 08:43 |
| kanzure | yes i think exercise wheels is necessary | 08:44 |
| kanzure | as well as socialization | 08:44 |
| kanzure | and group grooming seems to be required, but haven't looked at studies | 08:44 |
| fenn | i'm trying to eliminate any robotics and just make all the manipulation as few moving parts as possible | 08:45 |
| kanzure | rabbit restraints https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzh9_bmo4Q&t=4m30s | 08:45 |
| kanzure | yeah i can see the appeal of no robotics | 08:47 |
| kanzure | group socialization would seem to require robotics though | 08:48 |
| fenn | "the archaic LD50 test" uhhh what do they expect us to use | 08:49 |
| kanzure | strange how most of the youtube videos are about animal abuse investigations re: animal testing | 08:49 |
| kanzure | i would expect an animal testing facility to throw up videos showing off how awesome their animals are doing | 08:49 |
| kanzure | "socialization! playtime! look they aren't dropping dead from stress." | 08:50 |
| kanzure | and then they can shame everyone else for not paying up for less harmful animal testing | 08:50 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21H0tufUYUI | 08:52 |
| yoleaux | Rat Breeding Facility sneak peek - YouTube | 08:52 |
| fenn | most of the animal facility people are really worried that anything they show will be perceived negatively and used against them somehow | 08:54 |
| fenn | i liked that cow carousel video | 08:54 |
| kanzure | well, you do need to measure animal wellness somehow, and make sure the number doesn't drop below some threshold, and in general try to increase that value... | 08:55 |
| fenn | .title http://youtu.be/pjx0EgXflPM | 08:55 |
| yoleaux | YouTube | 08:55 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z7Ym0h-Jbs | 08:55 |
| yoleaux | Rat Breeding Room!! - YouTube | 08:55 |
| kanzure | youtube says pjx0EgXflPM is private | 08:56 |
| fenn | man fuck the new internet | 08:56 |
| fenn | nothing works anymore | 08:56 |
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| kanzure | that's a lot of cage cleaning | 08:56 |
| kanzure | i think they just push the food around over the cage and it drops in | 08:58 |
| kanzure | when i owned a rabbit farm, i was using large sheets of plywood underneath each cage, and the cage floor was just some form of chickenwire. so cleaning was just apply water and replace plywood. | 09:01 |
| kanzure | but mulch seems to be requirement here... hrm. | 09:01 |
| fenn | you had a rabbit farm? | 09:08 |
| kanzure | rabbits, frogs, fish, cats, hermit crabs, red-ear slider turtles, gerbils | 09:09 |
| fenn | .title http://youtu.be/JJRy82i8e5Q | 09:09 |
| yoleaux | Fair Oaks Farms Adventure Center - America's Heartland - YouTube | 09:09 |
| fenn | (cow carousel) | 09:09 |
| kanzure | ((cow vacation resort)) | 09:09 |
| kanzure | mulch can work with pvc pipes. and you can put multple mice in a pvc pipe. probably works for socialization. | 09:13 |
| kanzure | but how do you get a single one alone, and how do you clean without sending the critters to /dev/null? | 09:13 |
| fenn | mulch has a different density so it can be separated from mice with air flows like separating wheat from chaff | 09:16 |
| fenn | i'm not sure about separating mice from each other but probably something similar like a skydiving column | 09:17 |
| fenn | mostly you'd wait until they are in their room alone and then pipe the entire room's contents out | 09:17 |
| fenn | each mouse would have an RFID chip so they could be uniquely identified | 09:18 |
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| maaku | fenn: did you just invent an indoor skydiving rig to sort rodents? | 09:34 |
| maaku | that is why I love this awesome channel | 09:34 |
| maaku | I am now awaiting your 'Transcriptic of mouse studies' startup | 09:35 |
| kanzure | nah, selective breeding startup | 09:36 |
| kanzure | so that fenn can get his giant wasp for human transportation | 09:36 |
| kanzure | would skydiving column be compatible with young pinks? | 09:37 |
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| kanzure | would internally-threaded pvc pipes be of any use? perhaps if the pipe was rotating at a slow rate? | 09:39 |
| maaku | there's only one way to know | 09:39 |
| kanzure | there ae many ways to know things | 09:40 |
| maaku | kanzure: do you mean like as a switch for routing rodents? | 09:41 |
| kanzure | nah i was thinking of waste cleanup. but waste will just fall down when under rotation. so not helpful. | 09:41 |
| kanzure | you could feed magnets to the mice and then apply an electromagnet while you flush the pvc pipe | 09:41 |
| kanzure | or constant stream of water to move waste away. power-cleaning for when the tube has been vacated. | 09:43 |
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| FourFire | > fenn> but things underwater want to be circular because physics | 12:21 |
| FourFire | use oval doors | 12:21 |
| fenn | i don't think ovals work | 12:29 |
| fenn | clamshell maybe | 12:29 |
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| chris_99 | nmz787, about? | 12:50 |
| kanzure | okay so we grow giant clams.... | 12:57 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3q38qg/iama_martin_shkreli_ceo_of_turing_pharmaceuticals/ | 12:58 |
| kanzure | hmm he has a drug for toxoplasmosis. hm. | 12:59 |
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| Aurelius_Home2 | kanzure : apparently Peter Rothman is in some FDA trial related to aging | 13:52 |
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| FourFire | "<fenn> because there's still no open source cad program that does that" what's the best contender? | 14:44 |
| * FourFire just learned how to use FreeCAD last week | 14:45 | |
| kanzure | verbnurbs, solvespace | 14:45 |
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| kanzure | Aurelius_Home2: should i know that person? | 15:39 |
| Aurelius_Home2 | he runs hplusmagazine | 15:39 |
| Aurelius_Home2 | and used to do virtual reality dev? | 15:39 |
| kanzure | i talked on the phone with someone at hplusmagazine who was asking me some questions about how everything worked, this was about 8 or 9 months ago and i was extremely ill and i seem to have no record of this | 15:40 |
| kanzure | i wonder what else i'm doing when i'm extremely ill.. | 15:41 |
| kanzure | anyway, that might have been peter rothman i guess | 15:41 |
| kanzure | huh, i mean more than a year ago, weird. | 15:42 |
| kanzure | bloo | 16:57 |
| kanzure | +p | 16:57 |
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| Josh|NH4H | Hey there | 17:25 |
| maaku | kanzure: meet Josh|NH4H, the chemistry guy I was telling you about earlier | 17:26 |
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| justanotheruser | bye | 17:53 |
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| maaku | kanzure fenn et al : Josh|NH4H is a mechanical engineering graduate, but his work I'm familiar with is on terraforming chemistry and closing the loop on the chemical pathways of in-situ space resource usage or industrial processes | 18:43 |
| maaku | he is also employable at the moment | 18:44 |
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| kanzure | Josh|NH4H: have you seen things like "genetic engineering of bacteria to get stuff to grow on mars"? | 19:47 |
| Josh|NH4H | Kanzure, I've heard of the idea and I've seen some stuff about extremophiles that would be good starting points | 19:54 |
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| kanzure | someone was making somewhat-mars-like simulated habitats for bacteria. maybe this was an igem team or john cumbers. i forget. | 19:57 |
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| maaku | kanzure has ideas for evolving extremophiles to survive in successively harsher environments | 19:58 |
| maaku | it would be really nice if we had a bug that could live on the surface of mars as a base organism for synthetic bio purposes | 19:58 |
| kanzure | yes; also, we can assume some basic conditions such as if we need to pollute mars with some feedstock everywhere (but has to be feedstock that we can make in orbit or something) | 19:59 |
| Josh|NH4H | Such as fixed nitrogen? | 20:02 |
| maaku | i would like to see a blimp incubator that concentrated what it could pull from the atmosphere to provide an environment for growing these microbes, then spray them out | 20:03 |
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| maaku | load it up with a bunch of 'pellets' of various engineered microbes for various purposes, and a downward facing spectrometer | 20:03 |
| Josh|NH4H | It might be best to encourage really intense cultivation of one area like the Valles or Hellas and then let the organisms spread according to biology and evolution | 20:06 |
| maaku | or the poles | 20:07 |
| maaku | lots of volatiles | 20:07 |
| maaku | i wonder what the ideal environment would be | 20:07 |
| Josh|NH4H | Where's the crater with that liquid water? | 20:08 |
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| kanzure | dunno location | 20:12 |
| kanzure | another option is that we can just terraform the planet we're currently on | 20:12 |
| Josh|NH4H | I assume it's fairly equatorial | 20:12 |
| Josh|NH4H | What would you do to make Earth more habitable? | 20:12 |
| kanzure | cambrian genomics had a goal that went like "replace 40-60% of all plant life on earth with genetically engineered alternatives" | 20:12 |
| kanzure | various photosynthesis improvements | 20:12 |
| kanzure | bigger potatoes | 20:13 |
| kanzure | that sort of thing | 20:13 |
| Josh|NH4H | Better photosynthesis is good for crops, but might not be for flora in general | 20:13 |
| kanzure | details, details, bah | 20:13 |
| maaku | kanzure: but ... SPACE! | 20:13 |
| Josh|NH4H | No reason we can't do both | 20:14 |
| kanzure | Josh|NH4H: one of the things from this channel is a dna synthesis machine (in progress, design phase i guess) http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/ | 20:14 |
| Josh|NH4H | reading now | 20:16 |
| maaku | kanzure: might replace "Each layer" with "Each successive scanline" to avoid the misunderstanding I had about building vertically | 20:17 |
| maaku | and yes I know it's a wiki ... i should figure out how to make the change myself | 20:17 |
| maaku | or are you actually targetting the same drops on successive passes? it is unclear to me | 20:19 |
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| kanzure | but it is built vertically- the droplets are placed vertically on top of each other. they just happen to mix. | 20:29 |
| kanzure | successive pass targeting, yeah | 20:29 |
| kanzure | i think you're supposed to be able to print a page of colored ink, and then reprint the whole page with a different color, very closely covering all of the original dots | 20:30 |
| maaku | right ok so you're doing both -- you're depositing an array of droplets, maybe up to ~100 drops per pixel to build a couple of dozen base pairs in each reaction chamber | 20:31 |
| maaku | and then the 'pixels' merge together and combine their contents. is that correct? | 20:31 |
| maaku | or do you micropipette to get the results of each pixel? | 20:31 |
| kanzure | merging/micropipetting is undecided yet, it's an open design question | 20:32 |
| kanzure | array of drops for first layer, then a second layer gets put down with the different reagents per target location, each target location can build different oligonucleotide molecule over time | 20:33 |
| kanzure | single-spot resolution delivery of chemical reagents | 20:33 |
| maaku | right ok, I think I understand now | 20:34 |
| maaku | what was confusing me was the bit about drop surfaces not merging | 20:34 |
| maaku | successive drops to the same pixel merge, correct? just not neighboring drops | 20:34 |
| kanzure | during the initial synthesis of individual oligos, neighboring drops on the surface are not meant to merge | 20:35 |
| maaku | so you're doing positional chemistry by selectively depositing only one molecule (+ non-reactive fluid) to each drop at a time, with (by design) a single low energy reaction at each step | 20:36 |
| kanzure | however, each droplet, at the end of the reaction cycles etc., has a 100 bp oligonucleotide molecule (well, probably less than 100 bp; yield/error rate is driving concern here), and the goal is to combine the oligos into superlong oligo. | 20:36 |
| kanzure | not one molecule, many molecules- it's just typical in-liquid-phase chemistry. | 20:36 |
| kanzure | yes i should clarify that each drop houses many millions of individual growing molecules | 20:37 |
| maaku | ah ok well that's a big difference | 20:37 |
| justanotheruser | http://hammerproject.com/post/130804023369/iot-intro-sms-me-when-i-leave-my-garage-door-open | 20:38 |
| justanotheruser | .title | 20:38 |
| yoleaux | the Hammer Project - IoT Intro: SMS me when I leave my garage door open | 20:38 |
| justanotheruser | TIL you can do open your garage door over the internet without using a blockchain in the middle | 20:38 |
| kanzure | in most designs, these molecules are attached to a microparticle or microsphere ("solid support"), or to the surface below the drop. this way, when you wash the junk out (which is necessary after each additive reaction step), you don't lose your progress. | 20:38 |
| maaku | ah interesting | 20:39 |
| kanzure | heh my head is full of tornado/zermq/sockets at the moment, not dna synthesis details :-) | 20:40 |
| kanzure | *zeromq | 20:40 |
| maaku | heh well I'm thinking about planning engines and cpu microarchitectures | 20:41 |
| maaku | but cool i think i have a much better understanding | 20:41 |
| kanzure | does nasa have any fancy geometric constraint solvers? | 20:42 |
| kanzure | not gce | 20:42 |
| Josh|NH4H | Seems like a cool design | 20:42 |
| kanzure | Josh|NH4H: we're going to build it once design gets better finalized and once we find someone to debug the machine once constructed (there's no way it will be operational on day one) | 20:43 |
| kanzure | we can pay for stuff, but need to be prudent | 20:43 |
| kanzure | this sort of technology can enable lots of genetic engineering stuff: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/projects/#igem-2014 | 20:44 |
| Josh|NH4H | Wow | 20:45 |
| Josh|NH4H | What does debugging involve? | 20:45 |
| kanzure | typical chemistry debugging | 20:46 |
| kanzure | "why does this reaction not work? wtf" | 20:46 |
| kanzure | "gosh looks like i need to tweak 10-15 different variables to get the yield above 0%" | 20:46 |
| kanzure | "why is the solvent eating through the surface? this seems bad." | 20:47 |
| Josh|NH4H | haha | 20:47 |
| Josh|NH4H | Very interesting stuff, for sure | 20:47 |
| kanzure | Jawmare: general discussion stuff above^ | 20:48 |
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| codo | hola | 21:01 |
| codo | anyone here ?? | 21:02 |
| maaku | there's about 86 people here | 21:04 |
| Josh|NH4H | Hey codo | 21:05 |
| codo | Wanted to thank the person who wrote this transcripts and was wondering if he hangs around here. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/arvind-narayanan/ | 21:09 |
| codo | I'm a cyborg with a cochlear implant. And I rely on transcripts like this to get information from videos/interviews etc. | 21:09 |
| codo | I wish people find ways to contribute more to transcripts of technology/sciency stuff like this one. | 21:10 |
| Josh|NH4H | Off to bed for me | 21:19 |
| maaku | codo: he has been known to hang out here | 21:19 |
| maaku | Josh|NH4H: good night | 21:19 |
| Josh|NH4H | Gnight cishumans | 21:19 |
| Josh|NH4H | Night maaku | 21:19 |
| codo | night | 21:19 |
| Josh|NH4H | Night codo | 21:20 |
| codo | if there are other transcripts like that please feel free to put online somewhere. | 21:20 |
| codo | they help a lot | 21:20 |
| maaku | codo: walk back the URL : http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/ | 21:22 |
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| codo | yea, I did :) | 21:25 |
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| kanzure | codo: show me sufficiently good videos and more might be typed... video is often dumb idea, plaintext way better. | 22:40 |
| codo | kanzure: ah you are here. I was about to email you to say thanks! | 22:41 |
| codo | kanzure: are you comfortable with Computer Science related videos hmm ? | 22:41 |
| kanzure | i am uncomfortable with all videos | 22:41 |
| codo | kanzure: haha | 22:41 |
| codo | kanzure: I was hoping that some of these videos paperswelove.org get transcribed. | 22:41 |
| kanzure | oh gross, why are those videos wtf | 22:42 |
| codo | Untill machine learning improves automatic transcription to human level accuracy, manual transcription is the way forward still I guess. | 22:43 |
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| kanzure | agreed | 22:46 |
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| -!- drethelin [drethelin@24-241-226-112.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:02 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:05 | |
| -!- sandeepkr [~sandeepkr@111.235.64.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 23:10 | |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDLM-dXP-KE | 23:15 |
| yoleaux | Star Wars: The Blackened Mantle (The Prequels Rewritten / Recut) - YouTube | 23:15 |
| kanzure | japanese yoda is hilarious | 23:15 |
| kanzure | http://casemed.case.edu/ora/iacuc/policies/rodent_space_requirements.cfm | 23:27 |
| kanzure | "Investigators should be aware that housing 5 mice per cage can be noncompliant with regulations. Mice heavier than 25 grams must have at least 15 square inches of floor space per mouse. Standard mouse shoeboxes used at the ARC provide 68 square inches of floor space. According to current PHS and AAALAC regulations this can accommodate 5 mice <25 grams, or 4 mice >25 grams." | 23:27 |
| kanzure | http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/PDF/Policies/Animal%20Use%20Policies/policy_on_cage_density_requirements.pdf | 23:28 |
| kanzure | randall munroe must be reading hplusroadmap logs http://xkcd.com/1594/ | 23:34 |
| poppingtonic | that is a good one | 23:37 |
| --- Log closed Mon Oct 26 00:00:03 2015 | ||
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