2015-12-07.log

--- Log opened Mon Dec 07 00:00:30 2015
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archelsa friend pointed me to this radio show  http://podbay.fm/show/83110052701:48
archelsdefinitely one of the more bizarre things I've heard in my life01:48
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poppingtonicnice show! I listened to "Listen Fear"02:29
poppingtonicsorry... "This Fear"02:29
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wrldpc1So I started a podcast.04:18
wrldpc1.site www.getbusypodcast.com04:19
wrldpc1eh04:19
wrldpc1.url getbusypodcast.com04:19
wrldpc1god damn it, I forgot the commands.04:19
archels.title04:19
yoleauxGet Busy Podcast04:19
archelsinformative.04:19
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=fd365210 Bryan Bishop: some prior work on validation cost metric >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/validation-cost-metric/06:52
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7f3884dc Bryan Bishop: add link to segregated witness video >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/segregated-witness-and-its-impact-on-scalability/08:08
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=1b0848f8 Bryan Bishop: include link to correction about the graph >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/overview-of-bips-necessary-for-lightning/08:18
kanzure"I plan to try this out sometime this week, OCCT seems to have a fair amount of trouble making an ordinary pipe tee (tangent faces). Even with some help (making the branch cylinder slightly smaller), it still has trouble."08:36
kanzure(on oce-dev mailing list)08:36
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xentrachmm, I don't know about oce-dev08:43
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kanzureParahSailin: https://scalingbitcoin.org/chinese-terms#terms08:50
kanzurexentrac: oce-dev is opencascade community edition dev mailing list. tpaviot/jelle and friends.08:50
kanzurexentrac: https://github.com/tpaviot/oce08:51
xentraccool09:01
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=2f29d443 Bryan Bishop: include link to other segwit explanation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/segregated-witness-and-its-impact-on-scalability/09:03
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=d5cd3df2 Bryan Bishop: update links inside most hong kong talks >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/zero-knowledge-proofs-for-bitcoin-scalability-and-beyond/09:03
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=89371e96 Bryan Bishop: include link to bip105 in flexcap talk >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/a-flexible-limit-trading-subsidy-for-larger-blocks/09:09
xentrac(and here I am doing parametric laser-cut design in raw PostScript like a troglodyte)09:10
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kanzurexentrac: opencascade has its own problems... here are my notes: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade09:10
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xentracthe Pname/Tname thing sounds eerily like Symbian C++ convetnions09:13
xentracthose are some extensive notes.  they could benefit from a table of contents and overview paragraph09:14
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=67e6607b Bryan Bishop: simplified explanation of segregated witness by sipa >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/segregated-witness-and-its-impact-on-scalability/09:19
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=d9ee34d9 Bryan Bishop: even more segwit follow-up >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/segregated-witness-and-its-impact-on-scalability/09:42
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=852dbcf4 Bryan Bishop: make LN bootstrapping comment more explicit >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/network-topologies-and-their-scalability-implications-on-decentralized-off-chain-networks/09:56
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=eb76efd2 Bryan Bishop: make LN data requirements more explicit >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/overview-of-bips-necessary-for-lightning/09:56
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=c5521072 Bryan Bishop: include libsnark.org link >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/zero-knowledge-proofs-for-bitcoin-scalability-and-beyond/09:56
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=74086403 Bryan Bishop: include link to flexcap source code >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/a-flexible-limit-trading-subsidy-for-larger-blocks/10:15
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=8e744f21 Bryan Bishop: add link about transaction fee estimation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/a-bevy-of-block-size-proposals-bip100-bip102-and-more/10:49
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=a153a09e Bryan Bishop: segwit link for lightning talk >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/overview-of-bips-necessary-for-lightning/11:06
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=8dd474d0 Bryan Bishop: include link to jgarzik video >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/a-bevy-of-block-size-proposals-bip100-bip102-and-more/11:19
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kanzurei wonder if there is a genetic basis to adult onset temporal acceleration, and whether that could be fixed.11:40
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doclhttp://server-sky.com/Orycon201511:53
eudoxia"50 AU Stapledon Dyson Shell made of Kuiper Belt Ice" now that's how you get my attention11:56
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eudoxianice http://slides.server-sky.com/StadyOr2015/stadysupernova_D_intro.html12:06
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eudoxianow, this is a bit hopeful http://slides.server-sky.com/StadyOr2015/StadyFind_D_Observables.html12:09
eudoxiathere are, what, 600-800 stars in 32ly radius?12:09
eudoxia10 of them can't possibly be dyson spheres12:10
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xentracbecause we would have noticed already?12:35
eudoxianot necessarily12:36
eudoxiajust because it's too high a number12:36
xentracpresumably soon all 600–800 of them will have dyson spheres12:36
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=3f26a39a fivepiece: Change Meni's surname from Rosenbaum to Rosenfeld >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/a-bevy-of-block-size-proposals-bip100-bip102-and-more/12:41
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=514cfba2 Bryan Bishop: Merge pull request #3 from fivepiece/master >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/12:41
doclI'm doubtful that there are any dyson spheres in our past light cone so far. Otherwise we'd have been eaten already.12:41
kanzuredyson spheres aren't about eating everything in the universe12:41
kanzuredocl: you might be interested in this one, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/Starivore%20extraterrestrials%20-%20Interacting%20binary%20stars%20as%20macroscopic%20metabolic%20systems%20-%20Clement%20Vidal.pdf12:42
kanzurexentrac: you might also be interested in that one12:42
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eudoxiait might turn out that for most posthumans, once you've dyson-sphered a star, you have the means but not really the desire to leave the system12:43
kanzurewhat happened to just computing in neutron dust on the edge of a black hole or whatever.12:43
kanzurealso, whatever happened to the guy in here that wanted to convert everything in the visible universe into computronium? do we still have him?12:44
Aurelius_Work2I can't remember. I might have discussed that idea.12:44
kanzurethat was you? huh.12:44
Aurelius_Work2It's an idea12:44
Aurelius_Work2I assume I'm not smart enough to decide whether or not it's a -good- idea12:45
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eudoxiayou gotta hurry up, every second we waste the local cluster gets further and further from everything else12:47
kanzureyeah, the light sphere is dissipating at a rate of a few million cubic lightyears per second or something12:48
xentraceudoxia: maybe that's possible through a sort of Fermi paradox12:54
eudoxiaxentrac: well, one of the solutions to the fermi paradox is the "everyone gets really into VR" scenario12:55
xentracthat seems like a vanishingly unlikely solution12:55
eudoxiaor, a different statement: the species that produce technological civilizations are gregarious12:55
kanzurethe alternative civilizations could be looking right at us, hidden in background star field, fucking up our understanding of astrophysics12:56
xentracif you have a trillion technological civilizations and only one out of a billion is expansionist, that's still a thousand civilizations that reach Kardashev Type 2, or compete with another one to do so12:56
kanzure(someone refuted this point a while back on hacker news, but i don't remember if the refutation was good)12:56
kanzureah, here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1025222212:57
xentracI could believe that only one out of a hundred or only one out of a thousand civilizations avoid "everyone gets really into VR"12:57
xentracbut zero?12:57
xentracthat's only plausible if the total number of civilizations is close to one12:58
eudoxiawell, consider that all of them develop WBE and move on to live in computers12:58
kanzurehave you read "xenology"? http://www.xenology.info/Xeno.htm12:58
eudoxiathen computers get up to the theoretical limit, and a 10-year trip on a relativistic rocket becomes a 10000 year epic of sitting, alone, on a very limited computer12:58
eudoxiai have not (i should get around to reading AASM)12:59
xentracI haven't, although of course I've been influenced by Freitas's ideas :)12:59
xentracsure, if you have a persistent personal identity then you have to choose between hanging out in your happy dyson sphere and riding the rocket13:00
xentracbut you don't, so you can do both13:00
xentracif you have the tech13:01
kanzuretwo-phase commit is better identity met-- hm. actually i have no idea. i sort of reject the notion that there is localized consensus in human brain matter.13:01
TMAthe selection pressure in organisms is mostly interspecies competition for resources; unless there is advantage in interstellar travel they might be just busy infighting13:04
xentracwell, the advantage in interstellar travel is that the resources you reach aren't being competed for yet13:07
xentracnmz787_: you decided BRL-CAD is more useful than FreeCAD?13:07
TMAxentrac: the disadvantages are that for any time you leave the resources would be occupied by others leaving later on a faster ship by the time you get there13:08
xentracI guess that's sort of a dumb question in that BRL-CAD has been in production use for decades and so it is clearly useful for some things13:08
kanzurefreecad is okay as long as you save every few minutes because opencascade crashyness....13:08
xentracTMA: that's possible, but if one or more group gets there, then one of them got there first13:09
kanzureand as long as you don't mind the long-term non-maintainability of freecad (due to opencascade) (not saying juergen's work is bad or anything; he just has poor tools to work from.)13:09
TMAxentrac: the point is there is a strong deflationary pressure -- at every time T it is better to wait for a little while more13:11
xentracyes, and by that logic buying a computer any time from 1965 to 2015 was a terrible idea13:12
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xentrac(although of course it doesn't inherently have the competition aspect to it)13:12
TMAand the other difference is that our lifespan is still not indefinite13:13
TMAso there are other incentives to put off putting off13:14
xentracI don't think a race of immortals considering buying computers from 1965 to 2015 would have been well-served to wait the 50 years until Moore's Law ended either13:14
xentraceven if they were competing to crack a Bitcoin key first or something13:14
kanzureamusing to think best use of computing resources, to crack a private key, is actually not grinding immediately in 1965, but rather reserving time for cpu design simulation stuff and analysis and study13:16
kanzurexentrac: btw you might be interested in extensive testing used during development of libsecp256k1 http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-2015-11-09-mining-and-block-size-etc/13:18
TMAand there is the second option to staying home -- to be forever on the move at relativistic speeds, never actually stopping anywhere13:19
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xentrackanzure: yes, buying in 1965 is probably also not the optimal strategy :)13:23
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xentracyeah, clearly the strategy that brings the largest amount of energy under your control is to expand your sphere of influence as close to lightspeed as you can make it13:23
xentracsustainably13:24
drethelinwhy would you want the largest amount of energy13:24
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drethelinwhat for13:24
doclWell, we don't know how to make very good computronium yet. The resource level needed to crack machine-phase nanotech is probably substantial. So we should focus on clanking replicators for now.13:24
kanzureproteins are nanotech13:25
doclYes they are, but they aren't machine phase. They are twisty polymers in a solution of warm water.13:26
doclVery chaotic and non design friendly.13:26
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eudoxiaunless someone makes an artificial ribosome that can crank out fullerene or diamond, i don't think proteins will be an enabler to MNT/DMS13:27
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xentracdrethelin: everything good costs energy13:40
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kanzurethere are far more proteins outside of water than-- well, nevermind. the ocean is pretty huge.13:42
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nmz787_ixentrac: I thought BRL-CAD was the only tool up to the job, with as you said all its years of production use... I am working on MEMS so the dynamic range and math errors (or lack thereof) were of great importance to me in my selection process14:03
nmz787_ieudoxia: what is MNT/DMS?14:09
nmz787_i.wik MNT14:09
yoleaux"Disambiguation: MNT" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MNT14:09
nmz787_i.wik DMS14:09
yoleaux"Disambiguation: DMS" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMS14:09
eudoxia.wik Molecular Nanotechnology14:10
yoleaux"Molecular nanotechnology (MNT) is a technology based on the ability to build structures to complex, atomic specifications by means of mechanosynthesis. This is distinct from nanoscale materials." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_Nanotechnology14:10
eudoxia.wik Diamond Mechanosynthesis14:10
yoleaux"Mechanosynthesis is a term for hypothetical chemical syntheses in which reaction outcomes are determined by the use of mechanical constraints to direct reactive molecules to specific molecular sites. There are presently no chemical syntheses which achieve this aim. Some atomic placement has been achieved with scanning tunnelling microscopes." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanosynthesis14:10
nmz787_iah, ok14:10
kanzurenmz787_i: see https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer14:10
nmz787_ikanzure:  no new commits in a while14:11
docl"There are presently no  chemical syntheses which achieve this aim." Sounds like something David Gerard would say. Is it true?14:13
kanzureyea a lot of cleanup requirement14:13
kanzurerefactoring etc14:13
eudoxia"no chemical syntheses" is a weird of phrasing it14:13
nmz787_ianyone in here gonna try the latest room temp diamond synthesis?14:13
eudoxiai mean, it has been demonstrated in the lab14:13
nmz787_iI think the main thing needed was a pulsed laser14:13
eudoxiakanzure: have you thought about replacing the chroot thing with a Dockerfile14:14
kanzurenope haven't thought about that. i wouldn't mind including some dockerfile instructions. also, the lazy way is to put a chroot into a docker container.....14:15
kanzuregmaxwell comments on bitcoin scalability proposals http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011865.html14:16
nmz787_ibitcoin isn't scalable as-is?14:17
kanzureit's bandwidth-constrained14:17
kanzureevery node has to validate every transaction14:17
kanzureif node has limited bandwidth, and network goes beyond that, then node gets kicked off and oops can't use bitcoin14:17
docleudoxia: How has it been demonstrated in the lab? In-silico and AFM only, or is there another type of mechanosynthesis? Should CVD of graphene and that sort of thing count?14:34
eudoxialet me dig it up14:35
eudoxiaOyabu et al. http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.90.17610214:35
eudoxiathat was AFM and in silico, yeah14:35
eudoxiaCVD doesn't count since it relies on the probabilistic behaviour of gas rather than direct mechanical force14:36
eudoxiapatterned atomic layer epitaxy, which is what Zyvex is working on, is atomically precise and works on silicon but isn't mechanosynthesis14:36
nmz787_iso I thought in-silico referred to a computational environment where testing/experimentation had taken place... but here it seems you two are referrring to it happening 'with silicon'14:44
doclnmz787_i: I meant "in computation"14:46
eudoxiaoh, my mistake, yeah14:46
eudoxiai forgot 'in silico' meant 'in a simulation'14:47
eudoxiaOyabu et al. was an AFM on a silicon surface14:47
docl:)14:48
eudoxiait would be nice to have proof on a diamond surface14:51
eudoxianot necessarily of any of the reactions on the minimal toolset, just smash a silicon tip and see what happens14:51
nmz787_ieudoxia: well to be honest, now I'm wondering if that's correct14:51
eudoxianmz787_: what part14:52
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kanzurei wrote a thing in reply to 011865 http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011866.html14:58
nmz787_ieudoxia: is in-silico supposed to mean 'interacting with silicon' or does it mean 'in computation'14:59
eudoxiain computation14:59
eudoxia.wik In silico14:59
yoleaux"In silico (literally Latin for "in silicon", alluding to the mass use of silicon for semiconductor computer chips) is an expression used to mean "performed on computer or via computer simulation." The phrase was coined in 1989 as an allusion to the Latin phrases in vivo, in vitro, and in situ, which are commonly used in biology (see also  …" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_silico14:59
eudoxia.botsnack14:59
yoleaux:D14:59
nmz787_iwhat happens when CPUs stop being silicon14:59
eudoxiaa moment15:00
kanzurethey will always include a single atom of silicon so that our previous terminology will hold15:00
eudoxia.tr English Latin diamond15:00
yoleauxEnglish Latin diamond (en → en)15:00
nmz787_ikanzure: makes sense15:00
eudoxia.tr :en :la diamond15:00
yoleauxadamas (en → la)15:00
eudoxia'in adamas' there you go15:00
nmz787_i.tr English Latin computation15:00
yoleauxEnglish Latin computation (en → en)15:00
eudoxia.tr :en :la computer15:01
yoleauxcomputatrum (en → la)15:01
eudoxia.tr :en :la to calculate15:01
yoleauxcomputare (en → la)15:01
eudoxiahmmm15:01
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doclPatterned layer apataxy looks pretty cool though. http://www.zyvexlabs.com/Research/files/Owen_JVSTB_2011.pdf15:03
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kanzurethese guys claim to be a low-price diybio-friendly reagent vendor http://www.aasinc.co/15:06
eudoxiawent to see what Zyvex was up to and saw this video from this year http://www.jove.com/video/52900/atomically-traceable-nanostructure-fabrication15:08
eudoxiawell, not all of it because paywalls and sci-hub didn't help15:08
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TMAeudoxia: in adamanto.15:09
eudoxiathat's better15:09
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TMAit is a greek word originally, so the declension is somewhat peculiar15:11
TMA;)15:12
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nmz787_i.tr latin english adamanto16:25
yoleauxlatin english adamanto (en → en)16:25
nmz787_i .tr latin : english adamanto16:25
nmz787_i .tr: latin:english adamanto16:26
doclIt is now possible to 3d-print fiberoptic preforms. http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/08/06/first-3d-printed-fiber-optics-created-by-university-of-sydney-researchers-with-desktop-3d-printer/16:27
nmz787_iTMA: translate says 'adamanto' in greek means 'sparkler', and in latin means 'steel'16:27
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doclI wonder if it will ever be possible to print fiber optics directly without need of a drawing tower?16:41
nmz787_idocl: that article is confusing16:42
nmz787_iso they print some tubular structure, then melt that and pull it?16:42
nmz787_iand what they pull is the fiber?16:43
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nmz787_ithat seems like it could still be error prone, like if the printed thing had a bubble, the bubble would just get drawn out too16:43
doclYeah, they are basically just making a big fat version of the fiber optic that gets stretched to make the real thing.16:44
nmz787_ioh, hmm, that doesn't seem that interesting16:45
nmz787_ior rather, less impressive16:45
doclhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1DRrAhQJtM16:45
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doclThe standard way is to use a big fat tube. This seems like a big advance (but less than printing them directly would be).16:48
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doclHypothetically, seems like you could use a system that melts layers of purified glass powder onto a block, with ion implanters that pass over and create doped regions.16:50
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nmz787_idoping for refractive index adjustment?16:51
doclyeah16:53
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-!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church17:25
-!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Wed May 20 12:46:25 2015]17:25
[Users ##hplusroadmap]17:25
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doclhttps://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Danielravennest/papers/Mars2117:50
kanzuresome sort of debate between aubrey de grey and some other people about regenerative anti-aging magic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVnn2bcFcnU17:56
kanzurewhile i was watching this (jumping around a bit) i noticed at 11min 30sec there seems to be someone familiar in the audience (anders sandberg??)17:57
kanzurefourfire confirms that this is anders, and plus this seemed to have taken place at oxford, so seems likely to be anders.... as random as it may be.17:57
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kanzurewell, i suppose it's not impossible to believe that anders would choose to attend this sort of event17:59
kanzureif this was another sort of debate, then perhaps incredulity about anders sandberg showing up would be more appropriate17:59
kanzurebut anti-aging, aubrey (a good friend of his), plus oxford, i suppose that's enough to expect to see anders in the audience at least once.17:59
doclThe people who actually do stuff and have interesting opinions in H+ circles are a much smaller set than one would think.18:00
FourFirearchels?18:01
FourFireno idea18:01
FourFirewhere does Archels live?18:02
kanzuredocl: yes but that's not enough to expect to see anders in random pans over a large non-transhumanist audience18:02
doclYeah, the oxford connection is needed as well.18:03
kanzureoh right, doesn't aubrey "live" near there too? when he's not traveling. is that right? i dunno.18:05
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FourFirekanzure, AI-Box, at all useful, or masturbatory sociopath/nerd-sniping ?18:49
kanzurei haven't found a use for that stuff18:51
kanzurei have never claimed that i have security that can tolerate threat models that include "magic silver bullets that are infinitely persuasive", so it's not much of a concern to me.18:52
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e45de142 Bryan Bishop: add links to videos >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/why-miners-will-not-voluntarily-individually-produce-smaller-blocks/19:39
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FourFiream I ranting hard enough in that other channel?20:13
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kanzureFourFire: i think you should spend more time looking at what works for other people vs what isn't working. pick good role models.20:22
FourFiremy workoholic boss and that amazingly productive guy who said he wished he was a layabout comic-book artist, and the dooers at the hackerspace are sort of my rolemodels, likewise you to some extent (which is why I query you from time to time)20:23
FourFirewhenever I meet a LWer who has their shit together or someone else in the same status class, i ask them things20:24
FourFireYes I can do better, but words are cheap, I should prove it to you.20:25
kanzureyou should uh.. consider the social circle you are drawing from.20:25
kanzureer, expanding the circle20:25
kanzure*consider expanding20:25
kanzurehackerspaces are okay but you are sort of limited to whatever randoms happened to show up locally.... which may or may not be useful for understanding how other people make things work out for themselves.20:26
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fenn"Never stand directly beneath an alien craft hovering at low altitude. Never touch a landed craft."  got it.22:08
drethelinhah22:08
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