| --- Log opened Tue Dec 15 00:00:37 2015 | ||
| Alcyius | exams exhaust me | 00:05 |
|---|---|---|
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| Jawmare | shit.. got some of my result back | 00:09 |
| Jawmare | 2.0, 2.7 | 00:09 |
| Jawmare | not a good start | 00:09 |
| Alcyius | ouch | 00:09 |
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| Alcyius | On a 4.0 scale? | 00:09 |
| Jawmare | yes | 00:10 |
| Jawmare | organic chem and lab course | 00:10 |
| Alcyius | Ochem always sucks though | 00:10 |
| Jawmare | organic III | 00:10 |
| Alcyius | Even the profs and assistants don't like teaching it | 00:10 |
| Jawmare | not a required course, I took it because the lecturer was good | 00:10 |
| Alcyius | Ah | 00:10 |
| Jawmare | I never miss a class | 00:11 |
| Alcyius | I ended up switching my major after I could no longer drop Calc 2 | 00:11 |
| Jawmare | for organic and quantum | 00:11 |
| Alcyius | But got really really sick | 00:11 |
| Alcyius | So I'm hoping to pass with a D | 00:11 |
| Alcyius | so I don't have to pay for it | 00:11 |
| Jawmare | 2.0 for organic.. fuck why did I even take it | 00:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im pretty sure | 00:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | Math isn't organic. | 00:12 |
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| Alcyius | I'd hope not | 00:15 |
| Alcyius | Actually | 00:16 |
| Alcyius | Where's that smbc about how all logic are just machines and break down over time | 00:16 |
| Jawmare | Alcyius, what major are you in? | 00:16 |
| Alcyius | Computer Science | 00:17 |
| Jawmare | and you want to switch into? | 00:17 |
| Alcyius | No I was Computer Engineering | 00:17 |
| Jawmare | stay in CE | 00:17 |
| Alcyius | But I switched over because I can't handle the higher math | 00:17 |
| Jawmare | you are throwing about 20k | 00:17 |
| Alcyius | At least, not right now | 00:17 |
| Jawmare | per year | 00:17 |
| Jawmare | just because you can't handle the math | 00:17 |
| Alcyius | Jawmare, actually, 0 | 00:17 |
| Alcyius | Oh | 00:17 |
| Alcyius | In increased potential earnings | 00:18 |
| Alcyius | Hmmmm | 00:18 |
| Alcyius | Yeah you're right | 00:18 |
| Jawmare | the secret to engineering math is | 00:18 |
| Jawmare | Do past exams | 00:18 |
| Alcyius | I'm going to start calculus over again after I have my depression handled though | 00:18 |
| Alcyius | That's my big issue | 00:18 |
| Alcyius | That and my chronic illness | 00:18 |
| Jawmare | spend a tons of time to do exercises | 00:18 |
| Alcyius | I mean logically I know that, I just have severe motivation issues | 00:23 |
| Jawmare | I am running out of motivation too | 00:23 |
| Alcyius | I had a brief period of self-hatred fueled motivation about 4 months ago | 00:24 |
| Jawmare | I switched out of engineering and I am regreting about that | 00:24 |
| Alcyius | But I've slowly been falling into the same habits since | 00:24 |
| Alcyius | I need to schedule another appointment with my therapist and maybe try another antidepressant | 00:25 |
| Alcyius | http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3465 | 00:30 |
| Alcyius | The dangers of progress for the sake of progress | 00:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3933 | 00:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | this makes my brain hurt | 00:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | make it stop | 00:38 |
| Alcyius | hehehe | 00:38 |
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| Alcyius | http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2595 | 00:39 |
| Alcyius | also, here's an interesting one http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20131122.png | 00:41 |
| Alcyius | "If time travel is possible, then where are all the time travelers?" Sadly, this question goes unanswered until the 2153 global orgy | 00:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | heh | 00:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | there are no time travelers because of multiverse theory | 00:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | we're not in the branch that contains people from the future | 00:53 |
| Alcyius | Or we are, but there's only ever one time traveler | 00:53 |
| Alcyius | So it'd be kinda hard to notice | 00:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, if so | 00:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | that means they destroyed the future | 00:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | by coming to the past | 00:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | and we're all fucking boned | 00:54 |
| Alcyius | Well, they might've only destroyed their future, and we're the offshoot timeline | 00:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, but what if its a self-stable fork | 00:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | so we always destroy ourselves, but send a guy back | 00:54 |
| Alcyius | That's a possibility | 00:55 |
| Alcyius | There's also the Oscillating Timelines | 00:55 |
| Alcyius | I.E., someone goes back and creates one fork, and in that fork, someone goes back and creates the original timeline | 00:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | I like to call those circles. | 00:55 |
| Alcyius | Add steps in the chain as needed | 00:55 |
| Alcyius | Yeah | 00:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | the hilarious thing is | 00:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | they don't actually explicitly say multiverse theory is true | 00:56 |
| Alcyius | Or there's the Hartler idea | 00:57 |
| Alcyius | Basically, everything bad in our timeline is the result of people trying to change it | 00:57 |
| Alcyius | But that's a bit too preachy for my tastes | 00:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, but how do you define bad? | 00:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | I mean, I find that entire concept hilarious and most likely true | 00:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | I subscribe to the "God is a dick with a heart of dicks" viewpoint. | 00:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | The world getting worse due to interference from time travels sounds perfectly logical to me | 00:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | *travelers | 00:59 |
| Alcyius | The idea it gave was that in Timeline A, there was Hartler, who came to power in Weimar Germany and stabilized their currency by pegging it to the USD, causing the Depression to last another 15 years | 00:59 |
| Alcyius | A time traveler went back in time and killed Hartler, and as a result, we now have Hitler | 00:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | so... they murdered him | 00:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah | 00:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats like | 00:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | wow | 00:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | so what happens when they went back to kill hitler? | 00:59 |
| Alcyius | The reason you can't kill Hitler | 00:59 |
| Alcyius | Is because something worse happens | 00:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | Okay, small question | 00:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | and anyone is allowed to answer this one | 00:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | what do you call it when you feel like you went to bed in one timeline, and awoke in another | 01:00 |
| Alcyius | The answer is Q=13 | 01:00 |
| Alcyius | :P | 01:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | things are slightly different, but you can't quite put your finger on it | 01:00 |
| Alcyius | Diablo-D3, some people call it Dimensional Jumping, other people call it the Berenstein effect | 01:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | its like dejavuish sorta | 01:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | so it actually has a name? | 01:00 |
| Alcyius | Some people say its a brain malfunction | 01:00 |
| Alcyius | Depends | 01:00 |
| Alcyius | On whether you're actually in another timeline | 01:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | Ive been asking people randomly for years when conversations like this crop up | 01:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | no one ever gives an answer, only that they know what I mean | 01:01 |
| Alcyius | The proper name is the Mandela Effect | 01:01 |
| Alcyius | Named after an epidemic of people who thought Nelson Mandela died in prison in the 70s | 01:01 |
| Alcyius | It was officially discovered when he died a few years back | 01:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah but that happens all the time | 01:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | "wait, wasnt he already dead?" | 01:02 |
| Alcyius | Yup | 01:02 |
| Alcyius | But this was an epidemic | 01:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | WAIT | 01:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | THE BERENSTEIN EFFECT | 01:02 |
| Alcyius | http://mandelaeffect.com/major-memories | 01:02 |
| Alcyius | Yup | 01:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | THE FUCKING BERENSTEIN BEARS RIGHT | 01:03 |
| Alcyius | It's officially called The Berenstain Bears | 01:03 |
| * Diablo-D3 just fucking twitches | 01:03 | |
| Alcyius | But a large group of people, me included, remember it as The Berenstein Bears | 01:03 |
| Alcyius | So the question is | 01:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yes, how the fuck did that happen | 01:03 |
| Alcyius | Are our brains misfiring, or did a large group of people wake up one morning in an alternate reality where everything was the same except that one E was instead an A | 01:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | Theres other shit though | 01:04 |
| Alcyius | Uhuh | 01:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | like, why the fuck is my memory of the 80s | 01:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | so much more awesome | 01:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | than it was | 01:04 |
| Alcyius | I mean | 01:04 |
| Alcyius | Everyone's memory of the past is better than it was | 01:04 |
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| Alcyius | Idealized Past | 01:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, but theres like bits and pieces of stuff I can't quite remember | 01:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | its almost there, but not | 01:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | and I go to try to find it, and I never can | 01:04 |
| Alcyius | Well that's how the brain works iirc, you don't remember events themselves, you remember your memories of them | 01:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, but its weird as fuck | 01:05 |
| Alcyius | Yeah | 01:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | Because if memories are that lossy and vague, how the hell do humans even function | 01:05 |
| Alcyius | Poorly' | 01:06 |
| Alcyius | I mean | 01:06 |
| Alcyius | It could be worse | 01:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yet, we're having this conversation | 01:06 |
| Alcyius | Imagine being immortal with the same brain function we have right now | 01:06 |
| Alcyius | Every 200-300 years, you start forgetting everything | 01:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | That wouldn't even be the worst thing | 01:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | The problem is | 01:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | our brains fail | 01:06 |
| Alcyius | I mean yeah, but ideally you want a better way to store your memories | 01:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | so we literally Forget. | 01:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | with a capital F. | 01:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | And it starts happening in your mid to late 40s | 01:07 |
| Alcyius | and yet we put people on the moon and perform nuclear fusion | 01:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah | 01:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | Like, you know how we bitch about stories not being internally consistent? | 01:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | Reality isn't internally consistent | 01:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | And I find that statement very very odd, and I'm the one that wrote it | 01:08 |
| Alcyius | Reality is internally consistent | 01:08 |
| Alcyius | Our perception of it is not | 01:08 |
| Alcyius | This is almost exactly the conversation I had with my philosophy professor a month ago | 01:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, but if we cannot perceive reality, then what is reality but what we think it is? | 01:09 |
| Alcyius | Things happen. We're an emergent property of reality. Since we're just a part of the machine, we can't really perfectly perceive it | 01:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | Because I'm well aware how much wetware is dedicated to trying to make a coherent view of the outside world and how bad it is | 01:09 |
| Alcyius | That's shown by the concept of ineffability | 01:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | Well, thats another problem | 01:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | what the hell *is* the universe | 01:09 |
| Alcyius | If we COULD perfectly perceive reality, then ideas would move fluidly regardless of the language | 01:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | Like, that whole OH LOL ITS A HOLOGRAM bullshit? | 01:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | That'd actually solve a rather large number of issues | 01:10 |
| Alcyius | So would it just being a simulation | 01:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | It being a simulation explains so much shit | 01:11 |
| Alcyius | Like uncertainty and quantum mechanics | 01:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | Like lossy representations until we go start looking at them | 01:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | and its like LOD enhancement, but for universes | 01:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | And just all sorts of other weird un-sciencey things | 01:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | like people thinking there is more to us than what is scientifically here | 01:12 |
| Alcyius | I'm actually dealing with a similar problem | 01:13 |
| Alcyius | "You" is only a construct composed of the various systems of your body interacting with each other, many of them in open contention | 01:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | Like, wtf is a soul, why do all religions have a concept of it, and why is it a higher order representation of self, always? | 01:13 |
| Alcyius | Diablo-D3, that's actually easy to answer, the idea of a soul as a higher order self makes sense from where religions formed | 01:14 |
| Alcyius | Aka, short brutish worlds | 01:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, but all religions? | 01:14 |
| Alcyius | It's a survival mechanism | 01:14 |
| Alcyius | well, there's the possibility that all modern religions are derived from a prime religion | 01:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, but if that was true | 01:15 |
| Alcyius | Like written langauge, recent research shows that it was only invented from scratch about 3 times | 01:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | then its likely all languages come from an original language | 01:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | which I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that | 01:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | Alcyius: but its like, new age religions have pushed the soul into some sort of... souls wear the human existence like a hand wears a glove | 01:17 |
| Alcyius | also, a LOT of religions are derived from Plato's World of Being idea | 01:17 |
| Alcyius | Buddhism doesn't really have the concept of a soul, mostly cuz of the idea that everything's in flux and there's no persistent "I" or "You" | 01:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, buddhism is probably the correct answer if any of this is true | 01:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | you're you for as long as you're alive | 01:18 |
| Alcyius | But they don't deny that immaterial things exist | 01:18 |
| Alcyius | They just say that they aren't constant | 01:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | Which they probably aren't constant | 01:19 |
| Alcyius | To be honest, the idea of a soul is probably so persistent because of how are mind is structured | 01:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | but then you get into really weird shit, like jewish mysticism that says all human souls descend from the original soul of the pre-mortal Adam | 01:19 |
| Alcyius | Our brain works REALLY hard to give the illusion of a single, constant Self | 01:20 |
| Alcyius | When we're not a single, constant Self | 01:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | and that eventually we'll run out of fragments of Adam's soul, and then no more people will be born | 01:20 |
| Alcyius | We have dozens of different parts of our brain, some of which are in open contention, and then the rest of our body influencing our perception of self through the production of chemical and competition for attention from the brain | 01:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah | 01:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | And then | 01:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | The new age concept of "your subconscious is your body" | 01:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | Which isn't false in that sense | 01:21 |
| Alcyius | Remove any one thing and you start losing who you are | 01:21 |
| Alcyius | Which is really | 01:21 |
| Alcyius | Weird | 01:21 |
| Alcyius | Like, if we're going to move to computers | 01:21 |
| Alcyius | Are we going to physics simulate our entire body? | 01:21 |
| Alcyius | Or are we going to do that long enough to extrapolate thought patterns and such that make us who we are? | 01:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | Its because of how your brain builds a model of your body, and part of the wetware that makes your subconscious work is also part of the wetware that operates your body for you | 01:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, look at GITS | 01:22 |
| Alcyius | And if we just predict what we're going to think, are we even there? | 01:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | there are cyberbrains that have no organic material left | 01:23 |
| Alcyius | I mean, at the point we get there, there's probably going to be a constant virtual party/orgy and I'll stop asking those questions but | 01:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | and its all emulated in software | 01:23 |
| Alcyius | For now its interesting to ponder | 01:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | see, thats another problem | 01:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | theres that thought experiment that states, if we had a button to trigger feeling good | 01:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | we'd just hold it down all day | 01:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | and just starve to death and die | 01:23 |
| Alcyius | http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20131122.png | 01:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | well the thing is | 01:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, we generally won't | 01:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | some of us might, but they probably have a badly calibrated dopamine response or we | 01:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | *w/e | 01:25 |
| Alcyius | Enter the defense mechanism | 01:25 |
| Alcyius | Humans aren't objectively happy | 01:25 |
| Alcyius | We're happy in comparison to other people | 01:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | We're happy in comparison to the contrast of experiences | 01:25 |
| Alcyius | Here's the experiment | 01:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | "There is no light without shadow" | 01:25 |
| Alcyius | I am given $100 | 01:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | The problem is, for a lot of us, the universe loves to hold down the "feel like shit" trigger | 01:26 |
| Alcyius | I have to offer you an amount between $1 and $99 | 01:26 |
| Alcyius | If you accept my offer, we both get the money, if you reject it, neither of us gets any | 01:26 |
| Alcyius | Objectively, you should be happy with even $1 | 01:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | So the logical thing is to always offer $99 and always accept the offer | 01:26 |
| Alcyius | But subjectively, unless I offer you an equal or greater amount of money to what I'm getting, you'll reject it | 01:26 |
| Alcyius | Because you're only happy when you're doing as well or better than other people | 01:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, but thats not entirely true | 01:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | Because theres an entire subset of thought that happens in the inner universe that is disconnected from materialism | 01:27 |
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| Alcyius | We're hardwired to challenge ourselves, mostly as a way of advertising our fitness as mates | 01:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah | 01:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | and | 01:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | Thats just a very very very fucking clever thing | 01:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | Its one of the few legit things the "intelligent design" weirdos use, and Im okay with them using it | 01:32 |
| Alcyius | I mean, it's TRUE, it's just not intelligent | 01:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | You just have to sit back and just admire the cleverness of that | 01:32 |
| Alcyius | especially because of how crappy our reproduction is | 01:33 |
| Alcyius | But I digress | 01:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, and I'm kind of glad how crappy it is | 01:33 |
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| Diablo-D3 | Though makes you wonder, how the hell did our species survive long enough to get here? | 01:34 |
| Alcyius | Yeah | 01:34 |
| Alcyius | http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2273 | 01:34 |
| Alcyius | Though that might answer it | 01:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dunno, I've actually been writing somewhat weird fiction lately | 01:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | Taking all the parts I don't like, and gluing them together into one story | 01:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'm pretty sure if I ever finish it, clean it up, and publish it | 01:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'd be the richest author to ever live | 01:35 |
| Alcyius | Perhaps | 01:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | The fact of that is the only reason why I don't release it | 01:36 |
| Alcyius | Publish it, donate the proceeds to research in areas you like | 01:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, but then I just end up buying Mars | 01:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | like, the whole planet | 01:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | and just move there | 01:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | and never come back | 01:36 |
| Alcyius | I mean, the real estate's pretty cheap there | 01:37 |
| Alcyius | But the commute is terrible | 01:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | badumtish | 01:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | But yeah, its like | 01:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | everything I ever hated about scifi | 01:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | crammed into one novel | 01:38 |
| Alcyius | I mean you'll either be rich or no one will buy it | 01:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | or both | 01:38 |
| Alcyius | It's the Ancestor proposition | 01:38 |
| Alcyius | You'll either become the ancestor to all living things or none of them, given enough time | 01:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | So, the story is about a dude | 01:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | That is bill gates rich | 01:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | But is basically fed up with how fucking stupid a lot of shit is | 01:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | So he just purchases space exploration | 01:39 |
| Alcyius | That reminds me of Donald Trump saying that we need to talk to Gates so we can close up the internet | 01:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, and trump flubbed that so bad, he should have said al gore | 01:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | then it would have been funny | 01:40 |
| Alcyius | He also said that we have 6 million people over 112 getting social security | 01:40 |
| Alcyius | Which, while TECHNICALLY true, it isn't really because they're just on the record as being dead | 01:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | hah | 01:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | but yeah, so | 01:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | this dude, ends up being like "we just invented a FTL test vehicle, and we're doing human trials, and I'm doing it" | 01:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | And everyone is like "no, you're not doing it, you have too many responsibilites yadda yadda yadda" | 01:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | And he does it | 01:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | And the vehicle fails | 01:41 |
| Alcyius | This sounds a lot like Big Hero 6 | 01:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | Ive never seen it, but I heard it was good | 01:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | and I thought it was about some kid that made a giant white robot? | 01:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | that hugs people | 01:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | (yes, seriously, thats pretty much all I know about it) | 01:43 |
| Alcyius | go watch it | 01:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | I will when it finally gets on netflix | 01:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | its disney, so it'll make it there | 01:43 |
| Alcyius | I mean, you could just go to pirate bay | 01:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | meh, too much effort | 01:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | and why should I be forced to pirate things, I pay for netflix | 01:43 |
| Alcyius | The only reason copyright has any place after all is because innovation needs profit motivation in a capitalist society | 01:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | I literally pay them to do the "pirating" for me | 01:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | it was fun and interesting and ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH when I was a kid | 01:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | as an adult, Im just too damned lazy | 01:44 |
| Alcyius | I mean, I pirate as a necessity | 01:44 |
| Alcyius | I'm broke as fuck | 01:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | heh | 01:44 |
| Alcyius | and I'll end up buying it EVENTUALLY | 01:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | so anyhow | 01:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | the vehicle fails | 01:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | instead of dropping out of wtfspace at mars, where hes supposed to dock with some superhuge science research vessel that is basically a catcher's mitt of sorts | 01:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | he just keeps going | 01:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | and going | 01:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | and going | 01:45 |
| Alcyius | and then he dies alone in the void of space? | 01:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | the power reactor ftl engine whatever the hell | 01:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | is falling apart | 01:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | and hes slowly being irradiated | 01:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | and even if they do get him back, he's going to be rather cooked. | 01:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | so, eventually, the reactor powering the engine fails, he drops out of wtfspace | 01:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | and right before he dies, he sees something that should not be: a rather goddamned massive space fleet of ships that sure as hell aren't his | 01:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | and they were waiting for him | 01:48 |
| Alcyius | Oh did humanity get to the point where they just went to where he would be | 01:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | nope | 01:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | aliens. | 01:48 |
| Alcyius | Oh | 01:48 |
| Alcyius | Do they invade earth? | 01:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | I actually toyed around with your idea for a bit | 01:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | tried to put him in a slow warp | 01:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | and then made an entire religion around him | 01:48 |
| Alcyius | I'd suggest going both routes | 01:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | and then eventually catch up with him and hes like a God | 01:49 |
| Alcyius | They're humans, but advanced to the point where they're completely alien | 01:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, I went the other direction | 01:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | humans dont exist | 01:49 |
| Alcyius | they died out? | 01:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | or rather, its the most optimal form of life | 01:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | and it tends to pop up everywhere for no apparent reason until after the half way point of the book | 01:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | spoiler: the universe was created by "God", and the universe self-seeds itself to produce very specific forms of life | 01:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | No one understands how or why, because that is literally impossible | 01:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | And I'm not kidding, all planets are extremely earth like | 01:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | a lot of species are extremely familiar, just not quiiiite the same | 01:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | and humans from different planets are somehow genetically compatible; also, everything uses genetics | 01:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | (and I wasnt kidding, all the stuff Ive ever hated, all crammed into one novel) | 01:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | and captain dumbass that died flying the ftl sled into the great beyond? | 01:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | He doesn't get to die quite yet. | 01:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | That would be too easy. | 01:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | No, comes to find out, hes effectively Real Jesus. | 01:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | Every time they discover a new planet, the first guy they always encounter is a reincarnation of the same guy | 01:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | and he always ends up dying | 01:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | and being brought back | 01:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | and when they do, he starts remembering past lives | 01:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | and _that_ is the religion of the rest of the universe. | 01:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, the rest of however big this shit goes | 01:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | But they only ever encounter him periodically | 01:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | Since finding inhabited worlds are rare | 01:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | The church has nuns. | 01:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | The nuns? All clones of the same woman. | 01:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | An artificial project of sorts to keep track of this guy over the hundreds of thousands or whatever years they've known about him | 01:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | Every fleet has a "church", every church has one of the clones awake and operating at any given time. | 01:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | She has no official rank in the fleet, yet anything she says is done | 01:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | (thus setting up political drama if I so wish to further bury this novel in stupdity) | 01:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | The fun part is, the clones all form part of a collective, piggy backing on whatever allows the dude to do his thing | 02:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | to keep getting reincarnated or w/e | 02:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | So, killing one of the sisters isn't a useful strategy, and they collectively know everything every other sister knows or has known | 02:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | And it isn't limited to the speed of light | 02:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | Because whatever makes it function is outside of the universe and accessible from all points inside of the universe | 02:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | And that entire project? Was started by the dude in a previous reincarnation | 02:01 |
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| Diablo-D3 | And they've never been able to replicate how it works | 02:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | Alcyius: I wasnt kidding when I said | 02:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | it was bad | 02:02 |
| Alcyius | yeah | 02:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | Every time I find an idea I hate, it goes in | 02:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | The thing is, he's not super human, not in any useful sense | 02:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | He's not smarter, or faster, or anything | 02:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | He just keeps being reincarnated, but the time between reincarnations is pretty long | 02:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | And theres no evidence anyone else is reincarnated, just him | 02:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | And certain things keep working the same way | 02:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | Like, how computers are designed | 02:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | Are always designed pretty similarly | 02:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | And religions are all pretty compatible | 02:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | And how food works, pretty similar | 02:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | And language as well | 02:05 |
| Alcyius | Plot twist: he's the only actual living thing, he's inside a simulation and everything is similar to cut down on world generation costs | 02:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, this is what I was considering | 02:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | but I was going to expand that to the fact he's basically God | 02:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | and the simulation just keeps leaking through bits of his real world | 02:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | So, like, you know how in our world, theres been more than one Jesus figure? | 02:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | like, Mithras and so forth? | 02:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | Its all him | 02:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | He keeps being reincarnated as figures like that | 02:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | Teaching the same things over and over again | 02:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | Shaping society the same way over and over | 02:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | And when he finally dies the last time on that plant, when that planet joins all the others | 02:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | he just vanishes for awhile being Jesus on another planet | 02:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | or at least, isn't reincarnated as a jesus figure on that planet ever again | 02:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | the story opens up with him giving a speech to all of Earth | 02:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | after having returned with the space fleet that picked him up | 02:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | not telling anyone that hes still alive, being a sucker for "the big reveal", as he puts it | 02:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | assassination attempt happens about three sentences in | 02:13 |
| Alcyius | heh | 02:13 |
| Alcyius | Also | 02:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | fails because he just catches the bullet... not because hes super human, but because hes wearing a rather impressive suit of armor and it basically reacted before he was even aware of the problem | 02:13 |
| Alcyius | AU where Ahab captured Moby Dick and had sex with it instead of killing it | 02:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | what the hell man | 02:14 |
| Alcyius | I mean, we're on the topic of bad ideas :P | 02:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, like, the whole thing of adam and eve? | 02:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | completely true | 02:14 |
| Alcyius | Your novel sounds like something I'd never read, if only because it makes me cringe too much | 02:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | adam, jesus, all the characters, same guy | 02:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | the sister collective? all clones of one of the eve's | 02:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | and she never actually dies and is reincarnated | 02:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | and shes aware of who she is, and was ordered, by him, never to reveal it to him | 02:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | and basically runs this massive empire of planets in the background | 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | she just makes sure it continues existing, and literally doesn't care about anything that doesn't happen over hundreds or thousands of years | 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | Alcyius: but yeah | 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats the point | 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | its supposed to be very very bad | 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im literally terrified of ever letting anyone read it | 02:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | because if that escapes somehow on to the internet | 02:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | it will cause the end of human society | 02:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | you'll have people saying they think its the best writing ever, because they're idiots | 02:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | (see twilight and 50 shades fans) | 02:17 |
| Alcyius | Diablo-D3, if a single novel could end the world | 02:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | and then the rest of us that aren't mentally disabled. | 02:18 |
| Alcyius | Scientologists would literally be in charge | 02:18 |
| Alcyius | Instead of mostly in charge | 02:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | hah | 02:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | btw, the assassin? | 02:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | works for the vatican. | 02:18 |
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| Diablo-D3 | Alcyius: so, it gets even better | 02:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | he has to do his thing, but he cant stay alive for too long | 02:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | the fleet can keep him alive almost indefinitely if they needed to | 02:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | but the longer hes alive once he'd "woken up", the more he starts remembering | 02:21 |
| Alcyius | I can feel my brain cells dying | 02:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | I know, isnt it wonderful? | 02:23 |
| Alcyius | No | 02:23 |
| Alcyius | I could get a better experience from heroin | 02:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | But yeah, its basically, if he remembers everything | 02:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | he'll wake up, for real | 02:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | I have no clue what'll happen if that happens | 02:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | because I didnt write that far | 02:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | but the only rightful thing is, if the dreamer awakens, the dream vanishes | 02:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | and the universe literally exists to keep him asleep | 02:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | but yeah, I dont even know why Im writing it | 02:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | its horrrrrrible | 02:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | its literally the worst fiction ever | 02:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | its so hamfisted its baaaaaad | 02:26 |
| Alcyius | Since most devils are actually angels fallen from Heaven, they don't really have a good sense of how to torture. | 02:30 |
| Alcyius | "My banana split doesn't have enough whipped cream." | 02:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | Alcyius: oh btw | 02:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | I considered giving him a devil | 02:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | The Master of sorts | 02:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | that exists just to throw a wrench into the works | 02:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | but that is just _too_ easy | 02:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | that fruit is too low hanging | 02:31 |
| Alcyius | "Oh my god, you both look exactly the same, I don't know who to shoot!" | 02:34 |
| Alcyius | (Silently, we both wondered who the hell she was) | 02:34 |
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| Alcyius | "NASA is confused to announce that we've found life on Mars, but its just Elon Musk, somehow." | 04:15 |
| ebowden | heh | 04:19 |
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| * fenn grumps | 06:02 | |
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| Alcyius | Hm. Odd | 06:02 |
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| chris_99 | Does anyone here do computer vision per chance, i'm trying to find an idiots guide to triangulation of 2D points from N-views, opencv's cv2.triangulatePoints seems to only take two camera poses | 06:04 |
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| @fenn | maaku> in other words, something like 40% of global GDP ... gone ... and replace with math on computers, redirecting that money elsewhere, and remove the parasitic financial structure that transfers wealth from the productive to the establishment | 07:27 |
| @fenn | maaku could you expand on how you see this happening in the present and future? | 07:27 |
| xentrac | iirc he was talking about Economics 2.0; I'm also interested to hear if he has a more detailed vision | 07:28 |
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| kanzure | .title https://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6266/1332.full | 07:43 |
| yoleaux | Human-level concept learning through probabilistic program induction | 07:43 |
| @fenn | that was from a few days ago | 07:47 |
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| JayDugger | Also on Gitixiv, IIRC | 07:54 |
| poppingtonic | That paper is really good. I've been studying their group's (MIT probabilistic computing project) progress since last year. I'm following up on their code later this evening. | 07:54 |
| @fenn | JayDugger: gitixiv? | 07:56 |
| JayDugger | I don't know enough Matlab to follow it, but the section on hardware requirements impressed me. | 07:56 |
| poppingtonic | .title http://gitxiv.com/ | 07:56 |
| yoleaux | Loading... | 07:56 |
| @fenn | meteor bullshit | 07:57 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, a website / mailing list for CompSci papers from arxiv with source on Github. | 07:57 |
| poppingtonic | whaaat | 07:57 |
| JayDugger | http://gitxiv.com/posts/jS9LJ5kh9ny6iqD7Z/human-level-concept-learning-through-probabilistic-program | 07:57 |
| JayDugger | That's the one in question. | 07:58 |
| @fenn | well i'm not going to be using gitxiv because it's completely devoid of any content without running lots of javascript | 07:58 |
| JayDugger | Hang on, cat is chasing the mouse cursor on screen. | 07:58 |
| JayDugger | I think you can sign up for a mailing list version of their feed. | 07:59 |
| poppingtonic | arxiv is the only xiv | 07:59 |
| JayDugger | Best SF on-line, you bet. | 07:59 |
| poppingtonic | And use it to create a non-js version of gitxiv. | 08:00 |
| Alcyius | Anyone here know of any writing done on the role of infrastructure in Transhumanism | 08:03 |
| Alcyius | Like arcologies and stuff | 08:04 |
| xentrac | if not, it seems like a rather glaring lack; infrastructure is the key enabling feature of modern life, much more than education or exercise | 08:07 |
| @fenn | i liked the book "ventus" by karl schroeder | 08:08 |
| @fenn | also buckminster fuller and walt disney wrote a lot about infrastructure and futristic societies | 08:09 |
| @fenn | fuller's books can be a task to decipher | 08:10 |
| @fenn | the dymaxion stuff from the 1930s is the most approachable though | 08:10 |
| Alcyius | Wasn't EPCOT supposed to be an evolving planned community showcasing futuristic infrastructure? | 08:11 |
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| @fenn | there's also orion's arm, which has a list of fictional megastructures and societies http://www.orionsarm.com/page/301 | 08:11 |
| @fenn | EPCOT was supposed to be an actual city, not a museum exhibit | 08:12 |
| Alcyius | Yeah | 08:12 |
| JayDugger | Fuller's pre-transhumanist, though a definite influence. I read most of his stuff in high school. | 08:12 |
| @fenn | after disney died the managers scaled back the vision considerably | 08:12 |
| JayDugger | Paolo Soleri (sp?), who coined "arcology," if you can find his books. | 08:13 |
| Alcyius | JayDugger, I wish I had the time to read stuff | 08:13 |
| JayDugger | Try a college library. | 08:13 |
| Alcyius | I'm in an Early College high school | 08:13 |
| Alcyius | So lots of free education, little time | 08:13 |
| JayDugger | If you're near Portland, OR, try Reed College. | 08:13 |
| JayDugger | Their library has copies. | 08:13 |
| JayDugger | If not, try inter-library loan. | 08:13 |
| Alcyius | My university's library has or can get copies, and I'd be surprised if I couldn't find an online copy | 08:13 |
| JayDugger | I'd be surprised if you could. | 08:14 |
| JayDugger | I've looked. | 08:14 |
| jcluck | which titles are you looking for? | 08:14 |
| Alcyius | JayDugger, I have some friends with access to a private torrent site that focuses on books and has digital copies of some rarer books | 08:14 |
| JayDugger | Fuller's complete papers are held by Stanford, including his chronofile (what we'd call a lifelog now) | 08:14 |
| JayDugger | Ah...well...perhaps you can. | 08:14 |
| JayDugger | I stand corrected. | 08:15 |
| JayDugger | You might also find Dandrige Cole's work useful. | 08:15 |
| JayDugger | That's also hard to find, but again your university library can probably get copies. | 08:16 |
| Alcyius | Yeah | 08:16 |
| JayDugger | His stuff predates "transhumanism," but is pretty openly so. | 08:16 |
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| @fenn | i also recommend the manga "blame!" which is about having too much infrastructure | 08:16 |
| Alcyius | fenn, is that the one with like, the solar system sized city? | 08:16 |
| @fenn | yeah | 08:16 |
| Alcyius | I've heard good stuff about it | 08:17 |
| Alcyius | Had forgotten the name though | 08:17 |
| JayDugger | Yes, And if you can't make sense of it, try Knights of Sidonia, aka "Hodgson's The Night Land on a generation starship." | 08:17 |
| Alcyius | Isn't that the one Netflix made? | 08:17 |
| Alcyius | I've also heard good things about that, but my ex didn't want to watch it and I just kinda never had the time to since bringing it up | 08:17 |
| @fenn | sidonia actually is a prequel to blame, their ship is where toha heavy industries came from | 08:18 |
| Alcyius | Interesting | 08:18 |
| JayDugger | Man, fenn, there was another anime I was going to ask if you'd seen, but it escapes me ATM. | 08:18 |
| Alcyius | As much as I love investment in infrastructure | 08:19 |
| Alcyius | The work on the gas lines on my street has been ongoing for over a month | 08:19 |
| Alcyius | And is shaking the attic | 08:19 |
| kanzure | sidonia was sorta boring | 08:19 |
| @fenn | yeah it was his attempt to be mainstream and formulaic | 08:19 |
| @fenn | success :( | 08:19 |
| kanzure | their reveals were weak though. | 08:19 |
| JayDugger | Easy, the man's got bills to pay. | 08:20 |
| kanzure | you think the story has built up to some awesome reveal but instead it's just more formulaic garbage following the already established story | 08:20 |
| JayDugger | There are worse ways to sell out than to write something with a plot. | 08:20 |
| JayDugger | But yeah, it did weaken as it went along. | 08:20 |
| Alcyius | Are there any works without a plot? | 08:20 |
| @fenn | the original aeon flux animated shorts | 08:20 |
| Alcyius | I mean, plot kinda happens whenever you have connected events | 08:20 |
| Alcyius | I mean, the shorts themselves had plots didn't they? | 08:21 |
| @fenn | well, sort of | 08:21 |
| Alcyius | There wasn't an overarching one | 08:21 |
| JayDugger | Blame! had a rather vague plot. | 08:21 |
| Alcyius | also, I need to finish watching the Metropolis anime movie | 08:21 |
| kanzure | also there's the hplusroadmap manga | 08:21 |
| JayDugger | Huh? | 08:22 |
| @fenn | that feeling you get sometimes that you're living in a science fiction story, it's real! | 08:22 |
| kanzure | it's true. | 08:22 |
| JayDugger | I skipped my anti-senility pills today, and so am missing that joke. | 08:22 |
| kanzure | but yeah, i think an hplusroadmap manga should happen, although i will readily admit i don't have much of that project figured out at the moment..... | 08:22 |
| Alcyius | I need to watch Texhnolyze | 08:23 |
| Alcyius | thanks for reminding me | 08:23 |
| @fenn | no, you don't. texhnolyze is totally skippable | 08:23 |
| @fenn | spolier: they turn all the humans into unfeeling robots | 08:23 |
| @fenn | the end | 08:23 |
| Alcyius | I fail to see how this is a bad thing /s | 08:23 |
| Alcyius | Also, if anyone was looking for non-standard prosthetics | 08:24 |
| Alcyius | http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/24/prosthetic-tentacle_n_3330298.html | 08:24 |
| JayDugger | Seen "Now and Then, Here and There"? | 08:24 |
| Alcyius | Haven't even heard of it | 08:25 |
| @fenn | me either | 08:25 |
| JayDugger | Well shit. | 08:25 |
| kanzure | hplusroadmap manga suffers from a lack of plot at the moment. but the world building beats mostly everything. | 08:25 |
| Alcyius | Also, what are your thoughts on Psycho Pass | 08:26 |
| JayDugger | That's no help for a review--but kanzure's pitch is awesome. | 08:26 |
| kanzure | maybe it should be a manga novelization of nsh's alleged federal reserve hacking | 08:27 |
| cluckj | I'd probably read that | 08:27 |
| @fenn | and NASA, can't forget that | 08:27 |
| JayDugger | I think my niece watched that. | 08:27 |
| kanzure | ah yes, nasa too, indeed | 08:27 |
| Alcyius | Also, thoughts on Dresden Coak? | 08:27 |
| Alcyius | *Codak | 08:27 |
| JayDugger | Not a fan, but dislike most webcomics. | 08:27 |
| kanzure | the manga could be about "science liberation front". that could be fun. | 08:28 |
| @fenn | dresden codak is somewhat unique in having a positively portrayed cyborg character | 08:28 |
| @fenn | it's kinda rambly but that's okay | 08:29 |
| Alcyius | I just love the whole "I want to cut off my entire body and replace it with a better one" | 08:29 |
| @fenn | that's not how it happened though, she was hit with a giant laser beam | 08:29 |
| kanzure | well if you enjoy shit that panders to you, Alcyius would enjoy anything by charlie stross | 08:29 |
| @fenn | which burned off half her body and part of her brain | 08:29 |
| Alcyius | I mean yeah, but she had been planning it for a while at that point | 08:29 |
| @fenn | but what kind of example would that set for the children? :P | 08:30 |
| kanzure | i guess the manga would have to be hard scifi only | 08:30 |
| @fenn | it's bad enough with lepht's idiocy | 08:30 |
| kanzure | no "monks knocking sense into people by punching just right" | 08:31 |
| kanzure | maybe elon musk stuff. | 08:32 |
| JayDugger | Umm...example set by Stross...how about "steal ideas from better writers?" | 08:36 |
| Alcyius | lol | 08:36 |
| @fenn | steal ideas from usenet and old mailing lists | 08:36 |
| JayDugger | In fairness to Stross, also worked for Rowling and Orson Scott Card. | 08:37 |
| kanzure | i get v. disappointed with typical stereotypes unfortunately | 08:37 |
| JayDugger | I was thinking Moorcock, Lovecraft, Zellazny, Leighton, and Fleming in Stross's case. | 08:37 |
| kanzure | like sure we could do an "fbi special agent in the weapons of mass destruction division" teams up with "unruly biohacker" but then i feel bad about myself | 08:37 |
| Alcyius | kanzure, do it as a set of "in the life" stories about near-future transhumanists | 08:37 |
| JayDugger | Isn't that Vinge's "Rainbows End?" | 08:38 |
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| kanzure | Alcyius: "some people make some nootropics, keep to themselves, and then achieve their goals on their own terms" is not much of a story | 08:39 |
| JayDugger | Nonsense, that's Microcosmic God. | 08:39 |
| JayDugger | Also Odd John. | 08:40 |
| Alcyius | Could go "Glimpses in the Life" of an unnamed figure who makes a major advance | 08:40 |
| Alcyius | Always have their face obscured | 08:40 |
| Alcyius | That could be interesting | 08:40 |
| Alcyius | Main character that you never really see | 08:40 |
| Alcyius | You only see the results of their actions | 08:40 |
| kanzure | satoshi? ok | 08:41 |
| Alcyius | the bitcoin guy? | 08:41 |
| Alcyius | That could actually be interesting | 08:41 |
| Alcyius | 6 chapter manga about them | 08:41 |
| Alcyius | Always facing away | 08:41 |
| Alcyius | Or their face is obscured | 08:41 |
| kanzure | unfortunately that would eliminate the possibility of the character being an ai, and i'm not sure i would want to do that. | 08:42 |
| Alcyius | I mean | 08:42 |
| @fenn | objection disqualified for lameness | 08:42 |
| Alcyius | Same concept, but with the hypothetical, near future creator of the first AI | 08:42 |
| Alcyius | 6 chapters, Childhood, College, Breakthrough, Disappearance, Results, "Death" | 08:43 |
| @fenn | there are too many books already, why would you want to write another one? | 08:43 |
| kanzure | because most of them are boring and make me frustrated? | 08:44 |
| kanzure | good scifi is compressed idea transfer and syncing | 08:44 |
| Alcyius | on that note | 08:44 |
| Alcyius | Mass Effect is surprisingly hard sci fi | 08:44 |
| @fenn | it has good industrial design, the physics is consistent | 08:45 |
| @fenn | but the story is kinda bland | 08:46 |
| Alcyius | I liked that the explanation for all the "dungeons" being the same in 1 was that they were all prefabs | 08:46 |
| Alcyius | I dislike that I'd have to pay more than I got the 3 games for the DLC | 08:48 |
| @fenn | i'd like to see a mass effect game from the point of view of the geth | 08:49 |
| Alcyius | Can the SynthesisEnding!Geth still move bodies? | 08:52 |
| Alcyius | Also, look at Grey Goo | 08:53 |
| Alcyius | the game | 08:53 |
| xentrac | fenn: I don't think of fuller and disney as transhumanists, although as JayDugger says, Fuller clearly is an inspiration to transhumanism | 08:54 |
| xentrac | transmetropolitan touches on a lot of transhumanism themes, but the infrastructure in it is just scenery as far as I can tell | 08:57 |
| @fenn | well it's hard to discern a difference between "optimistic futurists" and "transhumanists" | 08:57 |
| xentrac | but it's fiction also | 08:57 |
| @fenn | too much grunge for my taste | 08:58 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | it's not amazing, but warframe is a mix of hard scifi and, well, magic | 08:58 |
| @fenn | 'he and his "filthy assistants" strive to keep their world from turning more dystopian than it already is' | 08:58 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | it's very 40k in that way | 08:58 |
| xentrac | I haven't read everything Fuller wrote, but I haven't come across anything where he's talking about enhancing human biology internally, or uploading, or even Engelbartian mental augmentation really | 08:59 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | every other enemy in warframe is augmented, and the player character is a posthuman lifeform | 09:00 |
| xentrac | there seems to be a pretty deep split between (nonfiction) futurists who explore personal apotheosis and those that explore infrastructure, which is pretty strange when you think about it | 09:00 |
| Alcyius | Aurelius_Work2, I tried playing Warframe, but I just didn't | 09:01 |
| Alcyius | It was eh | 09:01 |
| @fenn | Aurelius_Work2: yeah i see what you mean 40k-like, reminds me of eldar vs imperium | 09:01 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | eh, it's a very specific type of game | 09:01 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | it's gotten better though | 09:01 |
| Alcyius | I was trying to play it stealth | 09:01 |
| Alcyius | And the stealth in it was | 09:01 |
| Alcyius | Very meh | 09:01 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | fenn : and the Corpus as Tau | 09:01 |
| Alcyius | And I didn't like all the microtransactions | 09:01 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | Alcyius : stealth has gotten much better, microtransactions are mostly cosmetic/convenience, but it will always be a game about maxing out your murderhobo ness | 09:01 |
| Alcyius | I might reinstall it | 09:02 |
| Alcyius | It was really poorly optimized when I played it too | 09:02 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | yeah, I came back to it for the first time in two years | 09:02 |
| Alcyius | Though I have a GTX980 instead of a GTX560m now | 09:02 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | last week | 09:02 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | I had gotten bored | 09:02 |
| Alcyius | anyone play GW2? | 09:04 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | I used to, but my issues with that game are...endless | 09:04 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | (with Arenanet in general) | 09:04 |
| Alcyius | Eh | 09:04 |
| Alcyius | I have a lot of friends in the game | 09:04 |
| Alcyius | And I enjoy my asura engineer way too much | 09:04 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | I have like 600 hours in the game, don't get me wrong--it was just from the first 8 months after launch | 09:05 |
| Alcyius | I have | 09:05 |
| Alcyius | 1600 hours | 09:05 |
| Alcyius | But I bought the collector's edition | 09:06 |
| Alcyius | Played for 50 hours | 09:06 |
| Alcyius | Then came back to it 2 years later | 09:06 |
| Alcyius | It was a lot better | 09:06 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | I'm amused you dislike Warframe's microtransactions but mind Arenanet's less | 09:08 |
| Alcyius | 95% of arenanet's are purely cosmetic | 09:08 |
| Alcyius | When I first played Warframe, a lot of "classes" and weapons were bought | 09:09 |
| JayDugger | Good night, everyone. | 09:09 |
| Alcyius | night | 09:09 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | you can buy classes and weapons for convenience, or play the game to get them | 09:09 |
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| Alcyius | I forgot how much I loved Hellboy | 09:16 |
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| nmz787_i | Alcyius: I had to drop calc 2 a few times, and didnt end up passing until i took it alone, as my only course that semester/quarter | 09:28 |
| nmz787_i | I guess 'term' is the more generic term | 09:28 |
| Alcyius | nmz787_i, that was my experience in Calc 1 | 09:28 |
| Alcyius | I had to retake it over the summer | 09:28 |
| Alcyius | I shouldn't have taken this in a regular semester tbh | 09:30 |
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| nmz787_i | and I thinkthe averages in my organic classes were around the C grade level | 09:34 |
| nmz787_i | except for the upper level classes that had more application in them | 09:35 |
| Alcyius | I'm just hoping I get a 56.1% | 09:35 |
| Alcyius | Enough to pass with a D- | 09:35 |
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| Alcyius | One of my favorite bands is Ayreon, and its a shame, the music is so good, but I hate that it's so anti-technology | 10:05 |
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| nmz787_i | meaning they don't record themselves, and only perform acapella? | 10:10 |
| Alcyius | nmz787_i, no, ayreaon is a prog rock project by a single guy | 10:10 |
| Alcyius | The music is really good | 10:10 |
| Alcyius | But the albums tell an overarching story of a race who destroyed their emotions by becoming dependent on machines | 10:11 |
| Alcyius | Who created mankind, then tried to warn them of their imminent destruction due to their overreliance on technology | 10:11 |
| Alcyius | All in all leaves a really bad taste in my mouth | 10:11 |
| Alcyius | One of my other favorite bands is Van Canto, which is metal a cappella, but their music isn't preachy so | 10:12 |
| kanzure | ayreon master of darkness is one of the first few songs i remember finding on my own | 10:16 |
| Alcyius | I've listened to the entire discography | 10:18 |
| Alcyius | God Kroenen is creepy | 10:33 |
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| FourFire | Alcyius, remember, if you aren't trying to say something, use needlessly long, complicated sounding words: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=2295 | 12:59 |
| Alcyius | lol | 13:00 |
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| kanzure | re: brain uploading. modularization of the brain can be increased by selection for loss-of-function lesion sites (e.g. select for greater loss of function of some component or behavior when always cutting at a specific location, and select against non-loss). next you also need to select for lower connectivity between modules, and also that the connections htemselves between modules are pushed to the surface of the brain for easy ... | 14:06 |
| kanzure | ... debugging at both input and output. | 14:06 |
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| nmz787_i1 | kanzure: just in time for the holidays, even with a paint job to go with the season http://www.go-dove.com/en/auction/view?id=9966143 | 14:20 |
| nmz787_i1 | .title | 14:20 |
| yoleaux | Kuka KR 360-2 Industrial Material Handling Robot, 6-Axis, Floor Type, Load 360 Kg, Range 2826 MM, Weight 2385 Kg includi | GoIndustry DoveBid | 14:20 |
| nmz787_i1 | (located somewhere around my neighborhood) | 14:20 |
| @fenn | what do you ask robo-santa for christmas | 14:30 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o fenn] by fenn | 14:30 | |
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| erasmus | openbci ganglion board with bioera and a larger 3D printer to make a helmet for dry sensors. | 14:39 |
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| kanzure | expecting the visual appearance of the brain to program a computer to behave like that brain, is probably not a good expectation re: actual physical brain scanning. | 14:45 |
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| bjonnh | erasmus: what about the openeeg things? | 14:47 |
| erasmus | I want ICA and LORETA in WinEEG | 14:47 |
| erasmus | but I think I'd need a Mitsar amp | 14:48 |
| bjonnh | that's too advanced for me | 14:49 |
| erasmus | only reason I want the OpenBCI board is that it's $99 | 14:50 |
| erasmus | or it will be | 14:50 |
| bjonnh | yeah but I'm worried about the quality of signals | 14:50 |
| bjonnh | separation between channels and so on | 14:51 |
| erasmus | http://bioera.net/manual.html#supported_devices | 14:52 |
| erasmus | well Bioera wouldn't support it if it wasn't tested. | 14:52 |
| erasmus | how exciting to be able to train on a $99 AMP | 14:53 |
| erasmus | but we still have to wait like 6 months | 14:53 |
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| erasmus | justanotheruser I want to join politics for the debate tonight. | 15:30 |
| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10736857 | 15:31 |
| yoleaux | Show HN: Recreate NASA's Apollo Space Beeps (Quindar Tones) with Web Audio | Hacker News | 15:31 |
| justanotheruser | erasmus: /msg alis list politics | 15:31 |
| bjonnh | erasmus: debate? | 15:33 |
| erasmus | yeah last GOP debate of the year. | 15:33 |
| bjonnh | oh | 15:33 |
| erasmus | will prolly start around 7EST | 15:33 |
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| bjonnh | they should give them RPGs and an open field | 15:33 |
| erasmus | justanotheruser has ops in #politics | 15:33 |
| erasmus | but he can't get over his butthurt. | 15:34 |
| kanzure | this is off-topic | 15:34 |
| erasmus | sorry kanzure | 15:34 |
| fenn | also i banned you, why/how are you back? | 15:34 |
| bjonnh | can we list bans? | 15:35 |
| justanotheruser | bjonnh: /quote mode ##hplusroadmap +b | 15:36 |
| fenn | in irssi you just type /ban and it shows a list | 15:36 |
| bjonnh | justanotheruser: yeah I just found that on freenode help, thanks | 15:36 |
| bjonnh | fenn: oh weechat does the same | 15:36 |
| fenn | anyway obviously the username changed but it's skirting the spirit of the ban :P | 15:37 |
| kanzure | other approach for brain uploading is to randomly eliminate different ways for the brain to vary (remove number of neurotransmitters, receptors, etc) while maintaining existing functionality, such that the number of weird things to analyze goes down | 15:41 |
| fenn | somehow i doubt your attempts to evolve a simpler organism will succeed | 15:43 |
| fenn | evolution always takes the side way out | 15:43 |
| kanzure | what do you mean, complexity is going to get magically pushed into some other unmeasured direction? | 15:43 |
| fenn | yeah | 15:43 |
| kanzure | caught you agreeing with magic, you lose | 15:44 |
| kanzure | .. or something. is that how this works? | 15:44 |
| fenn | mumble mumble complexity emergence | 15:44 |
| fenn | i'm not one of those santa fe institute people so i don't know all the lingo | 15:44 |
| kanzure | i think a stronger argument for you to make would be something like, "selecting for simplicity is going to give poor behavior results", which is much easier to agree with than "some other complexity is going to happen to replace the one you were looking at". | 15:45 |
| kanzure | however, brains have not been selecting for complexity or simplicity (especially from a human analysis perspective), so it would make sense for there to be room to cull certain aspects without impacting behavior completely. | 15:45 |
| kanzure | *brains have not been selected for | 15:45 |
| fenn | well i'm not certain at all that brain complexity is required for complex behavior | 15:46 |
| fenn | but i've never seen evolution produce a simple expected outcome | 15:47 |
| kanzure | what i really want is to use octopus chromatophores to report on signalling between different modules in octopus brain matter. but this is not going to happen. | 15:48 |
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| fenn | you could use transparent zebrafish larvae and luminescent/fluorescent reporter proteins | 15:48 |
| fenn | that's already been done | 15:49 |
| kanzure | yeah most of what i am thinking about re: brain uploading is more like.. something like cat, dog or chimp brain. | 15:49 |
| fenn | do we have NIR modulating proteins? | 15:49 |
| kanzure | there was an infrared gfp i think | 15:50 |
| fenn | .title http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v7/n10/full/nmeth.1501.html | 15:50 |
| yoleaux | Near-infrared fluorescent proteins : Nature Methods : Nature Publishing Group | 15:50 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v29/n8/full/nbt.1918.html | 15:50 |
| yoleaux | Bright and stable near-infrared fluorescent protein for in vivo imaging : Nature Biotechnology : Nature Publishing Group | 15:50 |
| kanzure | bah | 15:50 |
| kanzure | oh they are different | 15:50 |
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| docl | Alcyius: You might be able to meet your calculus course requirements by passing AP Calculus BC with high enough marks. (You need a score of 4+ to get all three classes worth according to my local community college website.) | 15:51 |
| kanzure | we really need some flat-headed flat-brained animals | 15:51 |
| fenn | kitten in a bottle | 15:52 |
| kanzure | docl: don't encourage people to go to college, what's wrong with you | 15:52 |
| fenn | kanzure if the alternative is high school it makes sense to skip straight to college | 15:52 |
| kanzure | don't let parents bully you into high school vs college | 15:52 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk turned out to be a perfectly fine gun nut | 15:53 |
| jrayhawk | i am unable to personally recreate the scene from Tremors, ergo i am not adequate | 15:53 |
| kanzure | why a bottle? | 15:53 |
| fenn | .g kitten in a bottle | 15:54 |
| yoleaux | http://ding.net/bonsaikitten/ | 15:54 |
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| kanzure | hmm i am not sure if this is helpful | 15:54 |
| fenn | "By physically constraining the growth of a developing living thing, it can be directed to take the shape of the vessel that constrains it. Both foot-binding and head-binding were practiced in the Far East, for the purpose of miniaturizing the feet and shaping the head into attractive shapes." | 15:55 |
| fenn | there was a tribe of native american that thought flattened skulls were attractive... | 15:56 |
| kanzure | well, okay, how about this: select for brains that are able to survive flattening. you would first need to select the ones that would survive outside of a skull in reasonable conditions, like blood supply and such. | 15:56 |
| fenn | how flat are we talking about? | 15:56 |
| kanzure | oh, but then you need to get behavior input/outputs to check that it is still working. | 15:56 |
| kanzure | i don't know, <1 cm thickness | 15:56 |
| fenn | probably doable | 15:56 |
| kanzure | i think <1 cm thickness would be way easier to analyze | 15:57 |
| kanzure | 3d things are less probe-friendly | 15:57 |
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| kanzure | sorta unfortunate that these are just methods that lead to even more studying at the end, instead of leading to an uploaded functional brain thing | 16:00 |
| fenn | those hydrocephaly brains are pretty thin, even though the total volume is about the same | 16:02 |
| kanzure | i think the jury is still out on whether those are imaging artifacts... we need to see more neuroimaging studies of that. and more autopsies and dissections. | 16:02 |
| kanzure | it's interesting though that hydrocephaly should be easy to force (add a drip line) | 16:04 |
| fenn | kevin warwick had a bottle of rat neural tissue culture controlling a wheeled robot, i'm not sure if it ever accomplished anything resembling intelligence. but you could hypothetically construct a set of intelligence tests for various kinds of brain-in-a-vat setups | 16:05 |
| kanzure | yep sure... but my "data center of brain-slices-in-vat" plan suffered from questions regarding how to get all the brain matter split up like that | 16:06 |
| fenn | it's much easier to pretend that an animal moving around and eating cheese has a fully-functioning brain, but then you're limited to phenotypes that eat cheese and run around mazes | 16:06 |
| kanzure | so, hook up mouse and cat brains to optical character recognition tasks? | 16:07 |
| fenn | yeah i guess | 16:07 |
| fenn | images of soviet missile silos | 16:07 |
| fenn | i feel like there are a lot of cognitive functions that a brain performs, and we can't even enumerate them | 16:09 |
| fenn | visual object recognition is a well studied one | 16:09 |
| kanzure | well, smooshing/flattening a brain (and selecting for brain survival from this), then splitting it up into multiple dishes based on regions or something, yeah i guess that would give enough to analyze what each component is doing | 16:10 |
| kanzure | plus selection for electrode biocompatibility. and ability to survive being split up into lots of dishes... bleh. | 16:10 |
| fenn | but if you're selecting brains-in-a-vat for simplicity you might just be discarding all the important stuff because it's not being measured because you don't know to measure it in the first place | 16:10 |
| kanzure | well you would have to observe actual specimens running around with the simplified brains | 16:11 |
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| Alcyius | docl, that is not an option | 16:15 |
| Alcyius | My high school's math class stops at precalc | 16:15 |
| Alcyius | Then you move to the uni's math classes | 16:15 |
| Alcyius | Our courseload is integrated with the university | 16:16 |
| Alcyius | Like post-secondary+ | 16:16 |
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| docl | Any other high schools in the area that offer AP testing? | 16:18 |
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| docl | It's an annual thing that they tend to do in the spring. Homeschoolers do it too, it's one of those things like Driver's Ed. You don't have to do the high school's prep course if you study it for yourself. | 16:20 |
| kanzure | instead of spending all that time studying, better to spend it developing actual skills | 16:21 |
| docl | Isn't calculus an actual skill? | 16:21 |
| fenn | not a useful one | 16:21 |
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| Alcyius | docl, yeah, but if I leave the Early College High School, I'm barred from post-secondary stuff in the city | 16:21 |
| fenn | it was more useful before we had automatic computers | 16:21 |
| Alcyius | A money thing | 16:22 |
| Alcyius | My main issue is having to pay $500 if I fail the class | 16:22 |
| Alcyius | As opposed to the $0 I'd pay next year, when it would've been covered by scholarships | 16:22 |
| docl | fenn: Funny that, calculus was one of the requirements to get a computer science degree when I was going to college. | 16:23 |
| fenn | i'm not at all surprised | 16:23 |
| Alcyius | calc I is a req for comp sci here | 16:23 |
| fenn | organic chemistry was a requirement to get a biology degree. but biological chemistry and synthetic organic chemistry are different worlds... | 16:23 |
| Alcyius | Have to go all the way to Differential Equations for an engineering degree | 16:23 |
| kanzure | enrollment has nothing to do with your ability to learn calculus or organic chemistry or any other topic. | 16:24 |
| * docl wasn't familiar with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_college_high_school | 16:24 | |
| Alcyius | http://www.akronschools.com/school/Akron+Early+College+High+School | 16:25 |
| docl | Not sure you'd have to leave the ECHS to take a test at another school. It's just a test, right? | 16:25 |
| Alcyius | We take History 9 and 10, English 9, 10, 11, math up through honors precalc, and 2 years of science at the high school level | 16:25 |
| Alcyius | And the rest of our time is spent doing college classes to (ideally) graduate with an associate's degree | 16:26 |
| kanzure | so much wasted time. geeze. | 16:28 |
| fenn | but it's certifiably wasted time | 16:29 |
| fenn | so you can prove to a potential employer you are capable of wasting time in a specific way if someone tells you to | 16:29 |
| fenn | docl did you go to ucsb? | 16:30 |
| docl | fenn: I went to tvcc in oregon | 16:31 |
| kanzure | do you know the oregon folks in here? | 16:31 |
| kanzure | we have portland and eugene people | 16:31 |
| docl | I don't think I've met any of them in person. I'm in salem now. | 16:32 |
| kanzure | we should fix this | 16:32 |
| fenn | heh here we go again | 16:33 |
| fenn | herding cats | 16:33 |
| kanzure | docl: you should meet nmz787 | 16:33 |
| kanzure | docl: you might even be able to mooch off of him for the holidays | 16:33 |
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| fenn | Alcyius most math is really easy, just poorly explained. so you have to dig around until you find an explanation you understand, and then practice until the knowledge is burned into your memory (spaced repetition can help with this) | 16:39 |
| fenn | but there's no reason to ever spend _years_ studying a particular line of math | 16:39 |
| docl | kanzure: might be fun to hang out with him sometime. I keep intending to show up at the portland lesswrong meetups, but I always seem to feel more motivated to stay home than drive an hour to meet with random people. | 16:39 |
| kanzure | nmz787 is way better than lesswrong people | 16:40 |
| kanzure | even if they all morphed together and combined | 16:40 |
| kanzure | oh i guess wei dai would be in there. and a few others. hm. | 16:40 |
| kanzure | but still. | 16:40 |
| docl | fenn: have you seen this site? http://betterexplained.com/ | 16:40 |
| fenn | fwiw most early lesswrongers have left | 16:40 |
| kanzure | lesswrong is simply not optimized for the production of high-ability transhumanists. | 16:41 |
| fenn | no docl i haven't tried to learn any math in a long time | 16:41 |
| fenn | hmm maybe that's not true nevermind | 16:41 |
| fenn | it's mostly the jargon and hieroglyphics i have trouble with now | 16:41 |
| docl | I mostly learn math by trying to solve hypothetical engineering challenges. | 16:42 |
| kanzure | i was very upset when i learned how simple the explanation was for sinusoids and other trigonometric properties. i was also upset about the poor explanations that everyone had previously given me. what a waste of everyone's time. | 16:42 |
| docl | The hieroglyphics tend to stump me too. | 16:42 |
| fenn | it's the assumption that you know what they mean that stumps me | 16:42 |
| fenn | and no central hieroglyphics dictionary, like "what does S stand for" | 16:42 |
| fenn | in engineering people label their fucking variables | 16:43 |
| fenn | not so in math an physics | 16:43 |
| docl | hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbols might be worth spending a bit of time memorizing. | 16:44 |
| fenn | those are not the symbols i have trouble with | 16:45 |
| kanzure | it's a power law distribution thingy of symbol appearance, not surprising to see a list like that omitting the weird stuff | 16:46 |
| fenn | it's arbitrarily chosen greek or roman letters in various fonts and styles that have a common meaning | 16:46 |
| fenn | i wanted to say "an understood meaning" but understood by who? | 16:46 |
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| docl | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_physics_notations maybe? actually there's probably a whole huge wiki walk to do there. | 16:48 |
| fenn | this is also relevant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_letters_used_in_mathematics,_science,_and_engineering | 16:48 |
| kanzure | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_hanged_for_obscure_symbols_used_in_mathematics | 16:49 |
| kanzure | (adam back would be on this list...) | 16:49 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_letters_used_in_mathematics | 16:49 |
| kanzure | holy namespace collision batman | 16:50 |
| fenn | i didn't find these pages last time i looked for them | 16:50 |
| kanzure | this would be a good use for a moratorium | 16:51 |
| docl | kids these days have it so easy, am I right? | 16:51 |
| fenn | we should convene an international summit of concerned polymaths | 16:51 |
| fenn | to call for a moratorium on the use of single letters to represent abstract concepts and quantities | 16:52 |
| docl | yeah, namespace collision is a serious problem. | 16:52 |
| docl | maybe require everything be two or more letters (english letters, no unicode) with an underscore between them? | 16:53 |
| kanzure | ... no. | 16:53 |
| kanzure | two letters is not enough. | 16:53 |
| fenn | how about just words that represent the concept you are trying to communicate? is that so hard? | 16:53 |
| kanzure | i would settle for an appendix on every paper, and snobbishly abandoning anyone who foregoes inclusion of a definition of every symbol. | 16:54 |
| fenn | call the footnote police to take them away to the gulags | 16:55 |
| kanzure | yeah now this would be a good use of state surveillance | 16:55 |
| docl | isn't that what we pay peer reviewed journals for? I mean, what other people pay them for. | 16:57 |
| fenn | yeah people who pay taxes | 16:58 |
| fenn | suckers | 16:58 |
| kanzure | huh? | 16:58 |
| fenn | actually no, peer review is done out of the goodness of the hearts of academics, and a desire not to incur the wrath of the editor | 16:59 |
| fenn | and probably some other unsavory motivations i'm not aware of | 16:59 |
| kanzure | okay, what about selection for brains that can tolerate growth from neural tube stage and onward, in the presence of an invasive microelectrode array forest. would that be enough? | 16:59 |
| fenn | there are style guidelines and some journals actually enforce them | 16:59 |
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| kanzure | oh right, the skull grows around the brain during the growth stages. so you can't really just place it next to a 3d microelectrode scaffold and expect to get growth. | 17:00 |
| docl | what's the open source equivalent of peer reviewed journals? wikiversity? | 17:00 |
| fenn | why not just work on making microelectrode arrays that don't kill all the nerve cells? | 17:00 |
| kanzure | fenn: because that's only useful for the surface of the brain really. | 17:01 |
| kanzure | docl: there are some open-source journal platforms if that's what you're asking... | 17:01 |
| fenn | docl there has been a lot of backlash against transparent peer review for some reason | 17:01 |
| Alcyius | at least one group of republicans want scientific funding to be tied to congressional debate | 17:02 |
| kanzure | you will gain nothing from watching that debate | 17:02 |
| Alcyius | I mean they haven't passed that bill yet | 17:02 |
| fenn | see what a shitstorm PubPeer has created just by existing... | 17:03 |
| fenn | you'd think academics would be a little more immune to criticism than the average person, having undergone so much of it. but they're extremely sensitive to publicly available criticism because it affects hiring decisions and funding and so on | 17:04 |
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| kanzure | and criticism is very cheap to create, and costly to defend against. | 17:05 |
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| fenn | there have been various attempts at creating "arugment maps" or "belief networks" or whatever, that could maybe in some ideal universe make it less costly to defend against unwarranted criticism | 17:06 |
| fenn | i don't see much effort to change coming out of academia though | 17:07 |
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| docl | maybe there needs to be a proof of credibility algorithm associated to make sure the criticism is valid, kind of like proof of work in cryptocurrencies? | 17:13 |
| fenn | like pagerank? | 17:13 |
| fenn | or whuffie | 17:13 |
| fenn | is "credibility" objective or observer-dependent? | 17:13 |
| fenn | there was a proposal to require e-money "stamps" on email. if the recipient decided your email was spam, the stamps would be charged to your account, otherwise the email was free | 17:15 |
| fenn | you could stake your reputation on some piece of anonymous criticism; if the criticism were dreadfully flawed or nonsensical your identity would be revealed | 17:16 |
| fenn | but who gets to decide whether the criticism is valid? | 17:16 |
| docl | seem hard to divorce credibility from observer, but maybe there could be a way that works by building a network of experts and letting them decide, with performance of past criticisms tracked. it would all be relative and competitive. | 17:17 |
| fenn | this all sounds highly political and much worse than the existing impact factor by citation network system | 17:18 |
| fenn | too many words in that sentence heh | 17:18 |
| fenn | "impact factor" is a metric assigned to journals, and your personal score is determined by the H-index, which takes into account the impact factor of journals you have published in, and the journals that papers citing yours have published in | 17:20 |
| fenn | it's strictly additive so a bunch of low quality papers citing yours can't drag it down | 17:20 |
| fenn | you can easily game the system by publishing a bunch of crap papers in low impact journals citing your own | 17:21 |
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| fenn | oops that was a totally wrong description of h-index | 17:26 |
| kanzure | cheap criticism can be made by anyone with any motivation- even if they don't really want to positively contribute. this is why moderators exist. | 17:28 |
| kanzure | http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/ | 17:29 |
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| fenn | i'd rather people do research instead of playing politics games | 17:29 |
| Jawmare | fenn, you have no idea what departmental politics are | 17:32 |
| Jawmare | IT is even worse than normal office politics | 17:32 |
| fenn | my parents were university professors | 17:32 |
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| Jawmare | you put together 20-30 profs with ego the size of the moon | 17:33 |
| fenn | "Academic politics are so bitter because the stakes are so low." | 17:33 |
| kanzure | both of your parents? | 17:33 |
| Alcyius | Hey whichever one of you guys is working on a synthetic skin, hurry it up, I'm kinda sick of ripping my own apart | 17:33 |
| Alcyius | /s | 17:33 |
| kanzure | Alcyius: try super glue | 17:34 |
| Alcyius | kanzure, doesn't work for severe eczema | 17:34 |
| fenn | try supplemental magnesium | 17:34 |
| Alcyius | Now that's something I haven't heard before | 17:34 |
| Alcyius | I'll try that | 17:34 |
| fenn | magnesium citrate or glycinate | 17:34 |
| Alcyius | anything else to deal with absorption? | 17:35 |
| fenn | you can apply magnesium chloride solution to the skin (anywhere, not just where your eczema is) | 17:36 |
| fenn | it burns if you have a break in the skin though | 17:37 |
| fenn | you can overdose on magnesium glycinate though, there's no problems with absorption, just the extra expense | 17:38 |
| fenn | with magnesium citrate you can do 300-400mg/day before diarrhea becomes a problem | 17:38 |
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| Alcyius | I mean | 17:39 |
| Alcyius | I'm already dealing with that, because my health isn't in the best shape at the moment | 17:39 |
| fenn | albion makes a variety of amino acid chelates for animal feed supplementation, and they also do supplements for humans :D | 17:40 |
| Alcyius | First I need to get on an antidepressant | 17:41 |
| fenn | ssri's usually don't work | 17:42 |
| Alcyius | I've had...poor reactions to them | 17:42 |
| Alcyius | Gonna try a different one | 17:42 |
| kanzure | or school is a terrible environment for a person | 17:42 |
| Alcyius | *class | 17:42 |
| Alcyius | kanzure, I mean yes | 17:42 |
| Alcyius | But, I do indeed have depression only tangentially related to school | 17:42 |
| kanzure | how would you know? you're in school. | 17:42 |
| Alcyius | More lingering trauma and excessive familial expectations | 17:42 |
| Alcyius | Because it gets worse when I'm not | 17:43 |
| kanzure | summer doesn't count | 17:43 |
| fenn | do you have panic attacks? | 17:43 |
| Alcyius | I did before I started seeing a therapist | 17:43 |
| Alcyius | A proper one | 17:43 |
| Alcyius | Not a religious nutjob | 17:43 |
| fenn | magnesium also helps with panic attacks and anxiety | 17:44 |
| fenn | it's an NMDA antagonist and reduces the gain on your adrenaline response | 17:44 |
| bjonnh | fenn: do you have a reference for that? | 17:46 |
| fenn | well anyway if you want to experience temporary effects of elevated blood magnesium levels take an epsom salt bath | 17:47 |
| fenn | bjonnh: for which? | 17:47 |
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| fenn | bjonnh: a lot of my info comes from "the magnesium factor" by mildred seelig | 17:47 |
| bjonnh | Mg, and NMDA antagonist and "the gain on adrenaline response" | 17:48 |
| fenn | that was my paraphrasing | 17:48 |
| bjonnh | I think that's bullshit | 17:49 |
| bjonnh | Mg is used by most Ca channels | 17:50 |
| bjonnh | but eating it will not change anything | 17:50 |
| bjonnh | except if you are missing some eventually, but by the time it plays with your channels, you will clearly have worse problems | 17:50 |
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| Alcyius | but will it help my skin | 17:52 |
| Alcyius | If my skin isn't falling apart, I'd be a bit happier | 17:52 |
| Alcyius | I'd rather have a new set, but that's a way off | 17:53 |
| bjonnh | did you do a ionogram? | 17:53 |
| bjonnh | not ionogram | 17:53 |
| bjonnh | yes ionogram | 17:53 |
| Alcyius | bjonnh, the only dermatologist in my area stopped taking my insurance | 17:53 |
| bjonnh | any blood lab can do that | 17:54 |
| Alcyius | I mean, we know what the cause is | 17:54 |
| Alcyius | Well | 17:54 |
| Alcyius | Except for one area that's a bit weird | 17:54 |
| Alcyius | The rest is moderate to severe eczema with a moderate compulsion and bad reaction to any sort of pressure | 17:54 |
| Alcyius | so creams and ointments are out | 17:55 |
| bjonnh | you mean psychological cause? | 17:55 |
| bjonnh | what is your diet like? | 17:55 |
| Alcyius | poor, but that's typical of a college student | 17:56 |
| bjonnh | well that's already something you can probably work on | 17:56 |
| Alcyius | And it'd happen even without the compulsion part, I literally rip my skin apart in my sleep | 17:56 |
| bjonnh | but it implies to do some efforts | 17:56 |
| bjonnh | like cooking | 17:56 |
| bjonnh | (and yes cooking can be rather quick, 10-30 min a day is enough to have a proper diet) | 17:57 |
| bjonnh | and from a psychological POV, spending time taking care of yourself may help too | 17:57 |
| bjonnh | I've seen radical changes in students I worked with that decided to take care of their diet | 17:58 |
| Alcyius | bjonnh, the skin thing is a lifelong issue that's remained mostly constant in spite of other factors | 17:58 |
| Alcyius | And I do cook as time and energy permits | 17:59 |
| Alcyius | I need to get a decent chair in the kitchen though, I can't stand for long periods of time anymore | 17:59 |
| bjonnh | so that part is good for you, you already have the habit and time to cook | 17:59 |
| bjonnh | so now working on the nutritional aspect may help | 17:59 |
| bjonnh | skin issues are often rduced with correct lipid intake | 18:00 |
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| fenn | biochemistry is complicated and i don't have all the relevant details cached, but note: "Adrenaline or noradrenaline are receptor ligands to either α1, α2 or β-adrenergic receptors. α1 couples to Gq, which results in increased intracellular Ca2+ and subsequent smooth muscle contraction." | 18:01 |
| bjonnh | by correct I mean equilibrated and in a normal amount. | 18:01 |
| bjonnh | fenn: of course but everything is linked to everything in a body | 18:01 |
| bjonnh | but if your magnesium levels are ok, it make no real sense to take more magnesium | 18:02 |
| fenn | when you have higher extracellular magnesium concentrations, the mg2+ ions bunch up around the calcium channel and reduce the influx of ca2+ | 18:02 |
| fenn | the thing is 90% of americans are deficient in magnesium | 18:02 |
| Alcyius | I'm sorry to seem a bit rude, cuz you are offering better advice than "try this ointment" | 18:02 |
| Alcyius | But you do realize I'm talking about a life-long chronic condition right? | 18:02 |
| bjonnh | yes | 18:02 |
| Alcyius | Ok | 18:03 |
| Alcyius | Just making sure | 18:03 |
| bjonnh | the idea is not to cure it | 18:03 |
| Alcyius | But manage the symptoms | 18:03 |
| bjonnh | yep | 18:03 |
| bjonnh | fenn: 90%… wow | 18:03 |
| fenn | it's not surprising, it's really hard to get even the minium RDA from your diet | 18:04 |
| fenn | minimum* | 18:04 |
| fenn | skin issues often improve with fish oil supplementation, but it sounds like you have a psychological problem and this is just a manifestation of your stress response | 18:06 |
| Alcyius | fenn, I mean, it's not just psychological | 18:08 |
| fenn | chronic stress can cause inflammation and physiological changes | 18:08 |
| Alcyius | There's a psychological component that's been there since early childhood | 18:08 |
| Alcyius | And yeah stress is definitely an issue | 18:08 |
| Alcyius | But there's also just chronic dry skin that responds poorly to treatment | 18:08 |
| Alcyius | Because the only real treatments cause the inflammation and itchiness to begin with | 18:08 |
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| fenn | huh i wonder where i picked up the idea "chronic stress causes inflammation" | 18:16 |
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| bjonnh | because it may | 18:19 |
| fenn | i'm not seeing anything corroborating this though | 18:20 |
| fenn | only vaguely related things like "irritable bowel syndrome" or "autoimmune conditions" | 18:20 |
| bjonnh | well inflammation may be related to autoimmune things | 18:20 |
| Alcyius | Unrelated but | 18:21 |
| bjonnh | and immune system is linked to brain | 18:21 |
| bjonnh | so | 18:21 |
| bjonnh | why not | 18:21 |
| Alcyius | Damn they did a really good job at making the joker unsettling in Arkham Knight | 18:21 |
| bjonnh | Alcyius: no diabetes? | 18:22 |
| fenn | "Cohen argued that prolonged stress alters the effectiveness of cortisol to regulate the inflammatory response because it decreases tissue sensitivity to the hormone. Specifically, immune cells become insensitive to cortisol's regulatory effect. In turn, runaway inflammation is thought to promote the development and progression of many diseases." | 18:22 |
| Alcyius | bjonnh, no, but I do have something wrong with both of my legs, and my doctor's first guess from how they're moving and family history is early onset arthritis | 18:22 |
| Alcyius | Could be psoriatic arthritis | 18:23 |
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| fenn | this is one of those "blob of data points with a line drawn through it" papers | 18:25 |
| fenn | so it's a subtle effect | 18:27 |
| bjonnh | maybe :p | 18:28 |
| bjonnh | or none or a bad student | 18:29 |
| fenn | they were studying healthy college students though, not people with chronic disease | 18:29 |
| fenn | .title http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22474371 | 18:29 |
| yoleaux | Chronic stress, glucocorticoid receptor resistance, inflammation, and disease risk. - PubMed - NCBI | 18:29 |
| bjonnh | healthy college students | 18:30 |
| bjonnh | hah | 18:30 |
| fenn | 276 healthy adult volunteers | 18:30 |
| fenn | the typical subject demographic of psychology department experiments | 18:31 |
| bjonnh | bs | 18:31 |
| fenn | i don't blame them, it's hard to get research subjects | 18:31 |
| bjonnh | well probability of bs increases | 18:31 |
| bjonnh | I know | 18:32 |
| bjonnh | but there is this thing in research where it is better to make 4 crappy studies a year instead of a good one… | 18:33 |
| bjonnh | for many diverse reasons | 18:33 |
| bjonnh | which researches don't always control directly | 18:33 |
| bjonnh | researchers | 18:33 |
| fenn | yes that was the previous topic | 18:33 |
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| fenn | 2012-04-12.log:00:54 < jrayhawk> http://chriskresser.com/rhr-chronic-stress-cortisol-resistance-and-modern-disease goddamn this is an interesting podcast | 18:39 |
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| Alcyius | Nice | 19:00 |
| Alcyius | my bro just made dinner | 19:00 |
| Alcyius | Pork chops, loaded baked potatoes, and green beans | 19:00 |
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| kanzure | Alcyius: regarding arkham knight.... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2Ae8IzmEusR43OL9HNcKQ | 20:33 |
| kanzure | whoops | 20:34 |
| kanzure | better link https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgO7JBj821uHS8JrkAzGPLevc9Ky_D6qz | 20:34 |
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| kanzure | hmm. | 20:47 |
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| kanzure | what happened to those studies about offspring maze solving ability | 20:56 |
| FourFire | Anything I should check out in Leipzig? | 21:18 |
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| Jawmare | FourFire, LEGIDA | 22:00 |
| Jawmare | :D | 22:00 |
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