2015-12-27.log

--- Log opened Sun Dec 27 00:00:48 2015
-!- streety [streety@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:ded6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]00:16
-!- streety [streety@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:ded6] has joined ##hplusroadmap01:08
fennAlcyius: try to read and understand this http://fhi.ox.ac.uk/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf01:25
superkuhServer down?01:25
superkuh(re: that link of yours, fenn)01:26
superkuhI tried 3 proxies and they all can't reach it.01:26
fennhttp://fennetic.net/irc/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf01:26
superkuhThanks.01:27
-!- andares [~andares@2607:fb90:80ba:d141:554b:65a8:7b7f:f9b8] has joined ##hplusroadmap01:43
-!- andares [~andares@2607:fb90:80ba:d141:554b:65a8:7b7f:f9b8] has quit [Changing host]01:43
-!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined ##hplusroadmap01:43
-!- andares is now known as esmerelda01:45
-!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap01:50
-!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwubycwvcgcjhgvb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]03:17
-!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap03:20
-!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-56-224.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap03:31
-!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]04:11
paskyAlcyius: (if you aren't interested in answers, you may want to point that out while asking your question, or maybe don't ask the question at all)04:22
-!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap04:28
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has joined ##hplusroadmap04:51
-!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqgvguiwqifpcdmg] has joined ##hplusroadmap05:07
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has quit [Quit: ▂]05:12
-!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]05:16
kanzureagreed with pasky05:19
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]05:25
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap05:27
xrrFinally starting to do basic microbiology experiments :)05:35
xrrNeed to figure out where to get petri dishes, agar, inoculation loop and most importantly an incubator05:37
kanzurep212121, aliexpress, alibaba, ebay, the-odin.com (josiah zayner), john schloendorn's openbiotech.com (not sure if he rolled this into geneandcell.com or not)05:54
kanzureoh geneandcell.com is using shopify, shit i'm proud of him for recognizing that he shouldn't do that from scratch. how unusual.05:55
kanzurearchels: what have the patch clamp people been up to for the past few years?06:12
archelssome autoclamping stuff I guess, I dunno06:26
kanzurewasn't there in situ dna sequencing or something06:27
kanzureor live neuron imaging? surely there is something new.06:27
archelsmaybe some microdomain mRNA stuff?06:30
archelsI'm really just guessing at this point06:30
streetythere have been a couple of really recent articles performing single cell sequencing on cells after patch clamping06:36
kanzureafter or during?06:36
archelsafter, probably06:39
archelshaving its guts sucked out of it probably isn't a very pleasant experience for the cell06:39
streetyhttp://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nbt.3443.html http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nbt.3445.html http://www.nature.com/cr/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/cr2015149a.html06:40
streetyall afterwards06:40
-!- Jawmare [~Jawmare@unaffiliated/jawmare] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]06:48
-!- Guest33002 [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]06:58
-!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-155-69.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap07:13
-!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]07:16
-!- Jawmare [~Jawmare@unaffiliated/jawmare] has joined ##hplusroadmap07:42
-!- jenelizabeth_ [~jenelizab@cpc76802-brmb10-2-0-cust399.1-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap07:44
-!- Guest90279 [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap07:57
-!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap08:09
-!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-56-224.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]08:12
-!- |node [uid125132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tvyqbgkgmneiugbd] has joined ##hplusroadmap08:16
-!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-56-224.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap08:17
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has joined ##hplusroadmap08:51
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has quit [Client Quit]08:52
-!- dcentral [~IGLC@2601:681:500:165a:2d0b:65b9:18c4:f9bb] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]09:04
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has joined ##hplusroadmap09:07
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has quit [Client Quit]09:07
-!- dcentral [~IGLC@2601:681:500:165a:6c4d:bd06:3694:2599] has joined ##hplusroadmap09:15
-!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fvpucbmoygipicls] has joined ##hplusroadmap09:21
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has joined ##hplusroadmap09:31
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has quit [Client Quit]09:34
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has joined ##hplusroadmap09:36
-!- omote [~omote@unaffiliated/omote] has quit [Client Quit]09:36
-!- jaboja [~jaboja@erx124.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap09:58
Diablo-D3speaking of strange DIY stuff to do in your basement: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Build-a-Forge-Gas/10:10
-!- zadock [~outsider@109.166.130.146] has joined ##hplusroadmap10:23
-!- zadock [~outsider@109.166.130.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]10:25
-!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@195.114.243.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]10:31
-!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@195.114.243.161] has joined ##hplusroadmap10:33
doclDiablo-D3: Have you seen this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHD10DjxM1g10:36
xentracDiablo-D3: I don't recommend building a propane burner in your basement; it's too easy to get carbon monoxide poisoning10:41
Diablo-D3xentrac: :D10:41
xentracbuild it outside.  or do super aggressive CO monitoring as you're testing your design modifications and afterwards10:44
Diablo-D3I was kidding about the basement part10:44
Diablo-D3I wouldnt want that 20 feet near my house10:44
Diablo-D3okay so wait10:45
Diablo-D3docl: the outer bucket he used is aluminum10:45
Diablo-D3hes smelting aluminum in it10:45
Diablo-D3I suspect that may not be the brightest idea10:45
Diablo-D3I mean, just smelting pepsi cans, it'd probably survive awhile10:46
Diablo-D3but long term use is going to damage the cement and the outer bucket, wouldn't it?10:46
xentracno10:47
Diablo-D3why not?10:48
-!- Houshalter [~Houshalte@oh-71-50-56-224.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]10:48
-!- atomical [~atomical@li669-27.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap10:50
Diablo-D3is it because it just doesn't run long enough?10:51
xentrache's using plaster of paris.  what is the lifetime expectancy of plaster of paris refractory at red-heat temperatures?10:52
Diablo-D3I don't know.10:53
xentracWell, go find out, and then come back and tell us.10:55
Diablo-D3I'm not even sure how to find that out10:55
xentracThere are books and published documents on refractory lifetime expectancy curves10:56
xentracdocl: that is a very nicely produced video of the Gingery charcoal forge10:56
doclHadn't seen it called that. http://gingerybookstore.com/charcoalfoundry.html10:58
Diablo-D3xentrac: I give up.11:00
xentracyou've only been trying for five minutes!11:01
Diablo-D3all I can find is it'll die if you go past 2,200F11:01
Diablo-D3and I think thats just for pure plaster of paris11:02
xentracthat's a good start --- and you can find out the temperature of orange-red from standard temperature-color charts11:02
xentracyeah, but the sand isn't going to be the weak link in the chain11:02
xentracbut there are companies that sell refractory mixes and that publish engineering recommendations for things like that11:02
xentracexpect to spend a couple of hours finding it out11:02
xentracI know you can do it!11:02
Diablo-D3but its the end of the year and my company needs meeeee :(11:05
Diablo-D3xentrac: does the sand increase the temp it survives at?11:06
-!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqgvguiwqifpcdmg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]11:07
Diablo-D3xentrac: okay, I made a mistake, I asked help from another irc channel.11:07
Diablo-D3"sodium silicate + sand is a much better forge material than that plaster bullshit"11:07
* Diablo-D3 is sorry he ever even shared the video.11:08
xentracno, I don't think the sand aggregate will *increase* the temperature11:08
xentracI am surprised to hear of someone using waterglass as a refractory for making a forge.  isn't it expansive?11:09
xentracquestions of quality aside, every hardware store here has plaster, and I haven't found a source of waterglass yet here in Buenos Aires11:10
Diablo-D3Yeah I think its like11:11
Diablo-D3Im going to leave the strange metallurgy bullshit to the experts11:11
Diablo-D3my level of DIY involves zipties and duck tape11:11
xentrac(and I think you're more likely to burn yourself with the waterglass)11:12
doclhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mx1-o1_MWo shows how to make it from lye and silica gel.11:13
xentraccool! I think I might need to level up my chemistry lab safety skills a few times first though ;)11:14
xentraccan't you use lye and soda-lime glass too?11:14
doclyeah, it looks super dangerous11:14
doclhttp://chemistry.about.com/od/makechemicalsyourself/a/make-sodium-silicate.htm also talks about it11:16
kanzure"economics of drone delivery" https://www.flexport.com/blog/drone-delivery-economics/11:18
doclhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xltvwhogklI mentions that you can dissolve sand in molten sodium hydroxide11:22
doclI can't really see why making it from soda-lime glass wouldn't work (same elements, right?), but didn't find anything with a cursory websearch.11:25
Diablo-D3I like that video more11:25
Diablo-D3and re soda-lime glass11:25
Diablo-D3if you're doing that in pyrex, I suggest you pay attention to WHICH pyrex11:25
-!- atomical_ [~atomical@172.56.12.128] has joined ##hplusroadmap11:26
-!- esmerelda [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]11:28
Diablo-D3(the formula for non-scientific pyrex bakeware is a soda-lime formulation)11:28
-!- atomical [~atomical@li669-27.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]11:29
Jawmareguys come on11:34
kanzurejawmare what happened to the plan that involved me giving you large piles of money to do some lab work?11:36
Jawmarekanzure, I don't have a lab11:37
kanzuremoney can trivially solve this problem11:38
Jawmareso hows the project going?11:41
-!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@195.114.243.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]11:42
kanzurestill working on recruiting chemistry people11:42
kanzurei am not going to pull the trigger on the build-out without that..... seems like a waste.11:42
kanzurei'd rather try to get things right on the first try. e.g. get someone who wants to do lab work, figure out necessary materials, check whether the design makes sense given the things i don't know about, etc.11:44
Jawmarelab work rarely works on the first try11:46
doclwhat kind of lab work is being planned?11:47
Jawmarewet chem dna synthesis11:47
Jawmares/lab/bench11:47
kanzureyea i agree about rarely working on first try-- that is why i want to pay someone to work on that, heh.11:48
Jawmareyou'll probably be looking at someone with at least a MSc who did stuff in DNA synthesis11:50
kanzurewhy?11:51
kanzurei don't need perfect on the first try; i think i just need someone who can work on the problem, try stuff, and then try to fix things when they break.11:51
JawmareYes, that would require someone who have at least a MSc11:52
Jawmareor someone who have worked independently11:52
JawmareYou'll also need something to characterize the DNA11:53
kanzureyep, i'd probably buy them some equipment- spectrometers, maybe a shitty sequencer (or just ship the samples off- it's slow, but w/e), mass spec, etc..11:55
bjonnhwhat budget do you have for all that?11:57
kanzurehow much do you need? :-)11:58
bjonnhwell a mass spec is hundred thousands11:59
bjonnhdepends what you need exactly11:59
bjonnhit can go close to a million11:59
kanzureperhaps if you buy them used/insured/with warranty/with maintenance..... but yeah, mass specs are not always that expensive.11:59
bjonnhif you take an FT-ICR11:59
kanzureengineer labor to design and build and test a mass spec is cheaper than spending $200k on a mass spec, heh12:00
kanzurebut also, renting access to existing lab space is also an option.12:00
kanzurei don't care.12:00
-!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n12:00
adlaihow come labspace (and spare hands) rental isn't already as blooming as business as recording studios?12:01
adlaithere must be plenty of rich lazyboys looking for helpful hands12:01
adlaiwhen does the market thing begin?12:02
-!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-63-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap12:02
doclI've been thinking, high grade vacuum chambers are a missing link for the diy / low-cost manufacturing / science world. but they don't seem that difficult in principle. the materials strength needed to hold a high grade vacuum isn't substantially different from a lower grade one.12:04
kanzurewell, most commercial labs are owned by the parent company because they are paranoid about privacy and intellectual property and stuff.12:04
Jawmareadlai, science, back in the 1800s, were a hobby for richboys12:05
bjonnhdocl: yeah mass specs are made from standard stainless12:05
bjonnhnot that thick12:05
kanzurethere's rental opportunities in a number of locations but they are poorly advertized to our community (especially diybio- which makes sense, since nobody in diybio hsa any money).12:05
bjonnhlike 1/2 or 3/4 inch12:05
Jawmarethick glasses are not that easy to make12:05
bjonnhbut it is most for electrical noise related questions12:05
doclbjonnh: does mass spec need ultra high vacuum?12:05
bjonnhdocl: yes, you have turbopumps (usually two)12:05
doclmakes sense12:06
bjonnhless that 2*10^-10 torr12:06
doclwonder if turbo pumps (at least the blades) are 3d printable with regular cheap 3d printers?12:06
bjonnhhaha no12:07
bjonnhdon't ever put plastic in here12:07
bjonnhthey are made of a special metal12:07
kanzurei think someone was using (photolithography) 3d printing to make blade casts, but dunno.12:07
bjonnhand you need a standard vacuum pump too12:08
doclkanzure: casting was going to be my next suggestion :)12:08
bjonnhif you use a turbopump with atmospheric pressure you will just have blades flying all over the room12:08
bjonnhusually they need a pre vacuum of 0.01 mbar12:08
doclthere's commercial systems like this at reasonable prices: http://www.amazon.com/ProVac-vacuum-chamber-gallon-size/dp/B00E0BG8R4/12:09
kanzureJawmare: to be fair, i have been hoping to find someone willing to do contracting/consulting on odd hours because i'm somewhat unwilling to jump immediately into full-time employment.... but i haven't fully considered whether i should be okay with offering full-time employment.12:13
kanzureanyway it seems more likely that a masters grad is going to want full-time employment. but hopefully not.12:13
Jawmareyou won't really find a lot of masters grad with lab spaces12:14
Jawmareactually you won't find a lot of masters grad, let alone in related fields12:14
doclare there likely to be universities willing to lend the needed equipment?12:15
-!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap12:15
Jawmareuniversities are not really open to let people they don't know to touch valuable stuff12:15
Jawmareacademic collaboration, maybe.. if you find a prof that sympathize the DIY biohacking scene12:16
kanzurei agree that universities are unlikely to let you touch their stuff :-)12:17
kanzureacademic collaboration would require something like... a grant... or something.12:17
kanzureright, sympathizer is too much of a constraint though--- there really aren't that many dna synthesis labs like that heh.12:18
kanzureand then the chances that they have someone willing to work on this project too? even lower.12:18
doclcan you create a grant? no wait, that's probably too much work.12:18
bjonnhdocl: for a mass spec you need vacuum, high voltages, ion lens (basically 4 and 6 rods with really precise voltages applied to them)12:22
bjonnhand then you need a way to separate your ions according to their mass/charge ratio12:22
bjonnhI would go for the service mass spec (which you can more than probably find) analysis price can range from $50 (academic labs) to some hundred by sample12:23
bjonnhusually for some hundreds you get the analysis of the data done too.12:24
-!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap12:27
-!- atomical_ [~atomical@172.56.12.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]12:30
kanzureyes but the lead time is the downside there.... but yes.12:34
-!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]12:34
bjonnhkanzure: well one way could be to propose a grant12:34
bjonnhyou come with your project and give the grant to the university that propose the best service for what you want12:35
-!- dfused [~dfused@2400:8901::f03c:91ff:fe67:eb38] has joined ##hplusroadmap12:36
kanzureuniversity admins take 52% of all grant money. kinda gross, although i suppose not a showstopper.12:36
-!- atomical [~atomical@li669-27.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap12:36
-!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lmjptxownacugtwy] has joined ##hplusroadmap12:41
Jawmare^thats actually very disgusting12:42
doclhttp://socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/pub/pdffiles/VacComp.pdf12:46
bjonnhkanzure: yep12:47
-!- atomical_ [~atomical@172.56.12.128] has joined ##hplusroadmap12:47
bjonnhthat's a big big issue12:47
bjonnhand usually they take 52% but the funding agencies are asking them to give back to researchers12:48
bjonnhalso some agencies force universities to take less than that12:49
bjonnhbut that's rare12:49
bjonnhalso universities don't really give back…12:49
-!- atomical [~atomical@li669-27.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]12:51
doclhttp://ocean.sci-hub.bz/8043198f298ec1ccce51020b598c6916/10.1116%401.578186.pdf fast pump-down aluminum ultrahigh vacuum system12:54
-!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap13:04
-!- atomical_ [~atomical@172.56.12.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]13:07
-!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-63-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]13:16
doclhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry13:19
-!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fvpucbmoygipicls] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]13:29
-!- atomical_ [~atomical@172.56.12.128] has joined ##hplusroadmap13:51
-!- atomical [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]13:54
-!- atomica__ [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap13:55
-!- atomical_ [~atomical@172.56.12.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]13:58
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]14:24
-!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap14:26
-!- Darius_ [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap14:31
-!- augur_ [~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]14:59
-!- augur [~augur@c-73-46-94-9.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap15:01
-!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]15:09
-!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has joined ##hplusroadmap15:34
-!- Darius_ [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]15:36
-!- Act [uid89656@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lmjptxownacugtwy] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]15:37
-!- andares [~andares@2607:fb90:1003:a1fd:ea82:ea6a:968d:f4d5] has joined ##hplusroadmap15:39
-!- andares [~andares@2607:fb90:1003:a1fd:ea82:ea6a:968d:f4d5] has quit [Changing host]15:39
-!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined ##hplusroadmap15:39
-!- andares is now known as esmerelda15:43
-!- |node [uid125132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tvyqbgkgmneiugbd] has quit []15:52
justanotheruserWhere do I find GPU clusters for rent16:00
justanotheruserAWS has 4 GPU clusters, which is wimpy16:00
kanzurespin up multiple instances?16:01
-!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]16:13
-!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap16:17
-!- Darius [~quassel@207.251.103.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]16:19
-!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap16:30
Diablo-D3yeah what kanzure said16:35
Diablo-D3although its cheaper to just build your own cluster16:35
-!- |node [uid125132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aknrpgikdnimhgbh] has joined ##hplusroadmap16:42
adlaiso is the oldest profession older than the human race?16:43
* adlai mistook this for ##hminuslookback, oops please disregard from log16:43
-!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]16:46
-!- jaboja [~jaboja@erx124.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]16:49
-!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]16:55
-!- dcentral [~IGLC@2601:681:500:165a:6c4d:bd06:3694:2599] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]17:03
-!- jaboja [~jaboja@ese1.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap17:11
-!- dcentral [~IGLC@2601:681:500:165a:6c4d:bd06:3694:2599] has joined ##hplusroadmap17:16
-!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap17:25
-!- jaboja [~jaboja@ese1.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]17:31
-!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz17:34
bjonnhDiablo-D3: cheaper to build your own? I'm not that sure17:48
bjonnhdepends how long you need it17:48
Diablo-D3bjonnh: well yeah17:49
Diablo-D3but you can get a lot of used cards cheap off ebay17:49
Diablo-D3especially with all the bitcoin gpu miners finally giving up and going home17:50
Diablo-D3(about 2 years after everyone else did)17:50
-!- adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has left ##hplusroadmap ["WeeChat 1.3"]17:50
justanotheruserDiablo-D3: the GPU miners are giving up? I thought they were moving to new scamcoins17:55
Diablo-D3justanotheruser: eh, they kinda sort were17:56
Diablo-D3but even that doesnt pay well enough17:56
justanotheruseraight, so there is a good used GPU market?17:56
Diablo-D3yeah for the past 2 years17:57
Diablo-D3but largely for a long time17:57
Diablo-D3its just hit nd miss17:57
Diablo-D3about a third of cards on ebay are dead17:57
justanotheruserwhat about FPGAs?17:57
Diablo-D3but when you're paying half or less what theywre new17:57
Diablo-D3bitcoin'ed fpgas are useless17:57
Diablo-D3all compute, no ram17:57
Diablo-D3those boards were made for one function, and thats it17:57
justanotheruserah right17:57
Diablo-D3its what mkes me sad about those17:58
Diablo-D3they really are kind of worthless now17:58
Diablo-D3although some are still profitable straight up17:58
Diablo-D3if you have them stashed in a DC thats getting good power prices17:58
fennwhy are 1/3 of the GPU cards dead?17:59
Diablo-D3fenn: idiot overclockers17:59
justanotheruserbecause they are meant form gaymez not mining17:59
Diablo-D3its not even bitcoin guys17:59
Diablo-D3its just idiot 14 year olds17:59
Diablo-D3ZOMG SO FAST SO FAST17:59
Diablo-D3no, more like so bsod17:59
justanotheruseroh, just overclocking? lol18:00
Diablo-D3I mean, I overclocked cards too, but I understood the limits of the hardware18:00
Diablo-D3I'd hug my 7970, the most glorious gpu ever, but it'd burn me :(18:00
Diablo-D3I think after Im done using it, I may get it mounted18:01
Diablo-D3I sacrificed the hsf assembly on it for the greater good18:02
Diablo-D3and like optimus prime, it came back even better18:02
Diablo-D3actually, more like megatron/galvitron18:03
-!- abram__ is now known as abetusk18:10
-!- filthy_peasant [627a8dea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.122.141.234] has joined ##hplusroadmap18:14
filthy_peasanthi18:15
filthy_peasantwhat's up18:15
filthy_peasanthi jawmare18:15
Jawmarehi18:15
filthy_peasanthi kanzure18:15
Jawmarehttp://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/18:15
Jawmarewhat do you think?18:22
-!- atomica__ [~atomical@209.153.22.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]18:33
-!- gilbertus [~jonessis@ipv6testultimate-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap18:37
-!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-197-123-138.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]18:37
-!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-163-215-18.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap18:38
filthy_peasantseems interesting jawmare :)18:47
-!- jaboja [~jaboja@ese1.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap18:55
-!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tlruyqplwiifdtmj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]19:17
-!- filthy_peasant [627a8dea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.122.141.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]19:22
-!- gilbertus [~jonessis@ipv6testultimate-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net] has quit [K-Lined]19:24
-!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap19:25
-!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjwhaxcvyinuhsbf] has joined ##hplusroadmap19:38
-!- jaboja [~jaboja@ese1.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]19:46
-!- jaboja64 [~jaboja@ese1.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap19:47
-!- jaboja64 [~jaboja@ese1.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]20:02
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has joined ##hplusroadmap20:10
-!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@195.114.243.161] has joined ##hplusroadmap20:15
-!- PatrickRobotham [uid18270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cvnjhonxipirzqhy] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]20:40
xentracdocl: I agree with you about the vacuum chambers.  actually even low-vacuum chambers are really useful for some things.  a sprengel pump is the easy way to get a reasonably high vacuum20:44
kanzurebloop21:06
xentracturbomolecular pumps can get down to 10 nanopascals; Sprengel pumps can only get down to a millipascal21:09
xentraca millipascal qualifies as "high vacuum" nowadays, but not "ultra high vacuum"21:13
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has quit [Quit: Leaving]21:14
xentracmy understanding is that from the millipascal range, another way to get to arbitrarily high vacuums is to add getters21:15
xentracwhich is how Lee De Forest was able to invent the Audion tube in 1906, before the Holweck pump was invented in 1920 and the turbomolecular pump in 195821:16
xentracgetters are slow, qualify as contamination in themselves, and are potentially very expensive to regenerate after they've been spent, but they're also very simple and they're unavoidable21:18
fennan ion pump sounded reasonably straightforward to construct21:19
fennjust a small diode tube21:21
xentracI didn't know about those21:21
fenn"capable of reaching pressures as low as 10−11 mbar under ideal conditions.[1] An ion pump ionizes gas within the vessel it is attached to and employs a strong electrical potential, typically 3–7 kV, which allows the ions to accelerate into and be captured by a solid electrode and its residue."21:22
fenn1e-11 mbar21:22
xentracoil diffusion pumps can also reach 10 nanopascals, just like turbopumps, and they are a lot simpler21:22
xentracthat's 1 nanopascal21:22
xentracimpressive!21:22
xentracI wish people would just use the SI units for pressure21:23
fennwhat is SI? pascal?21:23
xentracyeah21:23
xentracbut for whatever reason every field just makes up its own units and keeps using them21:24
fenni guess bar is more useful for daily engineering21:24
xentracapparently not or they wouldn't be using millibar21:24
fennhigh vacuum is not daily engineering21:25
fennthere are way too many pressure units in common use though21:25
xentracI guess you could make the argument that our day-to-day pressures are a bar or so, maybe half a dozen bar in your bike tire21:26
fennnot that much21:26
xentracwhich is maybe easier than saying it's 600 kilopascals21:26
fennoh half a dozen hmm21:26
fennwhat do people say in argentina when pumping tires?21:27
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@103.198.139.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap21:27
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@103.198.139.33] has quit [Changing host]21:27
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has joined ##hplusroadmap21:27
xentracbut I think everyday engineering frequently uses pressures that are both orders of magnitude higher (like the moduli of elasticity I was confused about the other week in the GPa range) and lower (the dynamic pressure of a breeze, the expected load of a building)21:27
xentracthey use psi!21:27
xentracI forget what they call them though21:28
xentracnot sure if they're "libras" or "psi"21:28
xentracthey don't say "libras por pulgada cuadrada" though21:28
fennwhen building a mass spec you don't need such-and-such vacuum level, you need to have a mean free path shorter than the distance that individual ions travel21:30
xentrachttp://www.public.asu.edu/~aomdw/GLASS/DIFFUSION_PUMP.html describes what claims to be an easy-to-make and very inexpensive oil diffusion pump21:30
xentracyou mean longer?21:30
fennso it would seem that a smaller instrument would have to attain less stringent vacuum levels21:31
fenner, yeah longer21:31
xentracaye21:31
xentracby the same token, a smaller turbomolecular pump ought to be able to tolerate a higher pressure level from its roughing pump21:31
fenni wouldn't even bother with a turbomolecular pump21:32
fenna peristaltic pump has no dead space and is super cheap and simple to build21:33
fennthen an ion pump can get you the rest of the way (?)21:34
xentracyeah, the ion pump thing sounds pretty effective21:34
xentracalthough the oil diffusion pump might be good enough for a lot of applications and be easier to build21:34
fennthe oil goes everywhere though21:35
xentracapparently21:36
-!- Guest90279 is now known as amiller21:36
xentracI have no experience with vacuum applications21:37
xentracso maybe I shouldn't talk21:37
fennme either21:37
-!- amiller is now known as Guest103821:37
xentracbut I agree with docl that it's a very important capability for a lab, for a lot of things21:37
fennwhen i was thinking about building a small mass spec i was planning on using small scale glass tubing and just melting glass together for all the connections21:38
xentracthat seems to be what the oil-diffusion design I linked above did21:38
xentracfabricating vacuum tubes, cryostats (and thus cryogenics in general), degassing castings, building scanning electron microscopes, running mass spectrometers, coating mirrors, and electron-beam melting, welding, and etching21:39
xentracall of those require vacuum21:39
xentracmaybe I'm missing some important things?21:40
fenn"Proceedings of the A.S.G.S. 1995 Sumposium",21:42
fenn"4" Glass Oil Diffusion Pump", by Michael D. Wheeler, pages 24-30, carries the full21:42
fennpublication.21:42
fennwell, great21:42
fenn"here's a photo" thanks dude21:42
xentracyeah, and I'm not successful at finding a copy et21:42
xentracyet21:42
xentrache seems to have started a glassblowing company21:46
fennthere are not very many scientific glassblowers in the world21:46
xentracI guess that's why they only have their symposium once a year21:47
fenni met one here, but he was moving back to panama21:47
-!- Madplatypus [uid19957@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-akatswktxxcrovmt] has joined ##hplusroadmap21:47
xentracthere are a lot of scientists who sometimes blow a little glass though21:48
-!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjwhaxcvyinuhsbf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]21:49
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]21:49
bjonnhfenn: you need turbomolecular pump21:50
bjonnh21:50
fennplease elaborate21:50
bjonnhdetecting tons of small ions with an home made mass spec could be possible21:50
bjonnhlike metals that kind of stuff21:50
fennthat's mostly what i'm interest in21:51
bjonnhbut if you plan to do organic molecules bigger than 2-3 atoms…21:51
bjonnhyou'll be screwed21:51
fenni'm not trying to solve protein structures or anything like that21:51
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has joined ##hplusroadmap21:51
fenncan't i just let it run longer to get a better SNR?21:51
bjonnhwell mass spec is not really helpful for structure (not directly at least)21:52
bjonnhfenn: if you have enough material21:52
bjonnhprobably21:52
bjonnhyou should look at magnetic sector mass specs21:52
bjonnhthey were able to get some decent results with these21:52
bjonnhI would just change the ion separation part with some newer technologies21:52
xentracbjonnh: are you saying that ion pumps and diffusion pumps are not useful for mass spectrometers?21:52
bjonnhno these could work, depends on the "flow"-rate you can reach21:53
fenni wonder why the sector design only goes through 90 degrees instead of a full 360 ish21:53
bjonnhbut you usually don't want to attract ions in a mass spec21:53
bjonnhyou'll loose your signal21:53
xentracindeed21:53
fennhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sector.jpg21:53
xentracfwiw the set of pumps that someone thought were important enough to includei n http://accounts.smccd.edu/mcomberj/AVS_Timeline.pdf are Sprengel(-Geissler(-Edison)), Crookes, Bunsen water-jet, getters, oil-piston, cryopumping (with charcoal originally), Gaede's oil-sealed vane pump, Pfeiffer's variant of it, Gaede's molecular-drag pump, the diffusion pump, Langmuir's high-speed diffusion pump and all-metal condensation pump, ....21:59
xentracand at that point we get mass spectrometers21:59
xentracthen the Gaede box pump, the Holweck pump, three kinds of oil (as opposed to mercury) diffusion pumps, multistage diffusion pumps22:02
xentracand at that point we get SEMs22:02
xentracbtw WRT 3-D printing turbopumps, I think there's a good chance we can turn gelcasting processes for high-temperature ceramics into 3-D printing processes22:03
xentracit should be a heck of a lot easier than bootstrapping selective laser sintering of steel, let alone superalloys22:04
xentracthe turbomolecular pump finally shows up in 195822:05
xentracand the ion pump in 1953 and 195422:05
-!- AmbulatoryCortex [~Ambulator@173-31-155-69.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]22:05
xentrachmm, this also mentions "a series of amateur orientated vacuum articles in Scientific American" starting 1958. that might actually be a better place to start than working backward from what we know now22:07
xentracI mean that was after all the major pumping inventions had already happened22:07
xentracalso mentions a magazine called "The Bell Jar" about amateur vacuum stuff22:09
kanzuregrumble grumble i guess i should dig up my (now lost?) page on ultra-high vacuum stuff.22:10
-!- |node [uid125132@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aknrpgikdnimhgbh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]22:11
xentracyeah22:12
xentracalso though this is the kind of dependency relationship that would be useful for SKDB22:13
kanzurei don't suppose any of you nutjobs happen to have a copy of that old page? it was my atom holography page.22:13
fennhttp://www.sandia.gov/media/robocast.htm "a new way of fabricating ceramics, called robocasting, that requires no molds or machining.22:14
xentracthat you typically need such-and-such a vacuum for aluminizing, such-and-such a vacuum for a working vacuum tube, such-and-such a vacuum for a SEM, and the Sprengel pump will give you such-and-such a vacuum and requires glassblowing and mercury22:14
xentraccan SKDB currently handle that kind of relationship?22:14
fennyes22:15
fennvacuum is expressed as a unit and that would be put in the run-time requirements22:15
doclhttp://amasci.com/amateur/sciam1.html has links, but some are dead22:16
xentracfenn: yeah, that syringe thing is one way to do 3-D printing of ceramics22:17
xentracI think the more popular way is with inkjet powder squirting22:18
xentracuh binder squirting22:18
xentracon a powder bed22:18
xentracso far I've only seen people do that with Stone-Age clay and sand powder, which has produced some impressive results22:20
fennselective sintering inhibition looks like a pain because you get large solid blocks as waste material22:20
xentracbut I think it should be maybe even easier with systems like gelatin and aluminum oxide, as well as safer22:21
fennsyringe squirting has the terrible surface texture typical of FDM22:21
xentracalso the terrible slowness22:21
xentracalthough maybe if you have to fire it for 24 hours anyway that doesn't matter22:21
fennbehrokh khoshnevis came up with a deposition head with paddles that smooth out the surface as long as it doesn't have too much curvature22:22
fennwell, one of his grad slaves probably22:22
doclkanzure: try http://web.archive.org/web/20100226044703/http://heybryan.org/projects/atoms/22:22
xentracthat kind of first-order approximation gets you continuity with only discontinuities in the derivative, which is probably good enough for a lot of purposes22:23
fennhttp://www.craft-usc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ccccc.png diagram of deposition head22:23
xentracthere's a bit of an overview in http://www.belljar.net/amsci.htm actually22:24
fennRIP lindsay publications :(22:24
xentrackanzure: maybe you should keep the web site notes that you write yourself at least in a git repository if you still hate IPFS22:24
xentracfenn: that's very cute22:25
kanzurewtf but the wayback machine was giving me no results when i looked the other day22:28
kanzure"the Bell Jar - Vacuum Technique for the Amateur"22:28
xentracthe wayback machine is not very reliable22:28
xentrachttp://www.belljar.net/2011_csl_vacuum_overview.pdf seems like a good place to start actually22:28
fenn.title http://www.youtube.com/embed/OJceJx3NCio22:29
yoleauxVideo of operation of actual Contour Crafting prototype machine - YouTube22:29
xentracfenn: a particular system I've been thinking about is waterglass precipitated into silica gel as a binder using acid22:30
kanzureah right, i was looking for atom_holography_notes.html22:30
xentracif you're squirting binder into a powderbed from inkjet, you could maybe put the waterglass into the inkjet head and the acid in the powder, but that seems like a recipe for permanently clogged or rapidly corroded heads22:32
xentracbut if it's workable it should give you rock-hard dimensionally stable ceramic composite pieces right away without sintering22:32
xentracman, p.5 of that PDF has exactly the dependency diagram that I was trying to reconstruct in my head22:34
fenn"this booklet was prepared for the citizen scientists league"22:36
kanzure"a subsidiary of lex luthor corp" oh well there's the problem22:37
doclxentrac: wow, that's a cool chart.22:38
xentracyeah!22:40
-!- SolG [~Sol@c-69-141-24-242.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap22:42
xentracI wish I had a pamphlet like this for cryogenics22:44
fennyou can use co2 for solidifying the waterglass22:45
doclhigh temp printed refractory molds for casting?22:47
xentracco2, seriously?22:48
fennyep22:48
xentracdoes that take a long time? co2 isn't that reactive22:48
fennit's standard practice for making foundry cores22:48
fennit takes a few seconds22:48
xentrachmm, so maybe not suitable for 3-D printing22:48
xentracdocl: yeah, you can print high-temp refractory molds for casting out of Stone Age clay bodies22:49
xentracit's just the lost-wax method without the wax22:49
-!- Darius [~quassel@cpe-158-222-160-123.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]22:49
xentracthe Bell Jar dude opines that oil-diffusion is the best suited for "general amateur applications" of high vacuum22:50
fenn.title http://youtu.be/rs4q-QZmNpY?t=7m22:50
yoleauxDIY Boat Propeller - Part 5 - The Success - YouTube22:51
fennshows co2 solidifying sand + waterglass22:51
fennhe's doing it wrong though, you don't usually solidify the entire mold half like that22:51
xentracdocl: the open3dp folks at UW have published a bunch of recipes for 3-D printing ceramics out of clay with inkjet "binder"22:52
xentracthat does seem a little excessive and maybe counterproductive22:52
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]22:54
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has joined ##hplusroadmap22:55
xentracI think for 3-D printing kinds of things, there isn't a need to shape a thing first and then harden it later, so the CO₂ trick probably doesn't have any advantage over just including acid in one of the components you add22:57
xentracyou would rather prefer to have everything hardened as soon as you have shaped it22:57
xentracunless you're smoothing it with a robotic spatula or something, maybe22:57
-!- CautiousNarwhal [ad03d8c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.173.3.216.198] has joined ##hplusroadmap22:58
xentracthere are other binders that are immediately activated by pH or other hardeners like waterglass that might be less tricky to work with22:58
xentraclike some carrageenans and alginate22:58
xentracthere's been some work on gelcasting with carrageenan binders22:59
fenni think that's solidified with calcium chloride22:59
xentracalginate is; I forget the deal with carrageenan22:59
xentrachmm, some carrageenan gels will gel with calcium ions, like alginate23:00
xentracothers will gel with potassium ions23:00
xentrachttp://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y4765e/y4765e0a.htm#bm10 has more detail23:01
xentracalso somebody is using alginate to print organs: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2209798523:01
xentrackonnyaku is the pH-sensitive binder I was thinking of: http://www.konjacfoods.com/gum.htm23:02
xentracperhaps unfortunately a lot of these gels are thermoreversible (i.e. if you heat them up enough they melt, like Jell-O) but maybe if you dry them out before firing then that's not a problem23:03
xentracalkaline konnyaku gel is thermostable up to 200°23:03
-!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@195.114.243.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]23:04
xentracoh and yes people have gelcast alumina by activating alginate binders with calcium ions: https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=J7-Takvz7mcC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=alginate+gel+casting&source=bl&ots=8ALwJCZD7B&sig=vLhjQmiiR002HBxlceSB053saCQ&hl=es-419&sa=X&ved=0CHsQ6AEwDWoVChMIibb76YStxwIVyYmQCh23XQ5e#v=onepage&q=alginate%20gel%20casting&f=false23:05
xentracalso http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095522190100513123:05
xentracbut those aren't about 3-D printing23:05
-!- Gurkenglas [Gurkenglas@dslb-188-103-077-131.188.103.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]23:06
xentracoh and gelcasting alumina with carrageenan: http://library.iyte.edu.tr/tezler/master/malzemebilimivemuh/T001104.pdf23:06
xentracthat dissertation includes fairly complete recipes and physical property measurements23:08
CautiousNarwhalwhat are you guys talking about?23:10
xentracpossible 3-D printing processes for high-vacuum-safe precision parts23:11
CautiousNarwhaloh wow thats highly specific23:12
xentrac(or potentially for other purposes, such as machining inserts; and also other aspects of high vacuum)23:12
-!- ArturShaik [~ArturShai@195.114.243.161] has joined ##hplusroadmap23:20
fennmachining inserts seems a bit too ambitious23:31
xentracreally? why?23:31
xentracshould be simplicity itself23:31
xentracI mean it's a great deal simpler than a high vacuum system :)23:31
xentracp.35 of this pamphlet has a pure sorption pump using zeolite23:31
fenninserts need to be very uniform density to withstand thermal stress without fracturing along a discontinuity23:34
fennthey also need very good surface finish23:35
fennthey also need to be sharp23:35
xentracI guess you're right23:35
xentracthe second and third of those problems would be really hard to solve with a non-atomic additive process23:36
fennthey don't need to be razor sharp, but sharper than a typical FDM blob23:36
fennthey're compression sintered in molds, i'm not sure on the details23:37
fennmy 1960s engineering book says tungsten carbide is first pressed at 12-30 ton/in^2, then pre-sintered at 1400-1500F, then "forming" which seems to be some kind of rotary grinding process, then sintered 2400-2700F for 20-30min, then final grinding and lapping23:41
-!- xentrac [~kragen@adjuvant.canonical.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]23:43
-!- FAMAS [~FAMAS@unaffiliated/famas] has quit [Quit: Leaving]23:44
Alcyiushttps://aeon.co/essays/why-pregnancy-is-a-biological-war-between-mother-and-baby23:54
AlcyiusThis is a very interesting article23:54
--- Log closed Mon Dec 28 00:00:49 2015

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!