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| kanzure | "Temperature and temperament: evidence from a billion tweets" http://ei.haas.berkeley.edu/research/papers/WP265.pdf | 09:34 |
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| delinquentme | does anyone know of CMOS cameras are software-focusing? | 12:13 |
| xentrac | the fabrication technology of the focal plane sensor has nothing to do with the lens mechanics; they are entirely independent | 12:16 |
| xentrac | perhaps you mean "does a choice of CMOS as the focal plane sensor fabrication technology prevent you from using a camera design that captures enough information about the light field to refocus after taking the photo?" and in that case the answer is "no, it does not prevent that" | 12:17 |
| xentrac | AFAIK both Lytro and FlatCam use CMOS sensors, but they could just as easily use CCDs or for that matter a Vidicon, although in the case of FlatCam a Vidicon would sort of defeat the purpose | 12:19 |
| xentrac | what did you mean by your question? | 12:19 |
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| kanzure | 12:25 <+xentrac> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_free_lunch_in_search_and_optimization interesting, the same David Wolpert who just extended Landauer's bound to arbitrary computation proved an interesting theorem about the computational complexity of general optimization problems | 12:28 |
| kanzure | 12:26 <+kanzure> xentrac: http://no-free-lunch.org/ | 12:28 |
| kanzure | and http://beacon-center.org/ | 12:28 |
| xentrac | delinquentme: can you elaborate? | 12:31 |
| delinquentme | xentrac: simplified: why dont the CMOS cameras I'm looking at have adjustable focal distances | 12:31 |
| delinquentme | or a line saying what their focal distances are | 12:31 |
| delinquentme | im making guesses its because theyve got that lytro effect of ... IDK how it works | 12:32 |
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| xentrac | delinquentme: oh, it's probably because they have very small apertures and fixed-focus lenses, like old point-and-shoot cameras but more so | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | http://www.amazon.com/etomtop-Waterproof-Borescope-Inspection-adjustable | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | Focal distance: 6cm ~ infinite | 12:38 |
| xentrac | right | 12:38 |
| xentrac | Looking for something? | 12:39 |
| xentrac | We're sorry. The Web address you entered is not a functioning page on our site | 12:39 |
| xentrac | (amazon) | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | http://www.amazon.com/etomtop-Waterproof-Borescope-Inspection-adjustable/dp/B014G20JP8/ref=sr_1_86?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1452715648&sr=1-86&keywords=endoscope | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | derps | 12:40 |
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| xentrac | delinquentme: some cheap cameras like this incorporate autofocus logic that using a piezoelectric motor | 12:50 |
| xentrac | US$80 is plenty of budget for that | 12:50 |
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| xentrac | delinquentme: that also looks like a super awesome tool | 12:58 |
| xentrac | thank you :) | 12:59 |
| xentrac | http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html says that for a circle of confusion of 0.012mm (8mm ÷ 640), a focal length of 28mm, an f-stop of f/2.8, and a subject distance of 10 cm, your depth of field should run from 9.97 cm to 10.03 cm (although it doesn't display that correctly) | 13:06 |
| xentrac | so I suspect that either this camera uses an autofocus motor or what the page says about its depth of field and f-stop is false | 13:07 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: is there a clever way to mark an individual ikiwiki page as private/public? | 14:49 |
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| jrayhawk | For all three of HTTP access, filesystem access, and git access? | 15:00 |
| kanzure | http | 15:05 |
| kanzure | ideally some ikiwiki-level directive | 15:05 |
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| pasky | people tend to discover NFL theorem and then draw totally unwarranted conclusions from it - beware | 15:35 |
| kanzure | examples? | 15:37 |
| pasky | "machine learning is futile", "life is futile" etc.; in particular, that it's not possible to build a practical universal engine for optimization/estimation/inference | 15:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | what is NFL theorem? | 15:42 |
| pasky | 21:28 < kanzure> 12:26 <+kanzure> xentrac: http://no-free-lunch.org/ | 15:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | oh, derp | 15:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | theres no free lunch for anything | 15:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | everything is a series of tradeoffs | 15:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | the only thing that matters at the end of the day is that did it do what you wanted, and can you deal with the tradeoffs responsibly | 15:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | generically, this applies TO EVERYTHING | 15:44 |
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| kanzure | pasky: that's quite the conclusion to extract from no free lunch | 15:49 |
| kanzure | pasky: "hard work is hard" should never be a good reason to resort to nihilism. | 15:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah | 15:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | because, imo, and I know a lot of people are going to be like BAD DIABLO BAD | 15:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | if your excuse that you don't do work is because its hard | 15:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | its because you're lazy, not because its hard | 15:50 |
| xentrac | pasky: the great thign about that page is that it begins with Hume's general explanation of the theorem | 15:50 |
| xentrac | which you would hope would keep people from extrapolating too much from it | 15:50 |
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| xentrac | I was surprised (Baader-Meinhof) to discover that the same David Wolpert who recently published the new extension of Landauer's bound had proved the NFL theorem | 15:52 |
| xentrac | Diablo-D3: I think you may be confused about which subject area this theorem pertains to | 15:53 |
| pasky | xentrac: yes, I like that page I think | 15:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | xentrac: Im just being an asshole atm. | 15:55 |
| xentrac | oh, okay, never mind me then | 15:59 |
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| Diablo-D3 | [06:40:17] <pasky> "machine learning is futile", "life is futile" etc.; in particular, that it's not possible to build a practical universal engine for optimization/estimation/inference | 16:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | its just shit like that | 16:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | there is nothing that is futile | 16:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | futile is a poor man's way of saying difficult | 16:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | difficult doesn't mean impossible, it just means difficult | 16:02 |
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| Diablo-D3 | from what I saw of that NFL page | 16:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | it basically says that in a useful way | 16:04 |
| xentrac | no? | 16:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | how no? | 16:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | "This paper has three aims. Firstly, to clarify the poorly understood No Free Lunch Theorem (NFL) which states all search algorithms perform equally. Secondly, search algorithms are often applied to program induction and it is suggested that NFL does not hold due to the universal nature of the mapping between program space and functionality space. Finally, NFL and combinatorial problems are examined. When evaluating a candidate solution, it can be d | 16:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | iscarded without being fully examined. A stronger version of NFL is established for this class of problems where the goal is to minimize a quantity." | 16:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | I understand that as "NFL doesn't work because the 'right tool for the right job' trumps a lot of badly thought out early optimization bullshit" | 16:11 |
| xentrac | well, the NFL theorem doesn't say that anything is difficult. it says that something is impossible. | 16:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | xentrac: yeah, but the NFL theorem is wrong | 16:16 |
| kanzure | xentrac: for implanting cloth under your chest skin, perhaps instead consider bio-compatible plastics | 16:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | xentrac: nothing is straight up impossible | 16:16 |
| xentrac | UHMWPE is pretty biocompatible, no? | 16:16 |
| xentrac | Diablo-D3: you might want to look up the definition of "theorem" | 16:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | xentrac: it just requires more workarounds for the unwanted side effects | 16:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | In mathematics, a theorem is a statement that has been proven on the basis of previously established statements, such as other theorems—and generally accepted statements, such as axioms. A theorem is a logical consequence of the axioms. | 16:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | xentrac: I dunno, maybe I just have to read more about NFL | 16:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | but if NFL is just a methodology on how to early fail algos and processes based on specific requirements | 16:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | "impossible" has a narrowly defined, and more manageable, definition | 16:18 |
| xentrac | it's not | 16:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | then *what* is it | 16:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im not getting that part | 16:18 |
| xentrac | can't hel you | 16:19 |
| xentrac | help | 16:19 |
| xentrac | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomonoff%27s_theory_of_inductive_inference is also relevant | 16:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | I've read about that | 16:23 |
| kanzure | why haven't i banned this guy yet | 16:23 |
| superkuh | Because a little noise is useful in terms of stochastic resonance? | 16:24 |
| * xentrac ♥ stochastic resonance | 16:24 | |
| xentrac | Diablo-D3: I think you're going to have to work a lot harder to understand NFL, because at this point your level of effort is so low that any effort I put into trying to explain it will be wasted | 16:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | xentrac: so, if the NFL theorem states that if two algos produce the same results in the same amount of time, they are effectively the same, right? | 16:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | s/if// | 16:26 |
| xentrac | no; that's, in a way, a sort of premise on which it's based, not a statement of the result | 16:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_free_lunch_in_search_and_optimization | 16:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | xentrac: I mean, I look at programming and such from the view point of someone who programs, not someone who does math | 16:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | ergo, the best code I can write is one that uses the hardware most effectively | 16:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | so I don't understand this article in the way that Im pretty sure I was meant to | 16:28 |
| xentrac | or at all | 16:29 |
| xentrac | you can | 16:29 |
| xentrac | it'll be hard | 16:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | specialized algos that exploit the strengths of your hardware are largely preferable to generic ones that work well everywhere | 16:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | even though they generate the same result | 16:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | So... yeah. | 16:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | I think this is waaay beyond me. | 16:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im sorry I asked. | 16:30 |
| xentrac | It starts out beyond all of us. But we can grow mentally. There are super cool things out there you can grasp if you try :) | 16:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, but I swear to God I'm getting stupider | 16:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | When I was a kid I went out and read everything I could get my hands on | 16:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | And was constantly learning stuff | 16:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | And stuff made sense | 16:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | Now I read stuff and its like, what the hell, none of this makes any sense | 16:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | "I recognize some of these words" | 16:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wonder if I have early onset brain death. | 16:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | I mean, I learned how to program when I was 6 or 7 | 16:33 |
| xentrac | More likely you're distracted by things like calling yourself stupid and being afraid of being wrong | 16:33 |
| xentrac | or, I don't know | 16:34 |
| xentrac | girls | 16:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | mmmm boobs | 16:34 |
| xentrac | or boys | 16:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | "Running an implementation of an algorithm on a computer costs very little relative to the cost of human time and the benefit of a good solution. If an algorithm succeeds in finding a satisfactory solution in an acceptable amount of time, a small investment has yielded a big payoff. If the algorithm fails, then little is lost." | 16:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | That paragraph bothers me | 16:35 |
| xentrac | or talking on IRC | 16:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | That is basically saying its okay to spend inordinate amounts of time trying to optimize a solution further | 16:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | because the potential pay off wrt the loss is acceptable | 16:36 |
| AdrianG | sounds like an argument in favor of letting computers do brute force optimization | 16:36 |
| AdrianG | vs spending human time | 16:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | AdrianG: ahh, hrm | 16:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | that might be useful | 16:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | Ive seen computer-based evolution stuff produce incredibly interesting and optimized results | 16:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | like those weird 3D antennas that are compact, look like modern art, and massively out perform anything humans have ever made on our own | 16:37 |
| AdrianG | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-assisted_proof | 16:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | but the problem is, it goes back to what I was going to say | 16:37 |
| xentrac | yeah, that's the subject NFL pertains to, Diablo-D3 | 16:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | as a programmer, Ive learned that defining the problem correctly | 16:37 |
| xentrac | instead of talking more I think I will go see if I can hack together a program to do a particular optimization program I'm interested in though | 16:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | is faaaaar more important than optimizing it | 16:38 |
| xentrac | while that is (unlike most of what you've said above!) relevant to the problem we're talking about | 16:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | and the problem with a lot of academic brute force optimization work seems the computer keeps finding solutions that do what you want by the rules you gave it, but are not useful solutions because it breaks other constraints you didn't know you had until it broke them | 16:39 |
| xentrac | it turns out that for many real-world problems, even fairly crude definitions can be useful | 16:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | which turns into the basic "AI is going to destroy the world" problem | 16:39 |
| xentrac | yes, exploiting bugs in simulations is a constant problem with optimization | 16:39 |
| xentrac | you could consider overfitting as a particularly pervasive instance of that | 16:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | oh, like the one time the military tried to teach a computer to see enemy vs friendly tanks | 16:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | and it focused on the fact friendly tanks had blue skies, and enemy tanks had cloudy skies | 16:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | so a friendly tank and a cloudy sky was deemed an enemy tank | 16:40 |
| xentrac | yes, but they were photos with and without tanks, not friendly and enemy tanks | 16:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | oh | 16:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | maybe Im misremembering it | 16:41 |
| xentrac | a little | 16:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | its been awhile since I read it | 16:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | I might be merging two stories too | 16:41 |
| xentrac | that's not exactly overfitting | 16:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, overfitting to me is its paying attention to variables that don't pertain to the problem | 16:42 |
| xentrac | also it wasn't a computer | 16:42 |
| xentrac | it was a perceptron | 16:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | isn't that still ran on a computer of some sorts, though? | 16:43 |
| xentrac | possibly | 16:43 |
| xentrac | the first perceptrons did not run on computers | 16:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, they were like back in the 50s, right? | 16:44 |
| xentrac | yeah | 16:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | Yeah, I think I'd consider that an early computer in the sense that ASICs are "computers" | 16:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | not in the strict sense of general purpose computing | 16:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | actually it wouldnt even be an ASIC would it | 16:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | since IC is integrated circuit | 16:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | an ASDC? app specific discrete circuit? | 16:45 |
| xentrac | I think the usual term is "circuit" | 16:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dunno, an average person would see 50s hardware and call it a computer, even though its kinda not one | 16:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | and I find that usage acceptable | 16:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | aaaand I feel what I just said underlines a lot of problems in intelligence research | 16:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | humans rely on a combination of inclusive and exclusive fuzzy pattern recognition | 16:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | I have no clue how the hell humans actually function | 16:49 |
| xentrac | really? you think an average person confronted with a 1950s radio transmitter would call it a "computer"? | 16:49 |
| xentrac | overfitting is not at all the same as "paying attention to variables that don't pertain to the problem" | 16:49 |
| xentrac | although in some cases you can do both | 16:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | a 1950s radio transmitter might not be a computer, no | 16:50 |
| xentrac | a 1950s perceptron would look the same to an average person | 16:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | although radio transmitters today might be computers | 16:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | all the DSP work going on and such | 16:51 |
| xentrac | Dreyfus tells the tanks story on p.4 of http://www.jefftk.com/dreyfus92.pdf in 1992 | 16:52 |
| xentrac | I haven't been able to find an earlier source; he might have invented the sotry | 16:52 |
| xentrac | story | 16:52 |
| xentrac | maybe we should ask him | 16:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah thats the story! | 16:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats the one I was trying to think of, yeah, I misremembered it | 16:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dunno, this may be overly simplistic, but I don't true AI can happen until we can teach it concepts the way humans understand them | 16:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | an AI that can't understand the way the world looks to us may not produce behavior that we can actually understand as intelligent, although we'll see it is complex | 16:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | which is also why I find depictions of aliens in scifi weird | 16:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | true alien intelligence should be completely incomprehensible to us | 16:56 |
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| Diablo-D3 | we would not recognize them as intelligent except as a purely abstract notion of the concept | 16:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | like, ant colonies, as a whole, may fit some definition of intelligence | 16:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | but no individual ant is intelligent | 16:59 |
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| nmz787_i | xentrac: FWIW that borescope looks almost exactly like one I paid around $20 with no active focus, underwhelming LED light power, and seemingly fake specs on the resolution | 16:59 |
| nmz787_i | I would tell delinquentme too, but he is gone | 16:59 |
| * Diablo-D3 feels like he should get a shovel out, digging a hole would be faster with it | 17:00 | |
| nmz787_i | I was super excited that I would be able to use it with my phone via usbOTG (which works), but practically it isn't useful because the LEDs suck so bad | 17:00 |
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| Diablo-D3 | nmz787_i: so start hacking it and replace the LED? ;) | 17:00 |
| nmz787_i | maybe it would work in a small enclosed environment like a lock or something | 17:00 |
| nmz787_i | Diablo-D3: I bet it is all hermetically sealed, so it might rip apart if I tried anything | 17:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | oh, that'd suck | 17:01 |
| nmz787_i | shoving it past an electrical socket into a wall, I get about 2 or 3 inches of visibility from the LEDs | 17:02 |
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| nmz787_i | kanzure: are you living in/around NYC now? | 18:13 |
| maaku | he is not | 18:18 |
| nmz787_i | ah, no potential for genspace visits or such then | 18:36 |
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| cluckj | nmz787_i, what about genspace visits? | 19:14 |
| nmz787_i | oh just thought kanzure might have been in the neighborhood | 19:16 |
| nmz787_i | there is also something sebastian cocioba has been up to that looks like is getting a lot of steam put into the project | 19:17 |
| cluckj | oh? | 19:18 |
| nmz787_i | I just see lots of talk and pics sometimes | 19:18 |
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| cluckj | oh wow looks like bosslab has a new website | 19:24 |
| cluckj | and they acquired dennis :) | 19:26 |
| xentrac | hmm, before reading http://lesswrong.com/lw/dhg/an_intuitive_explanation_of_solomonoff_induction/ I had somehow missed that Solomonoff induction goes beyond being merely infeasibly slow; it's actually uncomputable | 19:27 |
| xentrac | I guess now I should read AIXI-tl | 19:28 |
| cluckj | I need a fucking job that will pay me to do stuff at genspace and bosslab again, that was really nice :/ | 19:30 |
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| kanzure | i don't think i'm allowed in genspace | 19:50 |
| cluckj | I don't think you're banned | 19:50 |
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| maaku | xentrac: don't waste your time on AIXItl | 20:19 |
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| xentrac | maaku: that's interesting — I didn't expect anyone to say that. what's wrong with it? | 22:49 |
| justanotheruser | ^I'm curious as well | 23:05 |
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