| --- Log opened Fri Jan 15 00:00:05 2016 | ||
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| nmz787_i | Diablo-D3: interesting link | 00:49 |
|---|---|---|
| maaku | drethelin ooh I want | 00:54 |
| xentrac | "Yudkowsky is a controversial figure. Mostly self-taught — he left school after eighth grade — he has written openly about polyamory and blogged at length about the threat of a civilization-ending A.I." | 01:22 |
| xentrac | I think the NYT is missing the point a bit here | 01:23 |
| xentrac | I don't think the people among whom Eliezer is controversial would even think of "writing openly about polyamory" as a possible reason to argue about him | 01:24 |
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| FourFire | xentrac, what's the most controversial thing about him from your perspective. | 01:35 |
| xentrac | well, I've never argued about him, myself | 01:39 |
| xentrac | but the things I see other people arguing about are whether he is arrogant and whether he is ignorant | 01:40 |
| xentrac | and of course kanzure thinks he's putting AI research in danger, but he's probably nearly the only person who thinks that | 01:41 |
| xentrac | (except for the ones who think that's a good idea) | 01:41 |
| xentrac | oh, and I guess I've seen some arguments about his attitudes about rape | 01:41 |
| xentrac | what do you think? | 01:42 |
| FourFire | attitudes about rape? | 01:44 |
| FourFire | I only know of one example where he wrote a story where he postulates that the future can be weird and have weird values, like "nonconsensual sex" being socially accepted. | 01:45 |
| FourFire | things can get sticky if you start claiming that every meaningful opinion held by characters in a story is also held by it's author. | 01:48 |
| FourFire | but then I don't follow EY's social networking drama. | 01:48 |
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| nmz787_i | .tell chris_99 fun idea: edge-detect video, trace edges with bright laser on wall for some low-res impromptu TV/movie showing | 02:03 |
| yoleaux | nmz787_i: I'll pass your message to chris_99. | 02:03 |
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| nmz787_i | hi chris_99 | 02:11 |
| chris_99 | hey | 02:11 |
| yoleaux | 10:03Z <nmz787_i> chris_99: fun idea: edge-detect video, trace edges with bright laser on wall for some low-res impromptu TV/movie showing | 02:11 |
| nmz787_i | like a single-color laser | 02:12 |
| chris_99 | heh that could be cool :) | 02:12 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, I feel like I should order 10 $2 esp8266 just to have around | 02:13 |
| nmz787_i | I also sort of want to hold out for the esp32 | 02:16 |
| chris_99 | heh, yeah i've got a number of the esp8266-12 | 02:29 |
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| chris_99 | i managed to get some output from the keyboard from a coil + usb sound card, i'm not sure if 44.1kHz is high enough yet to actually make any sense of the output - https://www.anfractuosity.com/projects/keyboard-hacking/ | 02:34 |
| nmz787_i | I heard about this $5 radar module earlier tonight http://www.rfbeam.ch/products/k-lc1a-transceiver/ | 02:40 |
| nmz787_i | apparently this tin-can radar guy was using a sound card for acquisition | 02:41 |
| nmz787_i | http://glcharvat.com/tincan/ | 02:42 |
| chris_99 | ooh cool | 02:44 |
| chris_99 | you can use soundcards for vlf recpetion too apparently | 02:44 |
| nmz787_i | FMCW is the best for low-cost, since post-processing/DSP is the magic: http://hackaday.com/2014/02/24/guest-post-try-radar-for-your-next-project/#attachment_115574 | 02:49 |
| nmz787_i | "For an FMCW radar, a CW oscillator is frequency modulated with a linear ramp. In other words, the CW oscillator starts at one frequency and ramps-up to a second over a relatively long period of time (0.5-10 uS). This waveform is radiated out of the transmit antenna towards the target scene. Some of this waveform is fed to the receiver mixer. What is scattered off the target is amplified by the LNA and fed into the receive mixer where | 02:50 |
| nmz787_i | mixed with the transmit waveform. The mixing product results in a low frequency (KHz range) beat tone that is proportional to range. The higher the frequency of beat tone the further the target. " | 02:50 |
| nmz787_i | but then you can also do doppler spectroscopy or something | 02:50 |
| nmz787_i | basically targets will have unique doppler shifts, so you can distinguish them | 02:50 |
| archels | nmz787_i: I am using one of those doppler modules, but mine's very noisy. any idea where to grab these rfbeam ones? | 02:54 |
| archels | (or any decent ones) | 02:57 |
| nmz787_i | no idea, but that hackaday article also mentions them | 03:04 |
| chris_99 | nmz787_i, did you see the tourbillon (sp?) watch 3d printed? | 03:04 |
| nmz787_i | I guess start on google and here: http://www.rfbeam.ch/contact/ | 03:05 |
| nmz787_i | oh, no | 03:05 |
| nmz787_i | lemme look it up | 03:05 |
| chris_99 | https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/a-major-step-forward-in-horological-additive-manufacturing-christoph-laimers-3d-printed-tourbillon | 03:06 |
| nmz787_i | I might try to convince this guy I know to try building a metal powder 3d printer (requires post sintering) | 03:07 |
| chris_99 | neat | 03:08 |
| nmz787_i | http://hackaday.com/2016/01/14/simplifying-metal-3d-printing-by-complicating-it/ | 03:10 |
| nmz787_i | juri_: did you see this http://hackaday.com/2016/01/14/simplifying-metal-3d-printing-by-complicating-it/ ?? | 03:11 |
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| archels | nmz787: I spent some time optimising this USB audio streaming interface for the doppler sensor, before realising that the noise was not due to my circuit but due to the doppler module itself | 03:19 |
| archels | anyway, just got PCBs in for the final version, should post about this in a few weeks | 03:19 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Soft%20materials%20in%20neuroengineering%20for%20hard%20problems%20in%20neuroscience%20-%202015.pdf | 06:55 |
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| juri_ | nmz787: cute, but i do not see examples of their work. ;) | 07:07 |
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| FourFire | > <pasky> so I hope you have some pretty clever ideas about how to make your evolutionary search work | 10:44 |
| FourFire | I've gotten some tips from someone who claims to have found a 3 bit adder with only 38 nand gates | 10:44 |
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| maaku | pasky: I think you're missing the intent. every approach to general learning has a specific domain of excellence and falls flat outside of that | 10:55 |
| maaku | I'm taking an integrative approach, which means a patchwork of various learning algorithms which attempt to work together to cover the entire domain | 10:56 |
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| pasky | so essentially what opencog is | 11:09 |
| pasky | FourFire: sure! also notice that it falls in the broad category i outlined, and notice that evolving anything general-purpose doesn't :) | 11:10 |
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| maaku | pasky: what opencog should be perhaps. mostly the CogPrime design with some components substituted | 11:15 |
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| nmz787_i | juri_: did you not see the PDF? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Tl7_OJADLwMWo4Y0ZxdHdOVGc/view | 12:14 |
| juri_ | nmz787_i: nice. that looks like work worth reproducing. | 12:16 |
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| pasky | maaku: I think we share the same goals; but my philosophy is to try solving some "hard" specialized tasks that'd be useful components of this system first, because (i) some of the components (at state-of-art) clearly are orders of magnitude off from what's needed; (ii) this might make some money which would set up a positive financial feedback loop | 14:50 |
| pasky | (iii) if i fail at agi, i'll still have done something useful per se | 14:51 |
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| Alcyius | Unintended problem of self-driving vehicles: When they're adopted widely, eventually, old people will just start arriving at places having expired on the ride. | 15:14 |
| Alcyius | Could you set the cars to monitor vital signs and self-direct to the nearest hospital? | 15:15 |
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| nmz787_i | Alcyius: that's a silly question, of course you could | 15:18 |
| Alcyius | Yeah you're right | 15:18 |
| Alcyius | I can just imagine the reactonaries though | 15:18 |
| Alcyius | "NSA monitoring your vital signs through your car, more on page 5" | 15:18 |
| nmz787_i | I'm not sure if I would want my parents to arrive at my house dead, or have a hospital coroner call me and tell me they died mid-trip | 15:19 |
| nmz787_i | meh, I assume the NSA is already doing that | 15:19 |
| TMA | the question is more a business/legal one: who will pay the most for (nearly) dead person delivery? the hospital? the undertaker? | 15:19 |
| Alcyius | TMA, why would they need to be "delivered", if it's their own car, it can take them where they need to go | 15:19 |
| nmz787_i | the blackmarket organ transplant market that hacked all the cars that month | 15:19 |
| Alcyius | Get to the hospital, be declared dead, put back in your car to go to the morgue. | 15:20 |
| Alcyius | Someone calls your next of kin | 15:20 |
| nmz787_i | Alcyius: I saw a weird quote that assumed self-driving cars would reduce personal car ownership... which seems silly too | 15:21 |
| TMA | Alcyius: you are assuming ownership of the car driving software -- that would probably not be the case. software is licensed not sold and the terms are mostly unilateraly set by the licensor (adhesion contract, blah blah) | 15:21 |
| nmz787_i | I don't want to sit in a public bus or taxi because sometimes they're gross | 15:21 |
| Alcyius | nmz787_i, also, those scenairios also predict that cars will just merge back into traffic and go to get more people, which makes powering them a bit more problematic than normal | 15:22 |
| Alcyius | But with auto-service gas stations, maybe not so much | 15:22 |
| Alcyius | I still think that most people who can will have their own | 15:22 |
| nmz787_i | you don't even need to fuel stations to be automated, just full-service with NFC credit card emitter near the fuel cap | 15:22 |
| Alcyius | TMA, that's simple, require software providers to allow free transportation should the licensee die en route to a destination | 15:22 |
| nmz787_i | or buy a car with customizable directives | 15:23 |
| Alcyius | Also, when cars today are commandeered for emergency use, the government doesn't have to pay the software company to use it | 15:23 |
| nmz787_i | I have seriously been looking for completely mechanical vehicles for my next vehicle purchase | 15:24 |
| Alcyius | That reminds me of something I was reading recently | 15:24 |
| nmz787_i | the 4BT diesel engine is pretty fuel efficient and a popular swap... though it has bad emissions by todays standards | 15:24 |
| TMA | isn't it like against one of the single digit amendments (no quartering of troops in peacetime)? | 15:24 |
| Alcyius | TMA, that only applies to making people house troops | 15:24 |
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| Alcyius | If there's say, a natural disaster, emergency response personnel can commandeer people and their vehicles/homes for the short term iirc | 15:25 |
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| Alcyius | There are probably other cases | 15:25 |
| nmz787_i | Alcyius: happens in movies all the time! | 15:25 |
| nmz787_i | "I NEED this vehicle!!" | 15:26 |
| Alcyius | http://aslme.org/media/downloadable/files/links/S/u/SupCS1135_4.pdf | 15:26 |
| Alcyius | It's dependent on the state actually | 15:26 |
| nmz787_i | I think the only 'new' vehicle that really interests me, that you can get in the USA... would be the tesla model X... but I would want a lift-kit installed, which I am not sure is (easily) possible, since it is likely (almost undoubtedly) a unibody with independent suspension | 15:28 |
| Alcyius | nmz787_i, I'm on the waiting list for an Elio, which is all I honestly need | 15:28 |
| nmz787_i | or something like a series-hybrid Ford F250 | 15:28 |
| nmz787_i | Alcyius: is that the one made in like Lousiana? | 15:29 |
| Alcyius | Yeah, my mom is a close friend with the real estate mogul who is financing a lot of their stuff | 15:29 |
| nmz787_i | "U.S. made by American workers at the former GM plant in Shreveport, Louisiana" | 15:30 |
| TMA | I think that the situation will be similar (but worse) to the smartphone. You might own the electrons, protons and neutrons but you do not own their spatial arrangement (design, software, ... which is intellectual property) | 15:30 |
| nmz787_i | seems like you could still hack your car like you can with your phone... but the laws if you get caught will probably be a LOT more harsh | 15:33 |
| Alcyius | Give me a bit, I have a picture with the guy | 15:33 |
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| Alcyius | I seem to have misplaced it | 15:39 |
| Alcyius | Odd | 15:39 |
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| Alcyius | Oh well, I'll get another one next time he visits town | 15:48 |
| Alcyius | Oh yeah, got an MRI the other day. | 15:48 |
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| FourFire | xentrac, awesome, I'd be interested in developing biologically extruded scales of--- strong but flexible material under the outermost layers of the skin, once I've completed/given up on my current longterm project | 16:02 |
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| FourFire | > <pasky> FourFire: sure! also notice that it falls in the broad category i outlined, and notice that evolving anything general-purpose doesn't :) | 16:07 |
| FourFire | not sure how relevant your categorization is, care to repeat it? | 16:08 |
| FourFire | Plenty of specialized things which can be useful. | 16:08 |
| pasky | 22:18 < pasky> xentrac: (for functions that aren't too highdimensional nor too lowdimensional, say 100-1000D, and have a very rugged landscape, methods based on genetic algorithms like BIPOP-CMA-ES are state-of-art; I think that's the most positive statement one can make about GA applicability) | 16:10 |
| FourFire | ok, I'll check that with the guy. | 16:11 |
| Alcyius | Self-driving cars w/microtransactions | 16:24 |
| drethelin | why would you need microtransactions | 16:32 |
| drethelin | are you driving like, a block? | 16:32 |
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| Alcyius | drethelin, Pay $1 to pass the car in front of you | 16:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28786-comets-cant-explain-weird-alien-megastructure-star-after-all/ | 16:43 |
| superkuh | If the comet was pluto sized it could. | 16:48 |
| Alcyius | http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2016/01/nano-shells-deliver-molecules-tell-bone-repair-itself | 17:15 |
| Alcyius | I love the comparison | 17:15 |
| Alcyius | "It's similar to a new supervisor ordering an office cleaning crew to start constructing an addition to the building." | 17:16 |
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| maaku | " he thinks even advanced aliens wouldn’t be able to build something capable of covering a fifth of a star in just a century" | 17:35 |
| maaku | Oh ye of little faith! | 17:35 |
| maaku | It seems quite reasonable that once Dyson sphere construction is progressing at enough of a pace that it causes noticable dimming, it could certainly be progressing at the rate of 0.2% per year | 17:40 |
| maaku | When are people going to internalize the fact that progress is exponential, or at the very least geometric at the limits... | 17:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | well | 17:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | I hope we could get in contact with them | 17:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | maybe they could help us take apart jupiter and saturn and all the shit in the asteroid belt and oort blob | 17:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | and build one of our own | 17:41 |
| maaku | pasky: what "hard" specialized tasks are you referring to? you mean in AGI or the larger hplus project? | 17:42 |
| * Diablo-D3 will never live to see anything cool =/ | 17:42 | |
| drethelin | gotta get frozen bro | 17:42 |
| drethelin | or do something cool yourself | 17:42 |
| maaku | Diablo-D3: you signed up for Alcor yes? | 17:42 |
| maaku | Diablo-D3: but hey man *I* call dibs on Jupiter | 17:43 |
| maaku | you can have Saturn. or Uranus | 17:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't believe in stuff like alcor | 17:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | it just seems like too much of a scam | 17:43 |
| maaku | alcor ain't a scam. maybe it won't work, but there ain't no intentional fraud going on there | 17:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, but I think they know it wont work | 17:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | but they do it anyhow because people want to pay for that service | 17:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're hopeful, but you know how the world works | 17:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | the human race is just too fucking disorganized to be useful | 17:44 |
| maaku | Diablo-D3: with other cryonics groups maybe, certainly that has been the case before. Alcor is quite transparent though and run by people that most definately do believe in it | 17:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | with the production output of the entire planet, there is no reason why we cant all have everything we ever wanted | 17:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | we could cure death in a century if we all got together and did it | 17:44 |
| maaku | Diablo-D3: we could do in in 30 years. or at least achieve escape velocity... | 17:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | instead we have a bunch of assholes running wall street, another bunch of assholes uselessly tweeting #blakclivesmater, another bunch of assholes building empty cities in the middle of china | 17:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | ANOTHER bunch of assholes growing corn and soy and other useless weeds | 17:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | assholes everywhere | 17:45 |
| maaku | hey man those empty cities power muh bitcoin miners! | 17:45 |
| * Diablo-D3 should just shut up, hes in a bad mood | 17:46 | |
| maaku | hahaha welcome to everyday man. the world's a shitty place. | 17:46 |
| maaku | that's why i want to move to jupiter.. | 17:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | well usually kanzure is around threatening to ban me | 17:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | so w/e | 17:47 |
| pasky | maaku: in AGI; I focus on question answering (http://ailao.eu/yodaqa), right these days working on https://www.kaggle.com/c/the-allen-ai-science-challenge/ | 17:48 |
| maaku | i wonder if one could reasonably harvest resources to create computronium from coronal mass ejections | 17:48 |
| maaku | probably not enough heavy elements | 17:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | like | 17:48 |
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| Diablo-D3 | the whole bad future shit where AI take over and murder all humans? | 17:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im not even sure if thats a bad thing | 17:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | if its sufficiently self-evolving and actually wants to preserve itself and spread amongst the stars | 17:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | its probably better off than the humans of today doing it | 17:49 |
| maaku | Diablo-D3: you've found the right channel | 17:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | I look at the average people today | 17:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont want them to leave earth | 17:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont want them to pollute the universe with their stupidity | 17:49 |
| pasky | btw someone here may find my slides with quick intro to memnns useful http://pasky.or.cz/pres/memnn.pdf though i'm not sure how well they actually work standalone | 17:50 |
| Houshalter | that's hugely irresponsible. it wouldn't just kill humans, but all life in earth, and all other stars | 17:50 |
| Houshalter | it would build a disneyworld with no children | 17:50 |
| maaku | pasky: well I mean my development plan involves starting with basic math, physics, chemistry, engineering problems and working my way through the curriculum of an engineering degree | 17:50 |
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| maaku | Houshalter has a fondness for humanity that we have not been able to shake ... | 17:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | Ive never had a fondness for humanity | 17:51 |
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| Diablo-D3 | I swear to god I have more in common with my cat than I do with other humans | 17:51 |
| maaku | pasky: certainly start simple an solve progressively harder problems makes sense | 17:52 |
| maaku | pasky: I just need the time and resources to actually work on it :\ | 17:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | Humanity is just a bunch of self serving dicks, none of them interested in the greater good | 17:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | always jerking off their egos, at the cost of everyone else | 17:52 |
| maaku | if someone else was wanting to work on a common framework I could spend some time organizing my thoughts since what I have is a bit out of date | 17:53 |
| pasky | last year i was in tokyo for three months trying to make computers solve SAT-like physics questions; one surprising lesson learned was that there isn't even a good existing solution for unassisted solving of equation systems (!) | 17:53 |
| Houshalter | i love my species. as a collective we are stupid and haven't figured out how to coordinate, but we've still done great thigns anyway. every year gets better and better | 17:53 |
| pasky | all the mathematicas and other symbolic systems expect you to tell them exactly what to do and massage the equations | 17:53 |
| maaku | pasky: all such systems bite off more than they can chew | 17:53 |
| maaku | it's OKAY for there not to be a general system -- that's why you've got a dozen different architecturally different solvers (genetic algorithms, probabalistic reasoning, deep learning) all using the same data structure to share effort | 17:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | and re: solving | 17:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | you cant even solve most systems | 17:54 |
| pasky | (iow, even when you reach a formal representation of the task, it's very hard to go from there; never mind getting from free input incl. diagrams etc. to the formal representation) | 17:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | because you have these weird subsets of math language | 17:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | it they were a language, there would be different dialects | 17:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | which as a programer, I dont understand why that exists | 17:55 |
| maaku | pasky: i wish goertzel wasn't slightly cookoo, and opencog not a shitty codebase, because both get in the way of his general integrative design which has potential | 17:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | code is code is code, its all the same no matter what language I use | 17:55 |
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| drethelin | lol | 17:56 |
| maaku | Houshalter: maybe. i don't have such a progress-oriented view | 17:56 |
| * Diablo-D3 wishes he could just program himself to be happy. | 17:56 | |
| maaku | Houshalter: there are ways where we get shittier and shittier, or at least the same as time goes by | 17:56 |
| maaku | it's a mixed bag | 17:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | maaku: well | 17:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | you want shitty? | 17:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | the entire silicon valley | 17:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | that entire fucking place should be burned to the ground | 17:57 |
| maaku | A future where we remain an imperfect society of flawed beings is a pretty shitty future :\ | 17:57 |
| pasky | maaku: so, I think what you say sounds superficially nice, but I have no idea how would I actually *apply* what you say to any practical task; I suggest that you actually try :) take a week vacation and try to solve some class of problems, I think you'll find a lot of unexpected very hard hurdles to solving even much smaller subset of what you picked | 17:57 |
| maaku | Diablo-D3: hey i live there! it's got some nice parts | 17:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | a bunch of useless shits that think shareholder value is an actual thing, that it actually exists, even as some third tier metric | 17:58 |
| maaku | pasky: yup will do | 17:58 |
| pasky | (that's another trouble, the variety of tasks there actually is even when you think you've got a well-defined subproblem is so astounding once you sit down and try to classify them) | 17:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | way at the bottom of the drop down scroll box you just put together with whatever popular web framework there is this week | 17:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | ruby coders: should all be shot | 17:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | node.js? them too | 17:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | and all the idiotic javascript shit? them too | 17:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | and anyone that uses bootstrap? yup | 17:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | and python for anything bigger than a shitty little script? them too | 17:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | anyone who doesnt sit down and think before they code? all put to death, each and every last one | 17:59 |
| maaku | Houshalter: would be nice for you to specify sometime what the ideal distant future would be, in the time of juptier brains and such | 17:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im not saying your code has to be bug free | 17:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | but it should at least fucking make sense | 17:59 |
| maaku | Diablo-D3: now you've wandered offtopic | 18:00 |
| pasky | Diablo-D3 reminds me that a nice application of my sentence classifier might be a sort of "smart /ignore" | 18:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | Heh | 18:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, you know whos writing your fancy AIs? | 18:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | these people | 18:00 |
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| Diablo-D3 | so, just remember that. | 18:00 |
| pasky | (if a person keeps flooding a channel with stuff and sometimes someone replies, you want to show just the particular message(s) the person replies to) | 18:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | pasky: I want the reverse | 18:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | if I ignore somebody | 18:01 |
| pasky | there are guys working on this that have nice #ubuntu dataset or somethign | 18:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | anyone talking to them gets those messages ignored too | 18:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | so no <someone else> guy I ignored: yeah, but that isn't true, because you're an idiot | 18:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | and the more they talk to that guy, the more likely they just become completely ignored | 18:03 |
| * Diablo-D3 would pay money for such a system | 18:03 | |
| pasky | maaku: my general reservation to the opencog approach is that the bot (animat? ??) is useless for most purposes until it gets *really* smart, there aren't many good checkpoints while you are making progress | 18:04 |
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| pasky | 'nite for now | 18:05 |
| Houshalter | "ruby coders: should all be shot [etc]" jesus dude. | 18:05 |
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| cluckj | zzz | 18:09 |
| Houshalter2 | maaku, "specify sometime what the ideal distant future would be, in the time of juptier brains and such" I really have no idea. Any attempt to design a utopia just ends up sounding creepy and undesirable. its something we will have to figure out when we get there | 18:09 |
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| maaku | Houshalter2 then I'm confused about what you're doing here? | 18:11 |
| maaku | What's the endgame? | 18:12 |
| Houshalter2 | build an FAI and then have it figure it out | 18:13 |
| Houshalter2 | live long enough to see it happen | 18:13 |
| maaku | Okay... "Have it figure it "out is a little underspecified. | 18:15 |
| Houshalter2 | well that's the hard part of building FAI | 18:16 |
| maaku | I'm pretty sure there is a circular dependence in there | 18:16 |
| Houshalter2 | i imagine it would start with an oracle that you can ask questions | 18:17 |
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| Houshalter2 | you could just ask such an AI what you should do, or what the best solution is to a problem | 18:17 |
| maaku | Aha now were getting somewhere. | 18:20 |
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| maaku | That is a reasonable approach. It is also not an FAI. | 18:20 |
| maaku | I personally don't need an artificial psychologist to know what I want though. | 18:21 |
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| maaku | Houshalter : figure out what you want, then work towards that. It ain't that hard. | 18:28 |
| maaku | In my experience FAI is a trap for those who don't know what they want. | 18:29 |
| Houshalter | well an oracle could help you solve problems, including helping construct an FAI, or curing cancer, or taking over the world, or whatever | 18:29 |
| maaku | Yup that's why I'm working on one. | 18:31 |
| maaku | Except the FAI part. I find that part uninteresting. Frightening, actually. | 18:33 |
| maaku | *undesirable | 18:34 |
| Houshalter | no way around it though. eventually humans won't be the most powerful intelligences on earth. | 18:35 |
| maaku | Depends on what you mean by human. | 18:36 |
| maaku | Hplus is in the title of this channel | 18:36 |
| maaku | Humans will not be limited by their biology forever. | 18:37 |
| maaku | Whatever power you imagine an AI wielding, a human could as well. | 18:37 |
| Houshalter | well not easily, and i'm not really sure they'd be human afterwards | 18:43 |
| maaku | What ever definition of "human" you were using in that sentence I find uninteresting. | 18:45 |
| maaku | They continue to exist with wants, desires, and needs. | 18:46 |
| maaku | I'm not the same type of creature I was as a baby. | 18:49 |
| maaku | Future planetary brain hive mind component derived from me will be even more different than I am from baby maaku. But it's still me. | 18:51 |
| Houshalter | well all i can say is i don't want that. i don't think it would still be me, and even if it was i don't think it would be desirable | 18:58 |
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| kanzure | aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa | 20:14 |
| kanzure | so much cortisol | 20:14 |
| justanotheruser | you're taking steroids? | 20:15 |
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| drethelin | cortisol is a stress hormone | 21:00 |
| drethelin | kanzure is probably freaking about how bitcoin is about to die | 21:01 |
| kanzure | no this is just regular scheduled aaaaaaa taste of cortisol got to get it out of my mouth | 21:26 |
| maaku | Houshalter: changes will be incremental. Each incremental change would be an improvement or I wouldn't make it. By induction , I will want my future self. | 21:27 |
| maaku | The person I want to be now is not the person I wanted to be as a teenager. I consider that to be a good thing. | 21:28 |
| maaku | It's people who want to stay frozen in time, or worse have some external all powerful entity enforce a frozen moral (a nightmare scenario) that I don't understand | 21:29 |
| maaku | drethelin: you must be new to bitcoin | 21:30 |
| maaku | Business as usual. | 21:30 |
| kanzure | death is relative. there are many forms of survival that i am prepared to accept. | 21:31 |
| lkjhfr | levels of survival | 21:33 |
| kanzure | wtf google says this is a quote from the matrix? | 21:33 |
| kanzure | huh.... | 21:33 |
| kanzure | "During their conversation, Neo claims that the machines cannot allow humanity to be destroyed as they are using them for power and thus could not survive if they were killed. In response, the Architect, although his face remains unmoved, states in a grave voice, "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept."" | 21:34 |
| lkjhfr | learning wouldn't make much sense if we were conscious of it at all times | 21:36 |
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| Houshalter | maaku, you have no idea what you'd be changing into. just because you can make a change doesn't mean it's good. this isn't something to rush into without lots of planning and thought | 21:56 |
| Houshalter | I believe that superintelligent humans would likely be bored, depressed, or wire headers. or some combination of them. | 21:57 |
| drethelin | why | 21:58 |
| drethelin | claim 1: there exist people who are both far more intelligent than you right now | 21:58 |
| drethelin | claim 2: not all of these people are bored, depressed, or wireheading | 21:58 |
| lkjhfr | because hhgttg | 21:59 |
| drethelin | this implies there is a discontinuity at some theoretical level | 21:59 |
| drethelin | past people who exist | 21:59 |
| nmz787_i | Houshalter: I sort of only agree if we learned everything... and exhausted 'art'istic outlets... which seems like it could take almost infinitely long | 21:59 |
| maaku | Houshalter every single day we are learning and "maturing" in various ways that make is totally different people over time. Why are you not freaked out over that? | 21:59 |
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| nmz787_i | and most likely we would have to be at a hive-mind state of being, otherwise any one person would have too much communication lag or connectivity to bring all portions of the dataset into perspective at the same time | 22:01 |
| kanzure | honestly there is a lot of value to be had from being extremely dumb while also running multiple copies or backups. this has nothing to do with intelligence. | 22:01 |
| nmz787_i | so it would never seem complete | 22:01 |
| Houshalter | drethelin, there are people who have higher iqs, but that's nothing compared to superintelligence | 22:08 |
| Houshalter | maaku, i am. but i won't change inot a different person, even over a thousand years. i will learn a lot, but my brain structure and personality will be about the same | 22:09 |
| Houshalter | going to superintelligence is just creating an entirely idfferent being that has your memories | 22:10 |
| maaku | nmz787_i : the experience of artistic works are combinatorial. There is a practically infinite number of experiences to be had | 22:10 |
| maaku | (You can change both the work and viewer) | 22:10 |
| Houshalter | there might be an infinite number of experiences, but there is not an infinite amount of novelty | 22:10 |
| Houshalter | humans crave novelty, not brute forcing the search space | 22:11 |
| maaku | Houshalter I don't think you are as static as you think | 22:11 |
| maaku | Houshalter : you can modify both the work and the set of experiences the viewer brings to it | 22:12 |
| nmz787_i | maaku: yeah but practically doesn't compare well to (probably) infinite time to go through permutations... I think the lack of being able to keep everything (i.e. the history of all prior permutations) would be limiting before you get to the end of the list | 22:13 |
| maaku | Unfortunately our universe is finite :( | 22:13 |
| Houshalter | not necessarily | 22:14 |
| maaku | Houshalter: try having kids for example, or just falling deeply in love with someone. Alters you being entirely in a way which is incrementally good at each step | 22:14 |
| maaku | I don't know what sort of planetary hive mind consciousness I will become in the millennia ahead of is, but I welcome it with open arms -- so long as *I* am in control of that future. | 22:16 |
| maaku | At each step along the way. | 22:16 |
| maaku | And my requirements now are not complicated. I don't want to die. I don't want my loved ones to die. And I want to remain in control of my own fate. | 22:17 |
| nmz787_i | haha, well I bet some ppl go through hell having kids | 22:18 |
| maaku | Don't need an FAI for that -- in fact an "friendly" AGI as sought by x-riskers is a danger to those goals | 22:18 |
| justanotheruser | /win 87 | 22:23 |
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| nmz787_i | http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2016/01/13/one-stop-shop-for-biofuels/ | 22:30 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 22:30 |
| yoleaux | One-Stop Shop for Biofuels | Berkeley Lab | 22:30 |
| nmz787_i | “Our new one-pot process for making cellulosic ethanol was enabled by the discovery and use of a renewable ionic liquid derived from amino acids that commercially available enzyme mixtures and organisms can tolerate,” says Simmons, a chemical engineer who is JBEI’s Chief Science and Technology Officer and heads the institute’s Deconstruction Division. “This eliminates the need for separations, recoveries and other operational steps, gen | 22:31 |
| nmz787_i | significant cost savings.” | 22:31 |
| nmz787_i | The renewable ionic liquid to which Simmons refers is one made from lignin and hemicellulose, two by-products of biofuel production from biorefineries. The discovery of the unique properties of this “bionic” liquid was also led by Singh and Simmons.“Using bionic liquids in our new one-pot high-gravity process we were able to increase biomass digestibility and obtain ethanol titer yields of 41.1 grams/liter, which exceeds the production | 22:33 |
| nmz787_i | distillation required for industrial ethanol production,” | 22:33 |
| lkjhfr | have you seen this though: http://www.electrofuels.org/ ? | 22:43 |
| nmz787_i | not that particularly, will check it out | 22:45 |
| nmz787_i | i did an internship at JBEI though, so I know a bit about the subject overall | 22:45 |
| nmz787_i | haven't kept up with latest news too much in the past few years though | 22:45 |
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| Houshalter | maaku, don't get the wrong impression of FAI. it doesn't mean it will take control away from humans. it could, but it doens't have to mean that if we don't want that. an FAI could use it's powers any number of ways to help humans, including helping us increase our intelligence - if that is what we want. or even letting us take our own path and work it out for ourselves, just guiding us a bit and removing really bad things | 22:47 |
| Houshalter | like death and extreme suffering | 22:47 |
| lkjhfr | has anyone clicked on this link i gave? | 22:49 |
| maaku | Houshalter: FAI is so under specified that neither you nor anyone else has any idea what it would do | 22:51 |
| Houshalter | lkjhfr, that's super cool | 22:51 |
| lkjhfr | i am wondering how hard could i be to engineer these nanowires into plants to separate spatially energy collection from carbon fixation | 22:52 |
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| Houshalter | lkjhfr, isn't it a bit inefficient to convert solar to electricity, then feed it to bacteria. why not use photosynthesizing organisms directly? | 22:52 |
| lkjhfr | to make not only combines, but also solar cells, unnecessary | 22:52 |
| maaku | Right now it is a magical box that does everything you think is good and doesn't do anything you think is bad. | 22:52 |
| lkjhfr | because after you harvest, there is no plant to collect the incident energy | 22:53 |
| lkjhfr | it's a higher efficiency per area of land | 22:54 |
| Houshalter | maaku, yes. it would have to have our values exactly, and maybe even limitations on top. we don't know what those are | 22:54 |
| maaku | The problems with that are twofold: 1. Over constrained to the point of being impossible. 2. What I value as good/bad is not the same as you | 22:54 |
| Houshalter | lkjhfr, what about cyano bacteria though | 22:54 |
| maaku | Houshalter from this conversation alone I'm pretty sure we don't match values. From a cursory look at history I know this to not be the case in general. | 22:55 |
| Houshalter | i don't know what you mean with 1. 2 is unavoidable. peoples values are different | 22:55 |
| maaku | So your FAI is a threat to me and vice versa | 22:55 |
| Houshalter | lkjhfr, the only issue i see with microorganism farming, is that they can evolve faster than we can apply selection. The ones that reproduce the fastest get selected, not the ones that produce what you want them too. Or easily get contaminated with foreign bacteria that outcompete them, by not producing the product at all. you would have to have a really efficient mechanism for sterilizing sections of the farm and replaing | 22:57 |
| Houshalter | it with better stock periodically | 22:57 |
| Houshalter | maaku, possibly. i don't know how much humans actually have different fundamental values, and even if we do the universe is still pretty big to let them go their seperate ways | 22:58 |
| Houshalter | anyway it's inevitable unless you can stop superintelligences, the first superintelligence is going to vastly over power everything else and enforce it's values | 22:59 |
| lkjhfr | i just love the idea how the carbon fixation can be separated using this | 22:59 |
| Houshalter | lkjhfr, yeah if they could get this to work, it might be super cheap too. you could cheaply produce vast amounts of protien, sugar, etc, driving down food prices | 23:00 |
| lkjhfr | that's what came to my mind at the first point when i saw this research | 23:01 |
| Houshalter | i wonder if the government would pay to cover large areas with it to sequester carbon. i wonder how much area you would need to cover. probably a lot | 23:01 |
| maaku | Houshalter you are making assumptions about the structure of an AGI that aren't generally true | 23:01 |
| maaku | What you would call oracle ai doesn't act that way | 23:01 |
| lkjhfr | but if plants could be engineered to produce electricity instead of fixing carbon, this would offer a complete, awesome, solution | 23:02 |
| maaku | And furthermore the same argument could be applied with humans as the self improving intelligence... | 23:02 |
| Houshalter | maaku, oracle AIs have no values to enforce. but any agent using one could use it to do the same thing though | 23:03 |
| Houshalter | lkjhfr, it might be possible, but it wouldnt' be very efficient compared to solar panels. solar panels are already more efficient than land plants | 23:04 |
| lkjhfr | than what exactly about land plants? | 23:05 |
| lkjhfr | because from what google told be, it seems that carbon fixation is the main bottleneck | 23:05 |
| Houshalter | lkjhfr, energy collection i mean, not carbon fixation. | 23:06 |
| lkjhfr | but... it would be... like pandora... from avatar... *.* | 23:08 |
| lkjhfr | without the need for a factory | 23:10 |
| lkjhfr | https://www.geobacter.org/ is the main page of the group doing this research | 23:19 |
| lkjhfr | the first thing to do would be to grow these nanowires as long as possible and check their characteristics | 23:20 |
| lkjhfr | those people were funded by DOE, it isn't likely that they will try making food with that | 23:31 |
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| Diablo-D3 | .title http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-35323237 | 23:57 |
| yoleaux | Japan: 'Water bear' reproduces after 30 years on ice - BBC News | 23:57 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jan 16 00:00:06 2016 | ||
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