2016-03-10.log

--- Log opened Thu Mar 10 00:00:55 2016
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kanzurevernor vinge talking about anarchism stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzRuPGnJxCs&feature=youtu.be&t=52m25s05:28
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kanzure.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbv9L-WIu0s05:35
yoleauxBloat: How and Why UNIX Grew Up (and Out) - Rusty Russell,Matt Evans - YouTube05:35
kanzurereceived an email from lesnikof2010@gmail.com asking about the tdt oligonucleotide dna synthesis technique05:38
kanzurei think they are referring to http://2014.igem.org/Team:Cooper_Union/TdT_project05:38
kanzureoh good that tdt project was masterminded by oliver medvidik (genspace) so i'll just send the email to oliver instead05:44
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kanzure" '"Zayner's campaign is worrisome because it does not seem to comply with the DIYbio.org code of conduct."' Really, is the ODIN now being portrait as a rogue DIYBio shop? To me his initiative embodies much more what DIYBio is about, than a code-of-conduct from 2011."05:47
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cluckjkanzure, link?05:52
cluckjcause I didn't realize the DIYbio code of conduct was binding05:52
cluckjor inclusive of all "amateur" activities...05:53
kanzureit's not binding, and many of us including me have yelled at them vigorously for even trying that bullshit05:55
kanzurethis is re: http://www.nature.com/news/governance-learn-from-diy-biologists-1.1950705:55
cluckjoh todd's new article05:55
cluckjyeah...05:57
kanzurethey always wanted diybio.org to be big brother or little sister, and i was always there to drop a smelly shit on them telling them they are fucking idiots05:57
kanzurepieter boheemen asks ""establish appropriate norms for government funding and regulatory agencies, for people working both within and outside conventional research settings, for the directors of community labs and for the developers of crowdfunding platforms" is this a suggestion to try and control the funding of DIYBio activities and subject it to some kind regime?"05:58
cluckj"Of course, community norms will have little effect on the behaviour of rogue individuals who are intent on causing mischief or harm." FTFY: "Of course, community norms will have little effect on the behaviour of individuals."05:58
kanzureright... it's just completely nonsensical to have this organization focused on advocating for individualism, while trying to impose the will of a collective. they are worse than morons.05:59
cluckjnah05:59
kanzurenot much of a rebuttal06:00
cluckjI06:01
cluckjI'm busy with the kid...06:01
cluckjI mean...organizations will be organizing -- the folks who are invested in maintaining the organization are also invested in the code of conduct, in part because it provides a way to argue against direct oversight and regulation of individuals06:05
cluckjso it's not exactly anti-individual for DIYbio to have a code of conduct?06:06
cluckjfolks like todd are arguing for something like "self-regulation" of DIYbio and pointing at this code06:06
cluckjI do think it's kinda weaksauce to call out josiah's project as "troubling" because of some really really minor safety issue06:06
pompolici'm uninformed on this subject, but i have an observation: they are already branding people and organizations "rogue", who don't abide06:07
cluckjyeah06:07
cluckjwho are the "they" though?06:07
kanzurehaha just found phreedom, he is in #nixos hanging out, haven't seen him since 2011 i thought he was dead06:07
pompolicwhoever is being quoted as such06:08
kanzurepompolic: heh06:08
pompolicsorry for the tautology. i meant to leave that undefined06:08
cluckj^06:11
cluckjthat's exactly why I'm asking that06:12
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cluckjit matters a lot who is making those claims06:12
kanzurediybio.org was started by mac cowell and jason bobe and they always had some sort of pro-governance perspective06:13
cluckjtodd is a researcher on diybio, and his project is about sort of about regulating it06:13
kanzureif you have weak leaders, then you are already screwed06:13
cluckjscrewed for what?06:15
cluckjI think that 'diybio' is a set of practices that are adjacent to traditional (institutionalized) scientific norms, not necessarily the organization itself06:16
Aurelius_Workbut the organization seems to be trying to conflate the practice and the organization06:17
cluckjjosiah could be questioning the sometimes-silly norm of "NO FOOD NEAR SCIENCE" by keeping those organisms next to his sandwiches?06:17
cluckjlol06:17
cluckjI really want to say there is no "organization"06:18
cluckjthere are organizations around "diybio," and diybio is organized06:19
kanzureAurelius_Work: right06:19
Aurelius_Workthere is an organization that called itself diybio.org06:19
Aurelius_Workexcept they drop the .org part usually when discussing it06:19
kanzurecluckj: specifically there are people going to regulators and saying "we represent diybio.org, we have a 501c3 and a code of conduct and we ostracize and govern people"06:19
kanzureAurelius_Work: precisely....06:19
cluckjkanzure, whoooooo06:19
kanzurecluckj: mac and jason etc etc06:20
Aurelius_Workdidn't they also spawn grindhouse?06:20
kanzureno06:20
cluckjkanzure, yeah06:20
kanzuregrindhouse is awful for totally unrelated awful reasons06:20
cluckjI think they're doing that to keep regulators sated and off the backs of diybio practicioners, not for any "we are in charge of this thing" reasons06:21
cluckjit's like h+ suggesting that they are the ones in charge of the concept of transhumanism?06:24
cluckjif h+ were called "transhumanists" or something06:27
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kanzurecluckj: inriguingly, there is a group of transhumanists claiming they are in fact in charge of transhumanism, i think his name is loremaster and he refuses to let others edit the transhumanism wikipedia article06:44
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T0BIhi everyone06:50
kanzuregreetz06:51
T0BIwhat are u talking about here guys?06:51
kanzurethe left twisting peptide arm of rna polymerase06:59
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cluckjkanzure, lol07:05
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archels_http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/fullday/07:39
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JayDuggerHarrumph.08:30
maakuhttp://www.infoq.com/articles/interview-schmidhuber-deep-learning08:48
maaku.title08:48
yoleauxWill AI Surpass Human Intelligence? Interview with Prof. Jürgen Schmidhuber on Deep Learning08:48
kanzurehrm i am confused whether an internet connection is allowed during a "turing test"08:49
maakuInternet did not exist when term was coined08:51
kanzureyeah but... uh... seems like we should decide whether to allow internet connections?08:53
kanzurealso, his page on creativity is very wordy, like all his other pages- http://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/creativity.html08:53
kanzurei think he should just say "entropy, yo" and "errors and failures causing novel combinations and arrangements" and be done with it08:53
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kanzurehrm he at least seems to recognize the utility of self-regulation and feedback08:55
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maakuSeems like we should denounce the Turing test as a horrendously bad idea08:57
maakuIt involves creations an AGI explicitly designed to deceive its creators. Even I take issue with that08:57
maakuTuring lived in a naïve time where human thought was considered a ceiling08:58
kanzurethe inverse of the turing test is equally useless-- convince someone that the chatter is not human. how do that? a human can type almost anything. the test is stupid.08:58
kanzure*how to do that?08:58
kanzure.title http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2013.00313/abstract08:59
yoleauxFrontiers | PowerPlay: Training an Increasingly General Problem Solver by Continually Searching for the Simplest Still Unsolvable Problem | Cognitive Science08:59
kanzureor er hosted on arxiv http://arxiv.org/abs/1112.530908:59
maakuConvince someone the chatter is superhuman?09:00
kanzure"Deep Learning in Neural Networks: An Overview. Neural Networks" http://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/DeepLearning8Oct2014.pdf (long review)09:00
maakuThat doesn't work because kanzure would be a false positive09:01
cluckjnah09:01
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maakuEh. I question the utility of the test anyway. What do you learn by faking being a human being? Nothing. Measure functional metrics if you must measure anything.09:10
kanzurethere was a paper from a while back called "universal psychometric tests" which was trying to figure out a way to measure cognitive ability of programs of some length09:11
kanzureunfortunately the question remains difficult and the answers nebulous or equally useless09:12
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/Measuring%20cognitive%20abilities%20of%20machines,%20humans%20and%20non-human%20animals%20in%20a%20unified%20way:%20towards%20universal%20psychometrics.pdf09:12
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maakuIf someone were interested in this I think tasks like learning the rules and optimal strategy for randomly generated games09:48
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maakuBeing AI though you can do things like repeat the same task from a clean slate memory09:51
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Taekit may be that it's much more energy efficient to not switch to a clean slate. So much of biology is oriented around preserving energy.10:11
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kanzureTaek: have you read this? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf10:12
TaekI have not. Incidentally, it looks like I'll be on airplanes for about 80 hours over the next 6 weeks, so I can probably bang it out.10:14
kanzureTaek: then i have some other recommendations as well,10:15
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/How%20hard%20is%20artificial%20intelligence%3f%20Evolutionary%20arguments%20and%20selection%20effects%20-%20Shulman%20-%20Bostrom.pdf10:15
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kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/Starivore%20extraterrestrials%20-%20Interacting%20binary%20stars%20as%20macroscopic%20metabolic%20systems%20-%20Clement%20Vidal.pdf10:16
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Designing%20scalable%20biological%20interfaces%20-%20Marblestone.pdf10:16
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/DNA%20methylation%20in%20memory%20formation%20-%20emerging%20insights%20-%202015.pdf10:16
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Millisecond-timescale,%20genetically%20targeted%20optical%20control%20of%20neural%20activity%20-%20Boyden.pdf10:16
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Soft%20materials%20in%20neuroengineering%20for%20hard%20problems%20in%20neuroscience%20-%202015.pdf10:16
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Orbiting%20rainbows%20-%20optical%20manipulation%20of%20aerosols%20and%20the%20beginnings%20of%20future%20space%20construction%20-%20NASA.pdf10:16
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/space/Image%20restoration%20from%20a%20sequence%20of%20random%20masks.pdf10:16
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/black-holes/Black%20holes:%20attractors%20for%20intelligence%3f.pdf10:17
kanzurealright well that's enough for at least 1 of those hours.... not sure about the other 79.10:17
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maakulol10:32
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heathhttp://www.nature.com/articles/srep20529 Novel Method for Neuronal Nanosurgical Connection10:35
kanzure"We describe a novel laser application, utilizing femtosecond laser pulses, in order to connect neuronal axon to neuronal soma. We were able to maintain cellular viability, and demonstrate that this technique is universal as it is applicable to multiple cell types and media."10:39
heath.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn5qgEqWgW810:39
yoleauxHow does DNA fold? The loop extrusion model - YouTube10:39
heath.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dES-ozV65u410:40
yoleauxA 3D Map of the Human Genome - YouTube10:40
heath.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSGrRmJwp9Y10:43
yoleauxA Custom Home for Stem Cells - YouTube10:43
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kanzure"A theory of ambulance chasing" re: subatomic particle physics and recent baboonery http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.01204 re: http://www.nature.com/news/who-ordered-that-1.1951410:44
maaku.title http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/ai-visionary-eliezer-yudkowsky-on-the-singularity-bayesian-brains-and-closet-goblins/10:54
yoleauxAI Visionary Eliezer Yudkowsky on the Singularity, Bayesian Brains and Closet Goblins - Scientific American Blog Network10:54
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kanzure"What, literal immortality?  Literal immortality seems hard.  Living significantly longer than a few trillion years requires us to be wrong about the expected fate of the expanding universe.  Living longer than, say, a googolplex years, requires us to be wrong about the basic character of physical law, not just the details. Even if some of the wilder speculations are true and it's possible for our universe to spawn baby universes, that ...11:00
kanzure... doesn't get us literal immortality.  To live significantly past a googolplex years without repeating yourself, you need computing structures containing more than a googol elements, and those won't fit inside a single Hubble volume. And a googolplex is hardly infinity.  To paraphrase Martin Gardner, Graham's Number is still relatively small because most finite numbers are very much larger.  Look up the fast-growing hierarchy if you ...11:00
kanzure... really want to have your mind blown, well, eternity is longer than that.  Only weird and frankly terrifying anthropic theories would let you live long enough to gaze, perhaps knowingly and perhaps not, upon the halting of the longest-running halting Turing machine with 100 states."11:00
kanzure"But I'm not sure that living to look upon the 100th Busy Beaver Number feels to me like it matters very much on a deep emotional level.  I have some imaginative sympathy with myself a subjective century from now.  That me will be in a position to sympathize with their future self a subjective century later.  And maybe somewhere down the line is someone who faces the prospect of their future self not existing at all, and they might be ...11:00
kanzure... very sad about that; but I'm not sure I can imagine who that person will be.  "I want to live one more day.  Tomorrow I'll still want to live one more day.  Therefore I want to live forever, proof by induction on the positive integers."  Even my desire for merely physical-universe-containable longevity is an abstract want by induction; it's not that I can actually imagine myself a trillion years later."11:00
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archels_.wik Hubble volume11:12
yoleaux"In cosmology, a Hubble volume, or Hubble sphere, is a spherical region of the Universe surrounding an observer beyond which objects recede from that observer at a rate greater than the speed of light due to the expansion of the Universe. The Hubble volume is approximately 1031 cubic light years." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_volume11:12
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maaku1031 cubic light years? that's crazy small11:31
maakuoh 10^3111:31
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Taekif you invoke infinity it's pretty much guaranteed that you'll repeat states endlessly, unless you are growing in size. But even then, any sufficiently small subset of you will be identical to subsets of the past13:19
Taekif consciousness is limited to what happens inside an object as small as the brain, you've only got so much you can possibly experience13:20
Taekthen you start repeating yourself13:20
kanzurewhen eliezer is talking about infinity he is definitely not talking about things confined inside of human heads13:20
Taeksure13:21
TaekBut I do wonder if there's some limit to how magnified a consciousness can become13:21
Taek*assuming consciousness has a physical manifestation, etc.13:21
kanzurewould it surprise you to hear that i don't believe in consciousness?13:21
kanzurei don't think it exists.13:21
Taekmaaku had warned me at some point13:21
kanzuregod damn it maaku :P13:21
TaekConsciousness as I define it absolutely exists, I know because I think, and that thought which I can cling to fits my definition of consciousness13:22
Taekas poor of a definition as that may be13:22
kanzurewikipedia article on consciousness says that none of the definitions have been helpful13:22
kanzure"Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon: it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it has evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.[21]"13:23
kanzureseems like useless idea. your brain does information processing tasks, and it's probably not "because consciousness".13:23
Taekwell, I certainly don't see how an improved understanding of consciousness would help you with survival13:23
archels_consciousness as a term has been subdivided and defined in various more precise ways13:23
kanzuredon't listen to archels he's a dualist sympathizer    :P13:24
archels_how dare you13:25
archels_the word mind doesn't even exist in my dictionary13:25
maakuconsciousness should be tabood from everyone's vocabulary13:27
kanzurehooray13:28
archels_don't mention the q-word13:28
maakuoh god I hope we don't have any epiphenomenalists in here13:29
maakuthere are some useful concepts that people refer to as 'consciousness', and some truly stupid concepts too. we'd be better to not use the word and define what we mean13:30
kanzureusually i would pipe up and say wakefulness right about now, but unfortunately i have found that i can type in my sleep13:30
maakuyeah see right there? wakefulness is not what I mean when I refer to consciousness, nor Taek either I think13:31
kanzureright right, i'm sure neither of you meant it, but i would say wakefulness can be easier to define sometimes unless you type in your sleep13:32
maakuright13:32
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paskygood! i also don't believe in consciousness; and for any particular concrete definition of consciousness i've seen, it's possible to implement a degenerate version of it as a simple program13:40
maakupasky: cognitive discord much?13:40
maaku"i also don't believe in consciousness" ... "it's possible to implement a degenerate version of it as a simple program"13:41
kanzurehe means "for any particular definition i've seen"13:45
kanzureas in, he has not seen a concrete definition where it's not the case13:45
paskyi hoped i could have been brief; i don't believe in the abstract notion of consciousness as some secret sauce of "true intelligence" (...which we can then try to precisely define, but <the part after semicolon>)13:46
paskythe concept just doesn't seem necessary13:46
maakugood, neither do I!13:47
maakubut the cogito ergo sum is still real13:48
maakukanzure: causailty is backwards. one has consciousness _because_ the brain does information processing tasks...13:52
maakuand my definition is simple : "experiences shit that happens"13:53
kanzureapparently most of the small dogs with tiny brains are pretty dumb but that's mostly because of poor breeding strategy13:54
kanzurealthough i think they might still be more clever than cats, so it's probably okay to use them as a scanning target13:54
maakui wonder what the best scoring animal is on the metric of (smarts / age-of-reproductive-maturity)13:56
maakui think a mouse would still beat a dog at that13:56
kanzuremaybe some birds.13:57
maakui was assuming mammals for similarity of neural anatomy13:58
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kanzurethat's reasonable14:31
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heathhttp://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/circular-economy16:32
heath"A circular economy is one that is restorative and regenerative by design, and which aims to keep products, components and materials at their highest utility and value at all times, distinguishing between technical and biological cycles."16:32
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maakuhttp://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/sri-micro-robots-can-now-manufacture-their-own-tools17:21
maaku.title17:21
yoleauxSRI's Micro Robots Can Now Manufacture Their Own Tools - IEEE Spectrum17:22
maakumore like simple actuators than "robot", but nevertheless cool17:23
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kanzurei think heath knows someone at sri. maybe.17:35
kanzure.title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1126141917:38
yoleauxNew Procedure Allows Kidney Transplants from Any Donor | Hacker News17:38
kanzure"The procedure is called 'Desensitization' where they filter out the existing antibodies in the patient's blood, and then infused external antibodies for protection while the body regenerates new ones. Then the strange part is the new antibodies are less likely to attack the donated organs which results in more available donors for patients. The procedure is $30k, but in the long run is cheaper than $70k for dialysis every year. The life ...17:38
kanzure... expectancy appears to be longer than using cadaver organs."17:38
kanzure.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttMQECKQ3DQ17:39
yoleauxThe Right Match: A Short Documentary - YouTube17:39
kanzure".. researchers who connect the complexities of mathematics with the intricacies of organ transplantation"17:40
kanzure"He also was involved in getting congressional approval for HIV+ -> HIV+ transplants (which were technically illegal till recently)."17:40
kanzurehalf-matched bone marrow transplants http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/kimmel_cancer_center/centers/bone_marrow_transplant/haploidentical_transplantation.html17:41
kanzurethere is a 50 megawtt arcjet at "arnold engineering development center" like http://alfven.princeton.edu/papers/magnetarc.pdf (1967 description)17:43
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kanzurehttps://groups.google.com/group/power-satellite-economics17:46
kanzure.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Lrj35HcbQ17:47
yoleauxThermal Space Solar Power concept - YouTube17:47
kanzure("A concept for a thermal space solar power satellite by Keith Henson, Steve Nixon and Kris Holland; animated by Kris Holland/Mafic Studios and Anna Nesterova.")17:47
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kanzure"Solving economics, energy, carbon and climate in a single project" http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=704624417:49
kanzure"Thermal power satellite design and mass calculation" http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=731431517:49
justanotheruserhelloe18:02
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kanzurejustanotheruser: hi2u18:08
justanotheruserwhats new18:09
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kanzurewell, eliezer has been farting up the hubble volume again18:11
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kanzure"People publishing PDFs sometimes use that non-standard behavior to display some graphics. This is especially true with many research papers that only render on Adobe Reader."18:22
kanzure( from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11262403 )18:22
kanzurei guess we should start archiving versions of adobe reader so that in the future we can still read some of these stupid papers18:22
kanzurei wonder what percent of scientific literature is tainted by this18:23
kanzureif we end up with only digital copies then we're even more screwed18:23
kanzure.. which we probably will, considering how painful it is to make complete archives of any other type.18:23
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shArchiving the binaries sounds like a plan. We can RE the behavior later.18:33
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maakuFile hippo19:35
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maakuMy usual AI IRC haunts are depressingly full of ignorant know it alls. Does anyone know a high SNR AI channel?20:14
kanzureoh that's easy it's #lesswrong20:14
* kanzure ducks20:14
maakuLol20:14
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Houshaltermaaku, on public IRC? I don't know. I have a private AGI slack group that is decent. also the lesswrong slack group #ai channel is ok20:28
maakuYeah looking for IRC. I get enough of slack at work.20:31
Houshalteryou can connect to slack via IRC. that's how I do it.20:33
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JayDuggerGood evening.23:05
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