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| sandeepkr | i was wondering if anyone has an an extra foldscope or one he would like to donate.i need one for recording videos of microorganisms and create a curriculum for local schools. | 02:44 |
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| JayDugger | maaku, do you have a better idea than human emulation? | 09:28 |
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| maaku | JayDugger: human emulation would be good if what you were after was a primate -- those social dominance, feces throwing, violent things you see in the zoo | 09:50 |
| maaku | if that's what you're after, can't think of anything better than a human | 09:50 |
| maaku | JayDugger: I think better solutions are obvious when you ask 'what are the requirements? what are we trying to do here?' | 09:51 |
| maaku | why do you want an AGI? to assist with engineering and biology processes? general scientific endeveours? or some kind of AGI nanny physical operating system? | 09:52 |
| maaku | take your pick and it becomes quite clear that human beings are actually rather unoptimized for the job. in fact we barely get by in terms of general intelligence, mostly with the help of external tools and processes | 09:53 |
| JayDugger | You make good points, with which I agree. I don't think we've any other examples of general intelligence to reverse engineer. Why shouldn't we start with a human mind and then explore mind design space from there? | 09:53 |
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| maaku | JayDugger: take aircraft as an example. we don't know how to build flying things so we look to birds. | 09:55 |
| maaku | but as soon as we figure out the principle of lift and air propulsion, the only resemblance to birds is the physical layout of wings and tail | 09:56 |
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| JayDugger | That's a good point, and I'd forgotten it. | 09:56 |
| maaku | we immediately go off and start designing according to different principles than evolution happened upon, but which are more amenable to design and analysis | 09:56 |
| maaku | i think we're at that point with AGI | 09:56 |
| maaku | if you want a generally human-psychology replicating system, I think CogPrime is a good approach (but OpenCog is a terrible implementation of it) | 09:57 |
| JayDugger | I don't know, you might well be right. I hope so, and I hope the methods prove general enough to reproduce human intelligence and memory on more durabe substrates. | 09:57 |
| JayDugger | durable, rather. | 09:57 |
| maaku | but I'm not really interested in that -- I want an automated engineer and an automated scientist, which is much more highly specific, and actually something humans are not good at | 09:58 |
| maaku | I'm interested in those as cognitive assistants. I desire to transition into a transhuman future by intelligence augmentation, not being replaced by uploads or AGI overlords | 10:00 |
| maaku | And artificial scientist/engineer assistants is simply a faster, better, cheaper way of achieving that | 10:00 |
| JayDugger | Fair enough, as for me, I'll settle for unaging in ever-better hardware. | 10:02 |
| maaku | JayDugger: That's the same goal as me. | 10:02 |
| maaku | I just don't hold much hope for achieving longevity escape velocity in the next 30 years without AGI-accelerated research | 10:02 |
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| nmz787_i | sup | 10:04 |
| JayDugger | I thought so, and you're probably right. Cryonics is a terrible last-chance bet, and I don't know enough biology to have a meaningful opinion on longevity E.V.. | 10:04 |
| JayDugger | Anyway, I think I beter understand your earlier comments. It's pretty easy to talk past one another in IRC, so I thought I'd ask. | 10:06 |
| nmz787_i | did some in-circuit debugging last with my signal generator and oscilloscope last night, checking capacitors for ESR in a couple power-supplies for a FIB | 10:06 |
| nmz787_i | found two caps that scoped bad, haven't tried powering them up yet | 10:07 |
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| nmz787_i | a bit worried since the bad caps were rated at 63V but the replacements were only 50V | 10:07 |
| JayDugger | Focused Ion Beam? | 10:09 |
| nmz787_i | yeah | 10:10 |
| JayDugger | Everything about that was familiar from the best parts of $DAYJOB, right up until you got tot the application. | 10:11 |
| nmz787_i | my buddy has a 'problem child' FIB that he's dumped some 15- 30k USD into over the past two years or so, and it's been a rickety ride... as well it is the part-source for his must-be-working FIB unit... so I am trying to give it some lovin | 10:11 |
| JayDugger | You're a saint for caring for that otherwise unloved and neglected machine. | 10:12 |
| nmz787_i | I have a VARIAC that I could use to conect the supply up to power and test with my scope... but I am still quite hesitant since the AC inputs are only marked 1,2, PE (which I assume means Physical Earth) | 10:12 |
| nmz787_i | so instead I'm just going to try plugging the supply into the FIB power cabinet for a moment, see if the LED lights, then re-replace the caps I soldered in last night with 100V versions I guess | 10:13 |
| nmz787_i | (and I don't know that much about AC safety, at least safety for my probes) | 10:14 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, I found some 450V replacements (10uF) for 0.80 USD locally | 10:15 |
| nmz787_i | that is almost 10X what the bad ones I found were | 10:15 |
| nmz787_i | I read that the higher voltage will have higher ESR and will be physically larger too | 10:15 |
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| heath__ | osvehicle will be in ycombinator this winter | 10:34 |
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| maaku | JayDugger yeah I'm signed up for Alcor, pending a paperwork snafu, but it is a terrible, low probability of success plan B | 10:39 |
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| Sishio | Do people still do cryonics? | 12:28 |
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| xentrac_ | nmz787_i: you could replace the bad caps with four of the replacement caps in a series-parallel configuration | 12:51 |
| xentrac_ | as in (a | b) * (c | d) | 12:52 |
| xentrac_ | if they're all the same capacitance, the combination will have the same capacitance as any one of the components, but twice the breakdown voltage and half the ESR | 12:52 |
| xentrac_ | (actually the same is true of (a * c) | (b * d), if * is series and | parallel) | 12:54 |
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| nmz787_i | xentrac_: hmm, interesting idea... I tried plugging them into the rack and one supply's fuse blew, and the other's LED light came on, but when we rebooted the system, it didn't come back | 13:44 |
| nmz787_i | so some more diagnosis needed | 13:44 |
| nmz787_i | and I think I'll attempt to bench test as well | 13:44 |
| nmz787_i | since the caps seemed close to the adjustment potentiometers... so I wouldn't want the voltage being too high coming out of the regulated-outputs | 13:45 |
| xentrac_ | I'm just figuring that a few dozen capacitors are probably a small cost compared to the parts of the FIB machine that could break if they fail | 13:53 |
| xentrac_ | although that depends on the caps | 13:53 |
| xentrac_ | low-ESR caps are not only expensive but IIRC regulated under ITAR | 13:53 |
| nmz787_i | well I actually only replaced 2 identical caps on each supply... 10uF 63V (used a 50V instead) | 13:55 |
| nmz787_i | I don't actually know how much ESR can affect signals, and particularly not sure of this signal (since I haven't probed it, don't know what its purpose is) | 13:56 |
| xentrac_ | kind of a lot | 13:56 |
| xentrac_ | but it depends a lot on the signal | 13:56 |
| nmz787_i | i.e. I was probing with 100kHz, maybe the signal in question is 60Hz so ESR might not matter as much? | 13:56 |
| xentrac_ | no, at 60Hz it won't matter at all | 13:56 |
| nmz787_i | I need to read up on how to connect the variac to the mains inputs of the supply | 13:57 |
| nmz787_i | it has two unmarked pins that say MAINS and one that says PE (guessing Physical Earth) | 13:57 |
| xentrac_ | let's say your ESR is 10 ohms | 13:57 |
| xentrac_ | which is unreasonably large | 13:57 |
| xentrac_ | 10 ohms * 10 microfarads is 100 microseconds | 13:58 |
| nmz787_i | but not sure if I need to hook up PE then, since the variac should be isolated (it has a 3-pin output, but I haven't probed to see if that is shorted to one of the two others, or if its just going to the case) | 13:58 |
| xentrac_ | so that's the RC time constant over which you'll get exponential decay | 13:58 |
| xentrac_ | so anything over a few kilohertz might start to notice the ESR at that level | 13:58 |
| nmz787_i | I feel like once on the isolated side of the variac, I don't need to worry about polarity of the connections to the MAINS pins | 13:58 |
| xentrac_ | a more typical ESR would be 100 micro-ohms | 13:59 |
| nmz787_i | mmm | 13:59 |
| nmz787_i | ok | 13:59 |
| xentrac_ | typically the use of low-ESR capacitors is to provide extremely high powers | 13:59 |
| nmz787_i | i remember one of the ESR probing videos mentioned these 'bad' caps might still show close to their rated capacitance if using a simpler capacitor checking meter | 14:00 |
| nmz787_i | something that charged for seconds before checking bleed down rate to get capacity | 14:00 |
| xentrac_ | you get maximum power on a load when the load's resistance is equal to the supply's resistance, at which point half the power is dissipated in the load and half in the supply; when the load's resistance is higher, most of the total power of the circuit is dissipated in the load, but the total power is so much lower that the power in the load is lower | 14:01 |
| xentrac_ | while if the load's resistance is lower, then the total power dissipated in the circuit is higher, but most of it is in the supply | 14:02 |
| xentrac_ | which again lowers the power you can deliver to the load | 14:02 |
| archels | http://i.imgur.com/wmNCDLZ.png | 14:03 |
| xentrac_ | if you want to deliver a megawatt at 50 volts, which is 20 kA, your total circuit resistance needs to be 2.5 milliohms, so actually if you want to deliver that much to the load then you actually need 625 micro-ohms in the load and 625 micro-ohms of ESR in your capacitor | 14:04 |
| xentrac_ | well, in your supply, but the only way to do that is to use a capacitor | 14:05 |
| xentrac_ | so that's the kind of case where you care about super-low ESRs | 14:05 |
| nmz787_i | xentrac_: where is the other 625 + 625 microOhms? | 14:05 |
| nmz787_i | 2.5/4 = 0.625 | 14:05 |
| nmz787_i | all the big power supply caps seemed fine | 14:06 |
| xentrac_ | right. what happens is that you want to deliver a megawatt to your load, which means you're dissipating another megawatt (!!) in your supply, so the load only sees 25 volts, so you actually need 40 kA, so your total cirucit resistance actually has to be 1.25 milliohms | 14:06 |
| xentrac_ | which is very challenging | 14:06 |
| nmz787_i | seems like getting good at fixing random power supplies could be a decent side business, possibly enough to sustain oneself | 14:07 |
| xentrac_ | people use homopolar flywheels for that kind of thing at low voltages and high currents like that | 14:08 |
| xentrac_ | a more typical low-ESR capacitor thing would actually be a few thousand volts and lower current | 14:08 |
| xentrac_ | (not that I've ever done any of this, just done th3e math) | 14:08 |
| nmz787_i | that seems like something I may be more likely to encounter | 14:09 |
| nmz787_i | in either electroporation... or in the microscopes/beams | 14:09 |
| xentrac_ | yeah | 14:09 |
| xentrac_ | naturally occurring electrical phenomena on earth are mostly widely separated between electromagnetic and electrochemical phenomena (a few volts, several coulombs moving around) and electrostatic phenomena (a few thousand volts, a few millicouloumbs moving around) | 14:10 |
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| justanotheruser | hmm, is kanzure still alive? | 15:05 |
| nmz787_i | most probably | 15:16 |
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| jrayhawk_ | if he dies, how would we be notified | 15:31 |
| jrayhawk_ | he logged in a couple times today, so not dead yet | 15:33 |
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| maaku | Sishio: http://alcor.org/ | 15:38 |
| Sishio | That's bad. | 15:38 |
| Sishio | Cryonics is bad. | 15:38 |
| maaku | Sishio: ? | 15:38 |
| maaku | ok then | 15:39 |
| Sishio | "I'm going to spend money in the hopes that someone in the far flung future is going to spend copious amounts of money and years of research to bring some frozen corpses back to life" | 15:40 |
| maaku | Sishio: cost of recovery is paid up front with Alcor | 15:40 |
| Sishio | Does the technology for 'recovery' exist right now? | 15:40 |
| maaku | that's not an interesting argument | 15:41 |
| maaku | don't be a tool. $100k set aside in conservative-growth vanguard funds will be plenty enough in 30-100 years | 15:41 |
| Sishio | It is, though. You're giving a new company 100k and then trusting them to invest all of it in groundbreaking research and investment for the future. | 15:42 |
| Sishio | What're you going to do if they don't do it? Who's going to sue them? | 15:42 |
| maaku | no, you're giving a member-run non-profit specifically ear-marked funds | 15:43 |
| maaku | these are not foreign issues to anyone in cryonics. i suggest you look into it rather than presuming. | 15:43 |
| maaku | or not. whatever. | 15:43 |
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| Sishio | It's a scam, dude. | 15:45 |
| Sishio | Alcor literally murdered a dude once. | 15:45 |
| Sishio | http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/alcor-employee-makes-harsh-allegations-cryonics-foundation/story?id=8764331 | 15:46 |
| Sishio | "They actually carry the heads around on hooks to move them from one point to another," he said. "Well, the tuna can is frozen to the top of his head. The only way to get that off is with a hammer or a wrench ... gets a wrench, cocks his arm back to strike that can to knock it off, misses, and hits the side of Ted Williams' head. Then he cocks back, takes another strike, hits the can square on. It goes flying across the room." | 15:47 |
| maaku | Larry Johnson is a troll | 15:48 |
| Sishio | How do actually envision something like cryonics working? | 15:50 |
| maaku | ... how would it not work? life is matter organized a certain way. molecularly precise tools can cure any problem so long as enough information of the original state is preserved | 15:51 |
| Sishio | This "non profit, member run" company has to survive for however many decades with enough money to accurately and safely preserve a roster of bodies that will continue growing, and then hope that someone else creates a sci-fi technology that's affordable enough for alcor to use. | 15:52 |
| Sishio | Before you say "it's not sci-fi", it is. We don't even halfway understand the human brain, or how it functions. Talking about completely repairing it and then restarting the electrical signals and other processes keeping it running is so monumentally complicated that it's almost magic. | 15:54 |
| Sishio | There's so many other ways you could invest 100k into transhumanism | 15:54 |
| maaku | what are you doing here? | 15:54 |
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| Sishio | Sorry, just because I don't agree with a thing that's repeatedly been debunked and is rife with scamming means I don't 'belong here', right? | 15:57 |
| archels | don't strawman Alcor for cryonics | 15:57 |
| maaku | no i mean what productive use is this conversation? | 15:57 |
| archels | well, this is a channel to disuss transhumanism-related topics | 15:58 |
| Sishio | ^ | 15:58 |
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| Sishio | it's a topic about transhumanism. | 15:58 |
| archels | you should probably not expect to change Sishio's mind though | 15:58 |
| archels | also, bye! | 15:58 |
| archels | kanzure: why is everyone very sensitive lately? | 15:59 |
| Sishio | I'm willing to change my mind if someone wants to give a point other than "What are you even doing here" | 15:59 |
| Sishio | it's just that there's so many wrong things with cryonics | 16:00 |
| archels | yeah, it's in its infancy, we're trying to make it better | 16:00 |
| archels | and by we I mean Eugen | 16:00 |
| Sishio | I don't even mean the science behind it, though. | 16:02 |
| Sishio | How do you expect a company that makes 0 profit and has costs that constantly grow with each new person to survive for 50, 100 years? Or even more. | 16:02 |
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| archels | 50 to 100? ah, you're an optimist at heart :) | 16:03 |
| Sishio | Yeah, see? Tell me how many companies right now are even over 100 years old. | 16:05 |
| archels | meh, there are plenty. anyway, who said that the past was a good predictor of the future | 16:07 |
| Sishio | there's this one quote about history repeating that comes to mind. | 16:07 |
| archels | well they didn't have cryonics or bitcoin 100 years ago | 16:08 |
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| Sishio | Okay, look at it like this. | 16:08 |
| Sishio | You pay me, say, 100k to freeze your body, indefinitely, right? I take that money and say that I'll keep you at a temperature to prevent decay until you can be unfrozen. | 16:09 |
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| Sishio | Now, every year the equipment, electricity, and maintenance for your corpse costs money. Let's be conservative and say that it costs 2,000 dollars to keep you in stasis per year. | 16:10 |
| Sishio | That's only 50 years. | 16:11 |
| Sishio | What are they going to do when /your/ money runs out, but they still have to keep you frozen? | 16:12 |
| Sishio | What happens in 10 years, when about 10, 20 other people who died in that period are also leeching money from the company? | 16:13 |
| archels | I don't know, this sounds to me like details | 16:13 |
| Sishio | Each person costs 2k per year, and the company makes 0 profits. To make it worse, you also need to factor in the costs of things like employee costs, and building costs, and everything else that makes a company run. | 16:14 |
| archels | if you have $100k stored on an account somewhere at 2% interest, that makes $2k a year for support | 16:14 |
| archels | add some extra for wages and what have you | 16:14 |
| Sishio | But then you're still /not making money/. | 16:14 |
| archels | I'm not an economist, but I'm sure you can figure out some stable source of low-risk income | 16:15 |
| Sishio | No, not really. If you could easily find 'stable, low-risk income' that could be added to any company, then everyone would do it. | 16:15 |
| Sishio | The fact of the matter is is that cryonics companies have /constant costs/ that never, ever go away, and a finite income for those costs. | 16:16 |
| Sishio | They bleed money - and even if it's a very slow bleed, it's definitely not slow enough to last more than a 100 years | 16:17 |
| archels | the difference is that here you have a bunch of people who are willing to hand you over $100k | 16:17 |
| archels | and, for now, a lot of sympathisers who will donate copious amounts of money to you, although that's cheating a bit | 16:17 |
| Sishio | Okay, you want to do this? Let's say there's 40 people willing to sign up. They give you 4 million dollars - and then donations give you an extra one million. | 16:18 |
| Sishio | You've got 5 million dollars. Now; you buy the equipment - 40 state of the art cryonics cells with matching equipment isn't going to be cheap. Let's say 1.5 million, though it'd probably be more. | 16:19 |
| Sishio | Now, you need to hire professionals to staff and monitor those, as well as lab assistants, administrators, executives, and other staff members. We'll be very conservative here and say that it only costs us 500,000 in salaries per year. | 16:20 |
| Sishio | That's 3 million left. Now, because of donations - like you said - we'll say that you make about 1 million a year, solely from donations. You're a non-profit, so that's your one and only source of income. | 16:23 |
| Sishio | You spend 500k on salaries, and probably more on keeping the place running - the taxes, the costs of the buildings, the upkeep on machines. You're going to spend about 1 million in operating costs. | 16:23 |
| Sishio | But you've still got that 3 million at 2 % income, so you float easy for a while. Those 40 people die - you end up running smoothly for the first decade, but your /entire business/ relies on those donations from sympathisers. What happens in 30, 40 years when that money dries up, and the donations drop? | 16:25 |
| Sishio | What happens if they go to say, 750,000 per year. One of your big givers dies, and them's the breaks. Now you need to dip into that 3 million you've been coasting on. | 16:26 |
| Sishio | Every time you dip into that the money you're making from interest drops off too. You start losing more money than you make off of it - and the costs start growing. You lose 300,000 per year, approx. | 16:26 |
| streety | I've missed most of this conversation but couldn't your objections be equally applicable to the entire insurance industry? An upfront payment followed by a future unknown cost? | 16:26 |
| streety | the insurance industry seems to have largely solved that economic model | 16:27 |
| Sishio | Not really. You pay premiums for the possibility of an accident or problem, and if that happens the insurance company pays once. | 16:27 |
| Sishio | With cryonics, you're paying them a lump sum for a definite problem that they then have to pay out for every single year, without question. | 16:28 |
| Sishio | If they don't, then the service is inherently useless. You can't half-freeze a brain. | 16:28 |
| Sishio | If life insurance had to constantly pay your family money until the end of time, and your company /only dealt in life insurance/, then you'd go bankrupt quickly. | 16:29 |
| Sishio | That's what cryonics is. | 16:29 |
| archels | oh, so James Bedford has been vitrified for 49 years this year | 16:33 |
| archels | apparently the record holder | 16:33 |
| streety | The insurance company receives premiums from some large number of people and then pays out in the event of death, a burglary, a traffic collision, a fire etc. The premium is known but the payout rate (and per incident amount depending on type) can only be guessed at from historical data. | 16:36 |
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| nmz787_i | http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160321006413/en/Andrew-S.-Grove-1936-%E2%80%93-2016 | 17:31 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 17:31 |
| yoleaux | Andrew S. Grove 1936 – 2016 | Business Wire | 17:31 |
| nmz787_i | "Born András Gróf in Budapest, Hungary, Grove immigrated to the United States in 1956-7 having survived Nazi occupation and escaped Soviet repression. He studied chemical engineering at the City College of New York, completing his Ph.D in at the University of California at Berkeley in 1963. After graduation, he was hired by Gordon Moore at Fairchild Semiconductor as a researcher and rose to assistant head of R&D under Moore. When Noyce and Moore | 17:32 |
| nmz787_i | left Fairchild to found Intel in 1968, Grove was their first hire." | 17:32 |
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| docl | http://www.alcor.org/AboutAlcor/patientcaretrustfund.html | 18:00 |
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| docl | Cost for keeping something cold isn't constant, it goes down with improving tech and economies of scale. Also, the brain is the only really important part. So if the company lacks the funds for their whole body patients they could get rid of the trunk and just save the brain. | 18:22 |
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| pasky | it's an interesting question, if the brain is the only really important part - we don't actually know that, do we? | 19:21 |
| pasky | for example bowels are extremely densely innervated, and one might easily construct naive hypotheses about "gut feelings" etc. | 19:22 |
| c0rw1n | indeed, emotions are felt in parts of the body that are not the head | 19:24 |
| Jenda` | Aren't there examples of people that have cut the spine from chest down and still can show intelligence with eye blinking etc.? | 19:24 |
| c0rw1n | yes | 19:24 |
| Jenda` | so with this evidence, we can probably pretty much say that brain is the important part | 19:24 |
| c0rw1n | most important part yes. maybe throwing the rest away would mean losing valuable things, though | 19:26 |
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| pasky | Jenda`: good point, didn't think of that :) | 20:15 |
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| justanotheruser | /whois kanzure | 20:40 |
| justanotheruser | oops | 20:40 |
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| xentrac_ | Sishio: I could be wrong, but doesn't Alcor publish their balance sheets? | 20:47 |
| xentrac_ | you don't need to back-of-the-envelope one possible cost structure and financing arrangement; you can use their actual cost structure and financing | 20:48 |
| xentrac_ | nmz787: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/taiyo-yuden/LMK105BJ104KV-F/587-1227-6-ND/1767765 is apparently the world's most popular capacitor, if Digi-Key stocking is a good indicator, which it might not be | 20:50 |
| xentrac_ | its ESR is about 0.1 ohms, although at sub-kHz frequencies its ESR is tens of ohms. although that doesn't really matter | 20:52 |
| xentrac_ | https://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/capacitors/aluminum-capacitors/131081?FV=fff40002%2Cfff80009&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=-1000009&page=1&stock=0&pbfree=0&rohs=0&k=&quantity=&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25 has capacitors ranging from 1mΩ up to 2kΩ | 20:54 |
| xentrac_ | their most popular aluminum capacitor (from that page) has a million capacitors in stock: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/panasonic-electronic-components/ECA-0JHG102/P5509-ND/245108 | 20:55 |
| xentrac_ | I think it's possible to compute its ESR from the tan δ number in the datasheet but I'm too sleepy to be sure of how | 20:57 |
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