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| chris_99 | Does anyone think you could modify yeast to make them metabolise sugar faster out of curiousity | 06:45 |
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| FourFire | Does anyone know the current lowest going rate for 1KB DNA synthesis? | 07:35 |
| FourFire | Currently have a website that says $230 per kb | 07:35 |
| ebowden | Some people do it at 3 cents a base pair. | 07:39 |
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| FourFire | ebowden, source? | 07:44 |
| FourFire | is it biohacker labs which do it at a loss? | 07:44 |
| FourFire | (I mean if not, that's pretty cool, only 1.5 Billion SD to synth a human genome instead of 13) | 07:45 |
| ebowden | Oh, shit, they might not be offering it yet. | 07:45 |
| ebowden | Think it might have been these guys: https://www.gen9bio.com/solutions/custom-gene-synthesis | 07:46 |
| ebowden | http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160321005748/en/Gen9-Announces-Generation-BioFab%C2%AE-DNA-Synthesis-Platform | 07:47 |
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| kanzure | hrmph | 08:31 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: thanks for doing that writeup | 10:57 |
| yashgaroth | eh, needed to be done, but you're welcome | 10:57 |
| yashgaroth | now to convince ThermoFisher that I am a legitimate business entity | 10:58 |
| kanzure | use biotechnbeyond for that | 10:59 |
| yashgaroth | might still need to incorporate myself, will have to confer with jojack | 11:00 |
| chris_99 | do they actually check you out | 11:00 |
| kanzure | no, they just need an address and business number thingy | 11:00 |
| chris_99 | ah | 11:01 |
| yashgaroth | not as much as sigma but it'd probably be best to have a sole proprietorship | 11:01 |
| chris_99 | oh i wanted to buy something from sigma | 11:01 |
| yashgaroth | best of luck to you | 11:03 |
| chris_99 | oh are they that bad | 11:03 |
| yashgaroth | are you in the UK or am I thinking of someone else | 11:03 |
| chris_99 | UK yeah | 11:03 |
| yashgaroth | well once the queen approves your license or whatever they do there, get yourself a commercial shipping address and business credit card | 11:04 |
| chris_99 | ah heh | 11:04 |
| chris_99 | i guess the restrictions are due to silly laws aimed at preventing terrorism or something? | 11:06 |
| ebowden | They are indeed silly. | 11:07 |
| yashgaroth | their liability in general, since once you're approved there's all kinds of ass-crazy shit you can buy on there | 11:07 |
| chris_99 | hmm, but i'm sure people with intentions to do bad, could get the chemicals elsewhere anyway | 11:07 |
| yashgaroth | well you can't buy a kilo of cyanide on ebay, maybe on amazon | 11:08 |
| chris_99 | heh true | 11:09 |
| chris_99 | but could you not extract it yourself from millions of apple pips ;) | 11:09 |
| ebowden | Kids, we all know cyanide isn't hard to make. | 11:09 |
| ebowden | You could, but you wouldn't use apple pips. | 11:10 |
| yashgaroth | but yes most stuff you can get elsewhere, sigma is just the gold standard | 11:12 |
| chris_99 | gotcha, i guess they certify the purity | 11:12 |
| chris_99 | etc too | 11:12 |
| ebowden | Plenty of places sell stuff cheaper, sometimes to greater purity. | 11:12 |
| chris_99 | oh interesting | 11:12 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: btw we should do aerosolized mdma | 11:12 |
| xentrac | heh, "gold standard" is a particularly funny term when it comes to cyanide | 11:13 |
| ebowden | No, use the active, non-toxic metabolite. | 11:13 |
| chris_99 | are there any places you know of in the UK ebowden | 11:13 |
| ebowden | Depends on what you want. | 11:13 |
| ebowden | Wait, you can't import? | 11:13 |
| yashgaroth | kanzure I will put my top men on it | 11:13 |
| kanzure | thanks | 11:13 |
| ebowden | You realise that one of its metabolites is a fairly potent neurotoxin? | 11:14 |
| chris_99 | ebowden, at the moment i was just looking for skoog medium, i noticed i can get that on ebay though | 11:14 |
| ebowden | Really, depends on what you want. LC labs are fucking awesome for kinase inhibitors. | 11:15 |
| ebowden | Which, in doses one hundredth of that used in chemo, are extremely promising for treating practically anything involving protein plaques, tangles and aggregates of other kinds. | 11:17 |
| ebowden | (Autophagy induction.) | 11:17 |
| ebowden | kanzure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxyamphetamine | 11:19 |
| CaptHindsight | heh, sigma, I never buy from them. Their prices are 10-100x of anyone else. | 11:19 |
| ebowden | It's ridiculous. | 11:20 |
| CaptHindsight | they take about a week to approve you | 11:20 |
| CaptHindsight | you just need a commercial lease that states that you have a lab and can receive chems | 11:21 |
| chris_99 | ah | 11:21 |
| CaptHindsight | so plan ahead | 11:22 |
| CaptHindsight | or buy elsewhere | 11:22 |
| CaptHindsight | like China | 11:22 |
| ebowden | Gotta be careful, lot of fake shit sold there. | 11:22 |
| ebowden | Sometimes mix ups. | 11:22 |
| CaptHindsight | yeah, you need to find good suppliers in China | 11:23 |
| ebowden | There are trustworthy vendors that buy big batches and test them both in-house and 3rd party. | 11:23 |
| CaptHindsight | but it's well worth the time | 11:23 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: should CaptHindsight be shown the proposal? | 11:23 |
| yashgaroth | sure | 11:24 |
| CaptHindsight | and everything from China is marked "colored dye" | 11:24 |
| yashgaroth | to be fair I don't expect to need to buy anything from Sigma, most everything else for protein work is remarkably on ebay/amazon | 11:24 |
| CaptHindsight | well in small quantities <few Kg | 11:25 |
| xentrac | who are good suppliers? | 11:25 |
| CaptHindsight | yeah, buying from Sigma is like going grocery shopping at the airport | 11:25 |
| CaptHindsight | xentrac: make friends in China | 11:28 |
| xentrac | do you visit China often? | 11:28 |
| CaptHindsight | xentrac: have them deal wit the locals in their own language and currency | 11:28 |
| xentrac | ah, I see what you mean | 11:28 |
| CaptHindsight | I used to spend about half the year there | 11:29 |
| xentrac | how was that? | 11:29 |
| chris_99 | cool, have you been to shenzen? (sp?) | 11:29 |
| CaptHindsight | I have some suppliers there that tack on a few % for whatever I need | 11:29 |
| CaptHindsight | sure, Shenzhen is right across the border from Hong Kong | 11:30 |
| CaptHindsight | but I get 1 million piece pricing + 2% | 11:31 |
| CaptHindsight | or several ton pricing + 2% | 11:31 |
| CaptHindsight | for my 10K parts or 10Kg of something | 11:31 |
| xentrac | because your suppliers trust you to pay and not make trouble | 11:31 |
| xentrac | I guess? | 11:31 |
| CaptHindsight | yeah, everyone wins | 11:32 |
| CaptHindsight | their guberment gave me $, offices and a factory as well near Shanghai | 11:33 |
| ebowden | You have a fucking factory?! | 11:34 |
| chris_99 | haha | 11:34 |
| CaptHindsight | yeah they want your IP, but they also pay for it | 11:34 |
| ebowden | What the fuck did you do to be given a factory? | 11:35 |
| CaptHindsight | a few years ago they had a startup program to find and fund ~1k new companies | 11:35 |
| CaptHindsight | we were approved near instantly | 11:36 |
| chris_99 | wow :) | 11:36 |
| chris_99 | can you speak Chinese then | 11:36 |
| CaptHindsight | http://sinotech.ch/2013/03/nanjing-321-plan/ | 11:37 |
| ebowden | What do you do with this factory? | 11:38 |
| CaptHindsight | additive manufacturing and radcure resins | 11:38 |
| CaptHindsight | well really anything as long as you make money | 11:39 |
| ebowden | You make the resins? :D | 11:39 |
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| CaptHindsight | https://ibin.co/2nUYCsjfEeEy.jpg they let you pick your space | 11:41 |
| CaptHindsight | they charge you next to nothing for it | 11:41 |
| CaptHindsight | 10K sq ft is like $500/mo | 11:41 |
| ebowden | So, do you make the actual resins? | 11:42 |
| CaptHindsight | yes | 11:42 |
| CaptHindsight | https://ibin.co/2nUYmTUbgm49.jpg you get bare insides | 11:43 |
| CaptHindsight | so you have to build it out yourself | 11:43 |
| xentrac | nice! | 11:43 |
| ebowden | So, any synthesis involved? | 11:44 |
| CaptHindsight | mostly blending but yeah some synthesis | 11:44 |
| CaptHindsight | reactors are cheap in China | 11:44 |
| ebowden | Oh, what did you synthesise? | 11:45 |
| xentrac | is everything cheap in China, or are some things more expensive? | 11:45 |
| CaptHindsight | but it's often easier to just hire someone with a reactor to make it for you | 11:45 |
| CaptHindsight | things made in China are automatically 10-20% cheaper when sold to other Chinese | 11:46 |
| CaptHindsight | foreigners always pay more | 11:46 |
| CaptHindsight | ebowden: oligomers | 11:47 |
| ebowden | CaptHindsight, talk to the guy that owns Ceretropic and Nootropics Depot. He might be able to use some stuff you might be able to make. | 11:47 |
| CaptHindsight | having been working with much bio there yet | 11:50 |
| CaptHindsight | mostly industrial | 11:50 |
| CaptHindsight | it was hard enough to find suppliers with low contamination in their industrial monomers | 11:51 |
| ebowden | Would you make, say phenylpiracetam hydrazide? | 11:51 |
| ebowden | Do tablet pressing? | 11:52 |
| CaptHindsight | not really my focus right now | 11:52 |
| CaptHindsight | you screw up a batch there and you end up with a bullet in your head courtesy of the Chinese guberment | 11:54 |
| ebowden | Oh, he tests them all, anything bad he'll tell you about. | 11:55 |
| ebowden | They won't end up with consumers. | 11:55 |
| CaptHindsight | you hear the stories about melamine in baby formula or lead in kids toys | 11:56 |
| chris_99 | yeah, what happened to the manufacturers that caused that | 11:56 |
| ebowden | Executed. | 11:56 |
| CaptHindsight | what you don't hear about in the west is how the heads of those co's ended up with lead poisoning | 11:57 |
| ebowden | I sure as hell heard. | 11:57 |
| ebowden | CaptHindsight, this guy tests every batch, in house and third party. What government consequences are there for getting a batch sent back? | 11:58 |
| CaptHindsight | at the same time you can buy fat spray on TV to lose your belly fat instantly | 11:58 |
| ebowden | This person got into the industry because he used the products, and was frustrated with the state of it. | 11:59 |
| ebowden | Originally, he was just a guy on noots boards who would point out all the bullshit, basically the immune system. People begged the man to go into business. | 12:00 |
| CaptHindsight | https://ibin.co/2nUeghrWDXbG.jpg | 12:02 |
| CaptHindsight | if they spray actually hurt people then it could be a death sentence for the sellers | 12:02 |
| CaptHindsight | but since it's just a safe foam it's "buyer beware" | 12:03 |
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| ebowden | You're worried about putting out contaminated batches? | 12:03 |
| CaptHindsight | that would be a concern, but it's just not my focus to make those kinds of chems right now | 12:04 |
| ebowden | Ok. Precursors for peptide synth? | 12:05 |
| CaptHindsight | working on rapid DNA/RNA synthesis since nobody really is | 12:06 |
| CaptHindsight | lots of talk, but no action | 12:06 |
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| ebowden | I thought you did anything that made money. | 12:08 |
| ebowden | How much do you know about developing synths? | 12:11 |
| CaptHindsight | How many tons do you need? How will you finance it? | 12:14 |
| ebowden | It also depends on the structure of the molecule. | 12:14 |
| CaptHindsight | maker types tend to want a few custom Kg's of something and what the 100,000 Kg price | 12:15 |
| CaptHindsight | I call them dreamers | 12:15 |
| ebowden | lol | 12:16 |
| ebowden | Could this be made cheaply? https://www.tocris.com/image.php?ItemId=393252 | 12:16 |
| ebowden | LM11A-31, a very, very promising drug candidate. | 12:16 |
| CaptHindsight | "my time is near worthless, yours should be to" | 12:16 |
| ebowden | lol | 12:16 |
| ebowden | Sorry, I didn't mean to waste your time. | 12:17 |
| ebowden | Honestly was hoping to get you some business. The guy deals mostly with China anyway. | 12:17 |
| ebowden | CaptHindsight: http://i.imgur.com/0ml0uJY.jpg | 12:22 |
| CaptHindsight | I wonder if similar effects are felt by avoiding facebook, reprap, *duinos and anything with maker in the name | 12:30 |
| ebowden | Similar to what? | 12:31 |
| ebowden | Lol, reprapists. | 12:31 |
| ebowden | I know a guy who made an extruder that can properly print PEEK. | 12:32 |
| ebowden | Is any equipment useful to you ever made with that stuff? | 12:33 |
| ebowden | I know it's awesome for implants, but I've always wondered what other uses the stuff finds. | 12:35 |
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| TMA | ebowden: I have made myself an extension of the pins holding a shelf in my cabinet | 12:43 |
| ebowden | You printed PEEK? | 12:43 |
| TMA | ebowden: not PEEK -- I have understood you mean 3d printing is useless in general | 12:44 |
| ebowden | It's actually incredibly useful, just not a magic bullet. | 12:45 |
| TMA | there is no free lunch or magic bullet | 12:46 |
| ebowden | CaptHindsight, ever had the pain in the ass of a synth where one part needs the vessel to be cooled? | 12:47 |
| ebowden | (For a decent yield anyway.) | 12:47 |
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| CaptHindsight | http://www.cnpioneer.com/ reactors | 13:07 |
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| chris_99 | essentially they just stir things and regulate the temperature? | 13:09 |
| CaptHindsight | with funky tubes for adding and siphoning while heating | 13:10 |
| chris_99 | aha cool | 13:10 |
| chris_99 | are they double skinned then | 13:10 |
| chris_99 | for pumping a heating fluid / steam in | 13:11 |
| CaptHindsight | that's what all those external fittings are for | 13:11 |
| chris_99 | ah | 13:11 |
| CaptHindsight | http://www.cnpioneer.com/product/GMP-Reactor.html check the drawings | 13:11 |
| CaptHindsight | the fun part is having to clean them out | 13:12 |
| CaptHindsight | often the most expensive part of the process | 13:13 |
| chris_99 | heh, do they have CIP system | 13:13 |
| CaptHindsight | send the monkey in with a sponge and bucket | 13:13 |
| chris_99 | can't you just pump caustic through | 13:13 |
| CaptHindsight | depends | 13:13 |
| ebowden | This can be used for cooling? | 13:14 |
| nmz787 | they use caustic at wineries | 13:24 |
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| chris_99 | and breweries | 13:24 |
| chris_99 | although you have you be careful with implosions in the fermenter apparently | 13:24 |
| chris_99 | due to co2 | 13:24 |
| yashgaroth | we just use a monkey and steam in place for bioreactors, that sounds like a ton of caustic haz waste to dispose of | 13:27 |
| chris_99 | yeah, i'm curious what they actually do with it | 13:27 |
| ebowden | Neutralise it? | 13:27 |
| yashgaroth | neutralization on site is a lot of paperwork if you're not in a huge facility | 13:28 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 13:29 |
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| chris_99 | if they diluted it to some amount, can it go down the drain, or would that not be allowed | 13:30 |
| yashgaroth | dilution of hazardous waste streams is explicitly not allowed | 13:30 |
| chris_99 | aha | 13:30 |
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| ebowden | How would it be processed? | 13:38 |
| yashgaroth | if you do it on site you just dump acid in until the pH is in spec, otherwise you're filling up waste containers and getting them shipped off somewhere to be neutralized | 13:39 |
| chris_99 | nmz787, since i opted for cheapo peg board temporarily, is there a word for threadless metal of different sizes that i could put in it, and solder croc clips onto the top of | 13:39 |
| ebowden | I guessed that part, I was wondering about further processing for potential contaminants. | 13:40 |
| ebowden | (I suppose that depends on what it is you made.) | 13:40 |
| yashgaroth | I've always just had it shipped off, but yeah depends on the contaminants | 13:42 |
| ebowden | What kind of stuff do you make? | 13:43 |
| yashgaroth | I make proteins, and in the process of doing so generate acid, base, flammable, and toxic metal waste | 13:44 |
| ebowden | Oh, for what application? | 13:44 |
| ebowden | *applications? | 13:44 |
| yashgaroth | right now in vitro diagnostics, but previously it's mostly biopharmaceuticals or as research reagents | 13:45 |
| ebowden | Oh, so you'd have to develop HPLC purification processes and such to maximise yield and purity. | 13:45 |
| yashgaroth | well HPLC's mostly for analysis rather than purification, but yes | 13:46 |
| ebowden | Odd, a lab I was at used it in some steps. | 13:47 |
| ebowden | I guess that's the small stuff. | 13:48 |
| ebowden | What ones do you use? | 13:48 |
| ebowden | God there are tons. | 13:48 |
| yashgaroth | yeah more than like a milligram and you're pushing the capacity of an HPLC, then you step up to FPLC | 13:48 |
| yashgaroth | HPLCs? mostly agilents, 1100 series and occasionally 1200 | 13:48 |
| kanzure | qeradfjioqjerqofdjadvoahugq | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | I heard the wineries just have fields that the waste goes into... I can't remember but I think they just neutralize it with some acid maybe? | 13:49 |
| yashgaroth | u ok kanz | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | chris_99: hmm, why can't you use threaded metal? | 13:49 |
| ebowden | yashgaroth, what purification techniques are used the most? | 13:50 |
| chris_99 | nmz787, i think i found what i'm looking for, was just after a rod, that i could poke into it, and solder a croc clip on top, so i can remove it easily | 13:50 |
| yashgaroth | affinity (nickel or protein-based), ion exchange, size exclusion | 13:51 |
| ebowden | Oh, those were mentioned as the most common ones. | 13:51 |
| ebowden | In basic courses. | 13:52 |
| ebowden | Huh. | 13:52 |
| yashgaroth | yup | 13:53 |
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| ebowden | Your job must be a no-brainer. :D | 13:53 |
| yashgaroth | yeah it's great, just slam some crud into a column and call it a day | 13:54 |
| abetusk | his cat walked across the keyboard, left to right | 13:54 |
| ebowden | In all seriousness, I'm sure there are parts that are challenging. | 13:54 |
| ebowden | What parts are? | 13:55 |
| nmz787 | when it doesn't work | 13:55 |
| yashgaroth | ^ | 13:55 |
| ebowden | lol | 13:55 |
| ebowden | Then you have to go through and figure out where things went so terribly wrong. | 13:55 |
| yashgaroth | uhh let's see, knowledge and experience of the best process to use, designing genes and proteins optimally, having the constant presence of mind to not forget a single critical detail, accurate recordkeeping | 13:56 |
| ebowden | My got that sounds awesome. | 13:57 |
| yashgaroth | haha yeah that's why we have a surplus of people who really shouldn't be in the field | 13:58 |
| ebowden | lol | 13:58 |
| ebowden | Go on. | 13:58 |
| yashgaroth | it doesn't take a genius to follow a protocol, but that small (or not so small) % of the time something goes wrong, most biologists possess little background knowledge to analyze the problem | 13:59 |
| ebowden | One of the first courses I did actually covered exactly this. | 13:59 |
| ebowden | I keep all my receipts folded compactly in paper bags I get specifically for them, they are labelled, one bag for each half of the year. | 14:00 |
| yashgaroth | or they just like plants/fish and realized there's like no jobs that give a shit about that, so they filter into molecular bio and gradually fuck things up | 14:00 |
| yashgaroth | it's not so much tracking what you did every step of the way, though there is that...just the theoretical understanding of why biomolecules do what they do | 14:01 |
| ebowden | They really hammer that in. | 14:02 |
| yashgaroth | and then everyone promptly ignores it | 14:02 |
| ebowden | ...why? | 14:02 |
| ebowden | For what possible reason would you ignore that when making and purifying fucking proteins? | 14:03 |
| yashgaroth | because humans are lazy, which is the answer to most questions, or stupid, which is the answer to all other questions | 14:03 |
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| ebowden | So, how do these animal and plant lovers "gradually" fuck things up? | 14:04 |
| yashgaroth | well, they start off running ELISA plates all day, and politic their way into positions of responsibility where they have no real reason to be | 14:04 |
| ebowden | Can they just fucking take some PRL-8-53 and maybe a DRI read some damn texbooks? | 14:06 |
| ebowden | It's not that hard, you almost literally buy motivation and swallow a dose. | 14:07 |
| yashgaroth | too busy drinking | 14:07 |
| yashgaroth | anyway it's not much different from other technical fields | 14:08 |
| yashgaroth | well, the sciences anyway | 14:08 |
| ebowden | God I wish it weren't so frighteningly easy to beat other people on competence. | 14:09 |
| ebowden | It's too depressing. | 14:09 |
| yashgaroth | mm | 14:10 |
| ebowden | I wonder, perhaps one could administer a typical anti-physchotic with 7,8-dihydroxyflavone for a while and come out with a motivated person. | 14:11 |
| xentrac | Why do you think that is, ebowden? | 14:11 |
| ebowden | Think what is? | 14:12 |
| xentrac | Like, what keeps other people from being competent? Is it lack of intelligence? | 14:12 |
| xentrac | Or lack of motivation? | 14:12 |
| ebowden | Both. IQ is inversely correlated with conscientiousness. | 14:12 |
| xentrac | Well, within the population of accomplished people, sure | 14:13 |
| xentrac | but I think the population-wide correlation is positive | 14:13 |
| ebowden | In the general population too actually, at least among males. | 14:13 |
| xentrac | Oh really? | 14:13 |
| xentrac | I had thought the opposite but I don't have a cite handy | 14:13 |
| xentrac | So what works to motivate people? | 14:13 |
| ebowden | A large-bore handgun. | 14:14 |
| ebowden | Otherwise, you could assign points, reward for trying. | 14:15 |
| ebowden | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886903004380 | 14:16 |
| ebowden | However, small studies have found negative results here. | 14:16 |
| ebowden | https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/2373 | 14:16 |
| ebowden | The better ones seem to be positive. | 14:17 |
| ebowden | xentrac, you know how amphetamine addiction works? | 14:18 |
| xentrac | Only experientially, not biochemically. How does it work? | 14:19 |
| xentrac | (and it was methylphenidate, but I assume that's similar enough) | 14:19 |
| ebowden | You were addicted? | 14:19 |
| ebowden | Beyond the more transient effects of dosing, such as neurotransmitter depletion and receptor down-regulation, BDNF is released, increasing "plasticity" and allowing the brain to wire itself to function with that level of stimulus. | 14:20 |
| ebowden | When you take that stimulus away, you've got more problems than just the withdrawal. | 14:21 |
| ebowden | That's why I've wondered about administering a TrkB agonist, such as 7,8-dihyroxyflavone, with a Dopamine receptor antagonist, to get the brain used to lower levels, not only to counter addiction but perhaps to create people who are more attentive and motivated genrally. | 14:22 |
| ebowden | *generally | 14:23 |
| ebowden | xentrac, are you still addicted to methylphenidate? | 14:25 |
| ebowden | Or was this some other kind of experiment? | 14:27 |
| xentrac | No, the withdrawal only lasts about a week | 14:34 |
| xentrac | In a sense it was an experiment, but I wasn't a willing subject | 14:35 |
| ebowden | You were likely not addicted. | 14:35 |
| xentrac | It lasted about a week each time, a really shitty week | 14:35 |
| ebowden | What, you were force fed Methylphenidate? | 14:35 |
| xentrac | Yes | 14:35 |
| xentrac | This is common | 14:35 |
| ebowden | How did that happen? | 14:35 |
| xentrac | Psychiatrists | 14:35 |
| ebowden | When did it happen? | 14:35 |
| xentrac | Whether there was long-term brain damage I don't know, because I don't know how I'd be today without having experienced that | 14:36 |
| ebowden | Were you a child? | 14:36 |
| ebowden | What age? | 14:36 |
| xentrac | yes, 6-14, 1982 to 1990 | 14:36 |
| ebowden | You don't bloody stop and start, you take the full course. | 14:37 |
| xentrac | Crazy meds aren't antibiotics | 14:37 |
| xentrac | One year I stayed on them teh whole time instead of going off them on the weekends | 14:37 |
| xentrac | I developed psychosis that year | 14:37 |
| ebowden | My my, not right for you. | 14:38 |
| xentrac | I also learned a lot about digital logic and organic chemistry, some of which I still know | 14:38 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 14:38 |
| xentrac | I was 9 | 14:38 |
| ebowden | Did it help you learn? | 14:38 |
| xentrac | Oh definitely | 14:38 |
| xentrac | I would stay up all night reading the Bhagavad Gita or the organic chemistry textbook instead of sleeping | 14:38 |
| ebowden | At whatever age you took it, if you took it continuously it would have induced brain volume increase from BDNF release | 14:39 |
| xentrac | Some of the things I learned weren't real, though! | 14:39 |
| ebowden | At whatever age you took it, if you took it continuously it would have induced brain volume increase from BDNF release. | 14:39 |
| xentrac | BDNF expands your cranium? | 14:39 |
| xentrac | Or it just reduces the volume of your CSF? | 14:39 |
| nmz787_i | xentrac: I also stayed up late into the night habitually, I think due in part to ritalin/amphetamine and possibly that my dad for some reason thought it OK that my bed was next to our washer and dryer (albeit in a closet) | 14:40 |
| xentrac | intermittent fasting or CR seems like it would be a less harmful way to release BDNF | 14:40 |
| xentrac | Your idea about TrkB agonists and dop antagonists sounds interesting but I don't know enough to provide useful input, ebowden | 14:41 |
| nmz787_i | I still stay up late, habitually, it is really hard not to... and I haven't taken any stimulants regularly for something like 11 or 12 years (though I have infrequently taken my old meds that I kept in storage, though they just recently ran out) | 14:41 |
| ebowden | With the pattern of release caused by DRIs at therapeutic doses, the volume of certain regions involved in attention and arousal gradually increases. This appears to cause a gradual increase in IQ. | 14:41 |
| ebowden | If it had been done below the age of six, it would likely decrease IQ. | 14:42 |
| xentrac | Yeah, me too, nmz787_i. I've had some success with melatonin | 14:42 |
| ebowden | It's awesome for me, and chemopreventative too! :D | 14:43 |
| nmz787_i | I've megadosed with melatonin, it has no effect | 14:43 |
| nmz787_i | I feel like melatonin must be highly placebo linked | 14:43 |
| ebowden | No, placebo controlled trials were done. | 14:43 |
| nmz787_i | or I have a strong placebo in the opposite direction (I doubt it will work, belief makes it happen) | 14:43 |
| ebowden | It's just not very impressive. | 14:43 |
| xentrac | doesn't imply it couldn't have a placebo effect too, ebowden :) | 14:44 |
| xentrac | I typically take 600μg | 14:44 |
| ebowden | 2mg. | 14:44 |
| ebowden | Extended release. | 14:44 |
| nmz787_i | I want to say I took like half a drugstore bottle once | 14:44 |
| nmz787_i | or maybe 1/4 | 14:44 |
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| ebowden | It's very safe even in high doses. | 14:44 |
| nmz787_i | unfortunately I wasn't looking for safe, I was looking for "knock me out so I can have a chance at waking up in the morning to get to school so I don't fail highschool" | 14:45 |
| nmz787_i | didn't work, dropped out and got my GED :P | 14:45 |
| ebowden | What uni did you go to? | 14:45 |
| nmz787_i | RIT | 14:45 |
| xentrac | Yeah, I'm not worried I'll poison myself, ebowden, but I do worry a bit about tolerance | 14:45 |
| xentrac | nice | 14:45 |
| ebowden | Don't worry below 4mg. | 14:46 |
| xentrac | thanks :) | 14:46 |
| ebowden | What's RIT? Royal Institution of Technology? | 14:47 |
| xentrac | So what is this about brain volume increase? Do you mean methylphenidate (or amphetamine or maybe even IF/CR) expands certain reasons? | 14:47 |
| xentrac | Rensselaer? | 14:47 |
| ebowden | Rochester? | 14:47 |
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| nmz787_i | rochester | 14:47 |
| nmz787_i | rensselaer is RPI | 14:48 |
| ebowden | What did you do your Phd in? | 14:48 |
| ebowden | *PhD | 14:48 |
| nmz787_i | if you are asking me, I did an 8 year bachelors in Biotech with concentration in Bioinformatics (but actually concentrated on hobby-learning analog electronics and using Uni resources for learning micro/nano fab) | 14:49 |
| nmz787_i | 8 years because it sucked so bad I had to take it one class at a take the last few years | 14:49 |
| ebowden | I LOVE analogue. | 14:49 |
| ebowden | No PhD? | 14:50 |
| nmz787_i | nah | 14:50 |
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| nmz787_i | maybe someday | 14:50 |
| xentrac | sorry | 14:50 |
| ebowden | What analogue stuff do you do now? | 14:50 |
| nmz787_i | I actually just got my degree officially in December | 14:50 |
| ebowden | Better, cheaper CNC controls? | 14:50 |
| xentrac | ebowden: what do you think about Camenzind's book? | 14:50 |
| nmz787_i | I work at Intel in the analog validation dept for new products | 14:50 |
| xentrac | you too nmz787_i | 14:50 |
| ebowden | yayyyyy! | 14:51 |
| nmz787_i | write software for hardware synthesis lately... lately been learning about constraints solver algorithms | 14:51 |
| xentrac | nice | 14:51 |
| nmz787_i | work on DNA synthesis goal-oriented equipment at night/on-weekends | 14:51 |
| ebowden | Never heard that name. | 14:51 |
| ebowden | \:D/ | 14:51 |
| ebowden | Yessss! | 14:51 |
| nmz787_i | got an electron microscope just behind me | 14:51 |
| xentrac | I've been trying to get a handle on the whole constraint/optimization/SAT/SMT/logic-programming space | 14:51 |
| nmz787_i | yeah I had a friend help me get into the SAT solver space | 14:52 |
| ebowden | Who's Camenzind? | 14:52 |
| xentrac | the 555 guy, put an ebook on the web | 14:52 |
| xentrac | and I keep trying to wedge interval arithmetic into the constraint-solving/search space | 14:52 |
| nmz787_i | Best successes so far are with the library Pyeda for interfacing with picosat... and for a middle-of-the-road solver approach python-constraint looks pretty OK, easy to write constraints but slow to load and solve (pure python library) | 14:53 |
| chris_99 | have you started fixing the SEM nmz787_i? | 14:53 |
| ebowden | nmz787_i, you could build missile guidance systems. | 14:53 |
| xentrac | doing SAT solving in pure CPython sounds like a bad idea | 14:53 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: most progress as of late was talking with a guy who fixed his own SEM and also made some tesla coil plasma speakers... also I bought a 45kV rated 1 or 10 gigaohm resistor | 14:54 |
| nmz787_i | it is HUGE | 14:54 |
| nmz787_i | xentrac: pyeda is a C++ library extension, so you generate clauses in Python then hand them to C++ | 14:54 |
| chris_99 | haha wow, that's the resistor for? | 14:54 |
| xentrac | yeah, that sounds like a better idea | 14:55 |
| nmz787_i | python-constraint on the other hand is pure-python, but also allows python functions to act as constraints... so you can do complex data structure calculations | 14:55 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: probing high-voltage if needed | 14:55 |
| chris_99 | ah neat | 14:55 |
| xentrac | nice | 14:55 |
| nmz787_i | http://hackerfriendly.com/tag/sem/ | 14:56 |
| nmz787_i | that is the guy who got his working after some random person offered it to him | 14:57 |
| chris_99 | awesome | 14:58 |
| ebowden | I suppose you'll be taking pointers. | 15:00 |
| nmz787_i | we chatted a bit | 15:00 |
| ebowden | Any late nights? | 15:00 |
| ebowden | (On your hobby and job.) | 15:00 |
| nmz787_i | he told me to get the big resistor, and start probing with a cheap volt meter | 15:00 |
| nmz787_i | said if it is just the beam raster generator it should be pretty low voltage (sounded pretty confident less than 50V) | 15:01 |
| nmz787_i | ebowden: missile guidance systems jobs sound like they'd pay a lot ;) | 15:01 |
| ebowden | You're damn right they would. | 15:02 |
| nmz787_i | but also that they'd have high stringency on formal validation (which is a skill I don't posses currently, though wouldn't be opposed to learning about.. it does sound tedious though) | 15:02 |
| nmz787_i | and general no bugs attitude | 15:02 |
| ebowden | I'd imagine that would require a lot of resources. | 15:03 |
| ebowden | No line of code unchecked. | 15:04 |
| ebowden | Sort of like NASA does. | 15:04 |
| nmz787_i | 100% test coverage | 15:04 |
| nmz787_i | or maybe even taking something like a SAT solver on the control flow structure of the code... to determine not just line coverage, but logic flow path coverage ??? | 15:05 |
| ebowden | Maybe you could build missile guidance systems for the masses. | 15:05 |
| nmz787_i | g2g eat now | 15:05 |
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| ebowden | I wonder if there will ever be protein based recreational drugs. | 15:15 |
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| CaptHindsight | the keratin slip-n-slide! | 15:21 |
| ebowden | CaptHindsight, for the record, was it me wasting your time or were you talking about the people that wanted seven kilos at ten thousand kilo prices? | 15:28 |
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| CaptHindsight | people that don't value their own time so they don't value anyone's | 15:37 |
| CaptHindsight | or expect you to pay for 200kg of raw materials to make their 10kg and charge them for only 10kg | 15:38 |
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| ebowden | Ah, so it wasn't about my asking about the feasibility of making LM11A-31 at low cost? | 15:42 |
| ebowden | (Given its structure.) | 15:42 |
| ebowden | It's a 4-substituted morpholine. | 15:48 |
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| ebowden | Ooooh: http://www.cnchemicals.com/Press/82501-China:Falling%20price%20of%20diethanolamine%20hard%20to%20support%20glyphosate%20price%20in%202015%20.html | 15:51 |
| ebowden | From that, morpholine is made. | 15:51 |
| ebowden | Maybe the price has recovered already. | 15:54 |
| ebowden | Well, 4-ethylmorpholine is normally pretty cheap. | 16:03 |
| ebowden | This is a tempting precursor, but expensive. | 16:13 |
| ebowden | https://www.alfa.com/en/catalog/B21365/ | 16:13 |
| ebowden | This is considerably cheaper, but it might be a pain in the ass to synth the compound from: | 16:15 |
| ebowden | https://www.alfa.com/en/catalog/A11905/ | 16:15 |
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| kanzure | looks like a manga artist gets $1k yen/page | 17:36 |
| kanzure | which is about $10 | 17:38 |
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| kanzure | nothing about this is realistic http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/sites/default/files/upload/0716CW_The-Crucible_300m.jpg | 18:10 |
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| nmz787_i | ebowden: I think the chemical in miracle berries is a glycoprotein... and I know people have been known to use miracle berry extract as a central element to food parties (so you might say it is a party drug, I guess) | 19:26 |
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| nmz787_i | took my buddy on a tour of Norsam, got to see some pipettes get pulled on the Sutter machine | 19:29 |
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| nmz787_i | .tell chris_99 have you heard of this audio/DSP library/language/tool http://faust.grame.fr/download/ ? | 19:54 |
| yoleaux | nmz787_i: I'll pass your message to chris_99. | 19:54 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 19:54 |
| yoleaux | Download | 19:54 |
| nmz787_i | .wik faust | 19:54 |
| yoleaux | "Faust is the protagonist of a classic German legend. He is a scholar who is highly successful yet dissatisfied with his life, which leads him to make a pact with the Devil, exchanging his soul for unlimited knowledge and worldly pleasures." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faust | 19:54 |
| nmz787_i | .wik faust software | 19:54 |
| yoleaux | nmz787_i: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. | 19:54 |
| nmz787_i | .wik FAUST (programming language) | 19:55 |
| yoleaux | "FAUST (Functional AUdio STream) is a domain-specific purely functional programming language for implementing signal processing algorithms in the form of libraries, audio plug-ins, or standalone applications. A FAUST program denotes a signal processor: a mathematical function that is applied to some input signal and then fed out." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAUST_(programming_language) | 19:55 |
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| xentrac | 22:05 < ebowden> Maybe you could build missile guidance systems for the masses. | 20:37 |
| xentrac | I think this would be a bad idea; it is a more imminent threat of ending civilization than Bitcoin or AGI | 20:39 |
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| nmz787 | xentrac: well that kind of thinking won't prevent the missile guidance system development already underway... I guess it is a cost:benefit thing... would learning missile guidance principals be more useful post that-project than bitcoin or AGI skills would be | 21:01 |
| nmz787 | you can use missiles against rogue AGI | 21:01 |
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| ebowden | CaptHindsight, how expensive are Grignard reactions on larger scales? Does it sometimes end up more practical to do them solventless due to all the anhydrous stuff you'd need? | 21:04 |
| ebowden | I suppose solventless can be great if you want it more "green". | 21:08 |
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| xentrac | nmz787: sure, my grandfather designed missile guidance systems in the 1950s | 21:34 |
| xentrac | there are a significant number of missile guidance systems already killing people | 21:35 |
| xentrac | but most of them are in the hands of entities that are vulnerable to retaliation, like, say, the Iranian military. distributing missile guidance software to random Iranians would likely lead to much bigger problems | 21:36 |
| xentrac | I mean I think you can make a reasonable case that the Bronze Age Collapse was likely due to new military tactics that strongly favored attack over defense, and it would be nice to see if we can hold off the collapse of our current civilization for, say, ten years, so that we can build up resilience | 21:38 |
| xentrac | not, I think, to rogue AGI, although I could be wrong | 21:39 |
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| nmz787 | I guess you could also say that learning about missile guidance systems would allow you to mount effective defenses against them (or provide insight to those people) | 22:08 |
| ebowden | Or just design better ones. | 22:15 |
| nmz787 | is your dad teaching online courses? | 22:19 |
| nmz787 | :) | 22:19 |
| ebowden | No. Why do you ask? | 22:19 |
| nmz787 | just since you mentioned he did that kind of development | 22:20 |
| nmz787 | oh | 22:20 |
| nmz787 | sorry, your grandfather | 22:20 |
| nmz787 | derp | 22:20 |
| ebowden | xentrac said his grandfather did it. | 22:21 |
| ebowden | My grandfather worked in surface physics. | 22:22 |
| kanzure | hm | 22:22 |
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| nmz787 | oh, sorry, I am not concentrating and am tired... reading about multitasking in micropython | 22:36 |
| nmz787 | ebowden: that sounds pretty cool though... my grandfathers were: trucker; road-builder (heavy equipment operator) | 22:36 |
| ebowden | My other grandfather was a soldier, then a miner and union rep. | 22:51 |
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| nmz787 | I guess the trucker was in the army | 23:05 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 23:06 |
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