From: Jonathan Voss <k98kurz@gmail•com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Post-Quantum commit / reveal Fawkescoin variant as a soft fork
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2025 11:54:08 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <16f0f405-3f39-498e-9399-a6050773c4c7n@googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <aD2J9HNJUqaod0n2@petertodd.org>
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If using a monetary network requires out-of-band payments, then that
severely limits the actual utility of the monetary network as a medium of
exchange. Imagine if the only way to make a bank transfer was to first go
in-person to the bank of the recipient of the transfer to give them
something that then allowed your bank to make the transfer -- it would be
an unworkable monetary system. Similarly, if future Bitcoin transactions
require making out-of-band payments, then it has failed as a monetary
network with an endogenous unit of account. The whole system has to work
without reliance upon exogenous monetary media or mechanisms. As such, the
commit-and-reveal scheme fails to maintain the monetary properties of the
network as a whole unless we assert reliance upon altruism to get the
commitments into the blockchain, which instead breaks the incentive-based
game theoretic design. Maybe it would work as a stop-gap solution in the
event of the advent of a relevant quantum computer, but it is certainly not
a good long-term plan as currently formulated.
Recall the original premise: "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash
System". If you can't transact with it as cash, i.e. as the ultimate
endogenous settlement mechanism, then it is no longer Bitcoin. Requiring an
exogenous system fundamentally breaks the model.
-- Jonathan
On Monday, June 2, 2025 at 9:53:55 AM UTC-4 Peter Todd wrote:
> On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 03:00:41PM -0700, Jonathan Voss wrote:
> > As far as I can tell, the main flaw in commit/reveal protocols is in the
> > commit phase: if revealing a commitment with N confirmations is required
> to
> > spend bitcoins, then, without spending any bitcoins, how do you get the
> > commitment into the blockchain in the first place? Maybe I am just
> > misunderstanding this. If so, then a commit/reveal scheme may be a
> workable
> > solution.
>
> You can always purchase new BTC to perform the commitment.
>
> Indeed, this problem is often seen in alt-coins where fees must be paid in
> a
> native asset, while users are trying to send some kind of tokenized asset
> like
> a USD token. You can have funds that you can't move because you don't have
> the
> correct asset. While annoying, this isn't a fatal problem.
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-06-04 7:56 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 12+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-05-28 17:14 Tadge Dryja
2025-05-28 18:20 ` Sergio Demian Lerner
2025-05-28 20:24 ` Nagaev Boris
2025-05-30 22:00 ` Jonathan Voss
2025-06-02 11:24 ` Peter Todd
2025-06-02 15:50 ` Q C
2025-06-02 18:54 ` Jonathan Voss [this message]
2025-06-05 14:33 ` 'conduition' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-06-02 17:38 ` waxwing/ AdamISZ
2025-06-02 19:34 ` 'conduition' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-06-02 22:50 ` Nagaev Boris
2025-05-31 16:07 ` [bitcoindev] " waxwing/ AdamISZ
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