From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org>
To: "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik@bitpay•com>,
"Mark Friedenbach" <mark@friedenbach•org>,
"Jorge Timón" <jtimon@blockstream•io>
Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 01:15:02 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1A8F9DE6-14AF-429D-9C1D-4BE66E917D90@petertodd.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAJHLa0M4Tc7kiQVNmBfMBvSqFyrmHXdaNh7mF+crAdME5FUWHg@mail.gmail.com>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On 21 February 2015 17:47:28 GMT-05:00, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
>"scorched earth" refers to the _real world_ impact such policies would
>have on present-day 0-conf usage within the bitcoin community.
I think you guys are reading too much into the name... Replace-by-fee is called "replace-by-fee" because it considers whether to replace or not based on fee; the idea came about in an discussion about replacement based on nSequence.
I forget whether it was myself or John Dillon who came up with the name "scorched earth", but it just refers to the game theory behind the *specific* idea of the receiver combating a zeroconf double-spend by sending all the funds to fees. Scorched earth as in "You're trying to defraud me, so I'm not going yo play this game or negotiate, I'm just going to immediately do what is most likely to make you lose the maximum amount of money to punish you for your vandalism."
>All payment processors AFAIK process transactions through some scoring
>system, then accept 0-conf transactions for payments.
>
>This isn't some theoretical exercise. Like it or not many use
>insecure 0-conf transactions for rapid payments. Deploying something
>that makes 0-conf transactions unusable would have a wide, negative
>impact on present day bitcoin payments, thus "scorched earth"
I'm not so convinced, precisely because we've seen zeroconf fail in pretty bad ways; the people most vulnerable to losses have generally changed the way they operate. (e.g. ATM's that no longer rely on zeroconf security, instead waiting for confirmations, installing cameras, etc.)
My #1 concern right now is person-to-person trading, and people doing that tend to wait for confirmations or otherwise protect themselves. (e.g. reputation systems)
>Without adequate decentralized solutions for instant payments,
>deploying replace-by-fee widely would simply push instant transactions
>even more into the realm of centralized, walled-garden services.
Agreed. Deploying it has been something I've made into a long, drawn out, protracted process for precisely that reason. OTOH I sometimes wonder if I've gone too far with that - the services that themselves try to guarantee zeroconf right now through metrics are themselves highly centralised, and there's a big risk of them driving mining centralisation itself when they fail.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQE9BAEBCAAnIBxQZXRlciBUb2RkIDxwZXRlQHBldGVydG9kZC5vcmc+BQJU6S2N
AAoJEMCF8hzn9LncrFUH/1xhuPhYJnjTCxhpv2h5ZJOT3wLsrU1oEDmD5fWy/4wG
7ppr3EiHNX7nB42fgeSGZF8fW1VuBjivJa9ra3IvFysFfaD40Kyre2FTnN03+vTC
Upa5ykPzOMqZIHkSf8N1xMbz4SXHHPWu8wPMzj/QGvUpllNiOWn/6Vooqrcp7f6Y
NJFykSq+vDNMOUWCiJG8hhoKiOcZhTH0Aj9qPcGs9WhgsF7wDAX7pg6iO6Y5qmt5
LdFcut2caL6mIxpExm0F9V+lyeam/3gvAU3eecHY77KOxRxFTO1xfQXEJFTWN92h
+M9BXQZ1UifjTZWMzK0kp3SRJuVSXg4KOAapQFBLTzU=
=3Mmw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-02-22 1:15 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 79+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-02-12 6:47 Peter Todd
2015-02-12 7:23 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 7:45 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 8:27 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 8:49 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 9:01 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-15 20:51 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-12 8:16 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 11:58 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 12:23 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 12:49 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 13:02 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 13:44 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 14:36 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 14:53 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 15:20 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 15:30 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 13:36 ` Oleg Andreev
2015-02-12 12:52 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 13:18 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 13:45 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 13:52 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 14:04 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 14:16 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 14:25 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 23:08 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-12 14:32 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 15:15 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 15:32 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 15:42 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 15:54 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 16:57 ` Btc Drak
2015-02-12 17:24 ` Oleg Andreev
2015-02-12 18:11 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 18:37 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-02-12 19:15 ` Alan Reiner
2015-02-12 19:34 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 19:45 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 19:49 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 19:47 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-02-12 19:52 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 20:02 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 20:36 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-02-14 14:47 ` Ross Nicoll
2015-02-12 20:06 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 19:49 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-02-12 20:18 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-13 11:34 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 12:54 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 14:42 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 15:27 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-15 21:25 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-15 21:40 ` Adam Gibson
2015-02-19 8:56 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-21 19:09 ` Jorge Timón
2015-02-21 20:30 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-02-21 22:47 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-22 1:15 ` Peter Todd [this message]
2015-02-22 3:25 ` Jorge Timón
2015-02-22 4:06 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-22 11:41 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-22 12:06 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-22 13:41 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-22 13:53 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-22 23:29 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-24 1:11 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-03-01 17:59 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-03-01 19:05 ` Neil Fincham
2015-03-01 17:44 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-12 16:15 ` Lawrence Nahum
2015-02-12 18:14 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-12 21:40 ` Josh Lehan
2015-02-22 16:36 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-22 17:12 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-22 19:25 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-22 21:50 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-04 4:36 ` [Bitcoin-development] New release of replace-by-fee for Bitcoin Core v0.10.1 Peter Todd
2015-05-05 2:23 ` Kevin Greene
2015-05-23 18:26 ` [Bitcoin-development] Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin Wallet Peter Todd
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=1A8F9DE6-14AF-429D-9C1D-4BE66E917D90@petertodd.org \
--to=pete@petertodd$(echo .)org \
--cc=bitcoin-development@lists$(echo .)sourceforge.net \
--cc=jgarzik@bitpay$(echo .)com \
--cc=jtimon@blockstream$(echo .)io \
--cc=mark@friedenbach$(echo .)org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox