From: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail•com>
To: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Recursive covenant opposition, or the absence thereof, was Re: TXHASH + CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY in lieu of CTV and ANYPREVOUT
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:06:50 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1b6c8b2b-63ff-8cd5-076f-6e15da678a36@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAGpPWDak4=ter4UT6VHbAWyA4ckkHc6zORsX4JZ3nF6qz0tb9Q@mail.gmail.com>
On 3/4/2022 7:35 AM, Billy Tetrud wrote:
>> sidechains cannot exist without their mainchain ...
>
> A sidechain could stop supporting deposits from or withdrawals to
> bitcoin and completely break any relationship with the main chain.
> I agree this is not as sure of a thing as starting with an altcoin
> (which of course never has that kind of relationship with bitcoin).
> So I do think there are some merits to sidechains in your scenario.
> However, I don't think its quite accurate to say it completely
> solves the problem (of a less-secure altcoin becoming dominant).
It is hard to see how this "sidechain cuts off the mainchain" scenario
could plausibly be in enough people's interest:
* Miners would lose the block subsidy (ie, the 6.25 BTC, or whatever of
it that still remains), and txn fees from the mainchain and all other
merged mined chains.
* Developers would lose the ability to create a dissenting new piece of
software (and would instead be forced into a permanent USSR-style "one
party system" intellectual monoculture).
* Users would lose --permanently-- the ability to take their coins to
new blockchains, removing almost all of their leverage.
Furthermore, because sidechains cannot exist without their parent (but
not vice-versa), we can expect a large permanent interest in keeping
mainchain node costs low. Aka: very small mainchain blocks forever. So,
the shut-it-down mainchain-haters, would have to meet the question "why
not just leave things the way they are?". And the cheaper the
mainchain-nodes are, the harder that question is to answer.
However, if a sidechain really were so overwhelmingly popular as to
clear all of these hurdles, then I would first want to understand why it
is so popular. Maybe it is a good thing and we should cheer it on.
> Your anecdote about not running a full node is amusing, and I've often
> found myself in that position. I certainly agree different people are
> different and so different trade offs can be better for different
> people. However, the question is: what tradeoffs does a largeblock
> sidechain do better than both eg Visa and lightning?
Yes, that's true. There are very many tradeoffs in general:
1. Onboarding
2. Route Capacity / Payment Limits
3. Failed Payments
4. Speed of Payment
5. Receive while offline / need for interaction/monitoring/watchtowers
6. Micropayments
7. Types of fees charged, and for what
8. Contribution to layer1 security budget
9. Auditability (re: large organizations) / general complexity
LN is certainly better for 4 and 6. But everything else is probably up
for grabs. And this is not intended to be an exhaustive list. I just
made it up now.
(And, if the layer2 is harmless, then its existence can be justified via
one single net benefit, for some users, somewhere on the tradeoff-list.)
Paul
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-03-04 20:06 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 61+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-01-26 17:20 [bitcoin-dev] " Russell O'Connor
2022-01-26 22:16 ` Jeremy
2022-01-27 4:20 ` James Lu
2022-01-27 19:16 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-01-28 0:18 ` James O'Beirne
2022-01-28 13:14 ` Michael Folkson
2022-01-28 14:17 ` Anthony Towns
2022-01-28 16:38 ` Jeremy
2022-01-28 14:13 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-01-28 15:14 ` James O'Beirne
2022-01-29 15:43 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-01-29 17:02 ` Jeremy Rubin
[not found] ` <CAD5xwhjHv2EGYb33p2MRS=VSz=ciGwAsiafX1yRHjxQEXfykSA@mail.gmail.com>
2022-01-29 17:14 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-01-31 2:18 ` Anthony Towns
2022-01-28 1:34 ` Anthony Towns
2022-01-28 13:56 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-01 1:16 ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-08 2:16 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-17 14:27 ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-17 14:50 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-08 3:40 ` Rusty Russell
2022-02-08 4:34 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-11 0:55 ` [bitcoin-dev] Recursive covenant opposition, or the absence thereof, was " David A. Harding
2022-02-11 3:42 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-11 17:42 ` James O'Beirne
2022-02-11 18:12 ` digital vagabond
2022-02-12 10:54 ` darosior
2022-02-12 15:59 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-02-17 15:15 ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-18 7:34 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-23 11:28 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-23 18:14 ` Paul Sztorc
2022-02-24 2:20 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-24 6:53 ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-24 12:03 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-26 5:38 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-02-26 6:43 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-27 0:58 ` Paul Sztorc
2022-02-27 2:00 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-27 7:25 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-27 16:59 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-02-27 23:50 ` Paul Sztorc
2022-02-28 0:20 ` Paul Sztorc
2022-02-28 6:49 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-28 7:55 ` vjudeu
2022-03-04 8:42 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-03-04 13:43 ` vjudeu
2022-02-28 22:54 ` Paul Sztorc
2022-03-01 5:39 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-02 0:00 ` Paul Sztorc
2022-03-04 12:35 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-03-04 20:06 ` Paul Sztorc [this message]
2022-02-26 6:00 ` Anthony Towns
2022-02-15 8:45 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Rusty Russell
2022-02-15 18:57 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-15 19:12 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-16 2:26 ` Rusty Russell
2022-02-16 4:10 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-02-14 2:40 [bitcoin-dev] Recursive covenant opposition, or the absence thereof, was " Lucky Star
2022-02-26 7:47 Prayank
2022-02-26 16:18 ` Billy Tetrud
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