From: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail•com>
To: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] LN & Coinjoin, a Great Tx Format Wedding
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 23:35:56 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <2-MilNWxNU5sCVK81AtIN7LhLButGQNbxgkr50rzsCvd5FqrD3VHBKCWjlxeFXYbKzC1XX5jm8NpzQUR95TGyupYqL6ggL8rPObGYC0AYWE=@protonmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALZpt+H6g4ak_kzbNr-QwTd04YwqBqkmHL4ZYPxqxQLgtv9W6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Good morning Antoine,
> > On mutual closes, we should probably set `nLockTime` to the current blockheight + 1 as well.
> > This has greater benefit later in a Taproot world.
>
> I assume mutual closes would fall under the aforementioned tx construction proposal, so a closing may be a batch to fund other channels or
> splice existent ones.
Ah, that is indeed of great interest.
I proposed before to consider splicing as a form of merged closing plus funding, rather than a modification of channel state; in particular we might note that, for compatibility with our existing system, a spliced channel would have to change its short channel ID and channel ID, so it is arguably a different channel already.
>
> > A kind of non-equal-value CoinJoin could emulate a Lightning open + close, but most Lightning channels will have a large number of blocks (thousands or tens of thousands) between the open and the close; it seems unlikely that a short-term channel will exist > that matches the non-equal-value CoinJoin.
>
> That's a really acute point, utxo age and spending frequency may be obvious protocol leaks.
Yes; I am curious how JoinMarket reconciles how makers mix their coins vs. how takers do; presumably the tumbler.py emulates the behavior of a maker somehow.
> Splicing may help there because a LN node would do multiple chain writes during channel lifecycle for liquidity reasons but it's
> near-impossible to predict its frequency without deployment.
Long ago, I proposed an alternative to splicing, which would today be recognizable as a "submarine swap" or "lightning loop". https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2017-May/000692.html
Perhaps the frequencies of those operations may hint as to how much splicing would occur in practice in the future.
> Even with this, I do fear an analysis gap between Coinjoin spending delta and LN ones. A way to circumvent this would be for CoinjoinXT to timelock its PTG
> transactions to mimick actively-spliced LN channels. That's where adoption of a common format by other onchain transactions than LN ones would help a lot.
Well, one way to implement splice-in would be to have an output that is first dedicated to the splice-in, and *then* a separate transaction which actually does the splice-in.
This has a drawback of requiring an extra transaction, which wins us the facility to continue operation of the channel even while the splice-in transactions are being confirmed while retaining only one state.
(the latest proposal, I believe, does *not* use this construction, and instead requires both sides to maintain two sets of states, with one state being a fallback in case the splice-in gets double spent; but in times of high blockchain load this can lead to the channel having a two sets of states until blockchain load reduces.)
As it happens, my alternate proposal for CoinJoinXT is similar in that there are "entry transactions" that introduce coins into the PTG, which are needed to prevent participants from double-spending while the mix is on-going. https://zmnscpxj.github.io/bitcoin/coinjoinxt.html
Note the proposal differs from the original by waxwing, which requires backouts at each intermediate output, and the entry transactions are potential watermarks on the CoinJoinXT protocol as well.
A Chaumian CoinJoinXT cannot use backouts at each intermediate output since no participant should have any knowledge of how much each participant has contributed to each intermediate output, they only know they put so many funds in and so should get so many funds out.
Emulating LN splices mildly makes ConJoinXT less desirable, however, as the mix takes longer and is more costly.
>
> > Should always be on, even if we do not (yet) have a facility to re-interact to bump fees higher.
> > While it is true that a surveillor can determine that a transaction has in fact been replaced (by observing the mempool) and thus eliminate the set of transactions that arose from protocols that mark RBF but do not (yet) have a facility to bump fees higher, this > information is not permanently recorded on all fullnodes and at least we force surveillors to record this information themselves.
>
> Yes but if you do this for Core and given some merchants are refusing RBF transactions for onchain payments, people are going to complain...
Grumble grumble, all unconfirmed transaction are RBF because miners like money, grumble grumble, flagged RBF is just a node relay policy, grumble grumble, some humans sometimes, grumble grumble....
Does not Electrum do RBF by default?
Unless I have a lower-level agent that always enables RBF option when I install new Electrums, hmmm, maybe I should check first.
> Also see footnote on spurious-RBF about not-having facility to bump fees higher (you can sign multiple RBF transactions in 1-RTT and agree to broadcast them later to obfuscate mempool analysis).
1.5RTT with MuSig.
An issue here is that if not all participants contribute to the fees equally, then a participant who is paying lower fee or no fee has a mild incentive to just broadcast the highest-fee version and be done with it: forget the other transactions and just aim for the highest fee immediately, ignore the mempool state so you do not have to do all those calculations or even maintain a mempool, and so on.
This can be mitigated if all participants contribute equal or nearly-equally to the fees, though that complicates single-funding, and may violate Initiator Pays Principle (the initiator of an action should pay all fees related to the action, as otherwise it may be possible to create a null operation that the acceptor of the action ends up paying fees for, which can be used as a financial attack to drain acceptors).
> > However, it seems to me that we need to as well nail down the details of this format.
>
> Of course, just curious of people opinions right now but if it's a good way to solve the described problem, will draft a spec.
There may be other protocols interested in this as well --- for instance "submarine swaps" and "lightning loops", which are the same thing.
Regards,
ZmnSCPxj
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-02-24 23:36 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 8+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-02-21 22:17 Antoine Riard
2020-02-22 12:10 ` AdamISZ
2020-02-23 0:59 ` ZmnSCPxj
2020-02-24 17:58 ` Antoine Riard
2020-02-23 1:29 ` ZmnSCPxj
2020-02-24 18:26 ` Antoine Riard
2020-02-24 23:35 ` ZmnSCPxj [this message]
2020-02-25 19:16 ` Antoine Riard
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