* [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages
@ 2014-01-13 16:43 Pieter Wuille
2014-01-13 17:44 ` Andreas Schildbach
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Pieter Wuille @ 2014-01-13 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
Hi all,
while thinking about what use cases the stealth addresses covers, in
particular in addition to the payment protocol, I found it useful to
bring this up again.
currently, BIP70 says for "payment_url": Secure (usually https)
location where a Payment message (see below) may be sent to obtain a
PaymentACK.
The fact that this is optional makes the "memo" and "refund" and
"merchant_data" fields in the Payment message useless, as merchants
cannot rely on it, thus need to provide an alternative, thus nobody
would have a use for trying to use the in-Payment versions. If we
truly want the use of this Payment being sent be optional, I'd vote to
get rid of these and just send the transaction.
In particular in the case of more anonymous senders, if the Payment
message isn't sent, it may result in funds being transferred without a
way to know who to refund it to if something goes wrong.
That would be a pity. I think having bi-directional communication in
the protocol is one of the nicest things the payment protocol can add.
I would prefer to at least formulate it in the BIP as "location where
a Payment message must be attempted to be sent to". In case it fails,
it should probably be stored in the client and retried later.
As an optimization (and I believe this is what Mike plans to implement
in BitcoinJ), if a payment_url is present, it should be encouraged to
only send the payment there, and not broadcast the transaction at all
on the P2P network (minimizing the risk that the transaction confirms
without the payment being received; it can't be guaranteed however).
--
Pieter
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages
2014-01-13 16:43 [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages Pieter Wuille
@ 2014-01-13 17:44 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-13 17:56 ` Pieter Wuille
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Schildbach @ 2014-01-13 17:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
On 01/13/2014 05:43 PM, Pieter Wuille wrote:
> As an optimization (and I believe this is what Mike plans to implement
> in BitcoinJ), if a payment_url is present, it should be encouraged to
> only send the payment there, and not broadcast the transaction at all
> on the P2P network (minimizing the risk that the transaction confirms
> without the payment being received; it can't be guaranteed however).
Can you explain what the problem is here? The payment message can be
transmitted after the payment has been received through the P2P network.
Am I missing something?
Furthermore, if we give up the robustness of the P2P network, we will
likely end up with more failed payments. There is so much that can go
wrong when trying to connect via HTTP (proxies etc.), Bluetooth
endpoints can go away, etc. At least we should provide fallback
payment_url's in this case.
As for you proposal, just be aware I'd like to use the payment protocol
for face to face payments as well. That meant payment request via NFC or
QR, payment message and payment confirmations via Bluetooth. I think it
can be done by putting a Bluetooth mac address into the payment_url.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages
2014-01-13 17:44 ` Andreas Schildbach
@ 2014-01-13 17:56 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-01-13 22:24 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-14 9:40 ` Andreas Schildbach
0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Pieter Wuille @ 2014-01-13 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andreas Schildbach; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 6:44 PM, Andreas Schildbach
<andreas@schildbach•de> wrote:
> On 01/13/2014 05:43 PM, Pieter Wuille wrote:
>
>> As an optimization (and I believe this is what Mike plans to implement
>> in BitcoinJ), if a payment_url is present, it should be encouraged to
>> only send the payment there, and not broadcast the transaction at all
>> on the P2P network (minimizing the risk that the transaction confirms
>> without the payment being received; it can't be guaranteed however).
I want to avoid the case where a transaction confirms, but the
associated payment is not delivered. If there is a reasonable chance
that this case occurs in normal operation, it means the payment
transmission cannot be relied upon.
On the other hand, if the payment gets sent, but the transaction is
not broadcasted, it can be broadcasted by the receiver (who has much
more reason to do so; he wants to spend his money).
>
> Can you explain what the problem is here? The payment message can be
> transmitted after the payment has been received through the P2P network.
> Am I missing something?
So, yes, sending on the P2P network is fine, as long as everything is
done to get the payment delivered. Not broadcasting on P2P is just an
optimization that makes failures of not getting the transaction out
and not getting the payment delivered coincide better. I say just
optimization, as you can't rely on the fact that if the payment fails,
the transaction will also fail (the merchant may be malicious, make
the submission of the payment fail, but broadcast the transaction
anyway), so wallets must still be able to deal with this. Nonetheless,
I think it can increase the reliability of "payment being received for
otherwise confirming transactions".
>
> Furthermore, if we give up the robustness of the P2P network, we will
> likely end up with more failed payments. There is so much that can go
> wrong when trying to connect via HTTP (proxies etc.), Bluetooth
> endpoints can go away, etc. At least we should provide fallback
> payment_url's in this case.
That's a different issue. I'm very aware that payments over HTTP can
fail. The point is that I prefer the entire transaction to fail in
that case, instead, and focus on making the payment submission more
reliable.
>
> As for you proposal, just be aware I'd like to use the payment protocol
> for face to face payments as well. That meant payment request via NFC or
> QR, payment message and payment confirmations via Bluetooth. I think it
> can be done by putting a Bluetooth mac address into the payment_url.
I'm aware. What issues do you see?
--
Pieter
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages
2014-01-13 17:56 ` Pieter Wuille
@ 2014-01-13 22:24 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-14 9:40 ` Andreas Schildbach
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Schildbach @ 2014-01-13 22:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
Thanks for the explanation.
On 01/13/2014 06:56 PM, Pieter Wuille wrote:
>> As for you proposal, just be aware I'd like to use the payment protocol
>> for face to face payments as well. That meant payment request via NFC or
>> QR, payment message and payment confirmations via Bluetooth. I think it
>> can be done by putting a Bluetooth mac address into the payment_url.
>
> I'm aware. What issues do you see?
Looks good so far. Just wanted to keep you aware (-:
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages
2014-01-13 17:56 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-01-13 22:24 ` Andreas Schildbach
@ 2014-01-14 9:40 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-14 10:45 ` Mike Hearn
1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Schildbach @ 2014-01-14 9:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
On 01/13/2014 06:56 PM, Pieter Wuille wrote:
> I want to avoid the case where a transaction confirms, but the
> associated payment is not delivered. If there is a reasonable chance
> that this case occurs in normal operation, it means the payment
> transmission cannot be relied upon.
I was thinking about this some more. Generally I think you have a point.
However, there is one case I'm worried about.
Imagine you get a good offer (payment request) from a merchant. You
would like to accept that offer, however the merchant has changed his
mind. If you don't broadcast the payment to the blockchain, you won't
have a chance to accept and legally bind the offer. The merchant will
silently discard your payment messages.
At some point, you will involve a judge. If you can present the payment
request and the payment from the block chain, you're in a much better
position than if you just present a request but no confirmed payment.
I think in some cases you might want to broadcast your txn to the P2P
network, even if the payment messages get lost. What do you think?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages
2014-01-14 9:40 ` Andreas Schildbach
@ 2014-01-14 10:45 ` Mike Hearn
2014-01-14 11:01 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-14 11:41 ` Adam Back
0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Mike Hearn @ 2014-01-14 10:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andreas Schildbach; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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>
> Imagine you get a good offer (payment request) from a merchant. You
> would like to accept that offer, however the merchant has changed his
> mind.
Usually if the merchant has not delivered, then at that point it's not a
problem and he is allowed to change his mind. It's only if they change
their mind *after* you pay that it's a problem, right?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages
2014-01-14 10:45 ` Mike Hearn
@ 2014-01-14 11:01 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-14 11:41 ` Adam Back
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Schildbach @ 2014-01-14 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
On 01/14/2014 11:45 AM, Mike Hearn wrote:
> Imagine you get a good offer (payment request) from a merchant. You
> would like to accept that offer, however the merchant has changed his
> mind.
>
>
> Usually if the merchant has not delivered, then at that point it's not a
> problem and he is allowed to change his mind. It's only if they change
> their mind *after* you pay that it's a problem, right?
It was my understanding of the spec that a payment request is legally
binding one side for the specified amount of time.
Basically I offer you to sell you these 10 eggs (described in the memo)
for this amount if you accept until this time. I have even signed this
so you can know its me who made you the offer. If you accept (by
paying), the contract is valid and there should be nothing I can do
about it (except for extreme cases which are covered by law already).
Actually what good is the payment request if its not binding?
Why do we have an expiry time in the message?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages
2014-01-14 10:45 ` Mike Hearn
2014-01-14 11:01 ` Andreas Schildbach
@ 2014-01-14 11:41 ` Adam Back
2014-01-14 13:18 ` Adam Back
1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Adam Back @ 2014-01-14 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mike Hearn; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Andreas Schildbach
He's probably thinking of fair advertising rules. There are regulations
motivated by consumer protection/advertising standards (prevents merchant
listing attractive prices in media, and then when consumer goes to pay the
merchant says "oh actually that doesnt include X and Y, and the minimum
price is 10% more" after the user has already partly committed to the
purchase. Ryanair, an airline near and dear to Europeans ;) is infamous for
aggressive use of such tactics. Or worse systematic abuse of "sorry that
was a pricing mistake".
In trading situations its even more important, you're facing a dynamic
price, and revocable bids after acceptance but before payment allow system
gaming. There were court cases about such things and trading systems gamed.
So I think this is the use case to consider. Payment request is an offer,
payment message is an acceptance, transaction broadcast is settlment. After
acceptance the asker must not be allowed to retract ther ask.
Going back to Pieter's comment it seems there are two approaches: i) send
payment message to merchant, merchant broadcasts tx to network to claim
funds; ii) user broadcasts tx, and sends payment message to merchant.
In case i) the user is relying on the merchant in terms of retraction, for
many use-cases that doesnt matter, or consumer law says they can do that in
some places. Though transferable proof the merchant is systematically
retracting advertised offers could be indirectly useful as it maybe evidence
of unfair trading, which can result in censure for the merchant!
In case ii) I think Andreas has a point. Maybe the way to do that is to
also bind the transaction to the payment message. Eg include the hash of
the payment message in the tx (circular ref may have to use multisig
approach?), or as Timo Hanke's paper where the offer/acceptance contact hash
is bound to the address (ie the address paid is Q'=H(Q+H(contract)G).
Adam
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:45:59AM +0100, Mike Hearn wrote:
> Imagine you get a good offer (payment request) from a merchant. You
> would like to accept that offer, however the merchant has changed
> his
> mind.
>
> Usually if the merchant has not delivered, then at that point it's not
> a problem and he is allowed to change his mind. It's only if they
> change their mind *after* you pay that it's a problem, right?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages
2014-01-14 11:41 ` Adam Back
@ 2014-01-14 13:18 ` Adam Back
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Adam Back @ 2014-01-14 13:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mike Hearn; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Andreas Schildbach
Maybe even pay to (address derived from) contract hash has a hole: it
assumes the merchant cashes the funds (or cashes then reimburses via the
refund address). There is another rational (though abusive) move for the
merchant: let the buyers funds sit in limbo. Then the buyer has the onus to
go into disupte, maybe the seller is anonymous, in another country, or the
cost of dispute resolution more than the value lost, and anyway its not very
smart-contract like.
It might be better if the buyer has time-stamped evidence of having sent the
funds to the merchant, and evidence of non-collection of funds by the
merchant (by omission from the block chain).
Adam
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
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2014-01-13 16:43 [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol and reliable Payment messages Pieter Wuille
2014-01-13 17:44 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-13 17:56 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-01-13 22:24 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-14 9:40 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-14 10:45 ` Mike Hearn
2014-01-14 11:01 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-01-14 11:41 ` Adam Back
2014-01-14 13:18 ` Adam Back
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