* [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits
@ 2015-02-04 14:23 Isidor Zeuner
2015-02-06 1:17 ` Peter Todd
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Isidor Zeuner @ 2015-02-04 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Development
Hi there,
traditionally, the Bitcoin client strives to hide which output
addresses are change addresses going back to the payer. However,
especially with today's dynamically calculated miner fees, this
may often be ineffective:
A user sending a payment using the Bitcoin client will usually enter
the payment amount only up to the number of digits which are
considered to be significant enough. So, the least significant digits
will often be zero for the payment. With dynamically calculated miner
fees, this will often not be the case for the change amount, making it
easy for an observer to classify the output addresses.
A possible approach to handle this issue would be to add a randomized
offset amount to the payment amount. This offset amount can be small
in comparison to the payment amount.
Any thoughts?
Best regards,
Isidor
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits
2015-02-04 14:23 [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits Isidor Zeuner
@ 2015-02-06 1:17 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-06 3:16 ` Justus Ranvier
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-02-06 1:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Isidor Zeuner; +Cc: Bitcoin Development
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On Wed, Feb 04, 2015 at 03:23:23PM +0100, Isidor Zeuner wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> traditionally, the Bitcoin client strives to hide which output
> addresses are change addresses going back to the payer. However,
> especially with today's dynamically calculated miner fees, this
> may often be ineffective:
>
> A user sending a payment using the Bitcoin client will usually enter
> the payment amount only up to the number of digits which are
> considered to be significant enough. So, the least significant digits
> will often be zero for the payment. With dynamically calculated miner
> fees, this will often not be the case for the change amount, making it
> easy for an observer to classify the output addresses.
>
> A possible approach to handle this issue would be to add a randomized
> offset amount to the payment amount. This offset amount can be small
> in comparison to the payment amount.
>
> Any thoughts?
Have you looked at Armory? IIRC they do this kind of stuff.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
0000000000000000165ecbd638ec09226f84c34d3d775d34ca5df4abfa8cb57c
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits
2015-02-04 14:23 [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits Isidor Zeuner
2015-02-06 1:17 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-02-06 3:16 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-06 4:08 ` [Bitcoin-development] [SPAM] " Luke Dashjr
2015-02-06 10:11 ` [Bitcoin-development] " Wladimir
2015-02-06 18:21 ` Gregory Maxwell
3 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Justus Ranvier @ 2015-02-06 3:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2077 bytes --]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On 02/04/2015 02:23 PM, Isidor Zeuner wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> traditionally, the Bitcoin client strives to hide which output
> addresses are change addresses going back to the payer. However,
> especially with today's dynamically calculated miner fees, this may
> often be ineffective:
>
> A user sending a payment using the Bitcoin client will usually
> enter the payment amount only up to the number of digits which are
> considered to be significant enough. So, the least significant
> digits will often be zero for the payment. With dynamically
> calculated miner fees, this will often not be the case for the
> change amount, making it easy for an observer to classify the
> output addresses.
>
> A possible approach to handle this issue would be to add a
> randomized offset amount to the payment amount. This offset amount
> can be small in comparison to the payment amount.
Another possible approach is to randomize the number of change outputs
from transaction to transaction.
Doing this, it would be possible to make change outputs that mimic
real spends (low number of s.d.)
- --
Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible.
Learn how here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakOKJFtB-k
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [Bitcoin-development] [SPAM] Re: determining change addresses using the least significant digits
2015-02-06 3:16 ` Justus Ranvier
@ 2015-02-06 4:08 ` Luke Dashjr
0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Luke Dashjr @ 2015-02-06 4:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development; +Cc: Justus Ranvier
On Friday, February 06, 2015 3:16:13 AM Justus Ranvier wrote:
> On 02/04/2015 02:23 PM, Isidor Zeuner wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > traditionally, the Bitcoin client strives to hide which output
> > addresses are change addresses going back to the payer. However,
> > especially with today's dynamically calculated miner fees, this may
> > often be ineffective:
> >
> > A user sending a payment using the Bitcoin client will usually
> > enter the payment amount only up to the number of digits which are
> > considered to be significant enough. So, the least significant
> > digits will often be zero for the payment. With dynamically
> > calculated miner fees, this will often not be the case for the
> > change amount, making it easy for an observer to classify the
> > output addresses.
> >
> > A possible approach to handle this issue would be to add a
> > randomized offset amount to the payment amount. This offset amount
> > can be small in comparison to the payment amount.
>
> Another possible approach is to randomize the number of change outputs
> from transaction to transaction.
>
> Doing this, it would be possible to make change outputs that mimic
> real spends (low number of s.d.)
This uses more data.
Why not just round change down (effectively rounding fee up)?
Luke
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits
2015-02-04 14:23 [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits Isidor Zeuner
2015-02-06 1:17 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-06 3:16 ` Justus Ranvier
@ 2015-02-06 10:11 ` Wladimir
2015-02-06 15:08 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-06 18:21 ` Gregory Maxwell
3 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Wladimir @ 2015-02-06 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Isidor Zeuner; +Cc: Bitcoin Development
On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Isidor Zeuner
<cryptocurrencies@quidecco•de> wrote:
> A possible approach to handle this issue would be to add a randomized
> offset amount to the payment amount. This offset amount can be small
> in comparison to the payment amount.
>
> Any thoughts?
Adding/subtracting a randomized offset amount is one way, but there
have also been more sophisticated ideas to obfuscate the amount, e.g.
by adding multiple change outputs or even distributing over multiple
transactions (potentially coinjoined for further privacy).
Mike Hearn had some ideas regarding obfuscation of payment amounts,
which still make sense, and he wrote about them here:
https://medium.com/@octskyward/merge-avoidance-7f95a386692f
Wladimir
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits
2015-02-06 10:11 ` [Bitcoin-development] " Wladimir
@ 2015-02-06 15:08 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-06 17:50 ` Justus Ranvier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-02-06 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Wladimir; +Cc: Bitcoin Development
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Yes. You can certainly add additional inputs and outputs -- and as such
you can increase privacy and defrag your wallet at the same time.
On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail•com> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Isidor Zeuner
> <cryptocurrencies@quidecco•de> wrote:
>
> > A possible approach to handle this issue would be to add a randomized
> > offset amount to the payment amount. This offset amount can be small
> > in comparison to the payment amount.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>
> Adding/subtracting a randomized offset amount is one way, but there
> have also been more sophisticated ideas to obfuscate the amount, e.g.
> by adding multiple change outputs or even distributing over multiple
> transactions (potentially coinjoined for further privacy).
>
> Mike Hearn had some ideas regarding obfuscation of payment amounts,
> which still make sense, and he wrote about them here:
> https://medium.com/@octskyward/merge-avoidance-7f95a386692f
>
> Wladimir
>
>
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--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits
2015-02-06 15:08 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2015-02-06 17:50 ` Justus Ranvier
0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Justus Ranvier @ 2015-02-06 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1263 bytes --]
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Hash: SHA256
On 02/06/2015 03:08 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> Yes. You can certainly add additional inputs and outputs -- and as
> such you can increase privacy and defrag your wallet at the same
> time.
A lot could be done to make regular spends resemble CoinJoin
transactions and vice verse.
- --
Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible.
Learn how here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakOKJFtB-k
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits
2015-02-04 14:23 [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits Isidor Zeuner
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2015-02-06 10:11 ` [Bitcoin-development] " Wladimir
@ 2015-02-06 18:21 ` Gregory Maxwell
3 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2015-02-06 18:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Isidor Zeuner; +Cc: Bitcoin Development
On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Isidor Zeuner
<cryptocurrencies@quidecco•de> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> traditionally, the Bitcoin client strives to hide which output
> addresses are change addresses going back to the payer. However,
> especially with today's dynamically calculated miner fees, this
> may often be ineffective:
>
> A user sending a payment using the Bitcoin client will usually enter
> the payment amount only up to the number of digits which are
> considered to be significant enough. So, the least significant digits
> will often be zero for the payment. With dynamically calculated miner
> fees, this will often not be the case for the change amount, making it
> easy for an observer to classify the output addresses.
>
> A possible approach to handle this issue would be to add a randomized
> offset amount to the payment amount. This offset amount can be small
> in comparison to the payment amount.
Sending someone too much can really play hell with their accounting.
Unless you know they're okay with it, I wouldn't suggest it.
I often randomly round up the output when I'm paying to a depository
account... and I've thought that would be a useful feature to have,
but I dunno how to usefully present a UI for "pay at least X but
you're allowed to round-up up to 0.01 BTC more".
Another strategy is this: create two change outputs, with uniform
probablity make one equal to your payment amount (which is also nice
because if your payment amount models future payment amount the change
will be usefully sized) or split your change evenly.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
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Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
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2015-02-04 14:23 [Bitcoin-development] determining change addresses using the least significant digits Isidor Zeuner
2015-02-06 1:17 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-06 3:16 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-06 4:08 ` [Bitcoin-development] [SPAM] " Luke Dashjr
2015-02-06 10:11 ` [Bitcoin-development] " Wladimir
2015-02-06 15:08 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-06 17:50 ` Justus Ranvier
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