* [bitcoin-dev] "Compressed" headers stream
@ 2017-08-28 15:50 Riccardo Casatta
2017-08-28 16:13 ` Greg Sanders
[not found] ` <CAAS2fgS3uG=4vgFuObPKA_5MstoGm4AabO=60fhV3EU_0dvejg@mail.gmail.com>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Riccardo Casatta @ 2017-08-28 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
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Hi everyone,
the Bitcoin headers are probably the most condensed and important piece of
data in the world, their demand is expected to grow.
When sending a stream of continuous block headers, a common case in IBD and
in disconnected clients, I think there is a possible optimization of the
transmitted data:
The headers after the first could avoid transmitting the previous hash
cause the receiver could compute it by double hashing the previous header
(an operation he needs to do anyway to verify PoW).
In a long stream, for example 2016 headers, the savings in bandwidth are
about 32/80 ~= 40%
without compressed headers 2016*80=161280 bytes
with compressed headers 80+2015*48=96800 bytes
What do you think?
In OpenTimestamps calendars we are going to use this compression to give
lite-client a reasonable secure proofs (a full node give higher security
but isn't feasible in all situations, for example for in-browser
verification)
To speed up sync of a new client Electrum starts with the download of a file
<https://headers.electrum.org/blockchain_headers> ~36MB containing the
first 477637 headers.
For this kind of clients could be useful a common http API with fixed
position chunks to leverage http caching. For example /headers/2016/0
returns the headers from the genesis to the 2015 header included while
/headers/2016/1 gives the headers from the 2016th to the 4031.
Other endpoints could have chunks of 20160 blocks or 201600 such that with
about 10 http requests a client could fast sync the headers
--
Riccardo Casatta - @RCasatta <https://twitter.com/RCasatta>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] "Compressed" headers stream
2017-08-28 15:50 [bitcoin-dev] "Compressed" headers stream Riccardo Casatta
@ 2017-08-28 16:13 ` Greg Sanders
2017-08-28 16:25 ` Riccardo Casatta
[not found] ` <CAAS2fgS3uG=4vgFuObPKA_5MstoGm4AabO=60fhV3EU_0dvejg@mail.gmail.com>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Greg Sanders @ 2017-08-28 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Riccardo Casatta, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
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Is there any reason to believe that you need Bitcoin "full security" at all
for timestamping?
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Riccardo Casatta via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> the Bitcoin headers are probably the most condensed and important piece of
> data in the world, their demand is expected to grow.
>
> When sending a stream of continuous block headers, a common case in IBD
> and in disconnected clients, I think there is a possible optimization of
> the transmitted data:
> The headers after the first could avoid transmitting the previous hash
> cause the receiver could compute it by double hashing the previous header
> (an operation he needs to do anyway to verify PoW).
> In a long stream, for example 2016 headers, the savings in bandwidth are
> about 32/80 ~= 40%
> without compressed headers 2016*80=161280 bytes
> with compressed headers 80+2015*48=96800 bytes
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> In OpenTimestamps calendars we are going to use this compression to give
> lite-client a reasonable secure proofs (a full node give higher security
> but isn't feasible in all situations, for example for in-browser
> verification)
> To speed up sync of a new client Electrum starts with the download of a
> file <https://headers.electrum.org/blockchain_headers> ~36MB containing
> the first 477637 headers.
> For this kind of clients could be useful a common http API with fixed
> position chunks to leverage http caching. For example /headers/2016/0
> returns the headers from the genesis to the 2015 header included while
> /headers/2016/1 gives the headers from the 2016th to the 4031.
> Other endpoints could have chunks of 20160 blocks or 201600 such that with
> about 10 http requests a client could fast sync the headers
>
>
> --
> Riccardo Casatta - @RCasatta <https://twitter.com/RCasatta>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] "Compressed" headers stream
2017-08-28 16:13 ` Greg Sanders
@ 2017-08-28 16:25 ` Riccardo Casatta
2017-08-28 16:26 ` Greg Sanders
0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Riccardo Casatta @ 2017-08-28 16:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Greg Sanders; +Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
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2017-08-28 18:13 GMT+02:00 Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail•com>:
> Is there any reason to believe that you need Bitcoin "full security" at
> all for timestamping?
>
This is a little bit out of the main topic of the email which is the
savings in bandwidth in transmitting headers, any comment about that?
P.S. As a personal experience timestamping is nowadays used to prove date
and integrity of private databases containing a lot of value, so yes, in
that cases I will go with Bitcoin "full security"
>
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Riccardo Casatta via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> the Bitcoin headers are probably the most condensed and important piece
>> of data in the world, their demand is expected to grow.
>>
>> When sending a stream of continuous block headers, a common case in IBD
>> and in disconnected clients, I think there is a possible optimization of
>> the transmitted data:
>> The headers after the first could avoid transmitting the previous hash
>> cause the receiver could compute it by double hashing the previous header
>> (an operation he needs to do anyway to verify PoW).
>> In a long stream, for example 2016 headers, the savings in bandwidth are
>> about 32/80 ~= 40%
>> without compressed headers 2016*80=161280 bytes
>> with compressed headers 80+2015*48=96800 bytes
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>>
>> In OpenTimestamps calendars we are going to use this compression to give
>> lite-client a reasonable secure proofs (a full node give higher security
>> but isn't feasible in all situations, for example for in-browser
>> verification)
>> To speed up sync of a new client Electrum starts with the download of a
>> file <https://headers.electrum.org/blockchain_headers> ~36MB containing
>> the first 477637 headers.
>> For this kind of clients could be useful a common http API with fixed
>> position chunks to leverage http caching. For example /headers/2016/0
>> returns the headers from the genesis to the 2015 header included while
>> /headers/2016/1 gives the headers from the 2016th to the 4031.
>> Other endpoints could have chunks of 20160 blocks or 201600 such that
>> with about 10 http requests a client could fast sync the headers
>>
>>
>> --
>> Riccardo Casatta - @RCasatta <https://twitter.com/RCasatta>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
--
Riccardo Casatta - @RCasatta <https://twitter.com/RCasatta>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] "Compressed" headers stream
2017-08-28 16:25 ` Riccardo Casatta
@ 2017-08-28 16:26 ` Greg Sanders
2017-09-04 14:10 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Greg Sanders @ 2017-08-28 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Riccardo Casatta; +Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
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Well, if anything my question may bolster your use-case. If there's a
heavier chain that is invalid, I kind of doubt it matters for timestamping
reasons.
/digression
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Riccardo Casatta <
riccardo.casatta@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> 2017-08-28 18:13 GMT+02:00 Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail•com>:
>
>> Is there any reason to believe that you need Bitcoin "full security" at
>> all for timestamping?
>>
>
> This is a little bit out of the main topic of the email which is the
> savings in bandwidth in transmitting headers, any comment about that?
>
>
> P.S. As a personal experience timestamping is nowadays used to prove date
> and integrity of private databases containing a lot of value, so yes, in
> that cases I will go with Bitcoin "full security"
>
>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Riccardo Casatta via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> the Bitcoin headers are probably the most condensed and important piece
>>> of data in the world, their demand is expected to grow.
>>>
>>> When sending a stream of continuous block headers, a common case in IBD
>>> and in disconnected clients, I think there is a possible optimization of
>>> the transmitted data:
>>> The headers after the first could avoid transmitting the previous hash
>>> cause the receiver could compute it by double hashing the previous header
>>> (an operation he needs to do anyway to verify PoW).
>>> In a long stream, for example 2016 headers, the savings in bandwidth are
>>> about 32/80 ~= 40%
>>> without compressed headers 2016*80=161280 bytes
>>> with compressed headers 80+2015*48=96800 bytes
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>>
>>> In OpenTimestamps calendars we are going to use this compression to give
>>> lite-client a reasonable secure proofs (a full node give higher security
>>> but isn't feasible in all situations, for example for in-browser
>>> verification)
>>> To speed up sync of a new client Electrum starts with the download of a
>>> file <https://headers.electrum.org/blockchain_headers> ~36MB containing
>>> the first 477637 headers.
>>> For this kind of clients could be useful a common http API with fixed
>>> position chunks to leverage http caching. For example /headers/2016/0
>>> returns the headers from the genesis to the 2015 header included while
>>> /headers/2016/1 gives the headers from the 2016th to the 4031.
>>> Other endpoints could have chunks of 20160 blocks or 201600 such that
>>> with about 10 http requests a client could fast sync the headers
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Riccardo Casatta - @RCasatta <https://twitter.com/RCasatta>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Riccardo Casatta - @RCasatta <https://twitter.com/RCasatta>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] "Compressed" headers stream
2017-08-28 16:26 ` Greg Sanders
@ 2017-09-04 14:10 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2017-09-04 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Greg Sanders, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
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On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 12:26:48PM -0400, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> Well, if anything my question may bolster your use-case. If there's a
> heavier chain that is invalid, I kind of doubt it matters for timestamping
> reasons.
Timestamping can easily be *more* vulnerable to malicious miners than financial
applications for a number of reasons, including the fact that there's no
financial feedback loop of miners destroying the value of the coins they
produce - timestamping is a non-financial piggy-back application that doesn't
directly interact with the Bitcoin economy, beyond a trival number of timestamp
transactions.
--
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <CAAS2fgS3uG=4vgFuObPKA_5MstoGm4AabO=60fhV3EU_0dvejg@mail.gmail.com>]
* [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: "Compressed" headers stream
[not found] ` <CAAS2fgS3uG=4vgFuObPKA_5MstoGm4AabO=60fhV3EU_0dvejg@mail.gmail.com>
@ 2017-08-28 17:12 ` Gregory Maxwell
2017-08-28 17:54 ` Kalle Rosenbaum
2017-09-04 14:06 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2017-08-28 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Riccardo Casatta via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> the Bitcoin headers are probably the most condensed and important piece of
> data in the world, their demand is expected to grow.
>
> When sending a stream of continuous block headers, a common case in IBD and
> in disconnected clients, I think there is a possible optimization of the
> transmitted data:
> The headers after the first could avoid transmitting the previous hash cause
> the receiver could compute it by double hashing the previous header (an
> operation he needs to do anyway to verify PoW).
> In a long stream, for example 2016 headers, the savings in bandwidth are
> about 32/80 ~= 40%
> without compressed headers 2016*80=161280 bytes
> with compressed headers 80+2015*48=96800 bytes
>
> What do you think?
You are leaving a lot of bytes on the table.
The bits field can only change every 2016 blocks (4 bytes per header),
the timestamp can not be less than the median of the last 11 and is
usually only a small amount over the last one (saves 2 bytes per
header), the block version is usually one of the last few (save 3
bytes per header).
But all these things improvements are just a constant factor. I think
you want the compact SPV proofs described in the appendix of the
sidechains whitepaper which creates log scaling proofs.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: "Compressed" headers stream
2017-08-28 17:12 ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Gregory Maxwell
@ 2017-08-28 17:54 ` Kalle Rosenbaum
2017-09-04 14:06 ` Peter Todd
1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Kalle Rosenbaum @ 2017-08-28 17:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gregory Maxwell, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
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2017-08-28 19:12 GMT+02:00 Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>:
>
> The bits field can only change every 2016 blocks (4 bytes per header),
> the timestamp can not be less than the median of the last 11 and is
> usually only a small amount over the last one (saves 2 bytes per
> header), the block version is usually one of the last few (save 3
> bytes per header).
>
... and I guess the nonce can be arbitrarily truncated as well, just brute
force the missing bits :-P.
> But all these things improvements are just a constant factor. I think
> you want the compact SPV proofs described in the appendix of the
> sidechains whitepaper which creates log scaling proofs.
>
I think that my blog post on compact spv proofs can be helpful also. It
tries to make the pretty compact formulations in the sidechains paper a bit
more graspable by normal people.
http://popeller.io/index.php/2016/09/15/compact-spv-proofs/
Kalle
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: "Compressed" headers stream
2017-08-28 17:12 ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Gregory Maxwell
2017-08-28 17:54 ` Kalle Rosenbaum
@ 2017-09-04 14:06 ` Peter Todd
1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2017-09-04 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gregory Maxwell, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
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On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 05:12:15PM +0000, Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> You are leaving a lot of bytes on the table.
>
> The bits field can only change every 2016 blocks (4 bytes per header),
> the timestamp can not be less than the median of the last 11 and is
> usually only a small amount over the last one (saves 2 bytes per
> header), the block version is usually one of the last few (save 3
> bytes per header).
>
> But all these things improvements are just a constant factor. I think
> you want the compact SPV proofs described in the appendix of the
> sidechains whitepaper which creates log scaling proofs.
Note that I'm already planning on OpenTimestamps having infrastructure for
trusted validity attestations; log scaling proofs alone only prove total work,
not validity. Timestamping has all kinds of very dubious security properties
when done via proof-of-work, due to various ways that miners can get away with
inaccurate block times. In particular, setting a block time backwards is
something that miners can do, particularly with majority hashing power, which
is the exact thing we're trying to prevent in a timestamp proof.
This all makes me dubious about risking further weakening of this already weak
security with compact SPV proofs; we'd need a lot more analysis to understand
what we're risking. Also note that we can ship a known-good
sum-merkle-tree tip hash with the software, which further reduces initial
download bandwidth needed to get the block headers on top of this obviously
safe eliding of redundant hashes.
--
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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2017-08-28 15:50 [bitcoin-dev] "Compressed" headers stream Riccardo Casatta
2017-08-28 16:13 ` Greg Sanders
2017-08-28 16:25 ` Riccardo Casatta
2017-08-28 16:26 ` Greg Sanders
2017-09-04 14:10 ` Peter Todd
[not found] ` <CAAS2fgS3uG=4vgFuObPKA_5MstoGm4AabO=60fhV3EU_0dvejg@mail.gmail.com>
2017-08-28 17:12 ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Gregory Maxwell
2017-08-28 17:54 ` Kalle Rosenbaum
2017-09-04 14:06 ` Peter Todd
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