From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org>
To: Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach•org>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Rebatable fees & incentive-safe fee markets
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 22:02:27 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20170929020227.GA12192@savin.petertodd.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <359FFE85-86AF-4FBD-9491-3528382E5002@friedenbach.org>
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On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 06:06:29PM -0700, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> Unlike other proposed fixes to the fee model, this is not trivially
> broken by paying the miner out of band. If you pay out of band fee
> instead of regular fee, then your transaction cannot be included with
> other regular fee paying transactions without the miner giving up all
> regular fee income. Any transaction paying less fee in-band than the
> otherwise minimum fee rate needs to also provide ~1Mvbyte * fee rate
> difference fee to make up for that lost income. So out of band fee is
> only realistically considered when it pays on top of a regular feerate
> paying transaction that would have been included in the block anyway.
> And what would be the point of that?
This proposed fix is itself broken, because the miner can easily include *only*
transactions paying out-of-band, at which point the fee can be anything.
Equally, miners can provide fee *rebates*, forcing up prices for everyone else
while still allowing them to make deals.
Also, remember that you can pay fees via anyone-can-spend outputs, as miners
have full ability to control what transactions end up spending those outputs.
The fact these countermeasures are all likely to be implemented - all of which
harm the overall ecosystem by reducing visibility of fees and making it harder
to compete with centralized miners - makes me very dubious about that proposal.
--
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2017-09-29 2:02 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 17+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2017-09-29 1:06 Mark Friedenbach
2017-09-29 1:53 ` Matt Corallo
2017-09-29 2:09 ` Nathan Wilcox
2017-09-29 2:10 ` Peter Todd
2017-09-29 2:17 ` Nathan Wilcox
2017-09-29 3:30 ` Mark Friedenbach
2017-09-29 2:02 ` Peter Todd [this message]
2017-09-29 2:45 ` Mark Friedenbach
2017-09-29 3:02 ` Peter Todd
2017-09-29 4:45 ` Anthony Towns
[not found] <CAEgR2PGCZ=F85yjAbZgC6NtzhpdgBL3n4M2jowN12wJ7x-Ai1A@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAEgR2PGrxDQE0k8WX4XXz9GN-RAL6JB51ST9Hdz=ba36gRCa6A@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAEgR2PFjt=ihzRBhNXbHTAJz1R+3vz8o-zRZkDA3iBo39x9cTQ@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAEgR2PFfSjJjkTYq+DAmTzmkHPxqhn6fUDoXTzrRebz+OoUgqw@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAEgR2PG5ZueHKDXbsPDEjQG7xAYBa_JAtPZo9n1V2=STC1srpA@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAEgR2PGPQ1e9SmoWOS3V+N9v+OWiM4g3nPN3d9urc+DfkWEJ7A@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAEgR2PEKkHH6+Sh8cQGF83-s1tpwQZgd0fiuNz_xyWu0mUPfCA@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAEgR2PEyWFO1RFohVEpcb-M7aM-8xjCFvDPeJPD4zF4yTCyZ0A@mail.gmail.com>
2017-09-29 10:43 ` Daniele Pinna
2017-09-29 12:50 ` Alex Morcos
2017-09-29 15:22 ` Mark Friedenbach
2017-09-30 3:53 ` Jorge Timón
2017-09-30 3:55 ` Jorge Timón
2017-09-30 8:54 ` Gregory Maxwell
2017-09-30 0:47 ` Gregory Maxwell
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