From: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect•com>
To: Chris Stewart <chris@suredbits•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Updating the Scaling Roadmap
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:24:28 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <26FE0468-7049-4BE0-948F-D5E40FE2CBAC@taoeffect.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAGL6+mHNMF9-v_6_ruvvhOenXCCsVhoG3aHkGvioOb-a9fokCQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Dear Chris,
> I think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into using drivechains.
I have heard this nonsense repeated countless times in order to justify adopting Drivechain.
This is not how security works.
A child can "opt-in" to using a loaded gun, but is it a good idea to make it easy for them to do that?
No.
This is effectively the same thing Drivechains is doing.
It is a request to modify the Bitcoin protocol to make it easy for Bitcoin users to give their Bitcoins to miners.
Does that sound like a good idea to anyone?
If so, please leave, you are compromising Bitcoin's security.
Security is about making it difficult to shoot yourself in the face.
If I design a car that has a button that randomly causes the brakes to give out if pressed, is that a good idea? Can I justify pushing for such a "feature" just because it's "opt-in"?
No. That is fallacy.
It is not how secure systems are designed.
It is how *insecure* systems are designed.
> Care to share? I'm unaware if there is.
Sure, happy to, as soon as I have it written up in detail.
Kind regards,
Greg Slepak
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA.
> On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Chris Stewart <chris@suredbits•com <mailto:chris@suredbits•com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> >Here, you admit that the security of the sidechains allows miners to steal bitcoins, something they cannot do currently.
>
> If I put my coins in an anyone can spend output, a miner will take them. They can do this today. I suggest you try it if you don't believe me :-). You have to be more specific with contract types instead of generically talking about 'all contracts ever'.
>
> > Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's security guarantees. This you have not denied.
>
> I think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into using drivechains. Other outputs such as P2PKH/Multisig etc are unaffected by a drivechain output. As Pieter Wuille stated earlier in this thread (and Paul has stated all along), drivechain outputs have a different security model than other contracts. Namely they are controlled by miners. I think we can all agree this is unfortunate, but it is the current reality we live in. I look forward to the day we can solve the 'ownership' problem so we can have trustless interoperable blockchains, but that day is not today.
>
> As a reminder, most users will not have to go through the drivechain withdrawal process. Most withdrawals will be done via atomic swaps.
>
> >There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's security in such a dramatic fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.
>
> Care to share? I'm unaware if there is.
>
> >https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.html <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.html>
>
> Everyone should re-read this email though, this is something that could happen. Paul's design makes it so that if this occurs it is *VERY* obvious. I guess we can argue if there is any difference between an obvious robbery vs a hidden robbery, but I think if we have to pick one or the other the choice is clear to me. Other designs (that I'm aware of) for sidechains had attack vectors that weren't so obvious.
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2017-07-12 19:24 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 57+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2017-07-10 16:50 Paul Sztorc
2017-07-11 16:03 ` Chris Stewart
2017-07-11 16:49 ` Adam Back
2017-07-11 20:01 ` Pieter Wuille
2017-07-11 20:36 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-11 21:40 ` Pieter Wuille
2017-07-11 22:49 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-11 21:16 ` CryptAxe
2017-07-11 20:18 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-11 21:31 ` Gregory Maxwell
2017-07-11 22:27 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-11 21:11 ` Gregory Maxwell
2017-07-11 21:40 ` Gregory Maxwell
2017-07-11 22:17 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-11 22:41 ` Tao Effect
2017-07-11 22:57 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-11 23:12 ` Tao Effect
2017-07-12 0:21 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-12 7:27 ` Jacob Eliosoff
2017-07-12 19:19 ` Chris Stewart
2017-07-12 19:24 ` Tao Effect [this message]
2017-07-12 19:34 ` Chris Stewart
2017-07-12 19:42 ` Tao Effect
2017-07-12 19:54 ` CryptAxe
2017-07-12 21:55 ` Tao Effect
2017-07-12 22:07 ` CryptAxe
2017-07-11 23:36 ` Bryan Bishop
2017-07-12 0:07 ` Gregory Maxwell
2017-07-12 1:40 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-12 2:48 ` Bryan Bishop
2017-07-12 3:33 ` Gregory Maxwell
2017-07-12 6:17 ` [bitcoin-dev] how to disable segwit in my build? Dan Libby
2017-07-13 1:04 ` Gregory Maxwell
2017-07-13 13:11 ` Federico Tenga
2017-07-13 13:39 ` Hampus Sjöberg
2017-07-13 16:19 ` Dan Libby
2017-07-13 16:35 ` Jameson Lopp
2017-07-13 21:58 ` Dan Libby
2017-07-13 22:50 ` Hampus Sjöberg
2017-07-13 23:20 ` Dan Libby
2017-07-14 8:52 ` Hampus Sjöberg
2017-07-14 9:03 ` Tier Nolan
2017-07-13 23:19 ` Lucas Clemente Vella
2017-07-13 16:05 ` Dan Libby
2017-07-14 21:11 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2017-07-13 1:48 ` Anthony Towns
2017-07-13 16:13 ` Dan Libby
2017-07-12 1:22 ` [bitcoin-dev] Updating the Scaling Roadmap Karl Johan Alm
2017-07-12 9:37 ` Tom Zander
2017-07-12 9:02 ` Tom Zander
2017-07-11 23:28 ` Anthony Towns
2017-07-17 17:13 ` [bitcoin-dev] Updating the Scaling Roadmap [Update] Paul Sztorc
2017-07-17 18:49 ` Alex Morcos
2017-07-17 20:13 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-17 21:50 ` Peter Todd
[not found] ` <20170717214704.ksegcrdqf3zeslah@fedora-23-dvm>
2017-07-17 22:04 ` Paul Sztorc
2017-07-11 22:26 [bitcoin-dev] Updating the Scaling Roadmap Steve Davis
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