* [Bitcoin-development] BIP 65 and OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY inquiry...
@ 2014-11-27 22:56 Richard Moore
2014-11-27 23:46 ` Gregory Maxwell
0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Richard Moore @ 2014-11-27 22:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
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Heya,
I was wondering about BIP 65 regarding the OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY, and thought it might make more sense to instead have a OP_CHECKLOCKTIME which would simply push an OP_TRUE or OP_FALSE onto the stack?
That way someone could include multiple OP_CHECKLOCKTIME conditions in a single script. It is trivial to always emulate OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY by using a OP_CHECKLOCKTIME OP_VERIFY sequence.
As a second question, would it possibly make more sense to, rather than relying on the nLockTime in a transaction, allow an opcode that would use similar semantics, but against an item in the stack? Then you could essentially include multiple nLockTimes in a single script and make arbitrarily interesting (complicated?) scripts based on block height and/or block timestamp.
The OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can still be easily implemented, by using
nLockTimeThatWouldBeInTx OP_CHECKLOCKTIME OP_VERIFY
Just something that came to mind while reading about OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY.
Thanks,
RicMoo
.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><(((º>
Richard Moore ~ Founder
Genetic Mistakes Software inc.
phone: (778) 882-6125
email: ricmoo@geneticmistakes•com <mailto:ricmoo@geneticmistakes•com>
www: http://GeneticMistakes.com <http://geneticmistakes.com/>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP 65 and OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY inquiry...
2014-11-27 22:56 [Bitcoin-development] BIP 65 and OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY inquiry Richard Moore
@ 2014-11-27 23:46 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-11-28 3:18 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-11-27 23:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Richard Moore; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:56 PM, Richard Moore <me@ricmoo•com> wrote:
> Heya,
>
> I was wondering about BIP 65 regarding the OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY, and
> thought it might make more sense to instead have a OP_CHECKLOCKTIME which
> would simply push an OP_TRUE or OP_FALSE onto the stack?
Updating the stack is not soft-fork compatible and any use would
immediately fork the network.
A invertible test is also not soft-fork compatible e.g. someone writes
a script that does {<new thing>) OP_NOT, in other words "the test
must fail", then the network would fork because older nodes would see
it as passing (which was the required criteria for non-forking the
network in the non-inverted caes).
You can happily get non-nullable true/false behaviour without these
risks by having the VERIFY test inside a branch and having the signer
provide its falseness as an input to the branch. This is explained in
the BIP.
E.g. OP_IF <limit> OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY OP_ELSE <what you'd do if it
doesn't pass> OP_END
A useful an powerful mental model is that SCRIPT is not running a
program, but instead the signer is proving to the network that they
know inputs that make the program return true.
(In practise we verify this by actually doing some execution, though
this isn't technically necessary it's the simplest thing to implement
although it is inefficient... but even in this simple model keeping in
mind that we're VERIFYING not executing in the network opens our eyes
to transformations like the IF bracketing of a VERIFY opcode.)
> That way someone could include multiple OP_CHECKLOCKTIME conditions in a
> single script.
They can do this, with the above approach.
> As a second question, would it possibly make more sense to, rather than
> relying on the nLockTime in a transaction, allow an opcode that would use
> similar semantics, but against an item in the stack? Then you could
> essentially include multiple nLockTimes in a single script and make
> arbitrarily interesting (complicated?) scripts based on block height and/or
> block timestamp.
>
> The OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can still be easily implemented, by using
>
> nLockTimeThatWouldBeInTx OP_CHECKLOCKTIME OP_VERIFY
Then the scripts validity isn't a pure function of the the
transaction, and once valid transactions could become invalid while in
the mempool. This breaks existing invariants and would make the coins
potentially less fungible because they wouldn't be reorg safe. That
locktime validity is basically monotonic is a useful intentional
property. :)
The things you're suggesting were all carefully designed out of the
proposal, perhaps the BIP text needs some more clarification to make
this more clear.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP 65 and OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY inquiry...
2014-11-27 23:46 ` Gregory Maxwell
@ 2014-11-28 3:18 ` Peter Todd
2014-11-28 11:45 ` Flavien Charlon
0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2014-11-28 3:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gregory Maxwell, Richard Moore; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On 27 November 2014 18:46:23 GMT-05:00, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
<snip 100% accurate commentary from gmaxwell>
>The things you're suggesting were all carefully designed out of the
>proposal, perhaps the BIP text needs some more clarification to make
>this more clear.
It does; it is still a draft. That said I think writing up some actual working examples, in code, of CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY using protocols is a bigger priority. Micropayment channels comes to mind, as well as a greenaddress-style wallet.
When I get a chance I'm going to rebase the initial implementation and add to it a command-line-flag to verify CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY as an IsStandard() rule for testing purposes.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP 65 and OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY inquiry...
2014-11-28 3:18 ` Peter Todd
@ 2014-11-28 11:45 ` Flavien Charlon
2014-11-28 12:03 ` Gregory Maxwell
0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Flavien Charlon @ 2014-11-28 11:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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> This breaks existing invariants and would make the coins potentially less
fungible because they wouldn't be reorg safe.
I'm not sure coins are ever reorg safe. All it takes is a double spend in
the history of your coins for them to become invalid after a reorg. Because
of that, there are already less fungible coins. This is why we recommend 6
confirmations for important payments.
On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 3:18 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
>
>
> On 27 November 2014 18:46:23 GMT-05:00, Gregory Maxwell <
> gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> <snip 100% accurate commentary from gmaxwell>
>
> >The things you're suggesting were all carefully designed out of the
> >proposal, perhaps the BIP text needs some more clarification to make
> >this more clear.
>
> It does; it is still a draft. That said I think writing up some actual
> working examples, in code, of CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY using protocols is a
> bigger priority. Micropayment channels comes to mind, as well as a
> greenaddress-style wallet.
>
> When I get a chance I'm going to rebase the initial implementation and add
> to it a command-line-flag to verify CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY as an IsStandard()
> rule for testing purposes.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP 65 and OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY inquiry...
2014-11-28 11:45 ` Flavien Charlon
@ 2014-11-28 12:03 ` Gregory Maxwell
0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-11-28 12:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Flavien Charlon; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Flavien Charlon
<flavien.charlon@coinprism•com> wrote:
>> This breaks existing invariants and would make the coins potentially less
>> fungible because they wouldn't be reorg safe.
>
> I'm not sure coins are ever reorg safe. All it takes is a double spend in
> the history of your coins for them to become invalid after a reorg. Because
> of that, there are already less fungible coins. This is why we recommend 6
> confirmations for important payments.
I used the word 'less' intentionally. A double spend requires an
active action. Roughly 1% of blocks are lost to reorganizations by
chance, longer otherwise harmless reorgs as we've had in the past
could forever destroy large chunks of coins if descendants had the
unwelcome properties of having additional constraints on them. Past
instances where the network had a dozen block reorganization which
were harmless and simply confirmed the same transactions likely would
have caused substantial losses if it reorganizations precluded the
recovery of many transactions which were valid when placed earlier in
the chain.
Additionally your '6 confirmations' is a uniform rule. The
recommendation is just a count, it's tidy. It's not a "traverse the
recent history of each coin you receive to determine if its script
conditions make it unusually fragile and subject to irrecoverable
loss", which is the space you can get into with layering violations
and transaction validity depending on arbitrary block data.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
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2014-11-27 22:56 [Bitcoin-development] BIP 65 and OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY inquiry Richard Moore
2014-11-27 23:46 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-11-28 3:18 ` Peter Todd
2014-11-28 11:45 ` Flavien Charlon
2014-11-28 12:03 ` Gregory Maxwell
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