From: justusranvier@riseup•net
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org>
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 15:39:15 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <47d8e5c4a1d55a1763f1aade1993fece@riseup.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20150619151127.GA11263@savin.petertodd.org>
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On 2015-06-19 15:11, Peter Todd wrote:
> If you ask me to pay you 1BTC at address A and I create tx1 that pays
> 1BTC to A1 and 2BTC of chain to C, what's wrong with me creating tx2
> that still pays 1BTC to A, but now only pays 1.999BTC to C? I'm not
> defrauding you, I'm just reducing the value of my change address to pay
> a higher fee. Similarly if I now need to pay Bob 0.5BTC, I can create
> tx3 paying 1BTC to A, 0.5BTC to B, and 1.498BTC to C.
>
> Yet from the point of view of an external observer they have no idea
> why
> the transaction outputs reduced in size, nor any way of knowing if
> fraud
> did or did not occur.
If there are two transactions which spend the same inputs, and each
transaction has completely different output scripts, then this is prima
facie fraudulent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_facie
If the two transactions have identical output scripts, and one output is
reduced in value to increase the transaction fee, that has the
appearance of honest dealing. There is a possibility that the payer has
chose to under-pay their payee in order to over-pay the miner, but
that's not what a reasonable observer would assume at first glance.
Adding outputs to a transaction, while keeping all the existing outputs
exactly how they are is another way of increasing the transaction fee of
a transaction and is prima facie non-fraudulent.
Note that child-pays-for-parent has none of this ambiguity.
> What do you think of Bitcoin XT then? It relays double-spends, which
> makes it much easier to get double-spends to miners than before. In
> particular you see a lot of zero-fee transactions being replaced by
> fee-paying transactions, relayed through Bitcoin XT nodes and then
> mined. Is that encouraging fraud?
I haven't closely looked into the features of Bitcoin XT because I'm
hoping that it never becomes relevant. I do want to see a heterogenous
implementation network develop, but Bitcoin XT doesn't really count
since it's a derivative of the Bitcoin Core codebase.
In general, I think every signed Bitcoin transaction sent between
different parties is part of a valid, enforceable contract (using common
law definitions which predate any particular legal jurisdiction).
Handling contracts and money is Serious Business and so the decision of
how software should respond to double spends should not be made
frivolously.
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-06-19 15:39 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 79+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-06-19 10:39 Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 14:00 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 14:08 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 14:30 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 14:59 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 15:20 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 15:40 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 16:18 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 16:37 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 20:39 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 21:05 ` Frank Flores
2015-06-19 21:15 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-20 0:47 ` Andreas Petersson
2015-06-20 1:09 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-06-20 1:23 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-06-20 3:07 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 3:48 ` Luke Dashjr
2015-06-20 4:02 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 16:43 ` Ivan Brightly
2015-06-20 17:38 ` Cameron Hejazi
2015-06-19 14:40 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 15:22 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Stephen Morse
2015-06-19 13:37 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 13:48 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 14:16 ` Lawrence Nahum
2015-06-19 13:40 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 13:44 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 15:43 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 19:49 ` Jeffrey Paul
2015-06-19 15:42 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 16:15 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 15:00 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 15:11 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 15:37 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 15:53 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 16:36 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 16:46 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:53 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 16:54 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 17:00 ` Tier Nolan
2015-06-20 23:20 ` Jorge Timón
2015-06-20 23:37 ` justusranvier
2015-06-21 0:19 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 0:27 ` justusranvier
2015-06-21 0:36 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 0:54 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 5:56 ` Tom Harding
2015-06-21 6:45 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-21 7:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 8:35 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 8:41 ` Btc Drak
2015-06-21 8:51 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 19:49 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-21 18:23 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-06-19 16:44 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 17:40 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 17:48 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 17:50 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 18:00 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 16:50 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-06-19 16:41 ` [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please Gigas Gaming Inc.
2015-06-19 18:34 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-06-19 19:55 ` John Bodeen
2015-06-19 20:01 ` Brian Hoffman
2015-06-19 20:27 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-06-20 23:16 ` [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Jorge Timón
2015-06-20 23:47 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 23:52 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 23:56 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 15:39 ` justusranvier [this message]
2015-06-19 15:39 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-20 20:04 ` odinn
2015-06-21 2:11 ` Dario Sneidermanis
2015-06-21 2:23 ` Dario Sneidermanis
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