From: Garlo Nicon <garlonicon@gmail•com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Future of Bitcoin Testnet
Date: Wed, 1 May 2024 08:30:41 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <47e4f1a0-709a-438b-a3ba-9e397c373ea9n@googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <3b1a26a9-acef-496a-8465-c32879d2a833n@googlegroups.com>
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> Doubling every 210,000 blocks.
This can potentially increase spam. Why? Because the minimal fee is one
satoshi per virtual byte. So, if you increase coin amounts, without
changing anything else, then you also increase the amount of bytes, which
you can push to the network. Because if you have 50 tBTC, then it means you
can push 5 GB of data, so if you suddenly would get 100 tBTC per block,
then it would increase your spamming ability to 10 GB, and then 20 GB, and
then 40 GB, and so on.
Also, going one bit to the left in every doubling means, that after a few
doublings, the values in 64-bit numbers will overflow, so that approach
will recreate the Value Overflow Incident. In general, the value of 50 tBTC
can be written as 0x12a05f200. That means, after 31 doublings, you will get
0x9502f90000000000, corresponding to 107,374,182,400 tBTC, and the next
value will overflow.
> impossible to try to ascribe value to that.
Even if some monetary system has some inflation, some value can always be
assigned. For example, a lot of fiat coins like dollars, can have unlimited
inflation. And they still have value, even if there is no max supply. There
is even a word for what happens in systems with hyperinflation, it is
called redenomination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redenomination
The same with many altcoins, which don't have any upper limit. Also note,
that in many altcoins, there is a trend of burning coins, to increase their
value. So, the same could happen in a new testnet: claiming less coins in
the coinbase transaction, is a perfectly valid no-fork, that would be
compatible, so even if you type in code "you can get 100 tBTC", then miners
could still claim only 50 tBTC or 25 tBTC, and their blocks will be valid.
Also, assuming no blockstorms, if you touch any rules, related to halvings,
then they don't have to hit us immediately. It is possible, that for the
next four years, everything will be fine, but after that, there will be a
lot of drama, related to what should be the correct value of the coinbase
transaction after that period. Note that even in the official signet, we
are still before the first halving.
Tuesday, 30 April 2024 at 21:00:32 UTC+2 Matthew Bagazinski wrote:
Unfortunately, the current form of Testnet is doomed to have value, just
like BTC. Its scarcity makes it a valuable asset. And no reset will change
that. It will only result in repeated resets, multiple versions of testnet,
and people never learning.
I have to agree with emsit here. Never underestimate the ability for people
to ascribe value to something with provable scarcity. I like Peter Todd's
suggestion of removing the halving completely, so that plenty new coins are
always coming into circulation, but it received pushback for removing the
regular 210,000-block events. Here are a few dumb ideas to chew on to see
if we can come up with something better:
- Doubling every 210,000 blocks. This leads to the supply growing
exponentially; impossible to try to ascribe value to that.
- Adding 1 to the subsidy every 210,000 blocks. Still an infinite
supply, closer to a standard subsidy, but there is still a change happening
every 210,000 blocks.
- Subtracting 1 every 210,000 blocks. This is technically still scarce,
but a much gentler decline in admissions. Yes, it eventually drops to 0,
but after 50 events instead of the current 33 halvings.
- Change "half" to some other fraction like "nine-tenths". Still
technically scarce, gentler decline in rewards, but still retains the
property of having a geometric sequence to the subsidies.
Like I said, dumb ideas, but I think there is a decision to be made between
avoiding a future reset by mitigating reasons people add value to tBTC
(such as scarcity) and expecting/planning for more regular resets when
people start inevitably valuing tBTC.
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2024-05-04 0:04 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 40+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2024-03-31 13:19 Jameson Lopp
2024-03-31 14:33 ` Luke Dashjr
2024-03-31 14:57 ` Jameson Lopp
2024-03-31 17:21 ` Eric Voskuil
2024-04-09 18:28 ` Garlo Nicon
2024-03-31 16:02 ` Peter Todd
2024-03-31 21:01 ` Nagaev Boris
2024-03-31 21:29 ` Peter Todd
2024-04-01 12:54 ` Jameson Lopp
2024-04-01 13:37 ` Pieter Wuille
2024-04-01 14:20 ` Andrew Poelstra
2024-04-01 22:01 ` 'Fabian' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2024-04-02 11:53 ` Jameson Lopp
2024-04-02 18:36 ` Lukáš Kráľ
2024-04-02 19:46 ` Jameson Lopp
2024-04-03 4:19 ` Anthony Towns
2024-04-03 18:18 ` emsit
2024-04-03 19:35 ` Andrew Poelstra
2024-04-30 18:46 ` Matthew Bagazinski
2024-05-01 15:30 ` Garlo Nicon [this message]
2024-05-04 17:13 ` Peter Todd
2024-04-10 6:57 ` Garlo Nicon
2024-04-22 4:33 ` Ali Sherief
2024-04-01 13:25 ` Andrew Poelstra
2024-04-01 13:32 ` 'Fabian' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2024-04-01 14:28 ` Warren Togami
2024-04-01 19:22 ` [bitcoindev] " emsit
2024-04-04 8:14 ` Calvin Kim
2024-04-04 12:47 ` Jameson Lopp
2024-04-05 4:30 ` Calvin Kim
2024-04-06 23:04 ` David A. Harding
2024-04-09 16:48 ` Peter Todd
2024-04-16 17:30 ` [bitcoindev] " 'Sjors Provoost' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2024-04-07 7:20 ` [bitcoindev] " Christian Decker
2024-04-07 8:09 ` K Calvin
2024-04-08 19:11 ` Garlo Nicon
2024-04-09 4:29 ` coinableS
2024-04-28 13:45 ` [bitcoindev] " Matt Corallo
2024-05-02 7:10 ` Ali Sherief
2024-05-04 17:08 ` Peter Todd
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