Re: [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a worried local trader

From: s7r <s7r@sky-ip•org>
To: "Raystonn ." <raystonn@hotmail•com>,
	Vali Zero <valizero@yahoo•ro>,
	bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a worried local trader
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 01:54:26 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <55B959A2.9020402@sky-ip.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <COL131-DS3F7339BCCA36BEFD1755ACD8C0@phx.gbl>

We could care less about you selling your bitcoins or moving to
something else.

What we care more is keeping bitcoin a successful project which offers
clear benefits to the world. I agree a fee market is good and needed,
and transactions shouldn't be free ever, but users should also be able
to transact fast and relatively cheap, as opposite to the competition,
or at least with the same costs, so people won't move to something else.

The more people use bitcoin, the more demand we have on the market for
BTC, the higher BTC/FIAT rate will be, more people will become
interested in mining and so on. Bitcoin is not a rich-only-private-club,
it's an open, global, decentralized payment network. The less people use
it... I guess you figured it out.

So we could care less that you will go away in case the fee market won't
become absurd or too expensive to use for most users. Having some
offchain solution for small transactions would be a good idea, but this
doesn't mean we should make small transactions impossible due to absurd
fees.

On 7/29/2015 8:47 PM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>> When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee
> market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
>  
> I believe that pretty well sums up where we’re headed if transaction
> rate is artificially limited, whether that be by maximum block size
> limit or something else.  A fee market will necessarily include more
> than just Bitcoin.  The reality is it’s very easy to trade value across
> different blockchains, and thus a fee market will bleed value from
> Bitcoin and give it to alternative blockchains.  If Bitcoin’s blocks are
> at maximum capacity, people will exchange for something that allows them
> to transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment.  This adds
> value to the alternative blockchain and removes it from Bitcoin.
>  
> Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone is
> mistaken.
> 
>  
> *From:* Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:09 AM
> *To:* bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
> *Subject:* [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market
> from a worried local trader
>  
> I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let me
> rephrase it for you,
>  
> People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin
> transactions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees
> that establish the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin
> transactions. The people are free to use they money for whatever they
> like, but you should understand that Bitcoin transactions are not free.
>  
> I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would be
> the first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam or gamble,
> but they would have to pay for it.
>  
> When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee market,
> they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
>  
> Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more important
> players will remain, those that need it the most. The other players are
> free to use whatever altcoin they wish.
>  
>  
> În Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail•com> a
> scris:
> 
> 
> "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. The
> people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."
> 
> so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don't
> need Bitcoin.
> Who are you to say what people need to use money for?
> This statement goes against the freedom of decentralization and
> financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to provide.
> 
> It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit, and that
> requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's simple
> physics, other time wait times will become unbearable for those not
> willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean
> bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless.
> 
> 
>  
> http://twitter.com/gubatron
>  
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Hello,
> 
>     I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees would
>     scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferring bank
>     transfers or other payment methods. This does not make sense for me.
>     If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down
>     and so do the fees. The others remain.
> 
>     Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand for
>     bitcoin transactions and the available supply (given by the block
>     size). The fee is the price that finds this equilibrium.
> 
>     If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the
>     spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people
>     transacting very low amounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin
>     would remain.
> 
>     Please allow this fee market to form...
> 
>     In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run
>     Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my best to
>     tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code. If
>     Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the coins
>     and leave. Nothing is for free.
> 
>     I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards
>     expressing my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader,
>     computer engineer, with a reasonable understanding of free markets.
>     And I'm running only one full node.
> 
>     Kind regards,
>     Valentin
> 
> 
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