Re: [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a worried local trader

From: odinn <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup•net>
To: s7r@sky-ip•org, "Raystonn ." <raystonn@hotmail•com>,
	 Vali Zero <valizero@yahoo•ro>,
	bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a worried local trader
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 02:52:05 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <55B9F3C5.7060302@riseup.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <55B959A2.9020402@sky-ip.org>

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Some additional points....

On 07/29/2015 03:54 PM, s7r via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> (...)
> 
> The more people use bitcoin, the more demand we have on the market
> for BTC, the higher BTC/FIAT rate will be, more people will become 
> interested in mining and so on. Bitcoin is not a
> rich-only-private-club, it's an open, global, decentralized payment
> network. The less people use it... I guess you figured it out.

Yes.

(...) Having some
> offchain solution for small transactions would be a good idea, but
> this doesn't mean we should make small transactions impossible due
> to absurd fees.

This is correct also.

> 
> On 7/29/2015 8:47 PM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>> When a category of users would get priced out because of the
>>> fee
>> market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
>> 
>> I believe that pretty well sums up where we’re headed if
>> transaction rate is artificially limited, whether that be by
>> maximum block size limit or something else.  A fee market will
>> necessarily include more than just Bitcoin.  The reality is it’s
>> very easy to trade value across different blockchains, and thus a
>> fee market will bleed value from Bitcoin and give it to
>> alternative blockchains.  If Bitcoin’s blocks are at maximum
>> capacity, people will exchange for something that allows them to
>> transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment.  This
>> adds value to the alternative blockchain and removes it from
>> Bitcoin.
>> 
>> Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone
>> is mistaken.
>> 
>> 
>> *From:* Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev 
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> *Sent:* Wednesday,
>> July 29, 2015 7:09 AM *To:*
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org 
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> *Subject:*
>> [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a
>> worried local trader
>> 
>> I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view.
>> Let me rephrase it for you,
>> 
>> People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need
>> Bitcoin transactions *more* than the rest of the people will
>> afford the fees that establish the equilibrium between demand and
>> supply of Bitcoin transactions. The people are free to use they
>> money for whatever they like, but you should understand that
>> Bitcoin transactions are not free.
>> 
>> I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers
>> would be the first ones that would go away. They would be free to
>> spam or gamble, but they would have to pay for it.
>> 
>> When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee
>> market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
>> 
>> Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more
>> important players will remain, those that need it the most. The
>> other players are free to use whatever altcoin they wish.
>> 
>> 
>> În Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon
>> <gubatron@gmail•com> a scris:
>> 
>> 
>> "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts.
>> The people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."
>> 
>> so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually
>> don't need Bitcoin. Who are you to say what people need to use
>> money for? This statement goes against the freedom of
>> decentralization and financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to
>> provide.
>> 
>> It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit,
>> and that requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not,
>> it's simple physics, other time wait times will become unbearable
>> for those not willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then
>> it only mean bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful,
>> it's worthless.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://twitter.com/gubatron
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev 
>> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org 
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees
>> would scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it,
>> preferring bank transfers or other payment methods. This does not
>> make sense for me. If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin
>> transactions goes down and so do the fees. The others remain.
>> 
>> Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand
>> for bitcoin transactions and the available supply (given by the
>> block size). The fee is the price that finds this equilibrium.
>> 
>> If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the 
>> spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people 
>> transacting very low amounts. The people that actually need
>> Bitcoin would remain.
>> 
>> Please allow this fee market to form...
>> 
>> In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run 
>> Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my best
>> to tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code.
>> If Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the
>> coins and leave. Nothing is for free.
>> 
>> I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly
>> towards expressing my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin
>> trader, computer engineer, with a reasonable understanding of
>> free markets. And I'm running only one full node.
>> 
>> Kind regards, Valentin
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev
>> mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org 
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> 
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> 
>> 
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> list bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org 
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