Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and the block-finding process

From: odinn <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup•net>
To: Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail•com>,  Thomas Zander <thomas@thomaszander•se>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and the block-finding process
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:32:20 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <55CA9414.70202@riseup.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CADZB0_a93oDAEro-6h6UZprVyvRUTaB_tzggU8WUWKGJjbLeRw@mail.gmail.com>

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Hey Angel,

On 08/11/2015 02:14 AM, Angel Leon via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> -policy neutrality. - It can't be censored. - it can't be shut
> down - and the rules cannot change from underneath you.
> 
> except it can be shutdown the minute it actually gets used by its 
> inability to scale.
> 
> what's the point of having all this if nobody can use it? what's
> the point of going through all that energy and CO2 for a mere 
> 24,000 transactions an hour?
> 
> It's clear that it's just a matter of time before it collapses.
> 
> Here's a simple proposal (concept) that doesn't pretend to set a
> fixed block size limit as you can't ever know the demands the
> future will bring
> https://gist.github.com/gubatron/143e431ee01158f27db4

This seems to be a really good idea... May I add in here something
that's been dismissed before but I will mention it again anyway...

http://is.gd/DiFuRr "dynamic block size adjustment"
My sense has been that something like this could be coupled with
Garzik's BIP 100.  For some reason I keep getting attacked for saying
this.

/RantOff

> 
> We don't need to go as far as countries with hyper inflation trying
> to use the technology to make it collapse, anybody here who has
> distributed commercial/free end user software knows that any small
> company out there installs more copies in a couple weeks than all
> the bitcoin users we have at the moment, all we need is a single
> company/project with a decent amount of users who are now enabled
> to transact directly on the blockchain to screw it all up (perhaps
> OpenBazaar this winter could make this whole thing come down,
> hopefully they'll take this debate and the current limitations
> before their release, and boy are they coding nonstop on it now
> that they got funded), the last of your fears should be a malicious
> government trying to shut you down, for that to happen you must
> make an impact first, for now this is a silly game in the grand 
> scheme of things.
> 
> And you did sound pretty bad, all of his points were very valid and
> they share the concern of many people, many investors,
> entrepreneurs putting shitload of money, time and their lives on a
> much larger vision than that of a network that does a mere 3,500
> tx/hour, but some people seem to be able to live in impossible or
> useless ideals.
> 
> It's simply irresponsible to not want to give the network a chance
> to grow a bit more. Miners centralizing is inevitable given the POW
> based consensus, hobbists-mining is only there for countries with
> very cheap energy.
> 
> If things remain this way, this whole thing will be a massive
> failure and it will probably take another decade before we can open
> our mouths about cryptocurrencies, decentralization and what not,
> and this stubornness will be the one policy that censored everyone,
> that shutdown everyone, that made the immutable rules not matter.
> 
> Perhaps it will be Stellar what ends up delivering at this stubborn
> pace.
> 
> http://twitter.com/gubatron
> 
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 4:38 AM, Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev 
> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org 
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
> 
>> It follows then, that if we make a decision now which destroys
>> that property, which makes it possible to censor bitcoin, to deny
>> service, or to pressure miners into changing rules contrary to
>> user interests, then Bitcoin is no longer interesting.
> 
> You asked to be convinced of the need for bigger blocks. I gave
> that. What makes you think bitcoin will break when more people use
> it?
> 
> Sent on the go, excuse the brevity. *From: *Mark Friedenbach *Sent:
> *Tuesday, 11 August 2015 08:10 *To: *Thomas Zander *Cc: *Bitcoin
> Dev *Subject: *Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and the block-finding
> process
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 11:31 PM, Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev 
> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org 
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
> 
> On Monday 10. August 2015 23.03.39 <tel:2015%2023.03.39> Mark 
> Friedenbach wrote:
>> This is where things diverge. It's fine to pick a new limit or
>> growth trajectory. But defend it with data and reasoned
>> analysis.
> 
> We currently serve about 0,007% of the world population sending 
> maybe one transaction a month. This can only go up.
> 
> There are about 20 currencies in the world that are unstable and 
> showing early signs of hyperinflation. If even small percentage of
> these people cash-out and get Bitcoins for their savings you'd have
> the amount of people using Bitcoin as savings go from maybe half a
> million to 10 million in the space of a couple of months. Why so
> fast? Because all the world currencies are linked. Practically all
> currencies follow the USD, and while that one may stay robust and
> standing, the linkage has been shown in the past to cause 
> chain-effects.
> 
> It is impossible to predict how much uptake Bitcoin will take, but
> we have seen big rises in price as Cyprus had a bailin and then
> when Greece first showed bad signs again. Lets do our due diligence
> and agree that in the current world economy there are sure signs
> that people are considering Bitcoin on a big scale.
> 
> Bigger amount of people holding Bitcoin savings won't make the 
> transaction rate go up very much, but if you have feet on the
> ground you already see that people go back to barter in countries
> like Poland, Ireland, Greece etc. And Bitcoin will be an
> alternative to good to ignore.  Then transaction rates will go up.
> Dramatically.
> 
> If you are asking for numbers, that is a bit tricky. Again; we are
> at 0,007%... Thats like a f-ing rounding error in the world 
> economy. You can't reason from that. Its like using a float to do
> calculations that you should have done in a double and getting
> weird output.
> 
> Bottom line is that a maximum size of 8Mb blocks is not that odd.
> Because a 20 times increase is very common in a "company" that is
> about 6 years old. For instance Android was about that age when it
> started to get shipped by non- Google companies. There the increase
> was substantially bigger and the company backing it was definitely
> able to change direction faster than the Bitcoin oiltanker can
> change direction.
> 
> ...
> 
> Another metric to remember; if you follow hackernews (well, the 
> incubator more than the linked articles) you'd be exposed to the
> thinking of these startups. Their only criteria is growth. and this
> is rather substantial growth. Like 150% per month.  Naturally, most
> of these build on top of html or other existing technologies.  But
> the point is that exponential growth is expected in any startup.
> They typically have a much much more agressive timeline, though.
> Every month instead of every year. Having exponential growth in the
> blockchain is really not odd and even if we have LN or sidechains
> or the next changetip, this space will be used. And we will still
> have scarcity.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I really don't want to sound like a jerk, but not a 
> single word of that mattered. Yes we all want Bitcoin to scale
> such that every person in the world can use it without difficulty. 
> However if that were all that we cared about then I would be
> remiss if I did not point out that there are plenty of better,
> faster, and cheaper solutions to finding global consensus over a
> payment ledger than Bitcoin. Architectures which are
> algorithmically superior in their scaling properties. Indeed they
> are already implemented and you can use them today:
> 
> https://www.stellar.org/ http://opentransactions.org/
> 
> So why do I work on Bitcoin, and why do I care about the outcome
> of this debate? Because Bitcoin offers one thing, and one thing
> only which alternative architectures fundamentally lack: policy 
> neutrality. It can't be censored, it can't be shut down, and the 
> rules cannot change from underneath you. *That* is what Bitcoin 
> offers that can't be replicated at higher scale with a SQL
> database and an audit log.
> 
> It follows then, that if we make a decision now which destroys
> that property, which makes it possible to censor bitcoin, to deny 
> service, or to pressure miners into changing rules contrary to
> user interests, then Bitcoin is no longer interesting. We might as
> well get rid of mining at that point and make Bitcoin look like
> Stellar or Open-Transactions because at least then we'd scale even
> better and not be pumping millions of tons of CO2 into the
> atmosphere from running all those ASICs.
> 
> On the other side, 3Tb harddrives are sold, which take 8Mb blocks
> without problems.
> 
> 
> Straw man, storage is not an issue.
> 
> 
> You can buy broadband in every relevant country that easily 
> supports the bandwidth we need. (remember we won't jump to 8Mb in a
> day, it will likely take at least 6 months).
> 
> 
> Neither one of those assertions is clear. Keep in mind the goal is 
> to have Bitcoin survive active censorship. Presumably that means 
> being able to run a node even in the face of a hostile ISP or 
> government. Furthermore, it means being location independent and 
> being able to move around. In many places the higher the bandwidth 
> requirements the fewer the number of ISPs that are available to 
> service you, and the more visible you are.
> 
> It may also be necessary to be able to run over Tor. And not just 
> today's Tor which is developed, serviced, and supported by the US 
> government, but a Tor or I2P that future governments have turned 
> hostile towards and actively censor or repress. Or existing 
> authoritative governments, for that matter. How much bandwidth
> would be available through those connections?
> 
> It may hopefully never be necessary to operate under such 
> constraints, except by freedom seeking individuals within existing 
> totalitarian regimes. However the credible threat of doing so may
> be what keeps Bitcoin from being repressed in the first place. Lose
> the capability to go underground, and it will be pressured into 
> regulation, eventually.
> 
> To the second point, it has been previously pointed out that large 
> miners stand to gain from larger blocks, for the same basic 
> underlying reasons as selfish mining. The incentive is to increase 
> blocks, and miners are able to do so at will and without cost. I 
> would not be so certain that we wouldn't see large blocks sooner 
> than that.
> 
> 
> We should get the inverted bloom filters stuff (or competing 
> products) working at least on a one-to-one basis so we can solve
> the propagation time problem. There frankly is a huge amount of
> optimization that can be done in that area, we don't even use
> locality (pingtime) to optimize distribution.
>> From my experience you can expect a 2-magnitude speedup in that
> same 6 month period by focusing some research there.
> 
> 
> This is basically already deployed thanks to Matt's relay network. 
> Further improvements are not going to have dramatic effects.
> 
> 
> Remember 8Gb/block still doesn't support VISA/Mastercard.
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't. And 8GB/block is ludicrously large -- it would 
> absolutely, without any doubt destroy the very nature of Bitcoin, 
> turning it into a fundamentally uninteresting reincarnation of the 
> existing financial system. And still be unable to compete with 
> VISA/Mastercard.
> 
> So why then the pressure to go down a route that WILL lead to 
> failure by your own metrics?
> 
> I humbly suggest that maybe we should play the strengths of
> Bitcoin instead -- it's trustlessness via policy neutrality.
> 
> Either that, or go work on Stellar. Because that's where it's
> headed otherwise.
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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- -- 
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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