Re: [bitcoin-dev] Incentives to run full nodes

From: odinn <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup•net>
To: Chris Pacia <ctpacia@gmail•com>, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org>,
	 justusranvier@riseup•net, gmaxwell@gmail•com,
	gmaxwell@gmail•com
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Incentives to run full nodes
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2015 06:59:27 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <5610CE4F.1000800@riseup.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <5610CB2F.90002@riseup.net>

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(Note:  Due to being very tired I have issued a correction to my post
below so as to make sure I have not been misunderstood.)

odinn via bitcoin-dev:
> Hello,
> 
> Some background on this....
> 
> 
> A very long while ago I posted to the bitcoin-development mailing
> list some ABIS concepts having to do with microdonations:
> 
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2013-December/
00
>
> 
3791.html
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-January/0
04
>
> 
049.html
> 
> And an interesting post (which led me to explore BCN) via nullc: 
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7765455 (posted 1 & 1/3 year
> ago).

(I realize the way I wrote the above paragraph made it sound like I
posted the above post at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7765455
but I just want to point out here that I did not; I meant to say that
I read an interesting post which led me to explore BCN that was
published by nullc.)

> 
> 
> Anyway, some long while ago this discussion came up about
> "Incentives to run full nodes," and the last post in the thread was
> here:
> 
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-June/0060
83
>
> 
.html
> 
> Since that time, some new developments have come to light which
> the participants in that thread may find interesting;
> 
> Please see in part,
> 
> https://bytecoin.org/news/bytecoin-wallet-1.0.8-release-introduces-mic
ro
>
> 
- -donations/
> 
> This presents a working implementation in BCN; the concept as 
> implemented there is arguably viable in BTC as well.
> 
> Please explore, play with, discuss, etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> - O
> 
> odinn:
>> Potentially relevant...
> 
>> "Incentivizing the running of full nodes"
> 
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-June/006
0
>
>> 
28
> 
> 
> .html
> 
>> (However, the issue to which I referred here is now closed)
> 
>> View whole thread:
> 
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-June/thr
e
>
>> 
ad
> 
> 
> .html#6028
> 
>> On 08/17/2015 02:44 PM, Chris Pacia via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> 
>>> On Aug 17, 2015 5:29 PM, "Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev" 
>>> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org 
>>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>> wrote: From the
>>>  point of view of a
>>>> wallet, it's not very secure to use Hearn-style SPV mode, and
>>>>  volunteers running full nodes doesn't help things. Sybil 
>>>> attacking the IP address space is pretty easy in comparison
>>>> to aquiring hashing power sufficient to create false 
>>>> confirmations, so any attacker able to do the former will 
>>>> likely be running the full node you're connecting too
>>>> anyway. Ultimately, Hearn-style SPV is a close approximation
>>>> to just trusting anyone with a non-trivial amount of hashing
>>>> power. (and getting that is surprisingly easy, e.g. w/ SPV
>>>> mining)
> 
>>> Can you explain how the spv node fails against an attacker with
>>> a non-trivial amount of hash power where a full node doesn't?
>>> To attack an spv wallet that is waiting for 6 or 10
>>> confirmations, you would not only need to Sybil them but also
>>> summon a massive amount of hashing power to create a chain of
>>> headers (while forgoing the opportunity to mine valid blocks
>>> with that hash power).
> 
>>> But could someone with that much hash power not Sybil a full 
>>> node and give them a chain for valid blocks (but on an orphan 
>>> fork)? The failure model doesn't seem specific to spv to me.
> 
> 
> 
>>> _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev 
>>> mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org 
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing
> list bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org 
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> 

- -- 
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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