* [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
@ 2015-06-19 10:39 Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Gavin Andresen
` (5 more replies)
0 siblings, 6 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 10:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 11711 bytes --]
Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions with
me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if a
conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements for
the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
previous transaction.
I'm a user. What does this mean for me?
---------------------------------------
In the short term, very little. Wallet software aimed at average users
has no ability to reliably detect conditions where an unconfirmed
transaction may be double-spent by the sender. For example, Schildbach's
Bitcoin Wallet for Android doesn't even detect double-spends of
unconfirmed transactions when connected to a RBF or Bitcoin XT nodes
that propagate them. The least sophisticated double-spend attack
possibly - simply broadcasting two conflicting transactions at the same
time - has about 50% probability of success against these wallets.
Additionally, SPV wallets based on bitcoinj can't even detect invalid
transactions reliably, instead trusting the full node(s) it is connected
too over the unauthenticated, unencrypted, P2P protocol to do validation
for them. For instance due to a unfixed bug¹ Bitcoin XT nodes will relay
double-spends that spend the output of the conflicting transaction. I've
personally tested this with Schildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android,
which shows such invalid transactions as standard, unconfirmed,
transactions.
Users should continue to assume that unconfirmed transactions could be
trivially reversed by the sender until the first confirmation. In
general, only the sender can reverse a transaction, so if you do trust
the sender feel free to assume an unconfirmed transaction will
eventually confirm. However, if you do not trust the sender and/or have
no other recourse if they double-spend you, wait until at least the
first confirmation before assuming the transaction will go through.
In the long term, miner support of full RBF has a number of advantages
to users, allowing you to more efficiently make transactions, paying
lower fees. However you'll need a wallet supporting these features; none
exist yet.
I'm a business. What does this mean for me?
-------------------------------------------
If you use your own node to verify transactions, you probably are in a
similar situation as average users, so again, this means very little to
you.
If you use a payment processor/transaction API such as BitPay, Coinbase,
BlockCypher, etc. you may or may not be accepting unconfirmed
transactions, and they may or may not be "guaranteed" by your payment
processor even if double-spent. If like most merchants you're using the
API such that confirmations are required prior to accepting orders (e.g.
taking a meaningful loss such as shipping a product if the tx is
reversed) nothing changes for you. If not I recommend you contact your
payment processor.
I'm a miner. Why should I support replace-by-fee?
-------------------------------------------------
Whether full or first-seen-safe⁵ RBF support (along with
child-pays-for-parent) is an important step towards a fully functioning
transaction fee market that doesn't lead to users' transactions getting
mysteriously "stuck", particularly during network flooding
events/attacks. A better functioning fee market will help reduce
pressure to increase the blocksize, particularly from the users creating
the most valuable transactions.
Full RBF also helps make use of the limited blockchain space more
efficiently, with up to 90%+ transaction size savings possible in some
transaction patterns. (e.g. long payment chains⁶) More users in less
blockchain space will lead to higher overall fees per block.
Finally as we'll discuss below full RBF prevents a number of serious
threats to the existing level playing field that miners operate in.
Why can't we make accepting unconfirmed txs from untrusted people safe?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For a decentralized wallet, the situation is pretty bleak. These wallets
only have a handful of connections to the network, with no way of
knowing if those connections give an accurate view of what transactions
miners actually know about.
The only serious attempt to fix this problem for decentralized wallets
that has been actually deployed is Andresen/Harding's double-spend
relaying, implemented in Bitcoin XT. It relays up to one double-spend
transaction per double-spent txout, with the intended effect to warn
recipients. In practice however this functionality makes it easier to
double-spend rather than harder, by giving an efficient and easy way to
get double-spends to miners after the fact. Notably my RBF
implementation even connects to Bitcoin XT nodes, reserving a % of all
incoming and outgoing connection slots for them.
Additionally Bitcoin XT's double-spend relaying is subject to attacks
include bandwidth exhaustion, sybil attacks, and Gervais's non-sybil
interactive attacks⁷ among many others.
What about centralised wallets?
-------------------------------
Here the solutions being deployed, planned, and proposed are harmful,
and even represent serious threats to Bitcoin's decentralization.
Confidence factors
------------------
Many services such as BlockCypher² have attempted to predict the
probability that unconfirmed transactions will be mined, often
guaranteeing merchants payment³ even in the event of a double-spend. The
key component of these predictions is to sybil attack the P2P network as
a whole, connecting to as many nodes as possible to measure transaction
propagation. Additionally these services connect to pools directly via
the getblocktemplate protocol, repeatedly downloading via GBT the lists
of transactions in the to-be-mined blocks to determine what transactions
miners are attempting to mine.
None of these measures scale, wasting significant network and miner
resources; in one instance a sybil attack by Chainalysis even completely
blocked the users of the SPV wallet Breadwallet⁴ from accessing the
network. These measures also don't work very well, giving double-spend
attackers incentives to sybil attack miners themselves.
Transaction processing contracts with miners
--------------------------------------------
The next step after measuring propagation fails is to contract with
miners directly, signing contracts with as much of the hashing power as
possible to get the transactions they want mined and double-spends
rejected. The miners/pools would then provide an authenticated API
endpoint for exclusive use of this service that would allow the service
to add and remove specific transactions to the mempool on demand.
There's a number of serious problems with this:
1) Mining contracts can be used to double-spend
...even when they're being used "honestly".
Suppose Alice is a merchant using CoinPayCypher, who has contracts with
75% of the hashing power. Bob, another merchant, meanwhile uses a
decentralized Bitcoin Core backend for payments to his website.
Mallory wants to double-spend Bob's to buy his expensive products. He
can do this by creating a transaction, tx1, that pays Alice, followed by
a second transaction, tx2, that pays Bob. In any circumstance when
Mallory can convince Bob to accept tx2, but prevent Bob from seeing tx1,
the chance of Malory's double-spend succeeding becomes ~75% because
CoinPayCypher's contracts with mining ensure the transaction paying
Alice will get mined.
Of course, dishonest use and/or compromise makes double-spending
trivial: Malory can use the API credentials to ask miners to reject
Bob's payment at any time.
2) They still don't work, without 51% attacking other miners
Even if CoinPayCypher has 75% of the hashing power on contract, that's
still a potentially 75% chance of being double-spent. The 25% of miners
who haven't signed contracts have no _decentralized_ way of ensuring
they don't create blocks with double-spends, let alone at low cost. If
those miners won't or can't sign contracts with CoinPayCypher the only
next step available is to reject their blocks entirely.
3) Legal contracts give the advantage to non-anonymous miners in
Western jurisdictions
Suppose CoinPayCypher is a US company, and you're a miner with 1%
hashing power located in northern China. The barriers to you succesfully
negotiating a contract with CoinPayCypher are significant. You don't
speak the same langauge, you're in a completely different jurisdiction
so enforcing the legal contract is difficult, and being just 1%,
CoinPayCypher sees you as insignificant.
Who's going to get the profitable hashing power contracts first, if at
all? Your English speaking competitors in the west. This is inherently a
pressure towards centralization of mining.
Why isn't this being announced on the bitcoin-security list first?
------------------------------------------------------------------
I've had repeated discussions with services vulnerable to double-spends;
they have been made well aware of the risk they're taking. If they've
followed my own and others' advice they'll at minimum have constant
monitoring of the rate of double-spends both on their own services and
on the P2P network in general.
If you choose to take a risk you should accept the consequences.
How do I actually use full RBF?
-------------------------------
First get the full-RBF patch to v0.10.2:
https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.10.2
The above implementation of RBF includes additional code to find and
preferentially connect to other RBF nodes, as well as Bitcoin XT nodes.
Secondly, try out my replace-by-fee-tools at:
https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools
You can watch double-spends on the network here:
http://respends.thinlink.com/
References
----------
1) "Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel
variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin Wallet",
Peter Todd, May 23rd 2015, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07795.html
2) "From Zero to Hero: Bitcoin Transactions in 8 Seconds",
June 2nd, 2014, Erik Voorhees,
https://medium.com/blockcypher-blog/from-zero-to-hero-bitcoin-transactions-in-8-seconds-7c9edcb3b734
3) Coinbase Merchant API, Accessed Jun 19th 2015,
https://developers.coinbase.com/docs/merchants/callbacks#confirmations
4) "Chainalysis CEO Denies 'Sybil Attack' on Bitcoin's Network",
March 14th 2015, Grace Caffyn, Coindesk,
http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-on-bitcoin-network/
5) "First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee",
May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
6) "Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%",
May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
7) "Tampering with the Delivery of Blocks and Transactions in Bitcoin",
Arthur Gervais and Hubert Ritzdorf and Ghassan O. Karame and Srdjan Capkun,
Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/578, Jun 10th 2015,
http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
0000000000000000070a2bb3b92c20d5c2c971e6e1a7abe55cdbbe6a2dd9a5ad
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 10:39 [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 13:33 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Stephen Morse
` (4 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Gavin Andresen @ 2015-06-19 13:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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I just sent the following email to F2Pool:
I was disappointed to see Peter Todd claiming that you have (or will?) run
his replace-by-fee patch.
I strongly encourage you to wait until most wallet software supports
replace-by-fee before doing that, because until that happens replace-by-fee
just makes it easier to steal from bitcoin-accepting merchants.
I will tell you the same thing about 8MB blocks: until most merchants
support bigger blocks I will strongly encourage you keep creating
less-than-1MB blocks. If we want Bitcoin to succeed more quickly, we should
all be thinking about what is good for the whole system: users, merchants,
exchanges and miners.
As always, if you have questions or concerns feel free to email me.
--
--
Gavin Andresen
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 10:39 [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Gavin Andresen
@ 2015-06-19 13:33 ` Stephen Morse
2015-06-19 13:37 ` Chun Wang
` (2 more replies)
2015-06-19 15:00 ` justusranvier
` (3 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 3 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Morse @ 2015-06-19 13:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 12818 bytes --]
It is disappointing that F2Pool would enable full RBF when the safe
alternative, first-seen-safe RBF, is also available, especially since the
fees they would gain by supporting full RBF over FSS RBF would likely be
negligible. Did they consider using FSS RBF instead?
Best,
Stephen
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:39 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
> power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions with
> me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if a
> conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements for
> the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
> previous transaction.
>
>
> I'm a user. What does this mean for me?
> ---------------------------------------
>
> In the short term, very little. Wallet software aimed at average users
> has no ability to reliably detect conditions where an unconfirmed
> transaction may be double-spent by the sender. For example, Schildbach's
> Bitcoin Wallet for Android doesn't even detect double-spends of
> unconfirmed transactions when connected to a RBF or Bitcoin XT nodes
> that propagate them. The least sophisticated double-spend attack
> possibly - simply broadcasting two conflicting transactions at the same
> time - has about 50% probability of success against these wallets.
>
> Additionally, SPV wallets based on bitcoinj can't even detect invalid
> transactions reliably, instead trusting the full node(s) it is connected
> too over the unauthenticated, unencrypted, P2P protocol to do validation
> for them. For instance due to a unfixed bug¹ Bitcoin XT nodes will relay
> double-spends that spend the output of the conflicting transaction. I've
> personally tested this with Schildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android,
> which shows such invalid transactions as standard, unconfirmed,
> transactions.
>
> Users should continue to assume that unconfirmed transactions could be
> trivially reversed by the sender until the first confirmation. In
> general, only the sender can reverse a transaction, so if you do trust
> the sender feel free to assume an unconfirmed transaction will
> eventually confirm. However, if you do not trust the sender and/or have
> no other recourse if they double-spend you, wait until at least the
> first confirmation before assuming the transaction will go through.
>
> In the long term, miner support of full RBF has a number of advantages
> to users, allowing you to more efficiently make transactions, paying
> lower fees. However you'll need a wallet supporting these features; none
> exist yet.
>
>
> I'm a business. What does this mean for me?
> -------------------------------------------
>
> If you use your own node to verify transactions, you probably are in a
> similar situation as average users, so again, this means very little to
> you.
>
> If you use a payment processor/transaction API such as BitPay, Coinbase,
> BlockCypher, etc. you may or may not be accepting unconfirmed
> transactions, and they may or may not be "guaranteed" by your payment
> processor even if double-spent. If like most merchants you're using the
> API such that confirmations are required prior to accepting orders (e.g.
> taking a meaningful loss such as shipping a product if the tx is
> reversed) nothing changes for you. If not I recommend you contact your
> payment processor.
>
>
> I'm a miner. Why should I support replace-by-fee?
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Whether full or first-seen-safe⁵ RBF support (along with
> child-pays-for-parent) is an important step towards a fully functioning
> transaction fee market that doesn't lead to users' transactions getting
> mysteriously "stuck", particularly during network flooding
> events/attacks. A better functioning fee market will help reduce
> pressure to increase the blocksize, particularly from the users creating
> the most valuable transactions.
>
> Full RBF also helps make use of the limited blockchain space more
> efficiently, with up to 90%+ transaction size savings possible in some
> transaction patterns. (e.g. long payment chains⁶) More users in less
> blockchain space will lead to higher overall fees per block.
>
> Finally as we'll discuss below full RBF prevents a number of serious
> threats to the existing level playing field that miners operate in.
>
>
> Why can't we make accepting unconfirmed txs from untrusted people safe?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> For a decentralized wallet, the situation is pretty bleak. These wallets
> only have a handful of connections to the network, with no way of
> knowing if those connections give an accurate view of what transactions
> miners actually know about.
>
> The only serious attempt to fix this problem for decentralized wallets
> that has been actually deployed is Andresen/Harding's double-spend
> relaying, implemented in Bitcoin XT. It relays up to one double-spend
> transaction per double-spent txout, with the intended effect to warn
> recipients. In practice however this functionality makes it easier to
> double-spend rather than harder, by giving an efficient and easy way to
> get double-spends to miners after the fact. Notably my RBF
> implementation even connects to Bitcoin XT nodes, reserving a % of all
> incoming and outgoing connection slots for them.
>
> Additionally Bitcoin XT's double-spend relaying is subject to attacks
> include bandwidth exhaustion, sybil attacks, and Gervais's non-sybil
> interactive attacks⁷ among many others.
>
>
> What about centralised wallets?
> -------------------------------
>
> Here the solutions being deployed, planned, and proposed are harmful,
> and even represent serious threats to Bitcoin's decentralization.
>
>
> Confidence factors
> ------------------
>
> Many services such as BlockCypher² have attempted to predict the
> probability that unconfirmed transactions will be mined, often
> guaranteeing merchants payment³ even in the event of a double-spend. The
> key component of these predictions is to sybil attack the P2P network as
> a whole, connecting to as many nodes as possible to measure transaction
> propagation. Additionally these services connect to pools directly via
> the getblocktemplate protocol, repeatedly downloading via GBT the lists
> of transactions in the to-be-mined blocks to determine what transactions
> miners are attempting to mine.
>
> None of these measures scale, wasting significant network and miner
> resources; in one instance a sybil attack by Chainalysis even completely
> blocked the users of the SPV wallet Breadwallet⁴ from accessing the
> network. These measures also don't work very well, giving double-spend
> attackers incentives to sybil attack miners themselves.
>
>
> Transaction processing contracts with miners
> --------------------------------------------
>
> The next step after measuring propagation fails is to contract with
> miners directly, signing contracts with as much of the hashing power as
> possible to get the transactions they want mined and double-spends
> rejected. The miners/pools would then provide an authenticated API
> endpoint for exclusive use of this service that would allow the service
> to add and remove specific transactions to the mempool on demand.
>
> There's a number of serious problems with this:
>
> 1) Mining contracts can be used to double-spend
>
> ...even when they're being used "honestly".
>
> Suppose Alice is a merchant using CoinPayCypher, who has contracts with
> 75% of the hashing power. Bob, another merchant, meanwhile uses a
> decentralized Bitcoin Core backend for payments to his website.
>
> Mallory wants to double-spend Bob's to buy his expensive products. He
> can do this by creating a transaction, tx1, that pays Alice, followed by
> a second transaction, tx2, that pays Bob. In any circumstance when
> Mallory can convince Bob to accept tx2, but prevent Bob from seeing tx1,
> the chance of Malory's double-spend succeeding becomes ~75% because
> CoinPayCypher's contracts with mining ensure the transaction paying
> Alice will get mined.
>
> Of course, dishonest use and/or compromise makes double-spending
> trivial: Malory can use the API credentials to ask miners to reject
> Bob's payment at any time.
>
>
> 2) They still don't work, without 51% attacking other miners
>
> Even if CoinPayCypher has 75% of the hashing power on contract, that's
> still a potentially 75% chance of being double-spent. The 25% of miners
> who haven't signed contracts have no _decentralized_ way of ensuring
> they don't create blocks with double-spends, let alone at low cost. If
> those miners won't or can't sign contracts with CoinPayCypher the only
> next step available is to reject their blocks entirely.
>
>
> 3) Legal contracts give the advantage to non-anonymous miners in
> Western jurisdictions
>
> Suppose CoinPayCypher is a US company, and you're a miner with 1%
> hashing power located in northern China. The barriers to you succesfully
> negotiating a contract with CoinPayCypher are significant. You don't
> speak the same langauge, you're in a completely different jurisdiction
> so enforcing the legal contract is difficult, and being just 1%,
> CoinPayCypher sees you as insignificant.
>
> Who's going to get the profitable hashing power contracts first, if at
> all? Your English speaking competitors in the west. This is inherently a
> pressure towards centralization of mining.
>
>
> Why isn't this being announced on the bitcoin-security list first?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've had repeated discussions with services vulnerable to double-spends;
> they have been made well aware of the risk they're taking. If they've
> followed my own and others' advice they'll at minimum have constant
> monitoring of the rate of double-spends both on their own services and
> on the P2P network in general.
>
> If you choose to take a risk you should accept the consequences.
>
>
> How do I actually use full RBF?
> -------------------------------
>
> First get the full-RBF patch to v0.10.2:
>
> https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.10.2
>
> The above implementation of RBF includes additional code to find and
> preferentially connect to other RBF nodes, as well as Bitcoin XT nodes.
> Secondly, try out my replace-by-fee-tools at:
>
> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools
>
> You can watch double-spends on the network here:
>
> http://respends.thinlink.com/
>
>
> References
> ----------
>
> 1) "Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel
> variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin Wallet",
> Peter Todd, May 23rd 2015, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07795.html
>
> 2) "From Zero to Hero: Bitcoin Transactions in 8 Seconds",
> June 2nd, 2014, Erik Voorhees,
>
> https://medium.com/blockcypher-blog/from-zero-to-hero-bitcoin-transactions-in-8-seconds-7c9edcb3b734
>
> 3) Coinbase Merchant API, Accessed Jun 19th 2015,
> https://developers.coinbase.com/docs/merchants/callbacks#confirmations
>
> 4) "Chainalysis CEO Denies 'Sybil Attack' on Bitcoin's Network",
> March 14th 2015, Grace Caffyn, Coindesk,
>
> http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-on-bitcoin-network/
>
> 5) "First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee",
> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
>
> 6) "Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%",
> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
>
> 7) "Tampering with the Delivery of Blocks and Transactions in Bitcoin",
> Arthur Gervais and Hubert Ritzdorf and Ghassan O. Karame and Srdjan
> Capkun,
> Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/578, Jun 10th 2015,
> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 0000000000000000070a2bb3b92c20d5c2c971e6e1a7abe55cdbbe6a2dd9a5ad
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 15487 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Stephen Morse
@ 2015-06-19 13:37 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 13:48 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 14:16 ` Lawrence Nahum
2015-06-19 13:40 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 13:44 ` Peter Todd
2 siblings, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Chun Wang @ 2015-06-19 13:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stephen Morse; +Cc: bitcoin-development
Hello. We recognize the problem. We will switch to FSS RBF soon. Thanks.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Stephen Morse
<stephencalebmorse@gmail•com> wrote:
> It is disappointing that F2Pool would enable full RBF when the safe
> alternative, first-seen-safe RBF, is also available, especially since the
> fees they would gain by supporting full RBF over FSS RBF would likely be
> negligible. Did they consider using FSS RBF instead?
>
> Best,
> Stephen
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:39 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>>
>> Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
>> power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions with
>> me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if a
>> conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements for
>> the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
>> previous transaction.
>>
>>
>> I'm a user. What does this mean for me?
>> ---------------------------------------
>>
>> In the short term, very little. Wallet software aimed at average users
>> has no ability to reliably detect conditions where an unconfirmed
>> transaction may be double-spent by the sender. For example, Schildbach's
>> Bitcoin Wallet for Android doesn't even detect double-spends of
>> unconfirmed transactions when connected to a RBF or Bitcoin XT nodes
>> that propagate them. The least sophisticated double-spend attack
>> possibly - simply broadcasting two conflicting transactions at the same
>> time - has about 50% probability of success against these wallets.
>>
>> Additionally, SPV wallets based on bitcoinj can't even detect invalid
>> transactions reliably, instead trusting the full node(s) it is connected
>> too over the unauthenticated, unencrypted, P2P protocol to do validation
>> for them. For instance due to a unfixed bug¹ Bitcoin XT nodes will relay
>> double-spends that spend the output of the conflicting transaction. I've
>> personally tested this with Schildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android,
>> which shows such invalid transactions as standard, unconfirmed,
>> transactions.
>>
>> Users should continue to assume that unconfirmed transactions could be
>> trivially reversed by the sender until the first confirmation. In
>> general, only the sender can reverse a transaction, so if you do trust
>> the sender feel free to assume an unconfirmed transaction will
>> eventually confirm. However, if you do not trust the sender and/or have
>> no other recourse if they double-spend you, wait until at least the
>> first confirmation before assuming the transaction will go through.
>>
>> In the long term, miner support of full RBF has a number of advantages
>> to users, allowing you to more efficiently make transactions, paying
>> lower fees. However you'll need a wallet supporting these features; none
>> exist yet.
>>
>>
>> I'm a business. What does this mean for me?
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> If you use your own node to verify transactions, you probably are in a
>> similar situation as average users, so again, this means very little to
>> you.
>>
>> If you use a payment processor/transaction API such as BitPay, Coinbase,
>> BlockCypher, etc. you may or may not be accepting unconfirmed
>> transactions, and they may or may not be "guaranteed" by your payment
>> processor even if double-spent. If like most merchants you're using the
>> API such that confirmations are required prior to accepting orders (e.g.
>> taking a meaningful loss such as shipping a product if the tx is
>> reversed) nothing changes for you. If not I recommend you contact your
>> payment processor.
>>
>>
>> I'm a miner. Why should I support replace-by-fee?
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Whether full or first-seen-safe⁵ RBF support (along with
>> child-pays-for-parent) is an important step towards a fully functioning
>> transaction fee market that doesn't lead to users' transactions getting
>> mysteriously "stuck", particularly during network flooding
>> events/attacks. A better functioning fee market will help reduce
>> pressure to increase the blocksize, particularly from the users creating
>> the most valuable transactions.
>>
>> Full RBF also helps make use of the limited blockchain space more
>> efficiently, with up to 90%+ transaction size savings possible in some
>> transaction patterns. (e.g. long payment chains⁶) More users in less
>> blockchain space will lead to higher overall fees per block.
>>
>> Finally as we'll discuss below full RBF prevents a number of serious
>> threats to the existing level playing field that miners operate in.
>>
>>
>> Why can't we make accepting unconfirmed txs from untrusted people safe?
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> For a decentralized wallet, the situation is pretty bleak. These wallets
>> only have a handful of connections to the network, with no way of
>> knowing if those connections give an accurate view of what transactions
>> miners actually know about.
>>
>> The only serious attempt to fix this problem for decentralized wallets
>> that has been actually deployed is Andresen/Harding's double-spend
>> relaying, implemented in Bitcoin XT. It relays up to one double-spend
>> transaction per double-spent txout, with the intended effect to warn
>> recipients. In practice however this functionality makes it easier to
>> double-spend rather than harder, by giving an efficient and easy way to
>> get double-spends to miners after the fact. Notably my RBF
>> implementation even connects to Bitcoin XT nodes, reserving a % of all
>> incoming and outgoing connection slots for them.
>>
>> Additionally Bitcoin XT's double-spend relaying is subject to attacks
>> include bandwidth exhaustion, sybil attacks, and Gervais's non-sybil
>> interactive attacks⁷ among many others.
>>
>>
>> What about centralised wallets?
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Here the solutions being deployed, planned, and proposed are harmful,
>> and even represent serious threats to Bitcoin's decentralization.
>>
>>
>> Confidence factors
>> ------------------
>>
>> Many services such as BlockCypher² have attempted to predict the
>> probability that unconfirmed transactions will be mined, often
>> guaranteeing merchants payment³ even in the event of a double-spend. The
>> key component of these predictions is to sybil attack the P2P network as
>> a whole, connecting to as many nodes as possible to measure transaction
>> propagation. Additionally these services connect to pools directly via
>> the getblocktemplate protocol, repeatedly downloading via GBT the lists
>> of transactions in the to-be-mined blocks to determine what transactions
>> miners are attempting to mine.
>>
>> None of these measures scale, wasting significant network and miner
>> resources; in one instance a sybil attack by Chainalysis even completely
>> blocked the users of the SPV wallet Breadwallet⁴ from accessing the
>> network. These measures also don't work very well, giving double-spend
>> attackers incentives to sybil attack miners themselves.
>>
>>
>> Transaction processing contracts with miners
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> The next step after measuring propagation fails is to contract with
>> miners directly, signing contracts with as much of the hashing power as
>> possible to get the transactions they want mined and double-spends
>> rejected. The miners/pools would then provide an authenticated API
>> endpoint for exclusive use of this service that would allow the service
>> to add and remove specific transactions to the mempool on demand.
>>
>> There's a number of serious problems with this:
>>
>> 1) Mining contracts can be used to double-spend
>>
>> ...even when they're being used "honestly".
>>
>> Suppose Alice is a merchant using CoinPayCypher, who has contracts with
>> 75% of the hashing power. Bob, another merchant, meanwhile uses a
>> decentralized Bitcoin Core backend for payments to his website.
>>
>> Mallory wants to double-spend Bob's to buy his expensive products. He
>> can do this by creating a transaction, tx1, that pays Alice, followed by
>> a second transaction, tx2, that pays Bob. In any circumstance when
>> Mallory can convince Bob to accept tx2, but prevent Bob from seeing tx1,
>> the chance of Malory's double-spend succeeding becomes ~75% because
>> CoinPayCypher's contracts with mining ensure the transaction paying
>> Alice will get mined.
>>
>> Of course, dishonest use and/or compromise makes double-spending
>> trivial: Malory can use the API credentials to ask miners to reject
>> Bob's payment at any time.
>>
>>
>> 2) They still don't work, without 51% attacking other miners
>>
>> Even if CoinPayCypher has 75% of the hashing power on contract, that's
>> still a potentially 75% chance of being double-spent. The 25% of miners
>> who haven't signed contracts have no _decentralized_ way of ensuring
>> they don't create blocks with double-spends, let alone at low cost. If
>> those miners won't or can't sign contracts with CoinPayCypher the only
>> next step available is to reject their blocks entirely.
>>
>>
>> 3) Legal contracts give the advantage to non-anonymous miners in
>> Western jurisdictions
>>
>> Suppose CoinPayCypher is a US company, and you're a miner with 1%
>> hashing power located in northern China. The barriers to you succesfully
>> negotiating a contract with CoinPayCypher are significant. You don't
>> speak the same langauge, you're in a completely different jurisdiction
>> so enforcing the legal contract is difficult, and being just 1%,
>> CoinPayCypher sees you as insignificant.
>>
>> Who's going to get the profitable hashing power contracts first, if at
>> all? Your English speaking competitors in the west. This is inherently a
>> pressure towards centralization of mining.
>>
>>
>> Why isn't this being announced on the bitcoin-security list first?
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I've had repeated discussions with services vulnerable to double-spends;
>> they have been made well aware of the risk they're taking. If they've
>> followed my own and others' advice they'll at minimum have constant
>> monitoring of the rate of double-spends both on their own services and
>> on the P2P network in general.
>>
>> If you choose to take a risk you should accept the consequences.
>>
>>
>> How do I actually use full RBF?
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> First get the full-RBF patch to v0.10.2:
>>
>> https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.10.2
>>
>> The above implementation of RBF includes additional code to find and
>> preferentially connect to other RBF nodes, as well as Bitcoin XT nodes.
>> Secondly, try out my replace-by-fee-tools at:
>>
>> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools
>>
>> You can watch double-spends on the network here:
>>
>> http://respends.thinlink.com/
>>
>>
>> References
>> ----------
>>
>> 1) "Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel
>> variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin
>> Wallet",
>> Peter Todd, May 23rd 2015, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07795.html
>>
>> 2) "From Zero to Hero: Bitcoin Transactions in 8 Seconds",
>> June 2nd, 2014, Erik Voorhees,
>>
>> https://medium.com/blockcypher-blog/from-zero-to-hero-bitcoin-transactions-in-8-seconds-7c9edcb3b734
>>
>> 3) Coinbase Merchant API, Accessed Jun 19th 2015,
>> https://developers.coinbase.com/docs/merchants/callbacks#confirmations
>>
>> 4) "Chainalysis CEO Denies 'Sybil Attack' on Bitcoin's Network",
>> March 14th 2015, Grace Caffyn, Coindesk,
>>
>> http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-on-bitcoin-network/
>>
>> 5) "First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee",
>> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
>>
>> 6) "Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%",
>> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
>>
>> 7) "Tampering with the Delivery of Blocks and Transactions in Bitcoin",
>> Arthur Gervais and Hubert Ritzdorf and Ghassan O. Karame and Srdjan
>> Capkun,
>> Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/578, Jun 10th 2015,
>> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578
>>
>> --
>> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>> 0000000000000000070a2bb3b92c20d5c2c971e6e1a7abe55cdbbe6a2dd9a5ad
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Stephen Morse
2015-06-19 13:37 ` Chun Wang
@ 2015-06-19 13:40 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 13:44 ` Peter Todd
2 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Adrian Macneil @ 2015-06-19 13:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stephen Morse; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 13906 bytes --]
Extremely disappointed to hear this. This change turns double spending from
a calculable (and affordable) risk for merchant payment processors into
certain profit for scammers, and provides no useful benefit for consumers.
I sincerely hope that F2Pool reconsider, given that RBF will decrease the
overall utility of bitcoin and reduce the number of people using it for
online purchases.
Adrian
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:33 AM, Stephen Morse <stephencalebmorse@gmail•com>
wrote:
> It is disappointing that F2Pool would enable full RBF when the safe
> alternative, first-seen-safe RBF, is also available, especially since the
> fees they would gain by supporting full RBF over FSS RBF would likely be
> negligible. Did they consider using FSS RBF instead?
>
> Best,
> Stephen
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:39 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>
>> Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
>> power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions with
>> me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if a
>> conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements for
>> the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
>> previous transaction.
>>
>>
>> I'm a user. What does this mean for me?
>> ---------------------------------------
>>
>> In the short term, very little. Wallet software aimed at average users
>> has no ability to reliably detect conditions where an unconfirmed
>> transaction may be double-spent by the sender. For example, Schildbach's
>> Bitcoin Wallet for Android doesn't even detect double-spends of
>> unconfirmed transactions when connected to a RBF or Bitcoin XT nodes
>> that propagate them. The least sophisticated double-spend attack
>> possibly - simply broadcasting two conflicting transactions at the same
>> time - has about 50% probability of success against these wallets.
>>
>> Additionally, SPV wallets based on bitcoinj can't even detect invalid
>> transactions reliably, instead trusting the full node(s) it is connected
>> too over the unauthenticated, unencrypted, P2P protocol to do validation
>> for them. For instance due to a unfixed bug¹ Bitcoin XT nodes will relay
>> double-spends that spend the output of the conflicting transaction. I've
>> personally tested this with Schildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android,
>> which shows such invalid transactions as standard, unconfirmed,
>> transactions.
>>
>> Users should continue to assume that unconfirmed transactions could be
>> trivially reversed by the sender until the first confirmation. In
>> general, only the sender can reverse a transaction, so if you do trust
>> the sender feel free to assume an unconfirmed transaction will
>> eventually confirm. However, if you do not trust the sender and/or have
>> no other recourse if they double-spend you, wait until at least the
>> first confirmation before assuming the transaction will go through.
>>
>> In the long term, miner support of full RBF has a number of advantages
>> to users, allowing you to more efficiently make transactions, paying
>> lower fees. However you'll need a wallet supporting these features; none
>> exist yet.
>>
>>
>> I'm a business. What does this mean for me?
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> If you use your own node to verify transactions, you probably are in a
>> similar situation as average users, so again, this means very little to
>> you.
>>
>> If you use a payment processor/transaction API such as BitPay, Coinbase,
>> BlockCypher, etc. you may or may not be accepting unconfirmed
>> transactions, and they may or may not be "guaranteed" by your payment
>> processor even if double-spent. If like most merchants you're using the
>> API such that confirmations are required prior to accepting orders (e.g.
>> taking a meaningful loss such as shipping a product if the tx is
>> reversed) nothing changes for you. If not I recommend you contact your
>> payment processor.
>>
>>
>> I'm a miner. Why should I support replace-by-fee?
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Whether full or first-seen-safe⁵ RBF support (along with
>> child-pays-for-parent) is an important step towards a fully functioning
>> transaction fee market that doesn't lead to users' transactions getting
>> mysteriously "stuck", particularly during network flooding
>> events/attacks. A better functioning fee market will help reduce
>> pressure to increase the blocksize, particularly from the users creating
>> the most valuable transactions.
>>
>> Full RBF also helps make use of the limited blockchain space more
>> efficiently, with up to 90%+ transaction size savings possible in some
>> transaction patterns. (e.g. long payment chains⁶) More users in less
>> blockchain space will lead to higher overall fees per block.
>>
>> Finally as we'll discuss below full RBF prevents a number of serious
>> threats to the existing level playing field that miners operate in.
>>
>>
>> Why can't we make accepting unconfirmed txs from untrusted people safe?
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> For a decentralized wallet, the situation is pretty bleak. These wallets
>> only have a handful of connections to the network, with no way of
>> knowing if those connections give an accurate view of what transactions
>> miners actually know about.
>>
>> The only serious attempt to fix this problem for decentralized wallets
>> that has been actually deployed is Andresen/Harding's double-spend
>> relaying, implemented in Bitcoin XT. It relays up to one double-spend
>> transaction per double-spent txout, with the intended effect to warn
>> recipients. In practice however this functionality makes it easier to
>> double-spend rather than harder, by giving an efficient and easy way to
>> get double-spends to miners after the fact. Notably my RBF
>> implementation even connects to Bitcoin XT nodes, reserving a % of all
>> incoming and outgoing connection slots for them.
>>
>> Additionally Bitcoin XT's double-spend relaying is subject to attacks
>> include bandwidth exhaustion, sybil attacks, and Gervais's non-sybil
>> interactive attacks⁷ among many others.
>>
>>
>> What about centralised wallets?
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Here the solutions being deployed, planned, and proposed are harmful,
>> and even represent serious threats to Bitcoin's decentralization.
>>
>>
>> Confidence factors
>> ------------------
>>
>> Many services such as BlockCypher² have attempted to predict the
>> probability that unconfirmed transactions will be mined, often
>> guaranteeing merchants payment³ even in the event of a double-spend. The
>> key component of these predictions is to sybil attack the P2P network as
>> a whole, connecting to as many nodes as possible to measure transaction
>> propagation. Additionally these services connect to pools directly via
>> the getblocktemplate protocol, repeatedly downloading via GBT the lists
>> of transactions in the to-be-mined blocks to determine what transactions
>> miners are attempting to mine.
>>
>> None of these measures scale, wasting significant network and miner
>> resources; in one instance a sybil attack by Chainalysis even completely
>> blocked the users of the SPV wallet Breadwallet⁴ from accessing the
>> network. These measures also don't work very well, giving double-spend
>> attackers incentives to sybil attack miners themselves.
>>
>>
>> Transaction processing contracts with miners
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> The next step after measuring propagation fails is to contract with
>> miners directly, signing contracts with as much of the hashing power as
>> possible to get the transactions they want mined and double-spends
>> rejected. The miners/pools would then provide an authenticated API
>> endpoint for exclusive use of this service that would allow the service
>> to add and remove specific transactions to the mempool on demand.
>>
>> There's a number of serious problems with this:
>>
>> 1) Mining contracts can be used to double-spend
>>
>> ...even when they're being used "honestly".
>>
>> Suppose Alice is a merchant using CoinPayCypher, who has contracts with
>> 75% of the hashing power. Bob, another merchant, meanwhile uses a
>> decentralized Bitcoin Core backend for payments to his website.
>>
>> Mallory wants to double-spend Bob's to buy his expensive products. He
>> can do this by creating a transaction, tx1, that pays Alice, followed by
>> a second transaction, tx2, that pays Bob. In any circumstance when
>> Mallory can convince Bob to accept tx2, but prevent Bob from seeing tx1,
>> the chance of Malory's double-spend succeeding becomes ~75% because
>> CoinPayCypher's contracts with mining ensure the transaction paying
>> Alice will get mined.
>>
>> Of course, dishonest use and/or compromise makes double-spending
>> trivial: Malory can use the API credentials to ask miners to reject
>> Bob's payment at any time.
>>
>>
>> 2) They still don't work, without 51% attacking other miners
>>
>> Even if CoinPayCypher has 75% of the hashing power on contract, that's
>> still a potentially 75% chance of being double-spent. The 25% of miners
>> who haven't signed contracts have no _decentralized_ way of ensuring
>> they don't create blocks with double-spends, let alone at low cost. If
>> those miners won't or can't sign contracts with CoinPayCypher the only
>> next step available is to reject their blocks entirely.
>>
>>
>> 3) Legal contracts give the advantage to non-anonymous miners in
>> Western jurisdictions
>>
>> Suppose CoinPayCypher is a US company, and you're a miner with 1%
>> hashing power located in northern China. The barriers to you succesfully
>> negotiating a contract with CoinPayCypher are significant. You don't
>> speak the same langauge, you're in a completely different jurisdiction
>> so enforcing the legal contract is difficult, and being just 1%,
>> CoinPayCypher sees you as insignificant.
>>
>> Who's going to get the profitable hashing power contracts first, if at
>> all? Your English speaking competitors in the west. This is inherently a
>> pressure towards centralization of mining.
>>
>>
>> Why isn't this being announced on the bitcoin-security list first?
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I've had repeated discussions with services vulnerable to double-spends;
>> they have been made well aware of the risk they're taking. If they've
>> followed my own and others' advice they'll at minimum have constant
>> monitoring of the rate of double-spends both on their own services and
>> on the P2P network in general.
>>
>> If you choose to take a risk you should accept the consequences.
>>
>>
>> How do I actually use full RBF?
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> First get the full-RBF patch to v0.10.2:
>>
>> https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.10.2
>>
>> The above implementation of RBF includes additional code to find and
>> preferentially connect to other RBF nodes, as well as Bitcoin XT nodes.
>> Secondly, try out my replace-by-fee-tools at:
>>
>> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools
>>
>> You can watch double-spends on the network here:
>>
>> http://respends.thinlink.com/
>>
>>
>> References
>> ----------
>>
>> 1) "Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel
>> variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin
>> Wallet",
>> Peter Todd, May 23rd 2015, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07795.html
>>
>> 2) "From Zero to Hero: Bitcoin Transactions in 8 Seconds",
>> June 2nd, 2014, Erik Voorhees,
>>
>> https://medium.com/blockcypher-blog/from-zero-to-hero-bitcoin-transactions-in-8-seconds-7c9edcb3b734
>>
>> 3) Coinbase Merchant API, Accessed Jun 19th 2015,
>> https://developers.coinbase.com/docs/merchants/callbacks#confirmations
>>
>> 4) "Chainalysis CEO Denies 'Sybil Attack' on Bitcoin's Network",
>> March 14th 2015, Grace Caffyn, Coindesk,
>>
>> http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-on-bitcoin-network/
>>
>> 5) "First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee",
>> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
>>
>> 6) "Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%",
>> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
>>
>> 7) "Tampering with the Delivery of Blocks and Transactions in Bitcoin",
>> Arthur Gervais and Hubert Ritzdorf and Ghassan O. Karame and Srdjan
>> Capkun,
>> Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/578, Jun 10th 2015,
>> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578
>>
>> --
>> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>> 0000000000000000070a2bb3b92c20d5c2c971e6e1a7abe55cdbbe6a2dd9a5ad
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 16914 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Stephen Morse
2015-06-19 13:37 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 13:40 ` Adrian Macneil
@ 2015-06-19 13:44 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Chun Wang
` (2 more replies)
2 siblings, 3 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 13:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stephen Morse; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6040 bytes --]
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:33:05AM -0400, Stephen Morse wrote:
> It is disappointing that F2Pool would enable full RBF when the safe
> alternative, first-seen-safe RBF, is also available, especially since the
> fees they would gain by supporting full RBF over FSS RBF would likely be
> negligible. Did they consider using FSS RBF instead?
Specifically the following is what I told them:
> We are
> interested in the replace-by-fee patch, but I am not following the
> development closely, more background info is needed, like what the
> difference between standard and zeroconf versions? Thanks.
Great!
Basically both let you replace one transaction with another that pays a
higher fee. First-seen-safe replace-by-fee adds the additional criteria
that all outputs of the old transaction still need to be paid by the new
transaction, with >= as many Bitcoins. Basically, it makes sure that if
someone was paid by tx1, then tx2 will still pay them.
I've written about how wallets can use RBF and FSS-RBF to more
efficiently use the blockchain on the bitcoin-development mailing list:
http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
Basically, for the purpose of increasing fees, RBF is something like %50
cheaper than CPFP, and FSS-RBF is something like %25 cheaper.
In addition, for ease of implementation, my new FSS-RBF has a number of
other restrictions. For instance, you can't replace multiple
transactions with one, you can't replace a transaction whose outputs
have already been spent, you can't replace a transaction with one that
spends additional unconfirmed inputs, etc. These restrictions aren't
"set in stone", but they do make the code simpler and less likely to
have bugs.
In comparison my previous standard RBF patch can replace multiple
transactions with one, can replace long chains of transactions, etc.
It's willing to do more computation before deciding if a transaction
should be replaced, with more complex logic; it probably has a higher
chance of having a bug or DoS attack.
You've probably seen the huge controversy around zeroconf with regard to
standard replace-by-fee. While FSS RBF doesn't make zeroconf any safer,
it also doesn't make it any more dangerous, so politically with regard
to zeroconf it makes no difference. You *can* still use it doublespend
by taking advantage of how different transactions are accepted
differently, but that's true of *every* change we've ever made to
Bitcoin Core - by upgrading to v0.10 from v0.9 you've also "broken"
zeroconf in the same way.
Having said that... honestly, zeroconf is pretty broken already. Only
with pretty heroic measures like connecting to a significant fraction of
the Bitcoin network at once, as well as connecting to getblocktemplate
supporting miners to figure out what transactions are being mined, are
services having any hope of avoiding getting ripped off. For the average
user their wallets do a terrible job of showing whether or not an
unconfirmed transaction will go through. For example, Schildbach's
Bitcoin wallet for Android has no code at all to detect double-spends
until they get mined, and I've been able to trick it into showing
completely invalid transactions. In fact, currently Bitcoin XT will
relay invalid transactions that are doublepsends, and Schildbach's
wallet displays them as valid, unconfirmed, payments. It's really no
surprise to me that nearly no-one in the Bitcoin ecosystem accepts
unconfirmed transactions without some kind of protection that doesn't
rely on first-seen-safe mempool behavior. For instance, many ATM's these
days know who their customers are due to AML requirements, so while you
can deposit Bitcoins and get your funds instantly, the protection for
the ATM operator is that they can go to the police if you rip them off;
I've spoken to ATM operators who didn't do this who've lost hundreds or
even thousands of dollars before giving up on zeroconf.
My big worry with zeroconf is a service like Coinbase or Shapeshift
coming to rely on it, and then attempting to secure it by gaining
control of a majority of hashing power. For instance, if Coinbase had
contracts with 80% of the Bitcoin hashing power to guarantee their
transactions would get mined, but 20% of the hashing power didn't sign
up, then the only way to guarantee their transactions could be for the
80% to not build on blocks containing doublespends by the 20%. There's
no way in a decentralized network to come to consensus about what
transactions are or are not valid without mining itself, so you could
end up in a situation where unless you're part of one of the big pools
you can't reliably mine at all because your blocks may get rejected for
containing doublespends.
One of my goal with standard replace-by-fee is to prevent this scenario
by forcing merchants and others to implement ways of accepting zeroconf
transactions safely that work in a decentralized environment regardless
of what miners do; we have a stronger and safer Bitcoin ecosystem if
we're relying on math rather than trust to secure our zeroconf
transactions. We're also being more honest to users, who right now often
have the very wrong impression that unconfirmed transactions are safe to
accept - this does get people ripped off all too often!
Anyway, sorry for the rant! FWIW I updated my FSS-RBF patch and am
waiting to get some feedback:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6176
Suhas Daftuar did find a pretty serious bug in it, now fixed. I'm
working on porting it to v0.10.2, and once that's done I'm going to put
up a bounty for anyone who can find a DoS attack in the patch. If no-one
claims the bounty after a week or two I think I'll start feeling
confident about using it in production.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:37 ` Chun Wang
@ 2015-06-19 13:48 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 14:16 ` Lawrence Nahum
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 13:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chun Wang; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:37:49PM +0800, Chun Wang wrote:
> Hello. We recognize the problem. We will switch to FSS RBF soon. Thanks.
No worries, let me know if you have any issues. You have my phone
number.
While my own preference - and a number of other devs - is full-RBF,
either one is a good step forward for Bitcoin.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:44 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 13:52 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 15:43 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 19:49 ` Jeffrey Paul
2015-06-19 15:42 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 16:15 ` Peter Todd
2 siblings, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Chun Wang @ 2015-06-19 13:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: bitcoin-development
Before F2Pool's launch, I performed probably the only successful
bitcoin double spend in the March 2013 fork without any mining power.
[ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152348.0 ] I know how bad
the full RBF is. We are going to switch to FSS RBF in a few hours.
Sorry.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:33:05AM -0400, Stephen Morse wrote:
>> It is disappointing that F2Pool would enable full RBF when the safe
>> alternative, first-seen-safe RBF, is also available, especially since the
>> fees they would gain by supporting full RBF over FSS RBF would likely be
>> negligible. Did they consider using FSS RBF instead?
>
> Specifically the following is what I told them:
>
>> We are
>> interested in the replace-by-fee patch, but I am not following the
>> development closely, more background info is needed, like what the
>> difference between standard and zeroconf versions? Thanks.
>
> Great!
>
> Basically both let you replace one transaction with another that pays a
> higher fee. First-seen-safe replace-by-fee adds the additional criteria
> that all outputs of the old transaction still need to be paid by the new
> transaction, with >= as many Bitcoins. Basically, it makes sure that if
> someone was paid by tx1, then tx2 will still pay them.
>
> I've written about how wallets can use RBF and FSS-RBF to more
> efficiently use the blockchain on the bitcoin-development mailing list:
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
>
> Basically, for the purpose of increasing fees, RBF is something like %50
> cheaper than CPFP, and FSS-RBF is something like %25 cheaper.
>
> In addition, for ease of implementation, my new FSS-RBF has a number of
> other restrictions. For instance, you can't replace multiple
> transactions with one, you can't replace a transaction whose outputs
> have already been spent, you can't replace a transaction with one that
> spends additional unconfirmed inputs, etc. These restrictions aren't
> "set in stone", but they do make the code simpler and less likely to
> have bugs.
>
> In comparison my previous standard RBF patch can replace multiple
> transactions with one, can replace long chains of transactions, etc.
> It's willing to do more computation before deciding if a transaction
> should be replaced, with more complex logic; it probably has a higher
> chance of having a bug or DoS attack.
>
> You've probably seen the huge controversy around zeroconf with regard to
> standard replace-by-fee. While FSS RBF doesn't make zeroconf any safer,
> it also doesn't make it any more dangerous, so politically with regard
> to zeroconf it makes no difference. You *can* still use it doublespend
> by taking advantage of how different transactions are accepted
> differently, but that's true of *every* change we've ever made to
> Bitcoin Core - by upgrading to v0.10 from v0.9 you've also "broken"
> zeroconf in the same way.
>
>
> Having said that... honestly, zeroconf is pretty broken already. Only
> with pretty heroic measures like connecting to a significant fraction of
> the Bitcoin network at once, as well as connecting to getblocktemplate
> supporting miners to figure out what transactions are being mined, are
> services having any hope of avoiding getting ripped off. For the average
> user their wallets do a terrible job of showing whether or not an
> unconfirmed transaction will go through. For example, Schildbach's
> Bitcoin wallet for Android has no code at all to detect double-spends
> until they get mined, and I've been able to trick it into showing
> completely invalid transactions. In fact, currently Bitcoin XT will
> relay invalid transactions that are doublepsends, and Schildbach's
> wallet displays them as valid, unconfirmed, payments. It's really no
> surprise to me that nearly no-one in the Bitcoin ecosystem accepts
> unconfirmed transactions without some kind of protection that doesn't
> rely on first-seen-safe mempool behavior. For instance, many ATM's these
> days know who their customers are due to AML requirements, so while you
> can deposit Bitcoins and get your funds instantly, the protection for
> the ATM operator is that they can go to the police if you rip them off;
> I've spoken to ATM operators who didn't do this who've lost hundreds or
> even thousands of dollars before giving up on zeroconf.
>
> My big worry with zeroconf is a service like Coinbase or Shapeshift
> coming to rely on it, and then attempting to secure it by gaining
> control of a majority of hashing power. For instance, if Coinbase had
> contracts with 80% of the Bitcoin hashing power to guarantee their
> transactions would get mined, but 20% of the hashing power didn't sign
> up, then the only way to guarantee their transactions could be for the
> 80% to not build on blocks containing doublespends by the 20%. There's
> no way in a decentralized network to come to consensus about what
> transactions are or are not valid without mining itself, so you could
> end up in a situation where unless you're part of one of the big pools
> you can't reliably mine at all because your blocks may get rejected for
> containing doublespends.
>
> One of my goal with standard replace-by-fee is to prevent this scenario
> by forcing merchants and others to implement ways of accepting zeroconf
> transactions safely that work in a decentralized environment regardless
> of what miners do; we have a stronger and safer Bitcoin ecosystem if
> we're relying on math rather than trust to secure our zeroconf
> transactions. We're also being more honest to users, who right now often
> have the very wrong impression that unconfirmed transactions are safe to
> accept - this does get people ripped off all too often!
>
>
> Anyway, sorry for the rant! FWIW I updated my FSS-RBF patch and am
> waiting to get some feedback:
>
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6176
>
> Suhas Daftuar did find a pretty serious bug in it, now fixed. I'm
> working on porting it to v0.10.2, and once that's done I'm going to put
> up a bounty for anyone who can find a DoS attack in the patch. If no-one
> claims the bounty after a week or two I think I'll start feeling
> confident about using it in production.
>
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 000000000000000003188926be14e5fbe2f8f9c63c9fb8e2ba4b14ab04f1c9ab
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Gavin Andresen
@ 2015-06-19 13:52 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 14:00 ` Adrian Macneil
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 13:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin Andresen; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 996 bytes --]
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:33:03AM -0400, Gavin Andresen wrote:
> I just sent the following email to F2Pool:
>
>
> I was disappointed to see Peter Todd claiming that you have (or will?) run
> his replace-by-fee patch.
>
> I strongly encourage you to wait until most wallet software supports
> replace-by-fee before doing that, because until that happens replace-by-fee
> just makes it easier to steal from bitcoin-accepting merchants.
Do you mean just full-RBF, or FSS-RBF as well?
Speaking of, could we get a confirmation that Coinbase is, or is not,
one of the merchant service providers trying to get hashing power
contracts with mining pools for guaranteed transaction acceptance? IIRC
you are still an advisor to them. This is a serious concern for the
reasons I outlined in my post.
Equally if anyone else from Coinbase would like to chime in that'd be
great.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 14:00 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 14:08 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 14:40 ` Chun Wang
0 siblings, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Adrian Macneil @ 2015-06-19 14:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1336 bytes --]
>
> For instance, if Coinbase had
> contracts with 80% of the Bitcoin hashing power to guarantee their
> transactions would get mined, but 20% of the hashing power didn't sign
> up, then the only way to guarantee their transactions could be for the
> 80% to not build on blocks containing doublespends by the 20%.
>
This seems to be more of a problem with centralized mining than zeroconf
transactions.
Speaking of, could we get a confirmation that Coinbase is, or is not,
> one of the merchant service providers trying to get hashing power
> contracts with mining pools for guaranteed transaction acceptance? IIRC
> you are still an advisor to them. This is a serious concern for the
> reasons I outlined in my post.
>
We have no contracts in place or plans to do this that I am aware of.
However, we do rely pretty heavily on zeroconf transactions for merchant
processing, so if any significant portion of the mining pools started
running your unsafe RBF patch, then we would probably need to look into
this as a way to prevent fraud.
In the long term, I would love to see a safe, decentralized solution for
accepting zeroconf transactions. However, right now there is no such
solution supported by any wallets in use, and I don't think breaking the
current bitcoin behavior for everyone is the best way to achieve this.
Adrian
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 14:00 ` Adrian Macneil
@ 2015-06-19 14:08 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 14:30 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 14:40 ` Chun Wang
1 sibling, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 14:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Adrian Macneil; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2028 bytes --]
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 07:00:56AM -0700, Adrian Macneil wrote:
> >
> > For instance, if Coinbase had
> > contracts with 80% of the Bitcoin hashing power to guarantee their
> > transactions would get mined, but 20% of the hashing power didn't sign
> > up, then the only way to guarantee their transactions could be for the
> > 80% to not build on blocks containing doublespends by the 20%.
> >
>
> This seems to be more of a problem with centralized mining than zeroconf
> transactions.
You're mistaking cause and effect: the contracts will drive
centralization of mining, as only the larger, non-anonymous, players
have the ability to enter into such contracts.
> Speaking of, could we get a confirmation that Coinbase is, or is not,
> > one of the merchant service providers trying to get hashing power
> > contracts with mining pools for guaranteed transaction acceptance? IIRC
> > you are still an advisor to them. This is a serious concern for the
> > reasons I outlined in my post.
> >
>
> We have no contracts in place or plans to do this that I am aware of.
>
> However, we do rely pretty heavily on zeroconf transactions for merchant
> processing, so if any significant portion of the mining pools started
> running your unsafe RBF patch, then we would probably need to look into
> this as a way to prevent fraud.
What happens if the mining pools who are mining double-spends aren't
doing it delibrately? Sybil attacking pools appears to have been done
before to get double-spends though, equally there are many other changes
the reduce the reliability of transaction confirmations. For instance
the higher demands on bandwidth of a higher blocksize will inevitably
reduce the syncronicity of mempools, resulting in double-spend
opportunities. Similarly many proposals to limit mempool size allow
zeroconf double-spends.
In that case would you enter into such contracts?
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
000000000000000005a4c76d0bf088ef3e059914d6fc0335683a92b5be01b7dc
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:37 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 13:48 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 14:16 ` Lawrence Nahum
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Lawrence Nahum @ 2015-06-19 14:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
Chun Wang <1240902 <at> gmail.com> writes:
> Hello. We recognize the problem. We will switch to FSS RBF soon. Thanks.
FSS RBF is better than no RBF but we think it is better to use full RBF.
We think Full RBF is better for a number of reasons:
-user experience
-efficiency
-cost
-code complexity
We think FSS RBF is great progress but ultimately less efficient and more
complicated to keep alive something that never worked properly.
And why would miner pick the option paying less when other miners run the
option paying more? It may be soon more than 1-5% of block reward.
A lot of users don't have multiple UTXO handy.
Full RBF is the best, second FSS RBF and we'd be looking into supporting
them both separately so that miners and users can pick whichever they
prefer.
If users only had one UTXO it makes sense to use Full RBF since there are no
other options.
Disclosure: GreenAddress always believed zero conf transactions are not
secure and that miners have the incentive to run FBF; this bias doesn't make
the above less true
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 14:08 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 14:30 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 14:59 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Adrian Macneil @ 2015-06-19 14:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1815 bytes --]
>
> > We have no contracts in place or plans to do this that I am aware of.
> >
> > However, we do rely pretty heavily on zeroconf transactions for merchant
> > processing, so if any significant portion of the mining pools started
> > running your unsafe RBF patch, then we would probably need to look into
> > this as a way to prevent fraud.
>
> What happens if the mining pools who are mining double-spends aren't
> doing it delibrately? Sybil attacking pools appears to have been done
> before to get double-spends though, equally there are many other changes
> the reduce the reliability of transaction confirmations. For instance
> the higher demands on bandwidth of a higher blocksize will inevitably
> reduce the syncronicity of mempools, resulting in double-spend
> opportunities. Similarly many proposals to limit mempool size allow
> zeroconf double-spends.
>
> In that case would you enter into such contracts?
>
We take it as it comes.
Currently, it's perfectly possible to accept zeroconf transactions with
only a very small chance of double spend. As long as it's only possible to
double spend a small fraction of the time, it's an acceptable cost to us in
exchange for being able to provide a fast checkout experience to customers
and merchants.
If the status quo changes, then we will need to investigate alternatives
(which realistically would include mining contracts, or only accepting
instant payments from other trusted hosted wallets, which would be a net
loss for decentralization).
Long term we would prefer to see an open, decentralized solution, such as
payment channels / green addresses / lightening networks. However, I think
as a community we are a long way away from choosing a standard here and
implementing it across all popular wallet software and merchant processors.
Adrian
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 14:00 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 14:08 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 14:40 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 15:22 ` Adrian Macneil
1 sibling, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Chun Wang @ 2015-06-19 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Adrian Macneil; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Adrian Macneil <adrian@coinbase•com> wrote:
> However, we do rely pretty heavily on zeroconf transactions for merchant
> processing, so if any significant portion of the mining pools started
> running your unsafe RBF patch, then we would probably need to look into this
> as a way to prevent fraud.
This might be useful to you: https://www.f2pool.com/api/mempool
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 14:30 ` Adrian Macneil
@ 2015-06-19 14:59 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 15:20 ` Adrian Macneil
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Adrian Macneil; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1940 bytes --]
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 07:30:17AM -0700, Adrian Macneil wrote:
> > In that case would you enter into such contracts?
> >
>
> We take it as it comes.
>
> Currently, it's perfectly possible to accept zeroconf transactions with
> only a very small chance of double spend. As long as it's only possible to
> double spend a small fraction of the time, it's an acceptable cost to us in
> exchange for being able to provide a fast checkout experience to customers
> and merchants.
Unless you're sybil attacking the network and miners, consuming valuable
resources and creating systemic risks of failure like we saw with
Chainalysis, I don't see how you're getting "very small" double-spend
probabilities.
You realise how the fact that F2Pool is using full-RBF right now does
strongly suggest that the chances of a double-spend are not only low,
but more importantly, vary greatly? Any small change in relaying policy
or even network conditions creates opportunities to double-spend.
> If the status quo changes, then we will need to investigate alternatives
> (which realistically would include mining contracts, or only accepting
> instant payments from other trusted hosted wallets, which would be a net
> loss for decentralization).
You know, you're creating an interesting bit of game theory here: if I'm
a miner who doesn't already have a mining contract, why not implement
full-RBF to force Coinbase to offer me one? One reason might be because
other miners with such a contract - a majority - are going to be asked
by Coinbase to reorg you out of the blockchain, but then we have a
situation where a single entity has control of the blockchain.
For the good of Bitcoin, and your own company, you'd do well to firmly
state that under no condition will Coinbase ever enter into mining
contracts.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000000fe727215265d9ddacb2930ad2d45920b71920b7aed687f1
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 10:39 [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Stephen Morse
@ 2015-06-19 15:00 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 15:11 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 15:39 ` Jeff Garzik
` (2 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: justusranvier @ 2015-06-19 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
On 2015-06-19 10:39, Peter Todd wrote:
Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions
with
me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if
a
conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements
for
the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
previous transaction.
Intentional fraud is a bad thing to add to a financial protocol.
A user who creates conflicting transactions, one that pays someone else
and another which does not pay them, and broadcasts both of them, has
just self-incriminated themselves by producing prima facie evidence of
fraud.
It may be the case that since Bitcoin spans multiple legal jurisdictions
and can be use anonymously that the victims of such fraud can not rely
on legal recourse, and it may also be the case that proof of work is how
Bitcoin deals with the aforementioned factors, but regardless
un-prosecutable fraud is still fraud and anyone who encourages it should
be recognied as a bad actors.
Committing vandalism and encouraging fraud to prove a point may be
something the network can't stop on a technical level, but there's no
reason not to call it out for what it is.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 15:00 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-19 15:11 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 15:37 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 15:39 ` justusranvier
0 siblings, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 15:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: justusranvier; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2800 bytes --]
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 03:00:57PM +0000, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
> On 2015-06-19 10:39, Peter Todd wrote:
>
> Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
> power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions
> with
> me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if
> a
> conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements
> for
> the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
> previous transaction.
>
>
> Intentional fraud is a bad thing to add to a financial protocol.
>
> A user who creates conflicting transactions, one that pays someone else
> and another which does not pay them, and broadcasts both of them, has
> just self-incriminated themselves by producing prima facie evidence of
> fraud.
Depends.
If you ask me to pay you 1BTC at address A and I create tx1 that pays
1BTC to A1 and 2BTC of chain to C, what's wrong with me creating tx2
that still pays 1BTC to A, but now only pays 1.999BTC to C? I'm not
defrauding you, I'm just reducing the value of my change address to pay
a higher fee. Similarly if I now need to pay Bob 0.5BTC, I can create
tx3 paying 1BTC to A, 0.5BTC to B, and 1.498BTC to C.
Yet from the point of view of an external observer they have no idea why
the transaction outputs reduced in size, nor any way of knowing if fraud
did or did not occur.
Equally, maybe you tell me "Actually, just give me 0.5BTC to cancel out
that debt", in which case I'm not breaking any contract at all by giving
you less money than I first promised - the contract has changed.
Again, none of this can or should be observable to anyone other than the
parties directly involved.
> It may be the case that since Bitcoin spans multiple legal jurisdictions
> and can be use anonymously that the victims of such fraud can not rely
> on legal recourse, and it may also be the case that proof of work is how
> Bitcoin deals with the aforementioned factors, but regardless
> un-prosecutable fraud is still fraud and anyone who encourages it should
> be recognied as a bad actors.
>
> Committing vandalism and encouraging fraud to prove a point may be
> something the network can't stop on a technical level, but there's no
> reason not to call it out for what it is.
What do you think of Bitcoin XT then? It relays double-spends, which
makes it much easier to get double-spends to miners than before. In
particular you see a lot of zero-fee transactions being replaced by
fee-paying transactions, relayed through Bitcoin XT nodes and then
mined. Is that encouraging fraud?
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 14:59 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 15:20 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 15:40 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Adrian Macneil @ 2015-06-19 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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>
> Unless you're sybil attacking the network and miners, consuming valuable
> resources and creating systemic risks of failure like we saw with
> Chainalysis, I don't see how you're getting "very small" double-spend
> probabilities.
>
So connecting to many nodes just because we can and it's not technically
prevented is bad for the network and creating systemic risks of failure,
but relaying harmful double spend transactions just because you can and
it's not technically prevented, is good for everyone?
> You know, you're creating an interesting bit of game theory here: if I'm
> a miner who doesn't already have a mining contract, why not implement
> full-RBF to force Coinbase to offer me one? One reason might be because
> other miners with such a contract - a majority - are going to be asked
> by Coinbase to reorg you out of the blockchain, but then we have a
> situation where a single entity has control of the blockchain.
>
If someone did enter into contracts with miners to mine certain
transactions, and had a guarantee that the miners would not build on
previous blocks which included double spends, then they would only need
contracts with 51% of the network anyway. So it wouldn't really matter if
you were a small time miner and wanted to run full-RBF.
> For the good of Bitcoin, and your own company, you'd do well to firmly
> state that under no condition will Coinbase ever enter into mining
> contracts.
>
I don't personally see what good this does for bitcoin. Now you are
suggesting that we should prevent a 51% attack by using policy and
promises, rather than a technical solution. How is this any better than us
relying on existing double spend rules which are based on policy and
promises?
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* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 14:40 ` Chun Wang
@ 2015-06-19 15:22 ` Adrian Macneil
0 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Adrian Macneil @ 2015-06-19 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chun Wang; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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Great. Thank you for this!
Adrian
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 7:40 AM, Chun Wang <1240902@gmail•com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Adrian Macneil <adrian@coinbase•com>
> wrote:
> > However, we do rely pretty heavily on zeroconf transactions for merchant
> > processing, so if any significant portion of the mining pools started
> > running your unsafe RBF patch, then we would probably need to look into
> this
> > as a way to prevent fraud.
>
> This might be useful to you: https://www.f2pool.com/api/mempool
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 15:11 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 15:37 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 15:53 ` justusranvier
2015-06-20 23:16 ` [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Jorge Timón
2015-06-19 15:39 ` justusranvier
1 sibling, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-19 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: bitcoin-development, justusranvier
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OK, a few things here:
The Bitcoin network was designed (or should be designed) with the requirement that it can withstand deliberate double-spend attacks that can come from anywhere at any time…and relaxing this assumption without adequately assessing the risk (i.e. I’ve never been hacked before so I can assume it’s safe) is extremely dangerous at best and just horrid security practice at worst. Your users might not thank you for not getting hacked - but they surely will not like it when you DO get hacked…and lack a proper recovery plan.
Furthermore, the protocol itself makes no assumptions regarding the intentions behind someone signing two conflicting transactions. There are many potential use cases where doing so could make a lot of sense. Had the protocol been designed along the lines of, say, tendermint…where signing multiple conflicting blocks results in loss of one’s funds…then the protocol itself disincentivizes the behavior without requiring any sort of altruistic, moralistic assumptions. That would also mean we’d need a different mechanism for the use cases that things like RBF address.
Thirdly, taken to the extreme, the viewpoint of “signing a conflicting transaction is fraud and vandalism” means that if for whatever reason you attempt to propagate a transaction and nobody mines it for a very long time, you’re not entitled to immediately reclaim those funds…they must remain in limbo forever.
- Eric Lombrozo
> On Jun 19, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 03:00:57PM +0000, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
>> On 2015-06-19 10:39, Peter Todd wrote:
>>
>> Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
>> power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions
>> with
>> me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if
>> a
>> conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements
>> for
>> the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
>> previous transaction.
>>
>>
>> Intentional fraud is a bad thing to add to a financial protocol.
>>
>> A user who creates conflicting transactions, one that pays someone else
>> and another which does not pay them, and broadcasts both of them, has
>> just self-incriminated themselves by producing prima facie evidence of
>> fraud.
>
> Depends.
>
> If you ask me to pay you 1BTC at address A and I create tx1 that pays
> 1BTC to A1 and 2BTC of chain to C, what's wrong with me creating tx2
> that still pays 1BTC to A, but now only pays 1.999BTC to C? I'm not
> defrauding you, I'm just reducing the value of my change address to pay
> a higher fee. Similarly if I now need to pay Bob 0.5BTC, I can create
> tx3 paying 1BTC to A, 0.5BTC to B, and 1.498BTC to C.
>
> Yet from the point of view of an external observer they have no idea why
> the transaction outputs reduced in size, nor any way of knowing if fraud
> did or did not occur.
>
> Equally, maybe you tell me "Actually, just give me 0.5BTC to cancel out
> that debt", in which case I'm not breaking any contract at all by giving
> you less money than I first promised - the contract has changed.
>
> Again, none of this can or should be observable to anyone other than the
> parties directly involved.
>
>> It may be the case that since Bitcoin spans multiple legal jurisdictions
>> and can be use anonymously that the victims of such fraud can not rely
>> on legal recourse, and it may also be the case that proof of work is how
>> Bitcoin deals with the aforementioned factors, but regardless
>> un-prosecutable fraud is still fraud and anyone who encourages it should
>> be recognied as a bad actors.
>>
>> Committing vandalism and encouraging fraud to prove a point may be
>> something the network can't stop on a technical level, but there's no
>> reason not to call it out for what it is.
>
> What do you think of Bitcoin XT then? It relays double-spends, which
> makes it much easier to get double-spends to miners than before. In
> particular you see a lot of zero-fee transactions being replaced by
> fee-paying transactions, relayed through Bitcoin XT nodes and then
> mined. Is that encouraging fraud?
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 000000000000000003932458055c68d4ee2b6d68441c4764efbdf6b0b1683717
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 15:11 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 15:37 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-19 15:39 ` justusranvier
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: justusranvier @ 2015-06-19 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: bitcoin-development
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
On 2015-06-19 15:11, Peter Todd wrote:
> If you ask me to pay you 1BTC at address A and I create tx1 that pays
> 1BTC to A1 and 2BTC of chain to C, what's wrong with me creating tx2
> that still pays 1BTC to A, but now only pays 1.999BTC to C? I'm not
> defrauding you, I'm just reducing the value of my change address to pay
> a higher fee. Similarly if I now need to pay Bob 0.5BTC, I can create
> tx3 paying 1BTC to A, 0.5BTC to B, and 1.498BTC to C.
>
> Yet from the point of view of an external observer they have no idea
> why
> the transaction outputs reduced in size, nor any way of knowing if
> fraud
> did or did not occur.
If there are two transactions which spend the same inputs, and each
transaction has completely different output scripts, then this is prima
facie fraudulent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_facie
If the two transactions have identical output scripts, and one output is
reduced in value to increase the transaction fee, that has the
appearance of honest dealing. There is a possibility that the payer has
chose to under-pay their payee in order to over-pay the miner, but
that's not what a reasonable observer would assume at first glance.
Adding outputs to a transaction, while keeping all the existing outputs
exactly how they are is another way of increasing the transaction fee of
a transaction and is prima facie non-fraudulent.
Note that child-pays-for-parent has none of this ambiguity.
> What do you think of Bitcoin XT then? It relays double-spends, which
> makes it much easier to get double-spends to miners than before. In
> particular you see a lot of zero-fee transactions being replaced by
> fee-paying transactions, relayed through Bitcoin XT nodes and then
> mined. Is that encouraging fraud?
I haven't closely looked into the features of Bitcoin XT because I'm
hoping that it never becomes relevant. I do want to see a heterogenous
implementation network develop, but Bitcoin XT doesn't really count
since it's a derivative of the Bitcoin Core codebase.
In general, I think every signed Bitcoin transaction sent between
different parties is part of a valid, enforceable contract (using common
law definitions which predate any particular legal jurisdiction).
Handling contracts and money is Serious Business and so the decision of
how software should respond to double spends should not be made
frivolously.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 10:39 [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Peter Todd
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2015-06-19 15:00 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-19 15:39 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-20 20:04 ` odinn
2015-06-21 2:11 ` Dario Sneidermanis
5 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-06-19 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 13032 bytes --]
This is very disappointing. "scorched earth" replace-by-fee implemented
first at a pool, without updating wallets and merchants, is very
anti-social and increases the ability to perform Finney attacks and
double-spends.
The community is progressing more towards a safer replace-by-fee model, as
indicated by the following code change:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6176
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:39 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
> power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions with
> me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if a
> conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements for
> the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
> previous transaction.
>
>
> I'm a user. What does this mean for me?
> ---------------------------------------
>
> In the short term, very little. Wallet software aimed at average users
> has no ability to reliably detect conditions where an unconfirmed
> transaction may be double-spent by the sender. For example, Schildbach's
> Bitcoin Wallet for Android doesn't even detect double-spends of
> unconfirmed transactions when connected to a RBF or Bitcoin XT nodes
> that propagate them. The least sophisticated double-spend attack
> possibly - simply broadcasting two conflicting transactions at the same
> time - has about 50% probability of success against these wallets.
>
> Additionally, SPV wallets based on bitcoinj can't even detect invalid
> transactions reliably, instead trusting the full node(s) it is connected
> too over the unauthenticated, unencrypted, P2P protocol to do validation
> for them. For instance due to a unfixed bug¹ Bitcoin XT nodes will relay
> double-spends that spend the output of the conflicting transaction. I've
> personally tested this with Schildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android,
> which shows such invalid transactions as standard, unconfirmed,
> transactions.
>
> Users should continue to assume that unconfirmed transactions could be
> trivially reversed by the sender until the first confirmation. In
> general, only the sender can reverse a transaction, so if you do trust
> the sender feel free to assume an unconfirmed transaction will
> eventually confirm. However, if you do not trust the sender and/or have
> no other recourse if they double-spend you, wait until at least the
> first confirmation before assuming the transaction will go through.
>
> In the long term, miner support of full RBF has a number of advantages
> to users, allowing you to more efficiently make transactions, paying
> lower fees. However you'll need a wallet supporting these features; none
> exist yet.
>
>
> I'm a business. What does this mean for me?
> -------------------------------------------
>
> If you use your own node to verify transactions, you probably are in a
> similar situation as average users, so again, this means very little to
> you.
>
> If you use a payment processor/transaction API such as BitPay, Coinbase,
> BlockCypher, etc. you may or may not be accepting unconfirmed
> transactions, and they may or may not be "guaranteed" by your payment
> processor even if double-spent. If like most merchants you're using the
> API such that confirmations are required prior to accepting orders (e.g.
> taking a meaningful loss such as shipping a product if the tx is
> reversed) nothing changes for you. If not I recommend you contact your
> payment processor.
>
>
> I'm a miner. Why should I support replace-by-fee?
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Whether full or first-seen-safe⁵ RBF support (along with
> child-pays-for-parent) is an important step towards a fully functioning
> transaction fee market that doesn't lead to users' transactions getting
> mysteriously "stuck", particularly during network flooding
> events/attacks. A better functioning fee market will help reduce
> pressure to increase the blocksize, particularly from the users creating
> the most valuable transactions.
>
> Full RBF also helps make use of the limited blockchain space more
> efficiently, with up to 90%+ transaction size savings possible in some
> transaction patterns. (e.g. long payment chains⁶) More users in less
> blockchain space will lead to higher overall fees per block.
>
> Finally as we'll discuss below full RBF prevents a number of serious
> threats to the existing level playing field that miners operate in.
>
>
> Why can't we make accepting unconfirmed txs from untrusted people safe?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> For a decentralized wallet, the situation is pretty bleak. These wallets
> only have a handful of connections to the network, with no way of
> knowing if those connections give an accurate view of what transactions
> miners actually know about.
>
> The only serious attempt to fix this problem for decentralized wallets
> that has been actually deployed is Andresen/Harding's double-spend
> relaying, implemented in Bitcoin XT. It relays up to one double-spend
> transaction per double-spent txout, with the intended effect to warn
> recipients. In practice however this functionality makes it easier to
> double-spend rather than harder, by giving an efficient and easy way to
> get double-spends to miners after the fact. Notably my RBF
> implementation even connects to Bitcoin XT nodes, reserving a % of all
> incoming and outgoing connection slots for them.
>
> Additionally Bitcoin XT's double-spend relaying is subject to attacks
> include bandwidth exhaustion, sybil attacks, and Gervais's non-sybil
> interactive attacks⁷ among many others.
>
>
> What about centralised wallets?
> -------------------------------
>
> Here the solutions being deployed, planned, and proposed are harmful,
> and even represent serious threats to Bitcoin's decentralization.
>
>
> Confidence factors
> ------------------
>
> Many services such as BlockCypher² have attempted to predict the
> probability that unconfirmed transactions will be mined, often
> guaranteeing merchants payment³ even in the event of a double-spend. The
> key component of these predictions is to sybil attack the P2P network as
> a whole, connecting to as many nodes as possible to measure transaction
> propagation. Additionally these services connect to pools directly via
> the getblocktemplate protocol, repeatedly downloading via GBT the lists
> of transactions in the to-be-mined blocks to determine what transactions
> miners are attempting to mine.
>
> None of these measures scale, wasting significant network and miner
> resources; in one instance a sybil attack by Chainalysis even completely
> blocked the users of the SPV wallet Breadwallet⁴ from accessing the
> network. These measures also don't work very well, giving double-spend
> attackers incentives to sybil attack miners themselves.
>
>
> Transaction processing contracts with miners
> --------------------------------------------
>
> The next step after measuring propagation fails is to contract with
> miners directly, signing contracts with as much of the hashing power as
> possible to get the transactions they want mined and double-spends
> rejected. The miners/pools would then provide an authenticated API
> endpoint for exclusive use of this service that would allow the service
> to add and remove specific transactions to the mempool on demand.
>
> There's a number of serious problems with this:
>
> 1) Mining contracts can be used to double-spend
>
> ...even when they're being used "honestly".
>
> Suppose Alice is a merchant using CoinPayCypher, who has contracts with
> 75% of the hashing power. Bob, another merchant, meanwhile uses a
> decentralized Bitcoin Core backend for payments to his website.
>
> Mallory wants to double-spend Bob's to buy his expensive products. He
> can do this by creating a transaction, tx1, that pays Alice, followed by
> a second transaction, tx2, that pays Bob. In any circumstance when
> Mallory can convince Bob to accept tx2, but prevent Bob from seeing tx1,
> the chance of Malory's double-spend succeeding becomes ~75% because
> CoinPayCypher's contracts with mining ensure the transaction paying
> Alice will get mined.
>
> Of course, dishonest use and/or compromise makes double-spending
> trivial: Malory can use the API credentials to ask miners to reject
> Bob's payment at any time.
>
>
> 2) They still don't work, without 51% attacking other miners
>
> Even if CoinPayCypher has 75% of the hashing power on contract, that's
> still a potentially 75% chance of being double-spent. The 25% of miners
> who haven't signed contracts have no _decentralized_ way of ensuring
> they don't create blocks with double-spends, let alone at low cost. If
> those miners won't or can't sign contracts with CoinPayCypher the only
> next step available is to reject their blocks entirely.
>
>
> 3) Legal contracts give the advantage to non-anonymous miners in
> Western jurisdictions
>
> Suppose CoinPayCypher is a US company, and you're a miner with 1%
> hashing power located in northern China. The barriers to you succesfully
> negotiating a contract with CoinPayCypher are significant. You don't
> speak the same langauge, you're in a completely different jurisdiction
> so enforcing the legal contract is difficult, and being just 1%,
> CoinPayCypher sees you as insignificant.
>
> Who's going to get the profitable hashing power contracts first, if at
> all? Your English speaking competitors in the west. This is inherently a
> pressure towards centralization of mining.
>
>
> Why isn't this being announced on the bitcoin-security list first?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've had repeated discussions with services vulnerable to double-spends;
> they have been made well aware of the risk they're taking. If they've
> followed my own and others' advice they'll at minimum have constant
> monitoring of the rate of double-spends both on their own services and
> on the P2P network in general.
>
> If you choose to take a risk you should accept the consequences.
>
>
> How do I actually use full RBF?
> -------------------------------
>
> First get the full-RBF patch to v0.10.2:
>
> https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.10.2
>
> The above implementation of RBF includes additional code to find and
> preferentially connect to other RBF nodes, as well as Bitcoin XT nodes.
> Secondly, try out my replace-by-fee-tools at:
>
> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools
>
> You can watch double-spends on the network here:
>
> http://respends.thinlink.com/
>
>
> References
> ----------
>
> 1) "Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel
> variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin Wallet",
> Peter Todd, May 23rd 2015, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07795.html
>
> 2) "From Zero to Hero: Bitcoin Transactions in 8 Seconds",
> June 2nd, 2014, Erik Voorhees,
>
> https://medium.com/blockcypher-blog/from-zero-to-hero-bitcoin-transactions-in-8-seconds-7c9edcb3b734
>
> 3) Coinbase Merchant API, Accessed Jun 19th 2015,
> https://developers.coinbase.com/docs/merchants/callbacks#confirmations
>
> 4) "Chainalysis CEO Denies 'Sybil Attack' on Bitcoin's Network",
> March 14th 2015, Grace Caffyn, Coindesk,
>
> http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-on-bitcoin-network/
>
> 5) "First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee",
> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
>
> 6) "Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%",
> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
>
> 7) "Tampering with the Delivery of Blocks and Transactions in Bitcoin",
> Arthur Gervais and Hubert Ritzdorf and Ghassan O. Karame and Srdjan
> Capkun,
> Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/578, Jun 10th 2015,
> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 0000000000000000070a2bb3b92c20d5c2c971e6e1a7abe55cdbbe6a2dd9a5ad
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 15:20 ` Adrian Macneil
@ 2015-06-19 15:40 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 16:18 ` Adrian Macneil
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Adrian Macneil; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3962 bytes --]
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 08:20:52AM -0700, Adrian Macneil wrote:
> >
> > Unless you're sybil attacking the network and miners, consuming valuable
> > resources and creating systemic risks of failure like we saw with
> > Chainalysis, I don't see how you're getting "very small" double-spend
> > probabilities.
> >
>
> So connecting to many nodes just because we can and it's not technically
> prevented is bad for the network and creating systemic risks of failure,
Well it is actually; that's why myself, Wladimir van der Laan, and
Gregory Maxwell all specifically¹ called Chainalysis's actions a sybil
attack.
The Bitcoin P2P network is resilliant to failure when the chance of any
one node going down is uncorrelated with others. For instance if you
accidentally introduced a bug in your nodes that failed to relay
transactions/blocks properly, you'd simultaneously be disrupting a large
portion of the network all at once.
How many nodes is Coinbase connecting too? What software are they
running? What subnets are they using? In particular, are they all on one
subnet or multiple?
> but relaying harmful double spend transactions just because you can and
> it's not technically prevented, is good for everyone?
You realise that Hearn/Andresen/Harding's double-spend-relaying patch,
included in Bitcoin XT, relays double-spend transactions right? Do you
consider that harmful?
> > You know, you're creating an interesting bit of game theory here: if I'm
> > a miner who doesn't already have a mining contract, why not implement
> > full-RBF to force Coinbase to offer me one? One reason might be because
> > other miners with such a contract - a majority - are going to be asked
> > by Coinbase to reorg you out of the blockchain, but then we have a
> > situation where a single entity has control of the blockchain.
> >
>
> If someone did enter into contracts with miners to mine certain
> transactions, and had a guarantee that the miners would not build on
> previous blocks which included double spends, then they would only need
> contracts with 51% of the network anyway. So it wouldn't really matter if
> you were a small time miner and wanted to run full-RBF.
But of course, you'd never 51% the network right? After all it's not
possible to guarantee that your miner won't mine double-spends, as there
is no single consensus definition of which transaction came first, nor
can there be.
Or do you see things differently? If I'm a small miner should I be
worried my blocks might be rejected by the majority with hashing power
contracts because I'm unable to predict which transactions Coinbase
believes should go in the blockchain?
> > For the good of Bitcoin, and your own company, you'd do well to firmly
> > state that under no condition will Coinbase ever enter into mining
> > contracts.
> >
>
> I don't personally see what good this does for bitcoin. Now you are
> suggesting that we should prevent a 51% attack by using policy and
> promises, rather than a technical solution. How is this any better than us
> relying on existing double spend rules which are based on policy and
> promises?
Well, I think I've shown how dangerous mining contracts can be to the
overall health of the Bitcoin ecosystem; I'm simply asking you to
promise not to make use of this dangerous option regardless of what
happens. Like I said, if for whatever reason the first-seen mempool
behavior proves to be insufficient at preventing double-spends from your
perspective, you did suggest you might use mining contracts to ensure
txs you want mined get mined, over others.
1) "Chainalysis CEO Denies 'Sybil Attack' on Bitcoin's Network",
March 14th 2015, Grace Caffyn, Coindesk,
http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-on-bitcoin-network/
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:44 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Chun Wang
@ 2015-06-19 15:42 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 16:15 ` Peter Todd
2 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-06-19 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:44 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> Having said that... honestly, zeroconf is pretty broken already. Only
> with pretty heroic measures like connecting to a significant fraction of
> the Bitcoin network at once, as well as connecting to getblocktemplate
> supporting miners to figure out what transactions are being mined, are
> services having any hope of avoiding getting ripped off. For the average
> user their wallets do a terrible job of showing whether or not an
>
This is no excuse for further degrading the overall network security.
There are many issues to address in the bitcoin ecosystem. It negatively
impacts users to roll out "scorched earth" replace-by-fee given today's
ecosystem.
Yes, zero conf security is poor. An outright attack on zero conf degrades
user security even more.
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Chun Wang
@ 2015-06-19 15:43 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 19:49 ` Jeffrey Paul
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-06-19 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chun Wang; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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Yes, FSS RBF is far better.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:52 AM, Chun Wang <1240902@gmail•com> wrote:
> Before F2Pool's launch, I performed probably the only successful
> bitcoin double spend in the March 2013 fork without any mining power.
> [ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152348.0 ] I know how bad
> the full RBF is. We are going to switch to FSS RBF in a few hours.
> Sorry.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:33:05AM -0400, Stephen Morse wrote:
> >> It is disappointing that F2Pool would enable full RBF when the safe
> >> alternative, first-seen-safe RBF, is also available, especially since
> the
> >> fees they would gain by supporting full RBF over FSS RBF would likely be
> >> negligible. Did they consider using FSS RBF instead?
> >
> > Specifically the following is what I told them:
> >
> >> We are
> >> interested in the replace-by-fee patch, but I am not following the
> >> development closely, more background info is needed, like what the
> >> difference between standard and zeroconf versions? Thanks.
> >
> > Great!
> >
> > Basically both let you replace one transaction with another that pays a
> > higher fee. First-seen-safe replace-by-fee adds the additional criteria
> > that all outputs of the old transaction still need to be paid by the new
> > transaction, with >= as many Bitcoins. Basically, it makes sure that if
> > someone was paid by tx1, then tx2 will still pay them.
> >
> > I've written about how wallets can use RBF and FSS-RBF to more
> > efficiently use the blockchain on the bitcoin-development mailing list:
> >
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
> >
> > Basically, for the purpose of increasing fees, RBF is something like %50
> > cheaper than CPFP, and FSS-RBF is something like %25 cheaper.
> >
> > In addition, for ease of implementation, my new FSS-RBF has a number of
> > other restrictions. For instance, you can't replace multiple
> > transactions with one, you can't replace a transaction whose outputs
> > have already been spent, you can't replace a transaction with one that
> > spends additional unconfirmed inputs, etc. These restrictions aren't
> > "set in stone", but they do make the code simpler and less likely to
> > have bugs.
> >
> > In comparison my previous standard RBF patch can replace multiple
> > transactions with one, can replace long chains of transactions, etc.
> > It's willing to do more computation before deciding if a transaction
> > should be replaced, with more complex logic; it probably has a higher
> > chance of having a bug or DoS attack.
> >
> > You've probably seen the huge controversy around zeroconf with regard to
> > standard replace-by-fee. While FSS RBF doesn't make zeroconf any safer,
> > it also doesn't make it any more dangerous, so politically with regard
> > to zeroconf it makes no difference. You *can* still use it doublespend
> > by taking advantage of how different transactions are accepted
> > differently, but that's true of *every* change we've ever made to
> > Bitcoin Core - by upgrading to v0.10 from v0.9 you've also "broken"
> > zeroconf in the same way.
> >
> >
> > Having said that... honestly, zeroconf is pretty broken already. Only
> > with pretty heroic measures like connecting to a significant fraction of
> > the Bitcoin network at once, as well as connecting to getblocktemplate
> > supporting miners to figure out what transactions are being mined, are
> > services having any hope of avoiding getting ripped off. For the average
> > user their wallets do a terrible job of showing whether or not an
> > unconfirmed transaction will go through. For example, Schildbach's
> > Bitcoin wallet for Android has no code at all to detect double-spends
> > until they get mined, and I've been able to trick it into showing
> > completely invalid transactions. In fact, currently Bitcoin XT will
> > relay invalid transactions that are doublepsends, and Schildbach's
> > wallet displays them as valid, unconfirmed, payments. It's really no
> > surprise to me that nearly no-one in the Bitcoin ecosystem accepts
> > unconfirmed transactions without some kind of protection that doesn't
> > rely on first-seen-safe mempool behavior. For instance, many ATM's these
> > days know who their customers are due to AML requirements, so while you
> > can deposit Bitcoins and get your funds instantly, the protection for
> > the ATM operator is that they can go to the police if you rip them off;
> > I've spoken to ATM operators who didn't do this who've lost hundreds or
> > even thousands of dollars before giving up on zeroconf.
> >
> > My big worry with zeroconf is a service like Coinbase or Shapeshift
> > coming to rely on it, and then attempting to secure it by gaining
> > control of a majority of hashing power. For instance, if Coinbase had
> > contracts with 80% of the Bitcoin hashing power to guarantee their
> > transactions would get mined, but 20% of the hashing power didn't sign
> > up, then the only way to guarantee their transactions could be for the
> > 80% to not build on blocks containing doublespends by the 20%. There's
> > no way in a decentralized network to come to consensus about what
> > transactions are or are not valid without mining itself, so you could
> > end up in a situation where unless you're part of one of the big pools
> > you can't reliably mine at all because your blocks may get rejected for
> > containing doublespends.
> >
> > One of my goal with standard replace-by-fee is to prevent this scenario
> > by forcing merchants and others to implement ways of accepting zeroconf
> > transactions safely that work in a decentralized environment regardless
> > of what miners do; we have a stronger and safer Bitcoin ecosystem if
> > we're relying on math rather than trust to secure our zeroconf
> > transactions. We're also being more honest to users, who right now often
> > have the very wrong impression that unconfirmed transactions are safe to
> > accept - this does get people ripped off all too often!
> >
> >
> > Anyway, sorry for the rant! FWIW I updated my FSS-RBF patch and am
> > waiting to get some feedback:
> >
> > https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6176
> >
> > Suhas Daftuar did find a pretty serious bug in it, now fixed. I'm
> > working on porting it to v0.10.2, and once that's done I'm going to put
> > up a bounty for anyone who can find a DoS attack in the patch. If no-one
> > claims the bounty after a week or two I think I'll start feeling
> > confident about using it in production.
> >
> >
> > --
> > 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> > 000000000000000003188926be14e5fbe2f8f9c63c9fb8e2ba4b14ab04f1c9ab
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 15:37 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-19 15:53 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 16:36 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:41 ` [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please Gigas Gaming Inc.
2015-06-20 23:16 ` [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Jorge Timón
1 sibling, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: justusranvier @ 2015-06-19 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: bitcoin-development
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
On 2015-06-19 15:37, Eric Lombrozo wrote:
> OK, a few things here:
>
> The Bitcoin network was designed (or should be designed) with the
> requirement that it can withstand deliberate double-spend attacks that
> can come from anywhere at any time…and relaxing this assumption
> without adequately assessing the risk (i.e. I’ve never been hacked
> before so I can assume it’s safe) is extremely dangerous at best and
> just horrid security practice at worst. Your users might not thank you
> for not getting hacked - but they surely will not like it when you DO
> get hacked…and lack a proper recovery plan.
>
> Furthermore, the protocol itself makes no assumptions regarding the
> intentions behind someone signing two conflicting transactions. There
> are many potential use cases where doing so could make a lot of sense.
> Had the protocol been designed along the lines of, say,
> tendermint…where signing multiple conflicting blocks results in loss
> of one’s funds…then the protocol itself disincentivizes the behavior
> without requiring any sort of altruistic, moralistic assumptions. That
> would also mean we’d need a different mechanism for the use cases that
> things like RBF address.
>
> Thirdly, taken to the extreme, the viewpoint of “signing a conflicting
> transaction is fraud and vandalism” means that if for whatever reason
> you attempt to propagate a transaction and nobody mines it for a very
> long time, you’re not entitled to immediately reclaim those funds…they
> must remain in limbo forever.
I'm not talking about changing the protocol - I'm talking about the
business relationships between users of Bitcoin.
I would expect a payment processor to inform the merchants of relevant
double spends that it observes on the network, even if the payment is
actually successful, so that the merchant can decide for themselves
whether or not to pursue it out of band.
Mining is a kind of technical fallback that allows the network to
resolve human misbehavior without human intervention. If nobody ever
attempted to make a fraudulent payment, we wouldn't need mining at all
because the signed transaction itself is proof of intention to pay. That
it exists doesn't suddenly make fraud less fraudulent and mean that
users who are in a position to pursue out of band recourse shouldn't do
so.
I agree that there are valid reasons for replacing transactions in the
mempool, I just think they should be implemented in a way that doesn't
facilitate fraud.
I'd also like to note that "prima facie" doesn't mean "always", it means
that "the default assumption, unless proven otherwise."
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:44 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 15:42 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2015-06-19 16:15 ` Peter Todd
2 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stephen Morse; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:44:08AM -0400, Peter Todd wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:33:05AM -0400, Stephen Morse wrote:
> > It is disappointing that F2Pool would enable full RBF when the safe
> > alternative, first-seen-safe RBF, is also available, especially since the
> > fees they would gain by supporting full RBF over FSS RBF would likely be
> > negligible. Did they consider using FSS RBF instead?
>
> Specifically the following is what I told them:
Incidentally, because someone asked that message was sent two weeks ago.
Also, a shout-out to Marshal Long of FinalHash for his help with
(FSS)-RBF deployment and for getting F2Pool and myself in touch, as well
as his work in talking getting pools on board with BIP66.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000000bb4abd88c6b023e9f19a1c1deaac120467279c330a803cf
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 15:40 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 16:18 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 16:37 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 20:39 ` Matt Whitlock
0 siblings, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Adrian Macneil @ 2015-06-19 16:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3800 bytes --]
>
> > So connecting to many nodes just because we can and it's not technically
> > prevented is bad for the network and creating systemic risks of failure,
>
> Well it is actually; that's why myself, Wladimir van der Laan, and
> Gregory Maxwell all specifically¹ called Chainalysis's actions a sybil
> attack.
>
> The Bitcoin P2P network is resilliant to failure when the chance of any
> one node going down is uncorrelated with others. For instance if you
> accidentally introduced a bug in your nodes that failed to relay
> transactions/blocks properly, you'd simultaneously be disrupting a large
> portion of the network all at once.
>
This is exactly what your RBF patch is doing. By your own logic, nodes on
the network should be allowed to relay (or not relay) whatever they wish.
> How many nodes is Coinbase connecting too? What software are they
> running? What subnets are they using? In particular, are they all on one
> subnet or multiple?
>
We're running about a dozen nodes running regular Bitcoin Core in various
subnets. We aren't doing anything particularly out of the ordinary here.
Nothing that would fall under your definition of a sybil attack or harmful
to the network.
> > You know, you're creating an interesting bit of game theory here: if I'm
> > > a miner who doesn't already have a mining contract, why not implement
> > > full-RBF to force Coinbase to offer me one? One reason might be because
> > > other miners with such a contract - a majority - are going to be asked
> > > by Coinbase to reorg you out of the blockchain, but then we have a
> > > situation where a single entity has control of the blockchain.
> > >
> >
> > If someone did enter into contracts with miners to mine certain
> > transactions, and had a guarantee that the miners would not build on
> > previous blocks which included double spends, then they would only need
> > contracts with 51% of the network anyway. So it wouldn't really matter if
> > you were a small time miner and wanted to run full-RBF.
>
> But of course, you'd never 51% the network right? After all it's not
> possible to guarantee that your miner won't mine double-spends, as there
> is no single consensus definition of which transaction came first, nor
> can there be.
>
> Or do you see things differently? If I'm a small miner should I be
> worried my blocks might be rejected by the majority with hashing power
> contracts because I'm unable to predict which transactions Coinbase
> believes should go in the blockchain?
>
You seem so concerned that we are actively trying to harm or control the
network. We're simply trying to drive bitcoin adoption by making it easy
for people to spend their bitcoin with merchants online. The problems we
face are no different from other merchant processors, or small independent
merchants accepting online or point-of-sale payments.
We've historically had relatively little interest in what miners were doing
(until RBF came out) - for the most part it didn't affect our business.
However, most large merchants would be simply uninterested in accepting
bitcoin if we forced their customers to wait 10-60 minutes for their
payments to confirm. Many have inventory management systems which can not
even place items on hold that long.
If full-RBF sees any significant adoption by miners, then it will actively
harm bitcoin adoption by reducing or removing the ability for online or POS
merchants to accept bitcoin payments at all. I do not see a single benefit
to running full-RBF.
FWIW, I'm fine with the first-seen-safe RBF, that seems like a sensible
addition and a good way to allow fees to be added or increased on existing
transactions, without harming existing applications of bitcoin.
Adrian
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 15:53 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-19 16:36 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
` (2 more replies)
2015-06-19 16:41 ` [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please Gigas Gaming Inc.
1 sibling, 3 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Matt Whitlock @ 2015-06-19 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: justusranvier; +Cc: bitcoin-development
On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 3:53 pm, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
> I'd also like to note that "prima facie" doesn't mean "always", it means
> that "the default assumption, unless proven otherwise."
Why would you automatically assume fraud by default? Shouldn't the null hypothesis be the default? Without any information one way or another, you ought to make *no assumption* about the fraudulence or non-fraudulence of any given double-spend.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:18 ` Adrian Macneil
@ 2015-06-19 16:37 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 20:39 ` Matt Whitlock
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Adrian Macneil; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3767 bytes --]
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:18:54AM -0700, Adrian Macneil wrote:
> >
> > > So connecting to many nodes just because we can and it's not technically
> > > prevented is bad for the network and creating systemic risks of failure,
> >
> > Well it is actually; that's why myself, Wladimir van der Laan, and
> > Gregory Maxwell all specifically¹ called Chainalysis's actions a sybil
> > attack.
> >
> > The Bitcoin P2P network is resilliant to failure when the chance of any
> > one node going down is uncorrelated with others. For instance if you
> > accidentally introduced a bug in your nodes that failed to relay
> > transactions/blocks properly, you'd simultaneously be disrupting a large
> > portion of the network all at once.
> >
>
> This is exactly what your RBF patch is doing. By your own logic, nodes on
> the network should be allowed to relay (or not relay) whatever they wish.
Ah, seems you misunderstand the problem.
By properly we're concerned that things do get relayed, not that they do
not. In particularl with blocks a fairly to relay valid blocks will
quickly lead to a loss of consensus.
> > How many nodes is Coinbase connecting too? What software are they
> > running? What subnets are they using? In particular, are they all on one
> > subnet or multiple?
> >
>
> We're running about a dozen nodes running regular Bitcoin Core in various
> subnets. We aren't doing anything particularly out of the ordinary here.
> Nothing that would fall under your definition of a sybil attack or harmful
> to the network.
Right, so those dozen nodes, how many outgoing connections are they
making?
> > But of course, you'd never 51% the network right? After all it's not
> > possible to guarantee that your miner won't mine double-spends, as there
> > is no single consensus definition of which transaction came first, nor
> > can there be.
> >
> > Or do you see things differently? If I'm a small miner should I be
> > worried my blocks might be rejected by the majority with hashing power
> > contracts because I'm unable to predict which transactions Coinbase
> > believes should go in the blockchain?
> >
>
> You seem so concerned that we are actively trying to harm or control the
> network. We're simply trying to drive bitcoin adoption by making it easy
> for people to spend their bitcoin with merchants online. The problems we
> face are no different from other merchant processors, or small independent
> merchants accepting online or point-of-sale payments.
>
> We've historically had relatively little interest in what miners were doing
> (until RBF came out) - for the most part it didn't affect our business.
> However, most large merchants would be simply uninterested in accepting
> bitcoin if we forced their customers to wait 10-60 minutes for their
> payments to confirm. Many have inventory management systems which can not
> even place items on hold that long.
While your goals may be reasonable, again, the question is how are you
going to achieve them? Do you accept that you may be in a position where
you can't guarantee confirmations? Again, what's your plan to deal with
this? For instance, I know Coinbase is contractually obliged to accept
zeroconf payments with at least some of your customers - how strong are
those agreements?
What we're worried about is your plan appears to include nothing
concrete beyond the possibility of getting contracts with hashing power,
maybe even just a majority of hashing power. This is something that
should concern everyone in the Bitcoin ecosystem, and it'd help if you
clearly stated what your intentions are.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000001128683847671e0ca022f9c74df90a3dc718545379101b72
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please
2015-06-19 15:53 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 16:36 ` Matt Whitlock
@ 2015-06-19 16:41 ` Gigas Gaming Inc.
2015-06-19 18:34 ` Jameson Lopp
1 sibling, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Gigas Gaming Inc. @ 2015-06-19 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
This is no longer a mailing list, this is a chatroom.
Please remove this email from your list, you are now interfering with
official company business.
Thanks
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:36 ` Matt Whitlock
@ 2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 16:46 ` Matt Whitlock
` (4 more replies)
2015-06-19 16:44 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 16:50 ` Milly Bitcoin
2 siblings, 5 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-19 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Matt Whitlock; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, justusranvier
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 802 bytes --]
If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie” assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay…
> On Jun 19, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Matt Whitlock <bip@mattwhitlock•name> wrote:
>
> On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 3:53 pm, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
>> I'd also like to note that "prima facie" doesn't mean "always", it means
>> that "the default assumption, unless proven otherwise."
>
> Why would you automatically assume fraud by default? Shouldn't the null hypothesis be the default? Without any information one way or another, you ought to make *no assumption* about the fraudulence or non-fraudulence of any given double-spend.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:36 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-19 16:44 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 17:40 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 16:50 ` Milly Bitcoin
2 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: justusranvier @ 2015-06-19 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Matt Whitlock; +Cc: bitcoin-development
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
On 2015-06-19 16:36, Matt Whitlock wrote:
> On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 3:53 pm, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
>> I'd also like to note that "prima facie" doesn't mean "always", it
>> means
>> that "the default assumption, unless proven otherwise."
>
> Why would you automatically assume fraud by default? Shouldn't the
> null hypothesis be the default? Without any information one way or
> another, you ought to make *no assumption* about the fraudulence or
> non-fraudulence of any given double-spend.
If we have ECDSA proof that an entity intentionally made and publicly
announced incompatible promises regarding the disposition of particular
Bitcoins under their control, then why shouldn't that be assumed to be a
fraud attempt unless shown otherwise?
There are ways of achiving transaction fee adjustment after broadcast
that do not present the appearance of, or opportunity for, fraud. If
those options are available and the user chooses not to use them in
favor of the option that does, that makes bad intentions even more
probable.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-19 16:46 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:53 ` Peter Todd
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Matt Whitlock @ 2015-06-19 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, justusranvier
Even if you could prove "intent to pay," this would be almost useless. I can sincerely intend to do a lot of things, but this doesn't mean I'll ever actually do them.
I am in favor of more zero-confirmation transactions being reversed / double-spent. Bitcoin users largely still believe that accepting zero-conf transactions is safe, and evidently it's going to take some harsh lessons in reality to correct this belief.
On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 9:42 am, Eric Lombrozo wrote:
> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie” assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay…
>
>
> > On Jun 19, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Matt Whitlock <bip@mattwhitlock•name> wrote:
> >
> > On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 3:53 pm, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
> >> I'd also like to note that "prima facie" doesn't mean "always", it means
> >> that "the default assumption, unless proven otherwise."
> >
> > Why would you automatically assume fraud by default? Shouldn't the null hypothesis be the default? Without any information one way or another, you ought to make *no assumption* about the fraudulence or non-fraudulence of any given double-spend.
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:36 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 16:44 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-19 16:50 ` Milly Bitcoin
2 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Milly Bitcoin @ 2015-06-19 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
"prima facie" generally means that in a court case the burden of proof
shifts from one party to another. For instance, if you have a federal
trademark registration that is prima fascia evidence of those rights
even though they could still be challenged. To say a prosecutor would
have prima fascia evidence of a crime because double spend was detected
is quite a stretch.
On 6/19/2015 12:36 PM, Matt Whitlock wrote:
> On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 3:53 pm, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
>> I'd also like to note that "prima facie" doesn't mean "always", it means
>> that "the default assumption, unless proven otherwise."
> Why would you automatically assume fraud by default? Shouldn't the null hypothesis be the default? Without any information one way or another, you ought to make *no assumption* about the fraudulence or non-fraudulence of any given double-spend.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 16:46 ` Matt Whitlock
@ 2015-06-19 16:53 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 16:54 ` justusranvier
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-06-19 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, justusranvier
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On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:42:33AM -0700, Eric Lombrozo wrote:
> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie” assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay…
Indeed.
For instance, one of the ideas behind my Proofchains work is that you
could hind all details of a smartcontract-whatchamacallit protocol
behind single-use-seals in a consensus blockchain. Closing those seals,
that is spending the appropriate txouts, represents things in the
protocol which are absolutely unobservable to anyone without the data
behind those hashes, an extreme version of the above.
Incidentally, some patent prior-art exposure:
https://github.com/proofchains/python-proofchains
:)
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000000a203bd78c8536399f67275064107def6c7afea29c4e3a7b
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 16:46 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:53 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 16:54 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 17:00 ` Tier Nolan
2015-06-20 23:20 ` Jorge Timón
4 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: justusranvier @ 2015-06-19 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
On 2015-06-19 16:42, Eric Lombrozo wrote:
> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should
> explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie”
> assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence
> of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay…
Again, I'm not talking about any changes to the protocol. The mining
mechanism in the Bitcoin protocol is the fallback method of resolving
fraud that isn't prevented or resolved via other mechanisms.
There are plenty of other ways economic actors resolve their
disagreements other than blockchain adjudication. Sometimes when both
parties are identified and reside in the same legal jurisdiction,
contract violations and fraud can be adjudicated in courts. In some
situations, the parties involved may have access to private dispute
resolution techniques.
Sometimes the stakeholders in the network act to preserve the long term
value of their investments, even if it means passing short-term profits.
The more of those stakeholders there are in Bitcoin, the more effective
it is to make the case for choices that are long-term beneficial.
The degree to which anyone should rely on a signed transaction as
assurance of future payment is not a question with a universal answer.
It depends on the particular details of the situation, and the parties
involved, and their own risk tolerances and time preferences. There's no
right answer for everyone, which is why "let's break zeroconf because
*I* don't think it's safe enough" is a kind of vandalism.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2015-06-19 16:54 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-19 17:00 ` Tier Nolan
2015-06-20 23:20 ` Jorge Timón
4 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Tier Nolan @ 2015-06-19 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should
> explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie” assumptions.
> Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence of a signed
> transaction as proof of intent to pay…
>
Outputs could be marked as "locked". If you are performing a zero
confirmation spend, then the recipient could insist that you flag the
output for them as non-reducible.
This reduces privacy since it would be obvious which output was change. If
both are locked, then the fee can't be increased.
This would be information that miners could ignore though.
Creating the right incentives is hard though. Blocks could be
"discouraged" if they have a double spend that is known about for a while
which reduces payment for a locked output.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:44 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-19 17:40 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 17:48 ` justusranvier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-06-19 17:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Justus Ranvier; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 543 bytes --]
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 9:44 AM, <justusranvier@riseup•net> wrote:
> If we have ECDSA proof that an entity intentionally made and publicly
> announced incompatible promises regarding the disposition of particular
> Bitcoins under their control, then why shouldn't that be assumed to be a
> fraud attempt unless shown otherwise?
>
Making multiple incompatible versions of a spend is a -requirement- of
various refund contract protocols.
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 17:40 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2015-06-19 17:48 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 17:50 ` Jeff Garzik
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: justusranvier @ 2015-06-19 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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On 2015-06-19 17:40, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> Making multiple incompatible versions of a spend is a -requirement- of
> various refund contract protocols.
Is there not a dedicated field in a transaction (nSequence) for express
purpose of indicating when a protocol like this is in use?
As far as I know, transactions which are using those protocols can be
easily differentiated from those that aren't (which is probably good
from a payment assurance standpoint and bad from a privacy standpoint).
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* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 17:48 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-19 17:50 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 18:00 ` justusranvier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-06-19 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Justus Ranvier; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 626 bytes --]
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 10:48 AM, <justusranvier@riseup•net> wrote:
> On 2015-06-19 17:40, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>
>> Making multiple incompatible versions of a spend is a -requirement- of
>> various refund contract protocols.
>>
>
> Is there not a dedicated field in a transaction (nSequence) for express
> purpose of indicating when a protocol like this is in use?
>
No. You cannot know which is the 'right' or wrong transaction. One tx has
obvious nSequence adjustments, the other - the refund transaction - may not.
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 17:50 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2015-06-19 18:00 ` justusranvier
0 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: justusranvier @ 2015-06-19 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
On 2015-06-19 17:50, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> No. You cannot know which is the 'right' or wrong transaction. One tx
> has
> obvious nSequence adjustments, the other - the refund transaction - may
> not.
I'm still not seeing a case where a node could see conflicting
transactions on the network as part of a micropayment channel, and not
know it was observing the resolution of a channel rather than a likely
retail double spend.
If both transactions have been broadcast, then one of the conflicting
members of the set will have nSequence adjustments.
Maybe a clever griefer could try to make their retail double spend look
like a micropayment channel, but it seems like they'd be missing the
other identifiable markers of that protocol.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please
2015-06-19 16:41 ` [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please Gigas Gaming Inc.
@ 2015-06-19 18:34 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-06-19 19:55 ` John Bodeen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jameson Lopp @ 2015-06-19 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gigas Gaming Inc.; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 680 bytes --]
You are free to remove yourself; the URL is at the bottom of every email:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Gigas Gaming Inc. <
corporate@gigasgaming•com> wrote:
> This is no longer a mailing list, this is a chatroom.
> Please remove this email from your list, you are now interfering with
> official company business.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 15:43 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2015-06-19 19:49 ` Jeffrey Paul
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jeffrey Paul @ 2015-06-19 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chun Wang; +Cc: bitcoin-development
It seems to me that FSS RBF must enforce identical OP_RETURN data on the output scripts as the first seen transaction, as well, to safely continue support for various other applications built atop the blockchain.
Is there a canonical implementation of FSS RBF around somewhere I can review?
Best,
-jp
--
Jeffrey Paul +1 (312) 361-0355
5539 AD00 DE4C 42F3 AFE1 1575 0524 43F4 DF2A 55C2
> On 19.06.2015, at 15:52, Chun Wang <1240902@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> Before F2Pool's launch, I performed probably the only successful
> bitcoin double spend in the March 2013 fork without any mining power.
> [ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152348.0 ] I know how bad
> the full RBF is. We are going to switch to FSS RBF in a few hours.
> Sorry.
>
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 09:33:05AM -0400, Stephen Morse wrote:
>>> It is disappointing that F2Pool would enable full RBF when the safe
>>> alternative, first-seen-safe RBF, is also available, especially since the
>>> fees they would gain by supporting full RBF over FSS RBF would likely be
>>> negligible. Did they consider using FSS RBF instead?
>>
>> Specifically the following is what I told them:
>>
>>> We are
>>> interested in the replace-by-fee patch, but I am not following the
>>> development closely, more background info is needed, like what the
>>> difference between standard and zeroconf versions? Thanks.
>>
>> Great!
>>
>> Basically both let you replace one transaction with another that pays a
>> higher fee. First-seen-safe replace-by-fee adds the additional criteria
>> that all outputs of the old transaction still need to be paid by the new
>> transaction, with >= as many Bitcoins. Basically, it makes sure that if
>> someone was paid by tx1, then tx2 will still pay them.
>>
>> I've written about how wallets can use RBF and FSS-RBF to more
>> efficiently use the blockchain on the bitcoin-development mailing list:
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
>>
>> Basically, for the purpose of increasing fees, RBF is something like %50
>> cheaper than CPFP, and FSS-RBF is something like %25 cheaper.
>>
>> In addition, for ease of implementation, my new FSS-RBF has a number of
>> other restrictions. For instance, you can't replace multiple
>> transactions with one, you can't replace a transaction whose outputs
>> have already been spent, you can't replace a transaction with one that
>> spends additional unconfirmed inputs, etc. These restrictions aren't
>> "set in stone", but they do make the code simpler and less likely to
>> have bugs.
>>
>> In comparison my previous standard RBF patch can replace multiple
>> transactions with one, can replace long chains of transactions, etc.
>> It's willing to do more computation before deciding if a transaction
>> should be replaced, with more complex logic; it probably has a higher
>> chance of having a bug or DoS attack.
>>
>> You've probably seen the huge controversy around zeroconf with regard to
>> standard replace-by-fee. While FSS RBF doesn't make zeroconf any safer,
>> it also doesn't make it any more dangerous, so politically with regard
>> to zeroconf it makes no difference. You *can* still use it doublespend
>> by taking advantage of how different transactions are accepted
>> differently, but that's true of *every* change we've ever made to
>> Bitcoin Core - by upgrading to v0.10 from v0.9 you've also "broken"
>> zeroconf in the same way.
>>
>>
>> Having said that... honestly, zeroconf is pretty broken already. Only
>> with pretty heroic measures like connecting to a significant fraction of
>> the Bitcoin network at once, as well as connecting to getblocktemplate
>> supporting miners to figure out what transactions are being mined, are
>> services having any hope of avoiding getting ripped off. For the average
>> user their wallets do a terrible job of showing whether or not an
>> unconfirmed transaction will go through. For example, Schildbach's
>> Bitcoin wallet for Android has no code at all to detect double-spends
>> until they get mined, and I've been able to trick it into showing
>> completely invalid transactions. In fact, currently Bitcoin XT will
>> relay invalid transactions that are doublepsends, and Schildbach's
>> wallet displays them as valid, unconfirmed, payments. It's really no
>> surprise to me that nearly no-one in the Bitcoin ecosystem accepts
>> unconfirmed transactions without some kind of protection that doesn't
>> rely on first-seen-safe mempool behavior. For instance, many ATM's these
>> days know who their customers are due to AML requirements, so while you
>> can deposit Bitcoins and get your funds instantly, the protection for
>> the ATM operator is that they can go to the police if you rip them off;
>> I've spoken to ATM operators who didn't do this who've lost hundreds or
>> even thousands of dollars before giving up on zeroconf.
>>
>> My big worry with zeroconf is a service like Coinbase or Shapeshift
>> coming to rely on it, and then attempting to secure it by gaining
>> control of a majority of hashing power. For instance, if Coinbase had
>> contracts with 80% of the Bitcoin hashing power to guarantee their
>> transactions would get mined, but 20% of the hashing power didn't sign
>> up, then the only way to guarantee their transactions could be for the
>> 80% to not build on blocks containing doublespends by the 20%. There's
>> no way in a decentralized network to come to consensus about what
>> transactions are or are not valid without mining itself, so you could
>> end up in a situation where unless you're part of one of the big pools
>> you can't reliably mine at all because your blocks may get rejected for
>> containing doublespends.
>>
>> One of my goal with standard replace-by-fee is to prevent this scenario
>> by forcing merchants and others to implement ways of accepting zeroconf
>> transactions safely that work in a decentralized environment regardless
>> of what miners do; we have a stronger and safer Bitcoin ecosystem if
>> we're relying on math rather than trust to secure our zeroconf
>> transactions. We're also being more honest to users, who right now often
>> have the very wrong impression that unconfirmed transactions are safe to
>> accept - this does get people ripped off all too often!
>>
>>
>> Anyway, sorry for the rant! FWIW I updated my FSS-RBF patch and am
>> waiting to get some feedback:
>>
>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6176
>>
>> Suhas Daftuar did find a pretty serious bug in it, now fixed. I'm
>> working on porting it to v0.10.2, and once that's done I'm going to put
>> up a bounty for anyone who can find a DoS attack in the patch. If no-one
>> claims the bounty after a week or two I think I'll start feeling
>> confident about using it in production.
>>
>>
>> --
>> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>> 000000000000000003188926be14e5fbe2f8f9c63c9fb8e2ba4b14ab04f1c9ab
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please
2015-06-19 18:34 ` Jameson Lopp
@ 2015-06-19 19:55 ` John Bodeen
2015-06-19 20:01 ` Brian Hoffman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: John Bodeen @ 2015-06-19 19:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: corporate; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1827 bytes --]
from their website, humorous bits highlighted
> *October 14, 2014 *In latest Hiatus new, the company has taken on yet
> another crazy project but this one is going to benefit the world in which
> it entered not long ago. The company had done a lot of research on crypto
> currencies, built one for itself, for testing purposes (GigasCorpCoin) and
> found the underlaying problem of Bitcoin and was poised to solve it.
> Company execs decided it would be a good investment to launch its own coin
> and back it itself.
> The company is currently in motion and will hire an expert to do some of
> the coding by October 14, 2015. Company President refused to be
> interviewed due to too much work that needs done for this secret and
> upcoming project.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail•com>
wrote:
> You are free to remove yourself; the URL is at the bottom of every email:
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Gigas Gaming Inc. <
> corporate@gigasgaming•com> wrote:
>
>> This is no longer a mailing list, this is a chatroom.
>> Please remove this email from your list, you are now interfering with
>> official company business.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please
2015-06-19 19:55 ` John Bodeen
@ 2015-06-19 20:01 ` Brian Hoffman
2015-06-19 20:27 ` Jameson Lopp
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Brian Hoffman @ 2015-06-19 20:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: John Bodeen; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2674 bytes --]
damn he was just on the verge of solving the underlaying problem with Bitcoin and you interrupted his focus.
> On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:55 PM, John Bodeen <john-bodeen@uiowa•edu> wrote:
>
> from their website, humorous bits highlighted
>
> October 14, 2014
> In latest Hiatus new, the company has taken on yet another crazy project but this one is going to benefit the world in which it entered not long ago. The company had done a lot of research on crypto currencies, built one for itself, for testing purposes (GigasCorpCoin) and found the underlaying problem of Bitcoin and was poised to solve it. Company execs decided it would be a good investment to launch its own coin and back it itself.
> The company is currently in motion and will hire an expert to do some of the coding by October 14, 2015. Company President refused to be interviewed due to too much work that needs done for this secret and upcoming project.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail•com <mailto:jameson.lopp@gmail•com>> wrote:
> You are free to remove yourself; the URL is at the bottom of every email: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Gigas Gaming Inc. <corporate@gigasgaming•com <mailto:corporate@gigasgaming•com>> wrote:
> This is no longer a mailing list, this is a chatroom.
> Please remove this email from your list, you are now interfering with
> official company business.
>
> Thanks
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please
2015-06-19 20:01 ` Brian Hoffman
@ 2015-06-19 20:27 ` Jameson Lopp
0 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jameson Lopp @ 2015-06-19 20:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Brian Hoffman; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2869 bytes --]
You're only strengthening Gigas' point about the mailing list by posting
derisive emails. Take your nonconstructive comments elsewhere.
- Jameson
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Brian Hoffman <brianchoffman@gmail•com>
wrote:
> damn he was just on the verge of solving the underlaying problem with
> Bitcoin and you interrupted his focus.
>
> On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:55 PM, John Bodeen <john-bodeen@uiowa•edu> wrote:
>
> from their website, humorous bits highlighted
>
>
>> *October 14, 2014 *In latest Hiatus new, the company has taken on yet
>> another crazy project but this one is going to benefit the world in which
>> it entered not long ago. The company had done a lot of research on crypto
>> currencies, built one for itself, for testing purposes (GigasCorpCoin) and
>> found the underlaying problem of Bitcoin and was poised to solve it.
>> Company execs decided it would be a good investment to launch its own coin
>> and back it itself.
>> The company is currently in motion and will hire an expert to do some of
>> the coding by October 14, 2015. Company President refused to be
>> interviewed due to too much work that needs done for this secret and
>> upcoming project.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>
>> You are free to remove yourself; the URL is at the bottom of every email:
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Gigas Gaming Inc. <
>> corporate@gigasgaming•com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is no longer a mailing list, this is a chatroom.
>>> Please remove this email from your list, you are now interfering with
>>> official company business.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:18 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 16:37 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-06-19 20:39 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 21:05 ` Frank Flores
2015-06-20 0:47 ` Andreas Petersson
1 sibling, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Matt Whitlock @ 2015-06-19 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 9:18 am, Adrian Macneil wrote:
> If full-RBF sees any significant adoption by miners, then it will actively
> harm bitcoin adoption by reducing or removing the ability for online or POS
> merchants to accept bitcoin payments at all.
Retail POS merchants probably should not be accepting vanilla Bitcoin payments, as Bitcoin alone does not (and cannot) guarantee the irreversibility of a transaction until it has been buried several blocks deep in the chain. Retail merchants should be requiring a co-signature from a mutually trusted co-signer that vows never to sign a double-spend. The reason we don't yet see such technology permeating the ecosystem is because, to date, zero-conf transactions have been irreversible "enough," but this has only been a happy accident; it was never promised, and it should not be relied upon.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 20:39 ` Matt Whitlock
@ 2015-06-19 21:05 ` Frank Flores
2015-06-19 21:15 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-20 0:47 ` Andreas Petersson
1 sibling, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Frank Flores @ 2015-06-19 21:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1621 bytes --]
Has anyone from Mycelium weighed in on this? Is their doublespend attack
detection broken with this kind of irresponsible behavior?
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Matt Whitlock <bip@mattwhitlock•name>
wrote:
> On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 9:18 am, Adrian Macneil wrote:
> > If full-RBF sees any significant adoption by miners, then it will
> actively
> > harm bitcoin adoption by reducing or removing the ability for online or
> POS
> > merchants to accept bitcoin payments at all.
>
> Retail POS merchants probably should not be accepting vanilla Bitcoin
> payments, as Bitcoin alone does not (and cannot) guarantee the
> irreversibility of a transaction until it has been buried several blocks
> deep in the chain. Retail merchants should be requiring a co-signature from
> a mutually trusted co-signer that vows never to sign a double-spend. The
> reason we don't yet see such technology permeating the ecosystem is
> because, to date, zero-conf transactions have been irreversible "enough,"
> but this has only been a happy accident; it was never promised, and it
> should not be relied upon.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
--
*MONEY IS OVER!*
IF YOU WANT IT
<http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/>
=====================================================
The causes of my servitude can be traced to the tyranny of money.
-Serj Tankian
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 21:05 ` Frank Flores
@ 2015-06-19 21:15 ` Jeff Garzik
0 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-06-19 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Frank Flores; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2318 bytes --]
Double spend detection is by definition best-effort.
The purpose of bitcoin is to provide security (confirmations) to otherwise
insecure, possibly double spent transactions.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Frank Flores <frankf44@gmail•com> wrote:
> Has anyone from Mycelium weighed in on this? Is their doublespend attack
> detection broken with this kind of irresponsible behavior?
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Matt Whitlock <bip@mattwhitlock•name>
> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, 19 June 2015, at 9:18 am, Adrian Macneil wrote:
>> > If full-RBF sees any significant adoption by miners, then it will
>> actively
>> > harm bitcoin adoption by reducing or removing the ability for online or
>> POS
>> > merchants to accept bitcoin payments at all.
>>
>> Retail POS merchants probably should not be accepting vanilla Bitcoin
>> payments, as Bitcoin alone does not (and cannot) guarantee the
>> irreversibility of a transaction until it has been buried several blocks
>> deep in the chain. Retail merchants should be requiring a co-signature from
>> a mutually trusted co-signer that vows never to sign a double-spend. The
>> reason we don't yet see such technology permeating the ecosystem is
>> because, to date, zero-conf transactions have been irreversible "enough,"
>> but this has only been a happy accident; it was never promised, and it
>> should not be relied upon.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *MONEY IS OVER!*
> IF YOU WANT IT
> <http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/>
> =====================================================
> The causes of my servitude can be traced to the tyranny of money.
> -Serj Tankian
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 20:39 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 21:05 ` Frank Flores
@ 2015-06-20 0:47 ` Andreas Petersson
2015-06-20 1:09 ` Mark Friedenbach
1 sibling, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Petersson @ 2015-06-20 0:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1314 bytes --]
I have some experience here. If you are seriously suggesting these
measures, you might as well kill retail transactions altogether.
In practice, if a retail place starts to accept bitcoin they have a
similar situation as with cash, only that the fraud potential is much
lower. (e.g. 100-dollar bill for a sandwich might turn out fake later)
and the fraud frequency is also much lower.
0-conf concerns were never a problem in practice. except for 2-way atms
i have never heard of a problem that was caused by double spends.
while adding these measures is generally positive, requiring them means
excluding 99.9% of the potential users. so you might as well not do it.
RBF as implemented by F2Pool just flat out lowers Bitcoins utility
value. So it's a bad thing.
for any online or automated system, waiting for a handful of
confirmations was always recommended practice.
Am 19.06.2015 um 22:39 schrieb Matt Whitlock:
> Retail POS merchants probably should not be accepting vanilla Bitcoin
> payments, as Bitcoin alone does not (and cannot) guarantee the
> irreversibility of a transaction until it has been buried several
> blocks deep in the chain. Retail merchants should be requiring a
> co-signature from a mutually trusted co-signer that vows never to sign
> a double-spend.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 0:47 ` Andreas Petersson
@ 2015-06-20 1:09 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-06-20 1:23 ` Aaron Voisine
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2015-06-20 1:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andreas Petersson; +Cc: Bitcoin Development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1913 bytes --]
What retail needs is escrowed microchannel hubs (what lightning provides,
for example), which enable untrusted instant payments. Not reliance on
single-signer zeroconf transactions that can never be made safe.
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Andreas Petersson <andreas@petersson•at>
wrote:
> I have some experience here. If you are seriously suggesting these
> measures, you might as well kill retail transactions altogether.
>
> In practice, if a retail place starts to accept bitcoin they have a
> similar situation as with cash, only that the fraud potential is much
> lower. (e.g. 100-dollar bill for a sandwich might turn out fake later)
> and the fraud frequency is also much lower.
>
> 0-conf concerns were never a problem in practice. except for 2-way atms
> i have never heard of a problem that was caused by double spends.
> while adding these measures is generally positive, requiring them means
> excluding 99.9% of the potential users. so you might as well not do it.
>
> RBF as implemented by F2Pool just flat out lowers Bitcoins utility
> value. So it's a bad thing.
>
> for any online or automated system, waiting for a handful of
> confirmations was always recommended practice.
>
> Am 19.06.2015 um 22:39 schrieb Matt Whitlock:
> > Retail POS merchants probably should not be accepting vanilla Bitcoin
> > payments, as Bitcoin alone does not (and cannot) guarantee the
> > irreversibility of a transaction until it has been buried several
> > blocks deep in the chain. Retail merchants should be requiring a
> > co-signature from a mutually trusted co-signer that vows never to sign
> > a double-spend.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 1:09 ` Mark Friedenbach
@ 2015-06-20 1:23 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-06-20 3:07 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 3:48 ` Luke Dashjr
0 siblings, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Aaron Voisine @ 2015-06-20 1:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mark Friedenbach; +Cc: Bitcoin Development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2798 bytes --]
> What retail needs is escrowed microchannel hubs (what lightning provides,
for example), which enable untrusted instant payments. Not reliance on
single-signer zeroconf transactions that can never be made safe.
They don't need to be made cryptographically safe, they just have to be
safer than, for instance, credit card payments that can be charged back. As
long as it's reasonably good in practice, that's fine.
Aaron Voisine
co-founder and CEO
breadwallet.com
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach•org>
wrote:
> What retail needs is escrowed microchannel hubs (what lightning provides,
> for example), which enable untrusted instant payments. Not reliance on
> single-signer zeroconf transactions that can never be made safe.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Andreas Petersson <andreas@petersson•at>
> wrote:
>
>> I have some experience here. If you are seriously suggesting these
>> measures, you might as well kill retail transactions altogether.
>>
>> In practice, if a retail place starts to accept bitcoin they have a
>> similar situation as with cash, only that the fraud potential is much
>> lower. (e.g. 100-dollar bill for a sandwich might turn out fake later)
>> and the fraud frequency is also much lower.
>>
>> 0-conf concerns were never a problem in practice. except for 2-way atms
>> i have never heard of a problem that was caused by double spends.
>> while adding these measures is generally positive, requiring them means
>> excluding 99.9% of the potential users. so you might as well not do it.
>>
>> RBF as implemented by F2Pool just flat out lowers Bitcoins utility
>> value. So it's a bad thing.
>>
>> for any online or automated system, waiting for a handful of
>> confirmations was always recommended practice.
>>
>> Am 19.06.2015 um 22:39 schrieb Matt Whitlock:
>> > Retail POS merchants probably should not be accepting vanilla Bitcoin
>> > payments, as Bitcoin alone does not (and cannot) guarantee the
>> > irreversibility of a transaction until it has been buried several
>> > blocks deep in the chain. Retail merchants should be requiring a
>> > co-signature from a mutually trusted co-signer that vows never to sign
>> > a double-spend.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 1:23 ` Aaron Voisine
@ 2015-06-20 3:07 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 3:48 ` Luke Dashjr
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-20 3:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Aaron Voisine; +Cc: Bitcoin Development
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It all comes down to managing risk. If you’ve got a decent risk model with capped losses and safe recovery mechanisms…and it’s still profitable…it’s fine. But most payment processors and merchants right now probably don’t have particularly good risk models and are making many dangerous assumptions…and probably would not be able to gracefully handle very many risk scenarios.
- Eric Lombrozo
> On Jun 19, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Aaron Voisine <voisine@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> > What retail needs is escrowed microchannel hubs (what lightning provides, for example), which enable untrusted instant payments. Not reliance on single-signer zeroconf transactions that can never be made safe.
>
> They don't need to be made cryptographically safe, they just have to be safer than, for instance, credit card payments that can be charged back. As long as it's reasonably good in practice, that's fine.
>
>
> Aaron Voisine
> co-founder and CEO
> breadwallet.com <http://breadwallet.com/>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach•org <mailto:mark@friedenbach•org>> wrote:
> What retail needs is escrowed microchannel hubs (what lightning provides, for example), which enable untrusted instant payments. Not reliance on single-signer zeroconf transactions that can never be made safe.
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Andreas Petersson <andreas@petersson•at <mailto:andreas@petersson•at>> wrote:
> I have some experience here. If you are seriously suggesting these
> measures, you might as well kill retail transactions altogether.
>
> In practice, if a retail place starts to accept bitcoin they have a
> similar situation as with cash, only that the fraud potential is much
> lower. (e.g. 100-dollar bill for a sandwich might turn out fake later)
> and the fraud frequency is also much lower.
>
> 0-conf concerns were never a problem in practice. except for 2-way atms
> i have never heard of a problem that was caused by double spends.
> while adding these measures is generally positive, requiring them means
> excluding 99.9% of the potential users. so you might as well not do it.
>
> RBF as implemented by F2Pool just flat out lowers Bitcoins utility
> value. So it's a bad thing.
>
> for any online or automated system, waiting for a handful of
> confirmations was always recommended practice.
>
> Am 19.06.2015 um 22:39 schrieb Matt Whitlock:
> > Retail POS merchants probably should not be accepting vanilla Bitcoin
> > payments, as Bitcoin alone does not (and cannot) guarantee the
> > irreversibility of a transaction until it has been buried several
> > blocks deep in the chain. Retail merchants should be requiring a
> > co-signature from a mutually trusted co-signer that vows never to sign
> > a double-spend.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
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* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 1:23 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-06-20 3:07 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-20 3:48 ` Luke Dashjr
2015-06-20 4:02 ` Eric Lombrozo
1 sibling, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Luke Dashjr @ 2015-06-20 3:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
On Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:23:03 AM Aaron Voisine wrote:
> They don't need to be made cryptographically safe, they just have to be
> safer than, for instance, credit card payments that can be charged back. As
> long as it's reasonably good in practice, that's fine.
They never will be. You can get a decent rate of success merely by making one
transaction propagate fast (eg, 1 input, 1 output) and the other slow (eg,
1000 inputs, 1000 outputs) and choosing your peers carefully. The only reason
unconfirmed transactions aren't double spent today is because nobody is
seriously *trying*.
Luke
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 3:48 ` Luke Dashjr
@ 2015-06-20 4:02 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 16:43 ` Ivan Brightly
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-20 4:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Luke Dashjr; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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> On Jun 19, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr•org> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:23:03 AM Aaron Voisine wrote:
>> They don't need to be made cryptographically safe, they just have to be
>> safer than, for instance, credit card payments that can be charged back. As
>> long as it's reasonably good in practice, that's fine.
>
> They never will be. You can get a decent rate of success merely by making one
> transaction propagate fast (eg, 1 input, 1 output) and the other slow (eg,
> 1000 inputs, 1000 outputs) and choosing your peers carefully. The only reason
> unconfirmed transactions aren't double spent today is because nobody is
> seriously *trying*.
>
> Luke
>
Newspapers are often sold in vending machines that make it possible for anyone to just pay the price of one and take them all…and most of the time they are not that carefully monitored. Why? Because most people have better things to do than try to steal a few newspapers. They probably were much more closely monitored earlier in their history…but once it became clear that despite the obvious attack vector very few people actually try to game it, vendors figured it wasn’t really that big a risk. Same thing applies to people trying to steal a piece of bubble gum at the cash register at a convenience store by double-spending.
- Eric Lombrozo
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 4:02 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-20 16:43 ` Ivan Brightly
2015-06-20 17:38 ` Cameron Hejazi
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Ivan Brightly @ 2015-06-20 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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Yep - similarly: you live in a neighborhood with a local coffee store. Sure
you could use a stolen credit card or a fake $5 bill, but it's not worth
the risk of being caught for a $3 coffee. And on the other side, the store
can deal with 1% of transactions getting reversed or having a fake bill so
they don't change their procedures.
Perfection is not necessary in all situations.
On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 19, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr•org> wrote:
> >
> > On Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:23:03 AM Aaron Voisine wrote:
> >> They don't need to be made cryptographically safe, they just have to be
> >> safer than, for instance, credit card payments that can be charged
> back. As
> >> long as it's reasonably good in practice, that's fine.
> >
> > They never will be. You can get a decent rate of success merely by
> making one
> > transaction propagate fast (eg, 1 input, 1 output) and the other slow
> (eg,
> > 1000 inputs, 1000 outputs) and choosing your peers carefully. The only
> reason
> > unconfirmed transactions aren't double spent today is because nobody is
> > seriously *trying*.
> >
> > Luke
> >
>
>
> Newspapers are often sold in vending machines that make it possible for
> anyone to just pay the price of one and take them all…and most of the time
> they are not that carefully monitored. Why? Because most people have better
> things to do than try to steal a few newspapers. They probably were much
> more closely monitored earlier in their history…but once it became clear
> that despite the obvious attack vector very few people actually try to game
> it, vendors figured it wasn’t really that big a risk. Same thing applies to
> people trying to steal a piece of bubble gum at the cash register at a
> convenience store by double-spending.
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
>
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 16:43 ` Ivan Brightly
@ 2015-06-20 17:38 ` Cameron Hejazi
0 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Cameron Hejazi @ 2015-06-20 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ivan Brightly; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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On Saturday, June 20, 2015, Ivan Brightly <ibrightly@gmail•com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ibrightly@gmail•com');>> wrote:
> Yep - similarly: you live in a neighborhood with a local coffee store.
> Sure you could use a stolen credit card or a fake $5 bill, but it's not
> worth the risk of being caught for a $3 coffee. And on the other side, the
> store can deal with 1% of transactions getting reversed or having a fake
> bill so they don't change their procedures.
>
These analogies being brought are based on the goal of quick
payments, which is different from the goal of Bitcoin:
cryptographically sound, distributed consensus.
> Perfection is not necessary in all situations.
>
If you want zeroconf transactions, first realize that this goal currently
has no sound solution in Bitcoin and until it does, supporting it should
not be a part of the agenda. There are two paths going forward, not
independent of one another, that would achieve the goal of quick payments
for your coffee etc:
- Research/implement a solution that is consistent with the goal of Bitcoin
- Rely on a cosigning central authority
If you think the latter option is nasty, remember that people,
like corporations, can be nasty as well. Do not rely on the good faith of
people.
Cameron
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 10:39 [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Peter Todd
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2015-06-19 15:39 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2015-06-20 20:04 ` odinn
2015-06-21 2:11 ` Dario Sneidermanis
5 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: odinn @ 2015-06-20 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd, bitcoin-development
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Hash: SHA1
Peter,
Recently there was a brouhaha over Coinbase censoring the ability of
firearms businesses to accept bitcoins via Coinbase
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3agbs7/coinbase_shuts_down_bit
coin_biz_for_firearms/
The question and relevance here to this is that for people who are
going for the alternate route (e.g., bailing on Coinbase / Bitpay /
similar web wallets, in favor of setting up with something like
Electrum and using Gear https://gear.mycelium.com/ as payment
processor or Straight
https://github.com/snitko/straight-server,
what would be the answer to "What does this mean for me?" for this topic
?
On 06/19/2015 03:39 AM, Peter Todd wrote:
> Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the
> hashing power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after
> discussions with me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has
> will be replaced if a conflicting transaction pays a higher fee.
> There are no requirements for the replacement transaction to pay
> addresses that were paid by the previous transaction.
>
>
> I'm a user. What does this mean for me?
> ---------------------------------------
>
> In the short term, very little. Wallet software aimed at average
> users has no ability to reliably detect conditions where an
> unconfirmed transaction may be double-spent by the sender. For
> example, Schildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android doesn't even
> detect double-spends of unconfirmed transactions when connected to
> a RBF or Bitcoin XT nodes that propagate them. The least
> sophisticated double-spend attack possibly - simply broadcasting
> two conflicting transactions at the same time - has about 50%
> probability of success against these wallets.
>
> Additionally, SPV wallets based on bitcoinj can't even detect
> invalid transactions reliably, instead trusting the full node(s) it
> is connected too over the unauthenticated, unencrypted, P2P
> protocol to do validation for them. For instance due to a unfixed
> bug¹ Bitcoin XT nodes will relay double-spends that spend the
> output of the conflicting transaction. I've personally tested this
> with Schildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android, which shows such
> invalid transactions as standard, unconfirmed, transactions.
>
> Users should continue to assume that unconfirmed transactions could
> be trivially reversed by the sender until the first confirmation.
> In general, only the sender can reverse a transaction, so if you do
> trust the sender feel free to assume an unconfirmed transaction
> will eventually confirm. However, if you do not trust the sender
> and/or have no other recourse if they double-spend you, wait until
> at least the first confirmation before assuming the transaction
> will go through.
>
> In the long term, miner support of full RBF has a number of
> advantages to users, allowing you to more efficiently make
> transactions, paying lower fees. However you'll need a wallet
> supporting these features; none exist yet.
>
>
> I'm a business. What does this mean for me?
> -------------------------------------------
>
> If you use your own node to verify transactions, you probably are
> in a similar situation as average users, so again, this means very
> little to you.
>
> If you use a payment processor/transaction API such as BitPay,
> Coinbase, BlockCypher, etc. you may or may not be accepting
> unconfirmed transactions, and they may or may not be "guaranteed"
> by your payment processor even if double-spent. If like most
> merchants you're using the API such that confirmations are required
> prior to accepting orders (e.g. taking a meaningful loss such as
> shipping a product if the tx is reversed) nothing changes for you.
> If not I recommend you contact your payment processor.
>
>
> I'm a miner. Why should I support replace-by-fee?
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Whether full or first-seen-safe⁵ RBF support (along with
> child-pays-for-parent) is an important step towards a fully
> functioning transaction fee market that doesn't lead to users'
> transactions getting mysteriously "stuck", particularly during
> network flooding events/attacks. A better functioning fee market
> will help reduce pressure to increase the blocksize, particularly
> from the users creating the most valuable transactions.
>
> Full RBF also helps make use of the limited blockchain space more
> efficiently, with up to 90%+ transaction size savings possible in
> some transaction patterns. (e.g. long payment chains⁶) More users
> in less blockchain space will lead to higher overall fees per
> block.
>
> Finally as we'll discuss below full RBF prevents a number of
> serious threats to the existing level playing field that miners
> operate in.
>
>
> Why can't we make accepting unconfirmed txs from untrusted people
> safe?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
>
> For a decentralized wallet, the situation is pretty bleak. These
> wallets only have a handful of connections to the network, with no
> way of knowing if those connections give an accurate view of what
> transactions miners actually know about.
>
> The only serious attempt to fix this problem for decentralized
> wallets that has been actually deployed is Andresen/Harding's
> double-spend relaying, implemented in Bitcoin XT. It relays up to
> one double-spend transaction per double-spent txout, with the
> intended effect to warn recipients. In practice however this
> functionality makes it easier to double-spend rather than harder,
> by giving an efficient and easy way to get double-spends to miners
> after the fact. Notably my RBF implementation even connects to
> Bitcoin XT nodes, reserving a % of all incoming and outgoing
> connection slots for them.
>
> Additionally Bitcoin XT's double-spend relaying is subject to
> attacks include bandwidth exhaustion, sybil attacks, and Gervais's
> non-sybil interactive attacks⁷ among many others.
>
>
> What about centralised wallets? -------------------------------
>
> Here the solutions being deployed, planned, and proposed are
> harmful, and even represent serious threats to Bitcoin's
> decentralization.
>
>
> Confidence factors ------------------
>
> Many services such as BlockCypher² have attempted to predict the
> probability that unconfirmed transactions will be mined, often
> guaranteeing merchants payment³ even in the event of a
> double-spend. The key component of these predictions is to sybil
> attack the P2P network as a whole, connecting to as many nodes as
> possible to measure transaction propagation. Additionally these
> services connect to pools directly via the getblocktemplate
> protocol, repeatedly downloading via GBT the lists of transactions
> in the to-be-mined blocks to determine what transactions miners are
> attempting to mine.
>
> None of these measures scale, wasting significant network and
> miner resources; in one instance a sybil attack by Chainalysis even
> completely blocked the users of the SPV wallet Breadwallet⁴ from
> accessing the network. These measures also don't work very well,
> giving double-spend attackers incentives to sybil attack miners
> themselves.
>
>
> Transaction processing contracts with miners
> --------------------------------------------
>
> The next step after measuring propagation fails is to contract
> with miners directly, signing contracts with as much of the hashing
> power as possible to get the transactions they want mined and
> double-spends rejected. The miners/pools would then provide an
> authenticated API endpoint for exclusive use of this service that
> would allow the service to add and remove specific transactions to
> the mempool on demand.
>
> There's a number of serious problems with this:
>
> 1) Mining contracts can be used to double-spend
>
> ...even when they're being used "honestly".
>
> Suppose Alice is a merchant using CoinPayCypher, who has contracts
> with 75% of the hashing power. Bob, another merchant, meanwhile
> uses a decentralized Bitcoin Core backend for payments to his
> website.
>
> Mallory wants to double-spend Bob's to buy his expensive products.
> He can do this by creating a transaction, tx1, that pays Alice,
> followed by a second transaction, tx2, that pays Bob. In any
> circumstance when Mallory can convince Bob to accept tx2, but
> prevent Bob from seeing tx1, the chance of Malory's double-spend
> succeeding becomes ~75% because CoinPayCypher's contracts with
> mining ensure the transaction paying Alice will get mined.
>
> Of course, dishonest use and/or compromise makes double-spending
> trivial: Malory can use the API credentials to ask miners to
> reject Bob's payment at any time.
>
>
> 2) They still don't work, without 51% attacking other miners
>
> Even if CoinPayCypher has 75% of the hashing power on contract,
> that's still a potentially 75% chance of being double-spent. The
> 25% of miners who haven't signed contracts have no _decentralized_
> way of ensuring they don't create blocks with double-spends, let
> alone at low cost. If those miners won't or can't sign contracts
> with CoinPayCypher the only next step available is to reject their
> blocks entirely.
>
>
> 3) Legal contracts give the advantage to non-anonymous miners in
> Western jurisdictions
>
> Suppose CoinPayCypher is a US company, and you're a miner with 1%
> hashing power located in northern China. The barriers to you
> succesfully negotiating a contract with CoinPayCypher are
> significant. You don't speak the same langauge, you're in a
> completely different jurisdiction so enforcing the legal contract
> is difficult, and being just 1%, CoinPayCypher sees you as
> insignificant.
>
> Who's going to get the profitable hashing power contracts first, if
> at all? Your English speaking competitors in the west. This is
> inherently a pressure towards centralization of mining.
>
>
> Why isn't this being announced on the bitcoin-security list first?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've had repeated discussions with services vulnerable to
> double-spends; they have been made well aware of the risk they're
> taking. If they've followed my own and others' advice they'll at
> minimum have constant monitoring of the rate of double-spends both
> on their own services and on the P2P network in general.
>
> If you choose to take a risk you should accept the consequences.
>
>
> How do I actually use full RBF? -------------------------------
>
> First get the full-RBF patch to v0.10.2:
>
> https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.10.2
>
> The above implementation of RBF includes additional code to find
> and preferentially connect to other RBF nodes, as well as Bitcoin
> XT nodes. Secondly, try out my replace-by-fee-tools at:
>
> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools
>
> You can watch double-spends on the network here:
>
> http://respends.thinlink.com/
>
>
> References ----------
>
> 1) "Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also
> novel variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android
> Bitcoin Wallet", Peter Todd, May 23rd 2015, Bitcoin-development
> mailing list,
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/
msg07795.html
>
> 2) "From Zero to Hero: Bitcoin Transactions in 8 Seconds", June
> 2nd, 2014, Erik Voorhees,
> https://medium.com/blockcypher-blog/from-zero-to-hero-bitcoin-transact
ions-in-8-seconds-7c9edcb3b734
>
> 3) Coinbase Merchant API, Accessed Jun 19th 2015,
> https://developers.coinbase.com/docs/merchants/callbacks#confirmations
>
> 4) "Chainalysis CEO Denies 'Sybil Attack' on Bitcoin's Network",
> March 14th 2015, Grace Caffyn, Coindesk,
> http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-
on-bitcoin-network/
>
> 5) "First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee", May 25th 2015, Peter Todd,
> Bitcoin-development mailing list,
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.ne
t/msg07829.html
>
> 6) "Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%", May 25th 2015,
> Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/
msg07813.html
>
> 7) "Tampering with the Delivery of Blocks and Transactions in
> Bitcoin", Arthur Gervais and Hubert Ritzdorf and Ghassan O. Karame
> and Srdjan Capkun, Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/578, Jun
> 10th 2015, http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- --------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development
> mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
- --
http://abis.io ~
"a protocol concept to enable decentralization
and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
https://keybase.io/odinn
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 15:37 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 15:53 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-20 23:16 ` Jorge Timón
2015-06-20 23:47 ` Eric Lombrozo
1 sibling, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jorge Timón @ 2015-06-20 23:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
> The Bitcoin network was designed (or should be designed) with the requirement that it can withstand deliberate double-spend attacks that can come from anywhere at any time…
I disagree with this premise. Please, don't take this as an argument
from authority fallacy, but I will cite Satoshi to express what I
think the assumptions while using the system should be:
"As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are
not cooperating to attack the network, they'll generate the longest
chain and outpace attackers."
I can't say for sure what was meant by "attacking the network" in this
context but I personally mean trying to rewrite valid and
proof-of-work-timestamped history.
Unconfirmed transactions are simply not part of history yet. Ordering
unconfirmed transactions in a consensus compatible way without a
universal clock is impossible, that's why we're using proof of work in
the first place.
Alternative policies are NOT attacks on the network.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2015-06-19 17:00 ` Tier Nolan
@ 2015-06-20 23:20 ` Jorge Timón
2015-06-20 23:37 ` justusranvier
4 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jorge Timón @ 2015-06-20 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie” assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay…
Non-repudiation can be built on top of the payment protocol layer.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 23:20 ` Jorge Timón
@ 2015-06-20 23:37 ` justusranvier
2015-06-21 0:19 ` Eric Lombrozo
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: justusranvier @ 2015-06-20 23:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jorge Timón; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2015-06-20 18:20, Jorge Timón wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should
>> explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie”
>> assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence
>> of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay…
>
> Non-repudiation can be built on top of the payment protocol layer.
Non-repudiation is an intrinsic property of the ECDSA signatures which
Bitcoin uses - it's not a feature that needs to be built.
There's no way to accidentally sign a transaction and accidentally
announce it publicly. There is no form of third-party error that can
result in a payee receiving an erroneous contract.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 23:16 ` [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Jorge Timón
@ 2015-06-20 23:47 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 23:52 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 23:56 ` Eric Lombrozo
0 siblings, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-20 23:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jorge Timón; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1556 bytes --]
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Jorge Timón <jtimon@jtimon•cc> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
>> The Bitcoin network was designed (or should be designed) with the requirement that it can withstand deliberate double-spend attacks that can come from anywhere at any time…
>
> I disagree with this premise. Please, don't take this as an argument
> from authority fallacy, but I will cite Satoshi to express what I
> think the assumptions while using the system should be:
>
> "As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are
> not cooperating to attack the network, they'll generate the longest
> chain and outpace attackers."
>
> I can't say for sure what was meant by "attacking the network" in this
> context but I personally mean trying to rewrite valid and
> proof-of-work-timestamped history.
> Unconfirmed transactions are simply not part of history yet. Ordering
> unconfirmed transactions in a consensus compatible way without a
> universal clock is impossible, that's why we're using proof of work in
> the first place.
>
> Alternative policies are NOT attacks on the network.
Just to be clear, Jorge, I wasn’t suggesting that unconfirmed transactions are part of any sort of global consensus. In fact, they very much AREN’T. Which is exactly why it is extremely dangerous to accept unconfirmed transactions as final unless you clearly have assessed the risks and it makes sense for the particular business use case.
- Eric Lombrozo
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 23:47 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-20 23:52 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 23:56 ` Eric Lombrozo
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-20 23:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jorge Timón; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1921 bytes --]
I should also add that I think many in this space believe they have assessed the risk as acceptable but haven’t really considered how to cap potential losses nor made contingency plans for when the inevitable attacks *do* come.
- Eric Lombrozo
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:47 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Jorge Timón <jtimon@jtimon•cc> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
>>> The Bitcoin network was designed (or should be designed) with the requirement that it can withstand deliberate double-spend attacks that can come from anywhere at any time…
>>
>> I disagree with this premise. Please, don't take this as an argument
>> from authority fallacy, but I will cite Satoshi to express what I
>> think the assumptions while using the system should be:
>>
>> "As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are
>> not cooperating to attack the network, they'll generate the longest
>> chain and outpace attackers."
>>
>> I can't say for sure what was meant by "attacking the network" in this
>> context but I personally mean trying to rewrite valid and
>> proof-of-work-timestamped history.
>> Unconfirmed transactions are simply not part of history yet. Ordering
>> unconfirmed transactions in a consensus compatible way without a
>> universal clock is impossible, that's why we're using proof of work in
>> the first place.
>>
>> Alternative policies are NOT attacks on the network.
>
> Just to be clear, Jorge, I wasn’t suggesting that unconfirmed transactions are part of any sort of global consensus. In fact, they very much AREN’T. Which is exactly why it is extremely dangerous to accept unconfirmed transactions as final unless you clearly have assessed the risks and it makes sense for the particular business use case.
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 23:47 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 23:52 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-20 23:56 ` Eric Lombrozo
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-20 23:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jorge Timón; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2055 bytes --]
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:47 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Jorge Timón <jtimon@jtimon•cc> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
>>> The Bitcoin network was designed (or should be designed) with the requirement that it can withstand deliberate double-spend attacks that can come from anywhere at any time…
>>
>> I disagree with this premise. Please, don't take this as an argument
>> from authority fallacy, but I will cite Satoshi to express what I
>> think the assumptions while using the system should be:
>>
>> "As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are
>> not cooperating to attack the network, they'll generate the longest
>> chain and outpace attackers."
>>
>> I can't say for sure what was meant by "attacking the network" in this
>> context but I personally mean trying to rewrite valid and
>> proof-of-work-timestamped history.
>> Unconfirmed transactions are simply not part of history yet. Ordering
>> unconfirmed transactions in a consensus compatible way without a
>> universal clock is impossible, that's why we're using proof of work in
>> the first place.
>>
>> Alternative policies are NOT attacks on the network.
>
> Just to be clear, Jorge, I wasn’t suggesting that unconfirmed transactions are part of any sort of global consensus. In fact, they very much AREN’T. Which is exactly why it is extremely dangerous to accept unconfirmed transactions as final unless you clearly have assessed the risks and it makes sense for the particular business use case.
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
I think the misunderstanding was in perhaps my earlier statement seemed like I was suggesting that it’s the protocol’s responsibility to protect merchants from double-spends. On the contrary - I think we agree - the protocol CANNOT make any guarantees to ANYONE until we do converge on a history. The “design” I speak of here is more on the merchant side.
- Eric Lombrozo
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-20 23:37 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-21 0:19 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 0:27 ` justusranvier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-21 0:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: justusranvier; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1882 bytes --]
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:37 PM, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
>
> Signed PGP part
> On 2015-06-20 18:20, Jorge Timón wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com>
> > wrote:
> >> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should
> >> explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie”
> >> assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence
> >> of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay…
> >
> > Non-repudiation can be built on top of the payment protocol layer.
>
>
> Non-repudiation is an intrinsic property of the ECDSA signatures which
> Bitcoin uses - it's not a feature that needs to be built.
>
> There's no way to accidentally sign a transaction and accidentally
> announce it publicly. There is no form of third-party error that can
> result in a payee receiving an erroneous contract.
>
>
Justus,
We don’t even have a concept of identity in the Bitcoin protocol, let alone non-repudiation. What good is non-repudiation if there’s no way to even associate a signature with a legal entity?
Sure, we could use the ECDSA signatures in transactions as part of a non-repudiation scheme - but the recipient would have to also have a means to establish the identity of the sender and associate it with the the transaction.
Furthermore, in light of the fact that there *are* fully legitimate use cases for sending conflicting transactions…and the fact that determination of intent isn’t always entirely clear…we should refrain from attaching any further significance transaction signatures other than that “the sender was willing to have it included in the blockchain if a miner were to have seen it and accepted it…but perhaps the sender would have changed their mind before it actually did get accepted.”
- Eric Lombrozo
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 0:19 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-21 0:27 ` justusranvier
2015-06-21 0:36 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 0:54 ` Eric Lombrozo
0 siblings, 2 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: justusranvier @ 2015-06-21 0:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 2015-06-20 19:19, Eric Lombrozo wrote:
>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:37 PM, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
>>
>> Signed PGP part
>> On 2015-06-20 18:20, Jorge Timón wrote:
>> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should
>> >> explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie”
>> >> assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence
>> >> of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay…
>> >
>> > Non-repudiation can be built on top of the payment protocol layer.
>>
>>
>> Non-repudiation is an intrinsic property of the ECDSA signatures which
>> Bitcoin uses - it's not a feature that needs to be built.
>>
>> There's no way to accidentally sign a transaction and accidentally
>> announce it publicly. There is no form of third-party error that can
>> result in a payee receiving an erroneous contract.
>>
>>
>
> Justus,
>
> We don’t even have a concept of identity in the Bitcoin protocol, let
> alone non-repudiation. What good is non-repudiation if there’s no way
> to even associate a signature with a legal entity?
>
> Sure, we could use the ECDSA signatures in transactions as part of a
> non-repudiation scheme - but the recipient would have to also have a
> means to establish the identity of the sender and associate it with
> the the transaction.
>
>
> Furthermore, in light of the fact that there *are* fully legitimate
> use cases for sending conflicting transactions…and the fact that
> determination of intent isn’t always entirely clear…we should refrain
> from attaching any further significance transaction signatures other
> than that “the sender was willing to have it included in the
> blockchain if a miner were to have seen it and accepted it…but perhaps
> the sender would have changed their mind before it actually did get
> accepted.”
Bitcoin has no concept of identity, but in any type of commercial
transaction the parties involved must know some minimal amount of
identity information in order to transact at all.
Except for some identifiable special cases, I think a payee is perfectly
justified in treating a double spend of a payment sent to them as part
of a commercial transaction as a fraud attempt and employing whatever
non-Bitcoin recourse mechanisms, if any, they have access to.
- From the perspective of the network, the obviously correct action for
any node or miner is to relay the first version of any transaction they
see. The primary purpose of mining is to resolve this
otherwise-unresolvable problem of determining which transaction among a
set of conflicting transactions happened first.
If a node or miner wants to deviate from the obviously correct
behaviour, and if they want to avoid harming the value of the network,
they should be particularly careful to make sure their deviation from
"first seen" doesn't introduce harmful unintended side effects, like
making fraud easier.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 0:27 ` justusranvier
@ 2015-06-21 0:36 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 0:54 ` Eric Lombrozo
1 sibling, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-21 0:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: justusranvier; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4052 bytes --]
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 5:27 PM, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
>
> Signed PGP part
> On 2015-06-20 19:19, Eric Lombrozo wrote:
> >> On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:37 PM, justusranvier@riseup•net wrote:
> >>
> >> Signed PGP part
> >> On 2015-06-20 18:20, Jorge Timón wrote:
> >> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should
> >> >> explicitly define one rather than relying on “prima facie”
> >> >> assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the existence
> >> >> of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay…
> >> >
> >> > Non-repudiation can be built on top of the payment protocol layer.
> >>
> >>
> >> Non-repudiation is an intrinsic property of the ECDSA signatures which
> >> Bitcoin uses - it's not a feature that needs to be built.
> >>
> >> There's no way to accidentally sign a transaction and accidentally
> >> announce it publicly. There is no form of third-party error that can
> >> result in a payee receiving an erroneous contract.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Justus,
> >
> > We don’t even have a concept of identity in the Bitcoin protocol, let
> > alone non-repudiation. What good is non-repudiation if there’s no way
> > to even associate a signature with a legal entity?
> >
> > Sure, we could use the ECDSA signatures in transactions as part of a
> > non-repudiation scheme - but the recipient would have to also have a
> > means to establish the identity of the sender and associate it with
> > the the transaction.
> >
> >
> > Furthermore, in light of the fact that there *are* fully legitimate
> > use cases for sending conflicting transactions…and the fact that
> > determination of intent isn’t always entirely clear…we should refrain
> > from attaching any further significance transaction signatures other
> > than that “the sender was willing to have it included in the
> > blockchain if a miner were to have seen it and accepted it…but perhaps
> > the sender would have changed their mind before it actually did get
> > accepted.”
>
> Bitcoin has no concept of identity, but in any type of commercial
> transaction the parties involved must know some minimal amount of
> identity information in order to transact at all.
>
> Except for some identifiable special cases, I think a payee is perfectly
> justified in treating a double spend of a payment sent to them as part
> of a commercial transaction as a fraud attempt and employing whatever
> non-Bitcoin recourse mechanisms, if any, they have access to.
>
> From the perspective of the network, the obviously correct action for
> any node or miner is to relay the first version of any transaction they
> see. The primary purpose of mining is to resolve this
> otherwise-unresolvable problem of determining which transaction among a
> set of conflicting transactions happened first.
>
> If a node or miner wants to deviate from the obviously correct
> behaviour, and if they want to avoid harming the value of the network,
> they should be particularly careful to make sure their deviation from
> "first seen" doesn't introduce harmful unintended side effects, like
> making fraud easier.
>
The contract between the buyer and seller is actually outside the Bitcoin network. Yes, a merchant that gets cheated could seek some other recourse in such an event…but the behavior you’re claiming as “obviously correct” is NOT obviously correct. In fact, there are arguments against this “obviously correct” way even if we were to accept the premise that the signature implies a promise to pay (which I think many reasonable individuals would also dispute). For instance, by relaying conflicting transactions it makes it potentially easier for others to discover the double-spend attempt (of course, this requires wallets to not be lazy about this…perhaps such relays could be flagged or placed in a special message type).
- Eric Lombrozo
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 0:27 ` justusranvier
2015-06-21 0:36 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-21 0:54 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 5:56 ` Tom Harding
` (2 more replies)
1 sibling, 3 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-21 0:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: justusranvier; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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One more thing I would like to add to this thread: I want to make it unequivocally clear that I believe what is making double-spends easier has relatively little to do with the protocol and almost everything to do with poor software and poor security policy on the merchant end. Perhaps it isn’t prudent to push out changes to the relay policy that make these exploits even easier right now - but we NEED to be applying some kind of pressure on the merchant end to upgrade their stuff to be more resilient so that we have more room for changes on things like relay policy without significant disruption to the network.
- Eric Lombrozo
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-19 10:39 [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Peter Todd
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2015-06-20 20:04 ` odinn
@ 2015-06-21 2:11 ` Dario Sneidermanis
2015-06-21 2:23 ` Dario Sneidermanis
5 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Dario Sneidermanis @ 2015-06-21 2:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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se, lo re putearon a Peter Todd en reddit por esto
On Jun 19, 2015 7:42 AM, "Peter Todd" <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
> power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions with
> me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if a
> conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements for
> the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
> previous transaction.
>
>
> I'm a user. What does this mean for me?
> ---------------------------------------
>
> In the short term, very little. Wallet software aimed at average users
> has no ability to reliably detect conditions where an unconfirmed
> transaction may be double-spent by the sender. For example, Schildbach's
> Bitcoin Wallet for Android doesn't even detect double-spends of
> unconfirmed transactions when connected to a RBF or Bitcoin XT nodes
> that propagate them. The least sophisticated double-spend attack
> possibly - simply broadcasting two conflicting transactions at the same
> time - has about 50% probability of success against these wallets.
>
> Additionally, SPV wallets based on bitcoinj can't even detect invalid
> transactions reliably, instead trusting the full node(s) it is connected
> too over the unauthenticated, unencrypted, P2P protocol to do validation
> for them. For instance due to a unfixed bug¹ Bitcoin XT nodes will relay
> double-spends that spend the output of the conflicting transaction. I've
> personally tested this with Schildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android,
> which shows such invalid transactions as standard, unconfirmed,
> transactions.
>
> Users should continue to assume that unconfirmed transactions could be
> trivially reversed by the sender until the first confirmation. In
> general, only the sender can reverse a transaction, so if you do trust
> the sender feel free to assume an unconfirmed transaction will
> eventually confirm. However, if you do not trust the sender and/or have
> no other recourse if they double-spend you, wait until at least the
> first confirmation before assuming the transaction will go through.
>
> In the long term, miner support of full RBF has a number of advantages
> to users, allowing you to more efficiently make transactions, paying
> lower fees. However you'll need a wallet supporting these features; none
> exist yet.
>
>
> I'm a business. What does this mean for me?
> -------------------------------------------
>
> If you use your own node to verify transactions, you probably are in a
> similar situation as average users, so again, this means very little to
> you.
>
> If you use a payment processor/transaction API such as BitPay, Coinbase,
> BlockCypher, etc. you may or may not be accepting unconfirmed
> transactions, and they may or may not be "guaranteed" by your payment
> processor even if double-spent. If like most merchants you're using the
> API such that confirmations are required prior to accepting orders (e.g.
> taking a meaningful loss such as shipping a product if the tx is
> reversed) nothing changes for you. If not I recommend you contact your
> payment processor.
>
>
> I'm a miner. Why should I support replace-by-fee?
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Whether full or first-seen-safe⁵ RBF support (along with
> child-pays-for-parent) is an important step towards a fully functioning
> transaction fee market that doesn't lead to users' transactions getting
> mysteriously "stuck", particularly during network flooding
> events/attacks. A better functioning fee market will help reduce
> pressure to increase the blocksize, particularly from the users creating
> the most valuable transactions.
>
> Full RBF also helps make use of the limited blockchain space more
> efficiently, with up to 90%+ transaction size savings possible in some
> transaction patterns. (e.g. long payment chains⁶) More users in less
> blockchain space will lead to higher overall fees per block.
>
> Finally as we'll discuss below full RBF prevents a number of serious
> threats to the existing level playing field that miners operate in.
>
>
> Why can't we make accepting unconfirmed txs from untrusted people safe?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> For a decentralized wallet, the situation is pretty bleak. These wallets
> only have a handful of connections to the network, with no way of
> knowing if those connections give an accurate view of what transactions
> miners actually know about.
>
> The only serious attempt to fix this problem for decentralized wallets
> that has been actually deployed is Andresen/Harding's double-spend
> relaying, implemented in Bitcoin XT. It relays up to one double-spend
> transaction per double-spent txout, with the intended effect to warn
> recipients. In practice however this functionality makes it easier to
> double-spend rather than harder, by giving an efficient and easy way to
> get double-spends to miners after the fact. Notably my RBF
> implementation even connects to Bitcoin XT nodes, reserving a % of all
> incoming and outgoing connection slots for them.
>
> Additionally Bitcoin XT's double-spend relaying is subject to attacks
> include bandwidth exhaustion, sybil attacks, and Gervais's non-sybil
> interactive attacks⁷ among many others.
>
>
> What about centralised wallets?
> -------------------------------
>
> Here the solutions being deployed, planned, and proposed are harmful,
> and even represent serious threats to Bitcoin's decentralization.
>
>
> Confidence factors
> ------------------
>
> Many services such as BlockCypher² have attempted to predict the
> probability that unconfirmed transactions will be mined, often
> guaranteeing merchants payment³ even in the event of a double-spend. The
> key component of these predictions is to sybil attack the P2P network as
> a whole, connecting to as many nodes as possible to measure transaction
> propagation. Additionally these services connect to pools directly via
> the getblocktemplate protocol, repeatedly downloading via GBT the lists
> of transactions in the to-be-mined blocks to determine what transactions
> miners are attempting to mine.
>
> None of these measures scale, wasting significant network and miner
> resources; in one instance a sybil attack by Chainalysis even completely
> blocked the users of the SPV wallet Breadwallet⁴ from accessing the
> network. These measures also don't work very well, giving double-spend
> attackers incentives to sybil attack miners themselves.
>
>
> Transaction processing contracts with miners
> --------------------------------------------
>
> The next step after measuring propagation fails is to contract with
> miners directly, signing contracts with as much of the hashing power as
> possible to get the transactions they want mined and double-spends
> rejected. The miners/pools would then provide an authenticated API
> endpoint for exclusive use of this service that would allow the service
> to add and remove specific transactions to the mempool on demand.
>
> There's a number of serious problems with this:
>
> 1) Mining contracts can be used to double-spend
>
> ...even when they're being used "honestly".
>
> Suppose Alice is a merchant using CoinPayCypher, who has contracts with
> 75% of the hashing power. Bob, another merchant, meanwhile uses a
> decentralized Bitcoin Core backend for payments to his website.
>
> Mallory wants to double-spend Bob's to buy his expensive products. He
> can do this by creating a transaction, tx1, that pays Alice, followed by
> a second transaction, tx2, that pays Bob. In any circumstance when
> Mallory can convince Bob to accept tx2, but prevent Bob from seeing tx1,
> the chance of Malory's double-spend succeeding becomes ~75% because
> CoinPayCypher's contracts with mining ensure the transaction paying
> Alice will get mined.
>
> Of course, dishonest use and/or compromise makes double-spending
> trivial: Malory can use the API credentials to ask miners to reject
> Bob's payment at any time.
>
>
> 2) They still don't work, without 51% attacking other miners
>
> Even if CoinPayCypher has 75% of the hashing power on contract, that's
> still a potentially 75% chance of being double-spent. The 25% of miners
> who haven't signed contracts have no _decentralized_ way of ensuring
> they don't create blocks with double-spends, let alone at low cost. If
> those miners won't or can't sign contracts with CoinPayCypher the only
> next step available is to reject their blocks entirely.
>
>
> 3) Legal contracts give the advantage to non-anonymous miners in
> Western jurisdictions
>
> Suppose CoinPayCypher is a US company, and you're a miner with 1%
> hashing power located in northern China. The barriers to you succesfully
> negotiating a contract with CoinPayCypher are significant. You don't
> speak the same langauge, you're in a completely different jurisdiction
> so enforcing the legal contract is difficult, and being just 1%,
> CoinPayCypher sees you as insignificant.
>
> Who's going to get the profitable hashing power contracts first, if at
> all? Your English speaking competitors in the west. This is inherently a
> pressure towards centralization of mining.
>
>
> Why isn't this being announced on the bitcoin-security list first?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've had repeated discussions with services vulnerable to double-spends;
> they have been made well aware of the risk they're taking. If they've
> followed my own and others' advice they'll at minimum have constant
> monitoring of the rate of double-spends both on their own services and
> on the P2P network in general.
>
> If you choose to take a risk you should accept the consequences.
>
>
> How do I actually use full RBF?
> -------------------------------
>
> First get the full-RBF patch to v0.10.2:
>
> https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.10.2
>
> The above implementation of RBF includes additional code to find and
> preferentially connect to other RBF nodes, as well as Bitcoin XT nodes.
> Secondly, try out my replace-by-fee-tools at:
>
> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools
>
> You can watch double-spends on the network here:
>
> http://respends.thinlink.com/
>
>
> References
> ----------
>
> 1) "Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel
> variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin Wallet",
> Peter Todd, May 23rd 2015, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07795.html
>
> 2) "From Zero to Hero: Bitcoin Transactions in 8 Seconds",
> June 2nd, 2014, Erik Voorhees,
>
> https://medium.com/blockcypher-blog/from-zero-to-hero-bitcoin-transactions-in-8-seconds-7c9edcb3b734
>
> 3) Coinbase Merchant API, Accessed Jun 19th 2015,
> https://developers.coinbase.com/docs/merchants/callbacks#confirmations
>
> 4) "Chainalysis CEO Denies 'Sybil Attack' on Bitcoin's Network",
> March 14th 2015, Grace Caffyn, Coindesk,
>
> http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-on-bitcoin-network/
>
> 5) "First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee",
> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
>
> 6) "Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%",
> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
>
> 7) "Tampering with the Delivery of Blocks and Transactions in Bitcoin",
> Arthur Gervais and Hubert Ritzdorf and Ghassan O. Karame and Srdjan
> Capkun,
> Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/578, Jun 10th 2015,
> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 0000000000000000070a2bb3b92c20d5c2c971e6e1a7abe55cdbbe6a2dd9a5ad
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 2:11 ` Dario Sneidermanis
@ 2015-06-21 2:23 ` Dario Sneidermanis
0 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Dario Sneidermanis @ 2015-06-21 2:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 12956 bytes --]
Sorry about that, ignore me
On Jun 20, 2015 11:11 PM, "Dario Sneidermanis" <dariosn@gmail•com> wrote:
> se, lo re putearon a Peter Todd en reddit por esto
> On Jun 19, 2015 7:42 AM, "Peter Todd" <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>
>> Yesterday F2Pool, currently the largest pool with 21% of the hashing
>> power, enabled full replace-by-fee (RBF) support after discussions with
>> me. This means that transactions that F2Pool has will be replaced if a
>> conflicting transaction pays a higher fee. There are no requirements for
>> the replacement transaction to pay addresses that were paid by the
>> previous transaction.
>>
>>
>> I'm a user. What does this mean for me?
>> ---------------------------------------
>>
>> In the short term, very little. Wallet software aimed at average users
>> has no ability to reliably detect conditions where an unconfirmed
>> transaction may be double-spent by the sender. For example, Schildbach's
>> Bitcoin Wallet for Android doesn't even detect double-spends of
>> unconfirmed transactions when connected to a RBF or Bitcoin XT nodes
>> that propagate them. The least sophisticated double-spend attack
>> possibly - simply broadcasting two conflicting transactions at the same
>> time - has about 50% probability of success against these wallets.
>>
>> Additionally, SPV wallets based on bitcoinj can't even detect invalid
>> transactions reliably, instead trusting the full node(s) it is connected
>> too over the unauthenticated, unencrypted, P2P protocol to do validation
>> for them. For instance due to a unfixed bug¹ Bitcoin XT nodes will relay
>> double-spends that spend the output of the conflicting transaction. I've
>> personally tested this with Schildbach's Bitcoin Wallet for Android,
>> which shows such invalid transactions as standard, unconfirmed,
>> transactions.
>>
>> Users should continue to assume that unconfirmed transactions could be
>> trivially reversed by the sender until the first confirmation. In
>> general, only the sender can reverse a transaction, so if you do trust
>> the sender feel free to assume an unconfirmed transaction will
>> eventually confirm. However, if you do not trust the sender and/or have
>> no other recourse if they double-spend you, wait until at least the
>> first confirmation before assuming the transaction will go through.
>>
>> In the long term, miner support of full RBF has a number of advantages
>> to users, allowing you to more efficiently make transactions, paying
>> lower fees. However you'll need a wallet supporting these features; none
>> exist yet.
>>
>>
>> I'm a business. What does this mean for me?
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> If you use your own node to verify transactions, you probably are in a
>> similar situation as average users, so again, this means very little to
>> you.
>>
>> If you use a payment processor/transaction API such as BitPay, Coinbase,
>> BlockCypher, etc. you may or may not be accepting unconfirmed
>> transactions, and they may or may not be "guaranteed" by your payment
>> processor even if double-spent. If like most merchants you're using the
>> API such that confirmations are required prior to accepting orders (e.g.
>> taking a meaningful loss such as shipping a product if the tx is
>> reversed) nothing changes for you. If not I recommend you contact your
>> payment processor.
>>
>>
>> I'm a miner. Why should I support replace-by-fee?
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Whether full or first-seen-safe⁵ RBF support (along with
>> child-pays-for-parent) is an important step towards a fully functioning
>> transaction fee market that doesn't lead to users' transactions getting
>> mysteriously "stuck", particularly during network flooding
>> events/attacks. A better functioning fee market will help reduce
>> pressure to increase the blocksize, particularly from the users creating
>> the most valuable transactions.
>>
>> Full RBF also helps make use of the limited blockchain space more
>> efficiently, with up to 90%+ transaction size savings possible in some
>> transaction patterns. (e.g. long payment chains⁶) More users in less
>> blockchain space will lead to higher overall fees per block.
>>
>> Finally as we'll discuss below full RBF prevents a number of serious
>> threats to the existing level playing field that miners operate in.
>>
>>
>> Why can't we make accepting unconfirmed txs from untrusted people safe?
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> For a decentralized wallet, the situation is pretty bleak. These wallets
>> only have a handful of connections to the network, with no way of
>> knowing if those connections give an accurate view of what transactions
>> miners actually know about.
>>
>> The only serious attempt to fix this problem for decentralized wallets
>> that has been actually deployed is Andresen/Harding's double-spend
>> relaying, implemented in Bitcoin XT. It relays up to one double-spend
>> transaction per double-spent txout, with the intended effect to warn
>> recipients. In practice however this functionality makes it easier to
>> double-spend rather than harder, by giving an efficient and easy way to
>> get double-spends to miners after the fact. Notably my RBF
>> implementation even connects to Bitcoin XT nodes, reserving a % of all
>> incoming and outgoing connection slots for them.
>>
>> Additionally Bitcoin XT's double-spend relaying is subject to attacks
>> include bandwidth exhaustion, sybil attacks, and Gervais's non-sybil
>> interactive attacks⁷ among many others.
>>
>>
>> What about centralised wallets?
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> Here the solutions being deployed, planned, and proposed are harmful,
>> and even represent serious threats to Bitcoin's decentralization.
>>
>>
>> Confidence factors
>> ------------------
>>
>> Many services such as BlockCypher² have attempted to predict the
>> probability that unconfirmed transactions will be mined, often
>> guaranteeing merchants payment³ even in the event of a double-spend. The
>> key component of these predictions is to sybil attack the P2P network as
>> a whole, connecting to as many nodes as possible to measure transaction
>> propagation. Additionally these services connect to pools directly via
>> the getblocktemplate protocol, repeatedly downloading via GBT the lists
>> of transactions in the to-be-mined blocks to determine what transactions
>> miners are attempting to mine.
>>
>> None of these measures scale, wasting significant network and miner
>> resources; in one instance a sybil attack by Chainalysis even completely
>> blocked the users of the SPV wallet Breadwallet⁴ from accessing the
>> network. These measures also don't work very well, giving double-spend
>> attackers incentives to sybil attack miners themselves.
>>
>>
>> Transaction processing contracts with miners
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> The next step after measuring propagation fails is to contract with
>> miners directly, signing contracts with as much of the hashing power as
>> possible to get the transactions they want mined and double-spends
>> rejected. The miners/pools would then provide an authenticated API
>> endpoint for exclusive use of this service that would allow the service
>> to add and remove specific transactions to the mempool on demand.
>>
>> There's a number of serious problems with this:
>>
>> 1) Mining contracts can be used to double-spend
>>
>> ...even when they're being used "honestly".
>>
>> Suppose Alice is a merchant using CoinPayCypher, who has contracts with
>> 75% of the hashing power. Bob, another merchant, meanwhile uses a
>> decentralized Bitcoin Core backend for payments to his website.
>>
>> Mallory wants to double-spend Bob's to buy his expensive products. He
>> can do this by creating a transaction, tx1, that pays Alice, followed by
>> a second transaction, tx2, that pays Bob. In any circumstance when
>> Mallory can convince Bob to accept tx2, but prevent Bob from seeing tx1,
>> the chance of Malory's double-spend succeeding becomes ~75% because
>> CoinPayCypher's contracts with mining ensure the transaction paying
>> Alice will get mined.
>>
>> Of course, dishonest use and/or compromise makes double-spending
>> trivial: Malory can use the API credentials to ask miners to reject
>> Bob's payment at any time.
>>
>>
>> 2) They still don't work, without 51% attacking other miners
>>
>> Even if CoinPayCypher has 75% of the hashing power on contract, that's
>> still a potentially 75% chance of being double-spent. The 25% of miners
>> who haven't signed contracts have no _decentralized_ way of ensuring
>> they don't create blocks with double-spends, let alone at low cost. If
>> those miners won't or can't sign contracts with CoinPayCypher the only
>> next step available is to reject their blocks entirely.
>>
>>
>> 3) Legal contracts give the advantage to non-anonymous miners in
>> Western jurisdictions
>>
>> Suppose CoinPayCypher is a US company, and you're a miner with 1%
>> hashing power located in northern China. The barriers to you succesfully
>> negotiating a contract with CoinPayCypher are significant. You don't
>> speak the same langauge, you're in a completely different jurisdiction
>> so enforcing the legal contract is difficult, and being just 1%,
>> CoinPayCypher sees you as insignificant.
>>
>> Who's going to get the profitable hashing power contracts first, if at
>> all? Your English speaking competitors in the west. This is inherently a
>> pressure towards centralization of mining.
>>
>>
>> Why isn't this being announced on the bitcoin-security list first?
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I've had repeated discussions with services vulnerable to double-spends;
>> they have been made well aware of the risk they're taking. If they've
>> followed my own and others' advice they'll at minimum have constant
>> monitoring of the rate of double-spends both on their own services and
>> on the P2P network in general.
>>
>> If you choose to take a risk you should accept the consequences.
>>
>>
>> How do I actually use full RBF?
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> First get the full-RBF patch to v0.10.2:
>>
>> https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.10.2
>>
>> The above implementation of RBF includes additional code to find and
>> preferentially connect to other RBF nodes, as well as Bitcoin XT nodes.
>> Secondly, try out my replace-by-fee-tools at:
>>
>> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools
>>
>> You can watch double-spends on the network here:
>>
>> http://respends.thinlink.com/
>>
>>
>> References
>> ----------
>>
>> 1) "Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel
>> variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin
>> Wallet",
>> Peter Todd, May 23rd 2015, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07795.html
>>
>> 2) "From Zero to Hero: Bitcoin Transactions in 8 Seconds",
>> June 2nd, 2014, Erik Voorhees,
>>
>> https://medium.com/blockcypher-blog/from-zero-to-hero-bitcoin-transactions-in-8-seconds-7c9edcb3b734
>>
>> 3) Coinbase Merchant API, Accessed Jun 19th 2015,
>> https://developers.coinbase.com/docs/merchants/callbacks#confirmations
>>
>> 4) "Chainalysis CEO Denies 'Sybil Attack' on Bitcoin's Network",
>> March 14th 2015, Grace Caffyn, Coindesk,
>>
>> http://www.coindesk.com/chainalysis-ceo-denies-launching-sybil-attack-on-bitcoin-network/
>>
>> 5) "First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee",
>> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html
>>
>> 6) "Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%",
>> May 25th 2015, Peter Todd, Bitcoin-development mailing list,
>>
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07813.html
>>
>> 7) "Tampering with the Delivery of Blocks and Transactions in Bitcoin",
>> Arthur Gervais and Hubert Ritzdorf and Ghassan O. Karame and Srdjan
>> Capkun,
>> Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/578, Jun 10th 2015,
>> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/578
>>
>> --
>> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>> 0000000000000000070a2bb3b92c20d5c2c971e6e1a7abe55cdbbe6a2dd9a5ad
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 0:54 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-21 5:56 ` Tom Harding
2015-06-21 6:45 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-21 18:23 ` Aaron Voisine
2 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Tom Harding @ 2015-06-21 5:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: bitcoin-development
On 6/20/2015 5:54 PM, Eric Lombrozo wrote:
> Perhaps it isn’t prudent to push out changes to the relay policy that make these exploits even easier right now - but we NEED to be applying some kind of pressure on the merchant end to upgrade their stuff to be more resilient so that we have more room for changes on things like relay policy without significant disruption to the network.
>
There's no need to worry about causing more problems by relaying
double-spends. After a year of watching, it's clear that already only
20% of hash power strictly obeys first-seen.
http://i.imgur.com/0bYXrjn.png
It may be surprising that
- The period of ambiguity is very short - just 2 seconds
(this makes sense, given the .5s median propagation time)
- Fast double-spends between 2 and 15 seconds are less successful
- The steady-state 80% respend success rate is reached after just 15
seconds
The >30s data point includes txes that were respent after a long time,
sometimes months. Those longer-term respends are to be expected, as
people reclaim stuck txes.
Paying attention to double-spends is an opportunity for wallets and
merchants . With 140 Bitcoin XT nodes online, you're probably already
receiving them. Most wallets, including vanilla core, don't even alert
when a double-spend of a wallet transaction appears in a block - even
though there may still be time to withhold delivery of the goods/services.
If FSS RBF gains miner share, fewer successful zero-conf double-spends
will occur. Only radical twisted logic finds that to be an undesirable
result.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 0:54 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 5:56 ` Tom Harding
@ 2015-06-21 6:45 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-21 7:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 18:23 ` Aaron Voisine
2 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-06-21 6:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 435 bytes --]
On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
> but we NEED to be applying some kind of pressure on the merchant end to
> upgrade their stuff to be more resilient
>
Can you be specific? What precise technical steps would you have BitPay
and Coinbase do? We upgrade our stuff to... what exactly?
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 6:45 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2015-06-21 7:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 8:35 ` Eric Lombrozo
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-21 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2311 bytes --]
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com <mailto:elombrozo@gmail•com>> wrote:
> but we NEED to be applying some kind of pressure on the merchant end to upgrade their stuff to be more resilient
>
> Can you be specific? What precise technical steps would you have BitPay and Coinbase do? We upgrade our stuff to... what exactly?
>
> --
> Jeff Garzik
> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ <https://bitpay.com/>
Thanks for asking *the* question, Jeff. We often get caught up in these philosophical debates…but at the end of the day we need something concrete.
Even more important than the specific software you’re using is the security policy.
If you must accept zero confirmation transactions, there are a few concrete things you can do to reduce your exposure:
1) limit the transaction amounts for zero confirmation transactions - do not accept them for very high priced goods…especially if they require physical shipping.
2) limit the total amount of unconfirmed revenue you’ll tolerate at any given moment - if the amount is exceeded, require confirmations.
3) give merchants of subscription services (i.e. servers, hosting, etc…) the ability to shut the user out if a double-spend is detected.
4) collect legal information on purchasers (or have the merchants collect this information) so you have someone to go after if they try to screw you
5) create a risk profile for users…and flag suspicious behavior (i.e. someone trying to purchase a bunch of stuff that totally doesn’t fit into their purchasing habits).
6) get insurance (although right now reasonably-priced insurance is probably pretty hard to obtain since statistics are generally of little use…we’re entering uncharted territory).
7) set up a warning system and a “panic” button so that if you start to see an attack you can immediately disable all zero confirmation transactions system-wide.
8) independently verify all inbound transactions and connect to multiple network nodes…check them against one another.
As for software tools to accomplish these things, we can talk about that offline :)
- Eric Lombrozo
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 7:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-21 8:35 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 8:41 ` Btc Drak
2015-06-21 19:49 ` Jeff Garzik
2 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-21 8:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3022 bytes --]
> On Jun 21, 2015, at 12:42 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com <mailto:jgarzik@bitpay•com>> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com <mailto:elombrozo@gmail•com>> wrote:
>> but we NEED to be applying some kind of pressure on the merchant end to upgrade their stuff to be more resilient
>>
>> Can you be specific? What precise technical steps would you have BitPay and Coinbase do? We upgrade our stuff to... what exactly?
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Garzik
>> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
>> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ <https://bitpay.com/>
> Thanks for asking *the* question, Jeff. We often get caught up in these philosophical debates…but at the end of the day we need something concrete.
>
> Even more important than the specific software you’re using is the security policy.
>
> If you must accept zero confirmation transactions, there are a few concrete things you can do to reduce your exposure:
>
> 1) limit the transaction amounts for zero confirmation transactions - do not accept them for very high priced goods…especially if they require physical shipping.
> 2) limit the total amount of unconfirmed revenue you’ll tolerate at any given moment - if the amount is exceeded, require confirmations.
> 3) give merchants of subscription services (i.e. servers, hosting, etc…) the ability to shut the user out if a double-spend is detected.
> 4) collect legal information on purchasers (or have the merchants collect this information) so you have someone to go after if they try to screw you
> 5) create a risk profile for users…and flag suspicious behavior (i.e. someone trying to purchase a bunch of stuff that totally doesn’t fit into their purchasing habits).
> 6) get insurance (although right now reasonably-priced insurance is probably pretty hard to obtain since statistics are generally of little use…we’re entering uncharted territory).
> 7) set up a warning system and a “panic” button so that if you start to see an attack you can immediately disable all zero confirmation transactions system-wide.
> 8) independently verify all inbound transactions and connect to multiple network nodes…check them against one another.
>
>
> As for software tools to accomplish these things, we can talk about that offline :)
>
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
>
>
>
>
I should also point out that pretty much all of these suggestions (except for maybe 8) would apply to ANY payment system…they are NOT specific to Bitcoin whatsoever. Any serious payment processor should have these sorts of policies engrained as part of company culture…or else one day (probably not too long from now) you’ll be out of business. The mere suggestion that changing relay policy would pose significant threats to the bottom line of a payment processor is about the height of amateurishness, IMHO.
- Eric Lombrozo
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 7:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 8:35 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-06-21 8:41 ` Btc Drak
2015-06-21 8:51 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 19:49 ` Jeff Garzik
2 siblings, 1 reply; 79+ messages in thread
From: Btc Drak @ 2015-06-21 8:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4476 bytes --]
Eric,
BitPay clearly do understand the risks of 0-conf. In case you were not
aware BitPay does not particularly "accept zero confirm transactions". When
a payment is seen on the network the payment screen reports the invoice has
been paid, but that's front-end user facing. On the back end it's marked as
paid but the API exposes the the confirmation status allowing the merchant
to make business decisions about when to progress to fulfilment. A good
example of this is Neteller (a sort of paypal variant) which allows one to
fund the account with fiat using Bitcoin, via Bitpay. When you pay the
bitpay invoice, your account is marked as payment pending until there are
some confirmations.
Coinbase does not expose the confirmation status and from what I understand
(not checked myself) they guarantee payment to merchants for 0-confirm,
regardless of whether they confirm or not.
I want to address something stated by Justus, that signing a payment
message and broadcasting somehow solidifies intent and going back on that
would be fraud. This seriously conflates cryptographic certainty with human
behaviour. For one, humans make mistakes all the time. We get tired, we get
distracted, we make copy paste errors. It's entirely possible on sends a
payment only to find it's been sent to the wrong address or the wrong
amount has been sent or the fee is wrong. Software may also misbehave
(Electrum for example has a weird UI glitch with fees where the specified
fee can be overwritten). r/bitcoin it littered with sad examples. What
ECDSA signing tells is that it was signed by your private key, but nothing
else. It does not say if *you* signed it, or that the message you signed
was correct.
On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 8:42 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> On Jun 20, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>
>> but we NEED to be applying some kind of pressure on the merchant end to
>> upgrade their stuff to be more resilient
>>
>
> Can you be specific? What precise technical steps would you have BitPay
> and Coinbase do? We upgrade our stuff to... what exactly?
>
> --
> Jeff Garzik
> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
>
>
> Thanks for asking *the* question, Jeff. We often get caught up in these
> philosophical debates…but at the end of the day we need something concrete.
>
> Even more important than the specific software you’re using is the
> security policy.
>
> If you must accept zero confirmation transactions, there are a few
> concrete things you can do to reduce your exposure:
>
> 1) limit the transaction amounts for zero confirmation transactions - do
> not accept them for very high priced goods…especially if they require
> physical shipping.
> 2) limit the total amount of unconfirmed revenue you’ll tolerate at any
> given moment - if the amount is exceeded, require confirmations.
> 3) give merchants of subscription services (i.e. servers, hosting, etc…)
> the ability to shut the user out if a double-spend is detected.
> 4) collect legal information on purchasers (or have the merchants collect
> this information) so you have someone to go after if they try to screw you
> 5) create a risk profile for users…and flag suspicious behavior (i.e.
> someone trying to purchase a bunch of stuff that totally doesn’t fit into
> their purchasing habits).
> 6) get insurance (although right now reasonably-priced insurance is
> probably pretty hard to obtain since statistics are generally of little
> use…we’re entering uncharted territory).
> 7) set up a warning system and a “panic” button so that if you start to
> see an attack you can immediately disable all zero confirmation
> transactions system-wide.
> 8) independently verify all inbound transactions and connect to multiple
> network nodes…check them against one another.
>
>
> As for software tools to accomplish these things, we can talk about that
> offline :)
>
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 8:41 ` Btc Drak
@ 2015-06-21 8:51 ` Eric Lombrozo
0 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-06-21 8:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Btc Drak; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
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> On Jun 21, 2015, at 1:41 AM, Btc Drak <btcdrak@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> Eric,
>
> BitPay clearly do understand the risks of 0-conf. In case you were not aware BitPay does not particularly "accept zero confirm transactions". When a payment is seen on the network the payment screen reports the invoice has been paid, but that's front-end user facing. On the back end it's marked as paid but the API exposes the the confirmation status allowing the merchant to make business decisions about when to progress to fulfilment. A good example of this is Neteller (a sort of paypal variant) which allows one to fund the account with fiat using Bitcoin, via Bitpay. When you pay the bitpay invoice, your account is marked as payment pending until there are some confirmations.
>
I am glad to hear that. Yes, it absolutely makes sense to let the merchant to make business decisions still pending confirmation (i.e. should I actually ship?)
> Coinbase does not expose the confirmation status and from what I understand (not checked myself) they guarantee payment to merchants for 0-confirm, regardless of whether they confirm or not.
Then Coinbase is essentially taking on the role of an insurer…are they taking the appropriate precautions to limit potential losses? Can they make up for these losses with fees? And if not (or if they don’t really have a quantifiable risk model) could they survive a worst-case scenario with at most a surface wound? (i.e. a systemic attack involving many machines in many different places all attacking at once).
It would be absolutely the height of idiocy to guarantee payment on merchandise that has yet to ship, i.e. So I hope these reports are wrong :)
- Eric Lombrozo
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 0:54 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 5:56 ` Tom Harding
2015-06-21 6:45 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2015-06-21 18:23 ` Aaron Voisine
2 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Aaron Voisine @ 2015-06-21 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1854 bytes --]
We should use relay and default tx selection rules to raise the cost of
double spend attacks as far as it is easy and practical to do so. This
increases the value of the bitcoin network by making it practical to use in
more situations for more people. Merchants of course can't rely on them
being cryptographically safe, but the safer they are, the more useful.
The argument that since they can't be made perfectly safe, they should be
as easy as possible to reverse so that merchants learn not to rely on them,
is an incorrect one that reduces the usefulness and value of bitcoin.
Merchants will learn very quickly what the costs of accepting bitcoin
payments are, and the lower they are, the greater bitcoin merchant adoption
will be.
Aaron Voisine
co-founder and CEO
breadwallet.com
On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
> One more thing I would like to add to this thread: I want to make it
> unequivocally clear that I believe what is making double-spends easier has
> relatively little to do with the protocol and almost everything to do with
> poor software and poor security policy on the merchant end. Perhaps it
> isn’t prudent to push out changes to the relay policy that make these
> exploits even easier right now - but we NEED to be applying some kind of
> pressure on the merchant end to upgrade their stuff to be more resilient so
> that we have more room for changes on things like relay policy without
> significant disruption to the network.
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee
2015-06-21 7:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 8:35 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 8:41 ` Btc Drak
@ 2015-06-21 19:49 ` Jeff Garzik
2 siblings, 0 replies; 79+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-06-21 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev, Justus Ranvier
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2677 bytes --]
On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 12:42 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
> Thanks for asking *the* question, Jeff. We often get caught up in these
> philosophical debates…but at the end of the day we need something concrete.
>
> Even more important than the specific software you’re using is the
> security policy.
>
> If you must accept zero confirmation transactions, there are a few
> concrete things you can do to reduce your exposure:
>
> 1) limit the transaction amounts for zero confirmation transactions - do
> not accept them for very high priced goods…especially if they require
> physical shipping.
> 2) limit the total amount of unconfirmed revenue you’ll tolerate at any
> given moment - if the amount is exceeded, require confirmations.
> 3) give merchants of subscription services (i.e. servers, hosting, etc…)
> the ability to shut the user out if a double-spend is detected.
>
Already done -- BitPay merchants choose their level of transaction
security. Level of confirmations is directly exposed to merchants, so that
they choose the level of risk for themselves.
Physically shipped orders and subscriptions are actually the easy cases and
are already handled. These can accept 0-conf for an initial order phase,
then have the luxury of time to wait for confirmations before shipping /
canceling a subscription.
Electronic goods instantly delivered are the toughest use case. Even
there, merchants choose their level of risk.
> 4) collect legal information on purchasers (or have the merchants collect
> this information) so you have someone to go after if they try to screw you
>
The system requests this information on orders yes. Merchants also collect
this info as their needs dictate.
> 5) create a risk profile for users…and flag suspicious behavior (i.e.
> someone trying to purchase a bunch of stuff that totally doesn’t fit into
> their purchasing habits).
> 6) get insurance (although right now reasonably-priced insurance is
> probably pretty hard to obtain since statistics are generally of little
> use…we’re entering uncharted territory).
> 7) set up a warning system and a “panic” button so that if you start to
> see an attack you can immediately disable all zero confirmation
> transactions system-wide.
> 8) independently verify all inbound transactions and connect to multiple
> network nodes…check them against one another.
>
Definitely looking at or have implemented this sort of stuff. I cannot get
into detail in public...
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 79+ messages in thread
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2015-06-19 10:39 [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Gavin Andresen
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2015-06-19 14:00 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 14:08 ` Peter Todd
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2015-06-19 16:37 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 20:39 ` Matt Whitlock
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2015-06-19 21:15 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-20 0:47 ` Andreas Petersson
2015-06-20 1:09 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-06-20 1:23 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-06-20 3:07 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 3:48 ` Luke Dashjr
2015-06-20 4:02 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 16:43 ` Ivan Brightly
2015-06-20 17:38 ` Cameron Hejazi
2015-06-19 14:40 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 15:22 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 13:33 ` Stephen Morse
2015-06-19 13:37 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 13:48 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 14:16 ` Lawrence Nahum
2015-06-19 13:40 ` Adrian Macneil
2015-06-19 13:44 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 13:52 ` Chun Wang
2015-06-19 15:43 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 19:49 ` Jeffrey Paul
2015-06-19 15:42 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 16:15 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 15:00 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 15:11 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 15:37 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 15:53 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 16:36 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 16:46 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-06-19 16:53 ` Peter Todd
2015-06-19 16:54 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 17:00 ` Tier Nolan
2015-06-20 23:20 ` Jorge Timón
2015-06-20 23:37 ` justusranvier
2015-06-21 0:19 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 0:27 ` justusranvier
2015-06-21 0:36 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 0:54 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 5:56 ` Tom Harding
2015-06-21 6:45 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-21 7:42 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 8:35 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 8:41 ` Btc Drak
2015-06-21 8:51 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-21 19:49 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-21 18:23 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-06-19 16:44 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 17:40 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 17:48 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 17:50 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-19 18:00 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 16:50 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-06-19 16:41 ` [Bitcoin-development] Remove Us Please Gigas Gaming Inc.
2015-06-19 18:34 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-06-19 19:55 ` John Bodeen
2015-06-19 20:01 ` Brian Hoffman
2015-06-19 20:27 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-06-20 23:16 ` [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee Jorge Timón
2015-06-20 23:47 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 23:52 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-20 23:56 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-06-19 15:39 ` justusranvier
2015-06-19 15:39 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-06-20 20:04 ` odinn
2015-06-21 2:11 ` Dario Sneidermanis
2015-06-21 2:23 ` Dario Sneidermanis
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