* [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR)
@ 2025-07-10 22:55 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-07-15 18:48 ` Christian Riley
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List @ 2025-07-10 22:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List
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Dear Bitcoin developers,
I would like to propose a new BIP titled "Proof-of-Activity Reclamation
(PoAR)," which aims to address the long-term economic effects of lost and
abandoned UTXOs.
This proposal introduces a fully automated and rule-based mechanism to
gradually recycle coins that have been provably inactive for over 20 years.
These coins are returned to the undistributed pool and slowly reintroduced
via future block rewards—extending miner incentives while respecting the 21
million BTC cap.
You can view the full proposal here:
https://gist.github.com/Brandchatz/56c39d289db9e56190c13922850815b8
I welcome your thoughts, suggestions, and critiques.
Best regards,
Donald Dienst
dddienst@protonmail•com
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 2025-07-10 22:55 [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List @ 2025-07-15 18:48 ` Christian Riley 2025-07-15 19:07 ` Lucas Barbosa ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Christian Riley @ 2025-07-15 18:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Donald Dienst; +Cc: bitcoindev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/html, Size: 2876 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 2025-07-10 22:55 [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List 2025-07-15 18:48 ` Christian Riley @ 2025-07-15 19:07 ` Lucas Barbosa 2025-07-15 19:28 ` [bitcoindev] " Boris Nagaev 2025-07-15 22:02 ` [bitcoindev] " Murch 3 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Lucas Barbosa @ 2025-07-15 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Donald Dienst; +Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3670 bytes --] This type of proposal, is fundamentally incompatible with Bitcoin's ethos for several reasons. 1. Sovereignty and Immutability of Property In Bitcoin, ownership of a coin is guaranteed exclusively by possession of the corresponding private key. The idea that funds can be "reclaimed" or "recycled" after a period of inactivity amounts to automated confiscation, albeit disguised as economic efficiency. This undermines trust in the inviolability of property—something sacred to long-term users. 2. The 21 Million Rule is Inviolable, but the Supply is also Deterministic Although the proposal claims to respect the 21 million cap, it alters the nature of supply distribution. The fact that UTXOs are lost is part of the economic reality of BTC—the actual circulating supply is lower than the theoretical one, and this is priced in. Attempting to "correct" this is a form of monetary intervention without legitimate authority in the system. 3. Perverse Precedent and Attack on Finality Allowing a UTXO to be reused after N years sets a very dangerous precedent: ownership of BTC is no longer absolute and becomes conditional on activity. This directly attacks the finality of transactions and the ledger—one of the pillars of the system. 4. Negative Impact on Long-Term Trust People who store BTC for the future—whether for decades, for reasons of inheritance, security, or trust in the network—would lose the guarantee that their BTC will remain untouched. This reduces Bitcoin's perceived value as a solid and reliable store of value. 5. This Has Already Been Considered and Rejected Similar proposals (such as coin expiry or reclaimable outputs) have been discussed in the past, and the Bitcoin community has consistently rejected them based on the above principles. Em ter., 15 de jul. de 2025, 15:26, 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> escreveu: > Dear Bitcoin developers, > > I would like to propose a new BIP titled "Proof-of-Activity Reclamation > (PoAR)," which aims to address the long-term economic effects of lost and > abandoned UTXOs. > > This proposal introduces a fully automated and rule-based mechanism to > gradually recycle coins that have been provably inactive for over 20 years. > These coins are returned to the undistributed pool and slowly reintroduced > via future block rewards—extending miner incentives while respecting the 21 > million BTC cap. > > You can view the full proposal here: > https://gist.github.com/Brandchatz/56c39d289db9e56190c13922850815b8 > > I welcome your thoughts, suggestions, and critiques. > > Best regards, > Donald Dienst > dddienst@protonmail•com > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups•com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a186c724-eef7-4964-9aba-85ae9cce2249n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a186c724-eef7-4964-9aba-85ae9cce2249n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups•com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAPbyeOHQcehNYU26W4rC_wxTpfrZSCBgMuCecmBqHpOgETYSsA%40mail.gmail.com. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4943 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [bitcoindev] Re: [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 2025-07-10 22:55 [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List 2025-07-15 18:48 ` Christian Riley 2025-07-15 19:07 ` Lucas Barbosa @ 2025-07-15 19:28 ` Boris Nagaev 2025-07-15 21:58 ` 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List 2025-07-15 22:02 ` [bitcoindev] " Murch 3 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Boris Nagaev @ 2025-07-15 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2416 bytes --] Hi Donald, Thanks for sharing your proposal! There are several additional objections worth considering: 1. It would require a hard fork. Older nodes would reject blocks with a higher-than-expected miner reward. By contrast, SegWit and Taproot were implemented as soft forks. 2. It breaks long-term inheritance schemes. Imagine a newborn inheriting 1000 BTC from a wealthy relative. The relative sets a 30-year timelock to ensure the funds are not misused during childhood. This proposal would interfere with that intention and potentially strip the heir of their rightful inheritance. 3. It penalizes long-term planning and low time preference. Users who intentionally lock up funds for decades (whether for inheritance, security, or economic reasons) would be disproportionately impacted. 4. It changes who pays for network security. Miners are expected to be compensated in the long term by transaction fees paid by active transaction senders. This proposal would instead take value from long-term holders who aren't participating in the transaction flow, effectively taxing them without consent. Best regards, Boris On Tuesday, July 15, 2025 at 3:26:35 PM UTC-3 Donald Dienst wrote: Dear Bitcoin developers, I would like to propose a new BIP titled "Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR)," which aims to address the long-term economic effects of lost and abandoned UTXOs. This proposal introduces a fully automated and rule-based mechanism to gradually recycle coins that have been provably inactive for over 20 years. These coins are returned to the undistributed pool and slowly reintroduced via future block rewards—extending miner incentives while respecting the 21 million BTC cap. You can view the full proposal here: https://gist.github.com/Brandchatz/56c39d289db9e56190c13922850815b8 I welcome your thoughts, suggestions, and critiques. Best regards, Donald Dienst dddi...@protonmail•com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups•com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/344a8917-5cb2-44c7-adbd-04ff091ad947n%40googlegroups.com. [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 3018 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [bitcoindev] Re: [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 2025-07-15 19:28 ` [bitcoindev] " Boris Nagaev @ 2025-07-15 21:58 ` 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List @ 2025-07-15 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4884 bytes --] Boris, Thank you for taking the time to raise these thoughtful objections. They highlight important edge cases, particularly around long-term inheritance planning and time-locked contracts, that deserve further discussion. The intent of this proposal is not to seize anyone’s Bitcoin but to create a rules-based mechanism for reintroducing truly abandoned coins—those locked away forever due to lost keys—back into the economy. If a private key is irrecoverably lost, the associated Bitcoin is effectively removed from circulation and, arguably, no longer owned. In such cases, the so-called "security tax" affects no active participant. That said, your concerns are valid. One potential refinement would be to extend the inactivity window significantly—perhaps even to 100 years—to better accommodate multi-generational ownership and time-locked smart contracts. The core idea is that a sufficiently long timeframe, paired with clear expectations and wallet alerts, can strike a balance between preserving ownership rights and sustaining economic viability. It's also possible that this proposal—or one like it—may only be realistically implemented as part of a broader hard fork in the distant future, potentially bundled with other critical changes such as post-quantum security upgrades. I hope that when that moment comes, a mechanism for reclaiming permanently lost coins is part of that discussion. To those who object on purely ideological grounds, I would offer this reflection: if something can happen, it will happen—and it will continue to happen. People will keep losing keys. And one day, someone will lose the private key to the very last satoshi. Long before that point, Bitcoin may become functionally unusable—not because of inflation like fiat currencies, but due to irreversible deflation and economic ossification. In that light, maintaining the myth that permanently lost coins should remain sacrosanct is not ideological purity—it’s advocating for a slow march toward irrelevance. To preserve Bitcoin’s utility as both a store of value and a medium of exchange, we must confront this eventuality with reasoned, transparent, and opt-in solutions. Sincerely, *Donald D. Dienst* On Tuesday, July 15, 2025 at 3:42:15 PM UTC-4 Boris Nagaev wrote: > Hi Donald, > > Thanks for sharing your proposal! > > There are several additional objections worth considering: > > 1. It would require a hard fork. Older nodes would reject blocks with > a higher-than-expected miner reward. By contrast, SegWit and Taproot were > implemented as soft forks. > 2. It breaks long-term inheritance schemes. Imagine a newborn > inheriting 1000 BTC from a wealthy relative. The relative sets a 30-year > timelock to ensure the funds are not misused during childhood. This > proposal would interfere with that intention and potentially strip the heir > of their rightful inheritance. > 3. It penalizes long-term planning and low time preference. Users who > intentionally lock up funds for decades (whether for inheritance, security, > or economic reasons) would be disproportionately impacted. > 4. It changes who pays for network security. Miners are expected to be > compensated in the long term by transaction fees paid by active transaction > senders. This proposal would instead take value from long-term holders who > aren't participating in the transaction flow, effectively taxing them > without consent. > > > Best regards, > Boris > > On Tuesday, July 15, 2025 at 3:26:35 PM UTC-3 Donald Dienst wrote: > > Dear Bitcoin developers, > > I would like to propose a new BIP titled "Proof-of-Activity Reclamation > (PoAR)," which aims to address the long-term economic effects of lost and > abandoned UTXOs. > > This proposal introduces a fully automated and rule-based mechanism to > gradually recycle coins that have been provably inactive for over 20 years. > These coins are returned to the undistributed pool and slowly reintroduced > via future block rewards—extending miner incentives while respecting the 21 > million BTC cap. > > You can view the full proposal here: > https://gist.github.com/Brandchatz/56c39d289db9e56190c13922850815b8 > > I welcome your thoughts, suggestions, and critiques. > > Best regards, > Donald Dienst > dddi...@protonmail•com > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups•com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/b1bdc366-bc27-44dd-b1c6-83776cb9d55fn%40googlegroups.com. [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 5786 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 2025-07-10 22:55 [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2025-07-15 19:28 ` [bitcoindev] " Boris Nagaev @ 2025-07-15 22:02 ` Murch 2025-07-16 20:49 ` Peter Todd 3 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Murch @ 2025-07-15 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoindev Hi Donald and all, The idea of recycling dormant coins is one that has made the rounds several times before, including in the form of the "Bitcoin Dormant Recovery Proposal" just a couple months ago: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1852 I don’t have the impression that the idea has been particularly popular, and as BIPs go, this one is missing crucial parts, e.g.: • A more comprehensive motivation based on thorough analysis how redistributing dormant coins improves the system as this constitutes a departure of the status quo for the supply schedule • Specification of the redistribution rate and mechanism • Specification of the out-of-band activity proof mechanism and how this out-of-band information would be introduced into the Bitcoin system as consensus critical information, and discussion of alternative approaches and why this is the correct approach • Rationale for reclaiming dormant coins at halvings rather than UTXOs expiring after a fixed number of blocks • An analysis of the backward compatibility, including especially the discussion of how to conduct this hard fork In its current state, I would consider this document premature for a pull request and would encourage further development. Generally, the arguments and reasoning used in the motivation and rationale will need a lot more work to make a hard fork and a change in the economic paradigm palatable. Cheers, Murch On 2025-07-10 15:55, 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List wrote: > Dear Bitcoin developers, > > I would like to propose a new BIP titled "Proof-of-Activity > Reclamation (PoAR)," which aims to address the long-term economic > effects of lost and abandoned UTXOs. > > This proposal introduces a fully automated and rule-based mechanism to > gradually recycle coins that have been provably inactive for over 20 > years. These coins are returned to the undistributed pool and slowly > reintroduced via future block rewards—extending miner incentives while > respecting the 21 million BTC cap. > > You can view the full proposal here: > https://gist.github.com/Brandchatz/56c39d289db9e56190c13922850815b8 > > I welcome your thoughts, suggestions, and critiques. > > Best regards, > Donald Dienst > dddienst@protonmail•com -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups•com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a186c724-eef7-4964-9aba-85ae9cce2249n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a186c724-eef7-4964-9aba-85ae9cce2249n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups•com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/634ea7a6-1695-46e8-a337-1fef1ac17a66%40murch.one. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 2025-07-15 22:02 ` [bitcoindev] " Murch @ 2025-07-16 20:49 ` Peter Todd 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Peter Todd @ 2025-07-16 20:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Murch; +Cc: bitcoindev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1721 bytes --] On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 03:02:04PM -0700, Murch wrote: > Hi Donald and all, > > The idea of recycling dormant coins is one that has made the rounds several > times before, including in the form of the "Bitcoin Dormant Recovery > Proposal" just a couple months ago: > https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1852 > > I don’t have the impression that the idea has been particularly popular, and > as BIPs go, this one is missing crucial parts, e.g.: > > • A more comprehensive motivation based on thorough analysis how > redistributing dormant coins improves the system as this constitutes a > departure of the status quo for the supply schedule Worth noting that from an economic point of view redistributing genuinely lost coins, and creating coins out of thin air, is essentially the same thing: either way you are introducing coins into the active economy that were previously not in economic circulation. In both cases you are diluting the value of non-lost coins by increasing the total active supply, decreasing their purchasing power proportionally. If you want to argue for actually redistributing coins rather than just creating new ones out of thin air - for whatever reason - you need to justify why you want to risk confiscating coins that were not in fact lost. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups•com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aHgQaJOEe0x0b0HY%40petertodd.org. [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2025-07-16 21:05 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2025-07-10 22:55 [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Proof-of-Activity Reclamation (PoAR) 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List 2025-07-15 18:48 ` Christian Riley 2025-07-15 19:07 ` Lucas Barbosa 2025-07-15 19:28 ` [bitcoindev] " Boris Nagaev 2025-07-15 21:58 ` 'Donald Dienst' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List 2025-07-15 22:02 ` [bitcoindev] " Murch 2025-07-16 20:49 ` Peter Todd
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