From: Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail•com>
To: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil•org>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 15:34:31 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <8D68DC86-1173-43AC-BC84-FE2834741C13@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <0851B842-34A1-427F-95DC-A1D6AB416FB9@voskuil.org>
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Hi Eric,
> On Jul 6, 2019, at 03:28, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil•org> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Jul 5, 2019, at 17:17, ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail•com> wrote:
>>
>> Good morning Eric,
>>
>>> But it’s worth noting that early recovery of the UTXO entirely eliminates the value of the time lock cost to the ad market. The most obvious example is one encumbering the coin to himself, then releasing it with his own two signatures whenever he wants. In other words, there is no encumbrance at all, just a bunch of pointless obscurantion.
>>
>> You still do not understand.
>> I strongly suggest actually reading the post instead of skimming it.
>
> I am responding to the cryptoeconomic principles, not the implementation details. Based on your comments here I am not misrepresenting those principles.
>
> For example, I have shown that the multisig unlock implementation reduces the presumably-encumbered UTXO to simply a UTXO. You have not disputed that. In fact below you have accepted it (more below).
>
>> The advertisement is broadcast to new nodes on the ad network if and only if its backing UTXO remains unspent.
>> Once the UTXO is spent, then the advertisement is considered no longer valid and will be outright deleted by existing nodes, and new nodes will not learn of them (and would consider it spam if it is forced to them when the UTXO is already spent, possibly banning the node that pushes the advertisement at them).
>>
>> Thus the locked-ness of the UTXO is the lifetime of the advertisement.
>
> The term “locked” here is misused. A unspent output that can be spent at any time is just an unspent output. The fact that you can “unencumber” your own coins should make this exceedingly obvious:
>
>> Once you disencumber the coins (whether your own, or rented) then your advertisement is gone; forever.
>
> As I have shown, there is no *actual* encumbrance.
>
If you have to forgo using your money while using a service that encumbers you. You incur opportunity cost proportional to time you use the service and the amount you waived to use elsewhere.
No crypto is needed to understand this.
>> Your advertisement exists only as long as the UTXO is unspent.
>
> Exactly, which implies *any* UTXO is sufficient. All that the ad network requires is proof of ownership of any UTXO.
>
Not any, but one with significant value, so a service with limited bandwith can prioritize by that.
> Best,
> Eric
>
>> Regards.
>> ZmnSCPxj
Best,
Tamas Blummer
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-07-06 13:34 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 44+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-06-28 8:27 Tamas Blummer
2019-06-28 17:25 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-06-28 19:21 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-06-29 21:21 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-06-30 10:56 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-06-30 17:41 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-06-30 18:35 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-06-30 18:54 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-06-30 19:55 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-06-30 20:13 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-06-30 20:26 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-01 18:52 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-02 3:45 ` ZmnSCPxj
2019-07-02 6:38 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-02 8:12 ` ZmnSCPxj
2019-07-02 9:30 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-02 9:47 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-02 10:14 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-02 10:33 ` ZmnSCPxj
2019-07-02 12:51 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-02 5:08 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-03 22:30 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-04 4:57 ` ZmnSCPxj
2019-07-04 16:43 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-04 17:10 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-04 18:31 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-04 19:31 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-05 4:05 ` ZmnSCPxj
2019-07-05 19:27 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-05 23:16 ` ZmnSCPxj
2019-07-05 23:44 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-06 0:17 ` ZmnSCPxj
2019-07-06 1:28 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-06 1:46 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-06 13:34 ` Tamas Blummer [this message]
2019-07-06 22:21 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-07 1:30 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-07 9:18 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-09 10:31 ` ZmnSCPxj
2019-07-09 20:32 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-06 10:12 ` Tamas Blummer
2019-07-06 22:37 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-07-05 23:20 ` Eric Voskuil
2019-06-29 18:21 ` David A. Harding
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