* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a worried local trader
@ 2015-07-31 13:59 Un Ix
2015-07-31 14:29 ` Dave
0 siblings, 1 reply; 2+ messages in thread
From: Un Ix @ 2015-07-31 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: thomas; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1808 bytes --]
+1 on the comments below by Thomas.
"Fee market" is not a
binary option, either on or off. Like all markets it exists in varying
degrees over time and with more or less influence on the process of which it is
part of. As it stands now, and likely for another decade at least, the
fee per tx constitutes a very, very weak market signal for the miners since it
makes up less than 0.5% of the rewards paid for mining a full block. This is the normal and expected scenario, aimed at driving use of Bitcoin
as widely and cheaply as possible so that network effects will cement
Bitcoin for the future, for all users.
As a comparison, how many people would have
taken up using email if there had been a per-message fee and hourly
sending limits with only the highest-fee messages being delivered? And
how would it look if the email protocol developers imposing fees
& hourly sending limits were pushing hard for use of another email-delivery protocol on
top of the existing one?
> To: bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2015 11:56:48 +0200
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a worried local trader
> From: bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>
> On Friday 31. July 2015 03.21.07 Jorge Timón via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > If I was a miner and you want me to include your transaction for free,
> > you're asking me to give you money
>
> What?
>
> Ask yourself; why do miners include transactions at all? What it the incentive
> if there really is only less than 0.8% of income to be derived from fees?
>
> Miners don't get payed by fees. They won't need to get payed by fees for
> decades to come. Maybe you want to re-do your math, it seems off.
> --
> Thomas Zander
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2241 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 2+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a worried local trader
2015-07-31 13:59 [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a worried local trader Un Ix
@ 2015-07-31 14:29 ` Dave
0 siblings, 0 replies; 2+ messages in thread
From: Dave @ 2015-07-31 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Un Ix; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1979 bytes --]
> On 31 Jul 2015, at 06:59, Un Ix via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> +1 on the comments below by Thomas.
>
> "Fee market" is not a binary option, either on or off. Like all markets it exists in varying degrees over time and with more or less influence on the process of which it is part of. As it stands now, and likely for another decade at least, the fee per tx constitutes a very, very weak market signal for the miners since it makes up less than 0.5% of the rewards paid for mining a full block. This is the normal and expected scenario, aimed at driving use of Bitcoin as widely and cheaply as possible so that network effects will cement Bitcoin for the future, for all users.
>
> As a comparison, how many people would have taken up using email if there had been a per-message fee and hourly sending limits with only the highest-fee messages being delivered? And how would it look if the email protocol developers imposing fees & hourly sending limits were pushing hard for use of another email-delivery protocol on top of the existing one?
>
How would email have looked if it required 300 MW of power to support it for "free" for 10 years?
In practice email was never free- it was paid for by the payments users made to ISPs. ISPs paid for email and network infrastructure from that.
The equivalent analogy here would be to drop fees completely and pay a specific miner to mine all of your transactions as a monthly subscription (which of course doesn't work in a non-permission-based network).
Miners have real (huge) costs - they will be in a lot of pain with reward halving if a few model does not replace that. That in turn poses a huge risk of smaller miners shutting down, which in turn centralises things even more. I would argue that the lack of pool diversity and thus lack of block makers is already the single biggest risk for a decentralised system; avoiding the issue of fees just accelerates this.
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3081 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 2+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-07-31 14:29 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 2+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-07-31 13:59 [bitcoin-dev] Răspuns: Personal opinion on the fee market from a worried local trader Un Ix
2015-07-31 14:29 ` Dave
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox