I have a suggestion. If you are concerned about plausible deniability, then it might make sense to just have the single mnemonic seed lead to a single xprv key (as usual) and then do a private key derivation from that based on a password string. The password can be simple, as it is based on the security of the seed, just as long as the user feels they need for deniability. A simple reverse scheme like you describe would just be another thing a person would know to check if given some seed so I don't see it as providing much value, but I could be missing something. On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 10:45 AM Steven Hatzakis via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Hi All, > > I've developed a method to check if a mnemonic is also valid when the > words are put into reverse order (not the entropy), where a given 12 or > 24-word mnemonic could be valid both in little endian and big endian > format. I've coined these "Palindromic Mnemonics", but perhaps more > user-friendly is "reversible mnemonics." > > Purpose: > A checksum-valid reversible mnemonic allows two separate vaults to be > connected to the same mnemonic string of words, where all a users must do > is enter the words in reverse order (the last word becomes first, second to > last becomes second, and so on) to access the secondary (reversed words) > vault. This utility could provide multiple use-cases, including related to > combinations with passphrases and plausible deniability, as well as > conveniences for those wishing to use a separate vault tied to the same > string of words. > > Security: > For any randomly generated 12-word mnemonic (128-bits of security) the > chances of it also being reversible are 1/16 (I believe), as a total of 4 > bit positions must be identical (4 bits from the normal mnemonic and > another 4 bits from the reversed string must match). For a 24-word > mnemonic, those values increase to 8 bits which need to match 8 bits from > the reversed string, leading to about 1 in every 256 mnemonics also being > reversible. While the message space of valid reversible mnemonics should be > 2^124 for 12 words, that search must still be conducted over a field of 2^128, > as the hash-derived checksum values otherwise prevent a way to > deterministically find valid reversible mnemonics without first going > through invalid reversible ones to check. I think others should chime in on > whether they believe there is any security loss, in terms of entropy bits > (assuming the initial 128 bits were generated securely). I estimate at most > it would be 4-bits of loss for a 12-word mnemonic, but only if an attacker > had a way to search only the space of valid reversible mnemonics (2**124) > which I don't think is feasible (could be wrong?). There could also be > errors in my above assumptions, this is a work in progress and sharing it > here to solicit initial feedback/interest. > > I've already written the code that can be used for testing (on GitHub user > @hatgit), and when run from terminal/command prompt it is pretty fast to > find a valid reversible mnemonics, whereas on IDLE in Python on a 32-bit > and 64-bit machine it could take a few seconds for 12 words and sometimes > 10 minutes to find a valid 24-word reversible mnemonic. > Example 12 words reversible (with valid checksum each way): > > limit exact seven clarify utility road image fresh leg cabbage hint canoe > > And Reversed: > > canoe hint cabbage leg fresh image road utility clarify seven exact limit > > > Example 24 reversible: > > favorite uncover sugar wealth army shift goose fury market toe message > remain direct arrow duck afraid enroll salt knife school duck sunny grunt > argue > > And reversed: > > argue grunt sunny duck school knife salt enroll afraid duck arrow direct > remain message toe market fury goose shift army wealth sugar uncover > favorite > > > My two questions 1) are how useful could this be for > you/users/devs/service providers etc.. and 2) is any security loss > occurring and whether it is negligible or not? > > Best regards, > > Steven Hatzakis > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >