* [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout @ 2012-01-15 22:09 Amir Taaki 2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Amir Taaki @ 2012-01-15 22:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development How is this not the most important world issue right now? EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage. Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-15 22:09 [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout Amir Taaki @ 2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik 2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Jeff Garzik @ 2012-01-15 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Amir Taaki; +Cc: bitcoin-development On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote: > How is this not the most important world issue right now? > > EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage. > > Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy. There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate this in the long run. -- Jeff Garzik exMULTI, Inc. jgarzik@exmulti•com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik @ 2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr 2012-01-16 7:35 ` Wladimir 2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki 2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson 2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Luke-Jr @ 2012-01-16 1:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development On Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:37:05 PM Jeff Garzik wrote: > There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would > rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate > this in the long run. I agree (with the conclusion). There are much more important and urgent problems than SOPA/PIPA that we'd need to constantly 'blackout' if we did it over every single problem. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr @ 2012-01-16 7:35 ` Wladimir 2012-01-16 8:12 ` Gregory Maxwell 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Wladimir @ 2012-01-16 7:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Luke-Jr; +Cc: bitcoin-development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1036 bytes --] Internet censorship *is* a threat to bitcoin, if we don't stand up for our rights now we deserve anything that is coming. There will be no "long run". On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:19 AM, Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr•org> wrote: > On Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:37:05 PM Jeff Garzik wrote: > > There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would > > rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate > > this in the long run. > > I agree (with the conclusion). There are much more important and urgent > problems than SOPA/PIPA that we'd need to constantly 'blackout' if we did > it > over every single problem. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > RSA(R) Conference 2012 > Mar 27 - Feb 2 > Save $400 by Jan. 27 > Register now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev2 > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1695 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-16 7:35 ` Wladimir @ 2012-01-16 8:12 ` Gregory Maxwell 2012-01-16 8:29 ` Wladimir 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2012-01-16 8:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Wladimir; +Cc: bitcoin-development On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail•com> wrote: > Internet censorship *is* a threat to bitcoin, if we don't stand up for our > rights now we deserve anything that is coming. There will be no "long run". Very few people actually care if they can load that particular URL ... if you were talking about the forums it might matter more. It also might make sense to run some informative popup, except people are going to be seeing them all over the internet on higher traffic sites. E.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_SOPA_Blackout_Design_%28derivative_A%29.png ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-16 8:12 ` Gregory Maxwell @ 2012-01-16 8:29 ` Wladimir 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Wladimir @ 2012-01-16 8:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gregory Maxwell; +Cc: bitcoin-development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 698 bytes --] On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote: > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail•com> wrote: > > Internet censorship *is* a threat to bitcoin, if we don't stand up for > our > > rights now we deserve anything that is coming. There will be no "long > run". > > Very few people actually care if they can load that particular URL ... > if you were talking about the forums it might matter more. It also > might make sense to run some informative popup, except people are > going to be seeing them all over the internet on higher traffic sites. > Agreed, a notice would be enough. No need to make the entire site inaccessible either. Wladimir [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1054 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik 2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr @ 2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki 2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner 2012-01-17 9:19 ` Vladimir Marchenko 2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson 2 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Amir Taaki @ 2012-01-17 0:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development Bunk argument. This is an issue that affects bitcoin directly. Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action The Wikipedia community decided on a full and global blackout. Bitcoin should do the same in unison with the rest of the web- sites like Reddit, 4chan and Wikipedia. It's funny / almost comical how you consign this to being just another issue or case of moral alarm. Sad. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@exmulti•com> To: Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> Cc: "bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net" <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote: > How is this not the most important world issue right now? > > EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage. > > Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy. There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate this in the long run. -- Jeff Garzik exMULTI, Inc. jgarzik@exmulti•com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki @ 2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner 2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush 2012-01-17 2:25 ` Luke-Jr 2012-01-17 9:19 ` Vladimir Marchenko 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Alan Reiner @ 2012-01-17 0:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2921 bytes --] You guys are representing both extremes of the issue. In response to Jeff and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is /just any other poltical issue/. It strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is about. Barring Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any legislation could be more relevant to Bitcoin and the community around it. On the other hand, Bitcoin is still a non-entity, and shouldn't get in the business of making statements. A central voice for Bitcoin gives the impression that it is actually centralized, and one that has opinions. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if some, heavily-invested Bitcoin users were of the opinion that SOPA/PIPA/whatever could be a huge profit for themselves: once SOPA kicks in and businesses around the world start getting cut off for legit or illegitimate purposes, a lot of them could potentially switch to Bitcoin to keep their business going. That could be a huge boon for Bitcoin. You may not agree it's worth the tradeoff, but people are selfish and may not actually understand or even care about SOPA legislation itself. I think it's /not inappropriate/ for something to be mentioned on the website about Bitcoin's philosophy being threatened by SOPA, but I agree Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands. Users could be reminded that SOPA affects yet another thing they care about, but it might be better to avoid it altogether. If any response is made, it should be a very light one. -Alan On 01/16/2012 07:30 PM, Amir Taaki wrote: > Bunk argument. This is an issue that affects bitcoin directly. > > Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action > > The Wikipedia community decided on a full and global blackout. Bitcoin should do the same in unison with the rest of the web- sites like Reddit, 4chan and Wikipedia. > > It's funny / almost comical how you consign this to being just another issue or case of moral alarm. Sad. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Garzik<jgarzik@exmulti•com> > To: Amir Taaki<zgenjix@yahoo•com> > Cc: "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net"<bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout > > On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki<zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote: >> How is this not the most important world issue right now? >> >> EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage. >> >> Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy. > > There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would > rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate > this in the long run. > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4106 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner @ 2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush 2012-01-17 2:35 ` Cameron Garnham 2012-01-17 2:25 ` Luke-Jr 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: slush @ 2012-01-17 0:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alan Reiner; +Cc: bitcoin-development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4027 bytes --] > I agree Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands. I agree on this. Please don't turn Bitcoin project/homepage into some political agitation. Not everybody care about political attitude of main project developers. slush On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail•com> wrote: > ** > You guys are representing both extremes of the issue. In response to Jeff > and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is *just any other poltical issue*. It > strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is about. Barring > Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any legislation could be more > relevant to Bitcoin and the community around it. > > On the other hand, Bitcoin is still a non-entity, and shouldn't get in the > business of making statements. A central voice for Bitcoin gives the > impression that it is actually centralized, and one that has opinions. > Plus I wouldn't be surprised if some, heavily-invested Bitcoin users were > of the opinion that SOPA/PIPA/whatever could be a huge profit for > themselves: once SOPA kicks in and businesses around the world start > getting cut off for legit or illegitimate purposes, a lot of them could > potentially switch to Bitcoin to keep their business going. That could be > a huge boon for Bitcoin. You may not agree it's worth the tradeoff, but > people are selfish and may not actually understand or even care about SOPA > legislation itself. > > I think it's *not inappropriate* for something to be mentioned on the > website about Bitcoin's philosophy being threatened by SOPA, but I agree > Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands. Users could be > reminded that SOPA affects yet another thing they care about, but it might > be better to avoid it altogether. If any response is made, it should be a > very light one. > > -Alan > > > > On 01/16/2012 07:30 PM, Amir Taaki wrote: > > Bunk argument. This is an issue that affects bitcoin directly. > > Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action > > The Wikipedia community decided on a full and global blackout. Bitcoin should do the same in unison with the rest of the web- sites like Reddit, 4chan and Wikipedia. > > It's funny / almost comical how you consign this to being just another issue or case of moral alarm. Sad. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@exmulti•com> <jgarzik@exmulti•com> > To: Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> <zgenjix@yahoo•com> > Cc: "bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net" <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout > > On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> <zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote: > > How is this not the most important world issue right now? > > EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage. > > Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy. > > There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would > rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate > this in the long run. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5457 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush @ 2012-01-17 2:35 ` Cameron Garnham 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Cameron Garnham @ 2012-01-17 2:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5330 bytes --] I think that bitcoin.org should remain apolitical. However maybe it would be good if the blackout to take effect on bitcointalk.org if theymos and Sirius believes it is appropriate. Bitcoin.org should provide bitcoin. On 17/01/2012 11:59 AM, slush wrote: > > I agree Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands. > > I agree on this. Please don't turn Bitcoin project/homepage into some > political agitation. Not everybody care about political attitude of > main project developers. > > slush > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail•com > <mailto:etotheipi@gmail•com>> wrote: > > You guys are representing both extremes of the issue. In response > to Jeff and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is /just any other > poltical issue/. It strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is > about. Barring Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any > legislation could be more relevant to Bitcoin and the community > around it. > > On the other hand, Bitcoin is still a non-entity, and shouldn't > get in the business of making statements. A central voice for > Bitcoin gives the impression that it is actually centralized, and > one that has opinions. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if some, > heavily-invested Bitcoin users were of the opinion that > SOPA/PIPA/whatever could be a huge profit for themselves: once > SOPA kicks in and businesses around the world start getting cut > off for legit or illegitimate purposes, a lot of them could > potentially switch to Bitcoin to keep their business going. That > could be a huge boon for Bitcoin. You may not agree it's worth > the tradeoff, but people are selfish and may not actually > understand or even care about SOPA legislation itself. > > I think it's /not inappropriate/ for something to be mentioned on > the website about Bitcoin's philosophy being threatened by SOPA, > but I agree Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political > stands. Users could be reminded that SOPA affects yet another > thing they care about, but it might be better to avoid it > altogether. If any response is made, it should be a very light one. > > -Alan > > > > On 01/16/2012 07:30 PM, Amir Taaki wrote: >> Bunk argument. This is an issue that affects bitcoin directly. >> >> Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action >> >> The Wikipedia community decided on a full and global blackout. Bitcoin should do the same in unison with the rest of the web- sites like Reddit, 4chan and Wikipedia. >> >> It's funny / almost comical how you consign this to being just another issue or case of moral alarm. Sad. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jeff Garzik<jgarzik@exmulti•com> <mailto:jgarzik@exmulti•com> >> To: Amir Taaki<zgenjix@yahoo•com> <mailto:zgenjix@yahoo•com> >> Cc:"bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net" <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> >> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development]bitcoin.org <http://bitcoin.org> SOPA/PIPA blackout >> >> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki<zgenjix@yahoo•com> <mailto:zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote: >>> How is this not the most important world issue right now? >>> >>> EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage. >>> >>> Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy. >> There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would >> rather thatbitcoin.org <http://bitcoin.org> stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate >> this in the long run. >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft > developers > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, > MVC3, > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net > <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d > > > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 26408 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner 2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush @ 2012-01-17 2:25 ` Luke-Jr 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Luke-Jr @ 2012-01-17 2:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development On Monday, January 16, 2012 7:46:39 PM Alan Reiner wrote: > In response to Jeff and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is /just any other > poltical issue/. It strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is about. Sorry, Bitcoin is not about the same thing to everyone. For me, Bitcoin is about one thing: providing a monetary system for the Tonal number system. Otherwise, it would be merely an interesting project I have no real concern with. To assume everyone has the same interests is a sure-fire way to prevent widescale adoption. If you want Bitcoin to succeed, don't try to impose a single purpose/"about" on everyone using it (which a "blackout" would do). > Barring Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any legislation > could be more relevant to Bitcoin and the community around it. Bitcoin is an innovative new currency. How is a bill on internet censorship (which is badly needed, even if not in the form of SOPA/PIPA) directly relevant? I don't think it is. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki 2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner @ 2012-01-17 9:19 ` Vladimir Marchenko 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Vladimir Marchenko @ 2012-01-17 9:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Amir Taaki; +Cc: bitcoin-development On 17 January 2012 00:30, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote: > ... > Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action > ... I would like to voice my support to Amir here. It is a solidarity gesture and from my point of view it would be great if bitcoin related websites join the Blackout. In my view it is almost like Internet's general strike, which is being enacted for a very good reason. To some degree, ignoring it and continuing business as usual is almost equivalent to being a strikebreaker. For whatever it worth, all websites where I have some degree of control will particpate in the blackout. Even where it means loss of revenue for one day (actually it is likely that ad revenues tomorrow would be easily twice the usual amount due to so many publishers shutting down their websites.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik 2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr 2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki @ 2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson 2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell 2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Kyle Henderson @ 2012-01-17 2:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 446 bytes --] On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@exmulti•com> wrote: > > There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would > rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate > this in the long run. > > Agreed :) For those that believe one particularly noisy country in the North America region with a policy called SOPA or PIPA directly affects Bitcoin - can you point out precisely where it does so? [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 829 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson @ 2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell 2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón 2012-01-17 9:25 ` Stefan Thomas 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2012-01-17 6:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kyle Henderson; +Cc: bitcoin-development On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Kyle Henderson <k@old•school.nz> wrote: > For those that believe one particularly noisy country in the North America > region with a policy called SOPA or PIPA directly affects Bitcoin - can you > point out precisely where it does so? In addition to the concerns about internet freedom and domain name system filtering which are against the interests of bitcoin users and the bitcoin system generally, SOPA contains new requirements for payment networks which may adversely impact Bitcoin services businesses and limit their ability to do business in the US and other places where similar legislation is adopted. There are many millions of potential Bitcoin users in the US, so US law matters for our ecosystem even though far from all Bitcoin users are in the US themselves. (21) PAYMENT NETWORK PROVIDER- (A) IN GENERAL- The term `payment network provider' means an entity that directly or indirectly provides the proprietary services, infrastructure, and software to effect or facilitate a debit, credit, or other payment transaction. [...] (i) PREVENTING AFFILIATION- A payment network provider shall take technically feasible and reasonable measures, as expeditiously as possible, but in any case within 5 days after being served with a copy of the order, or within such time as the court may order, designed to prevent, prohibit, or suspend its service from completing payment transactions involving customers located within the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and the payment account-- (I) which is used by the foreign infringing site, or portion thereof, that is subject to the order; and (II) through which the payment network provider would complete such payment transactions. If you really want to go for the more extreme interpretation, it's not hard to conclude that the Bitcoin system itself is a "payment network" by the definition under the act, and if so in theory the AG's office could— without due process— order miners and mining pools located in the US to, for example, not process transactions containing the well known addresses of targeted infringing sites (e.g. The Wikileaks donation address). Though I personally think this is far out. I also think that other people will covered the SOPA/PIPA awareness (e.g. Wikipedia is shutting down for 24 hours) more than we could possibly do with our own resources. But this attitude of it being someone elses problem? I think thats nonsense. We live in _one world_, one world which is getting smaller every day. The value of a network—or of a economy— comes from the number of potential connections it can make. One reason Bitcoin is good is because it deconstructs some of the old barriers and anything that risks imposing new ones is a threat to us all. So, don't participate because bitcoin.org's help would be so small as to be pointless— sure. But because it doesn't matter? hardly. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell @ 2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón 2012-01-17 9:04 ` Wladimir 2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr 2012-01-17 9:25 ` Stefan Thomas 1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Jorge Timón @ 2012-01-17 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: bitcoin-development It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a political organization for being against censorship. This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy. And as Gregory shows it clearly affects bitcoin directly. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón @ 2012-01-17 9:04 ` Wladimir 2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Wladimir @ 2012-01-17 9:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jorge Timón; +Cc: bitcoin-development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2028 bytes --] This is not just "a political issue". The internet as we know it is at stake, and bitcoin depends directly on a working, single, globally connected internet (at least for now, until mesh networking goes anywhere...). *Everyone* using bitcoin has the interest in keeping the internet working and un-balkanized. That's not a political opinion, it's a fact. The laws could also criminalize both the users and developers, if they regard bitcoin as a "payment network". And countries aren't too fussy about extradition to the US (see the case of Richard O'Dwyer). Though I agree that SOPA and PIPA are just manifestations of a brand of censorship that is spreading all over the world. Stopping these laws won't solve the underlying issue either. Other countries will keep pushing for them, and we can't blank out the page for every country. However, that does not make the issue "political and thus meaningless". Also: "being too small to matter" is never a good argument to not do something. It is fear paralysis. Wladimir 2012/1/17 Jorge Timón <timon.elviejo@gmail•com> > It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a > political organization for being against censorship. > This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the > basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy. > And as Gregory shows it clearly affects bitcoin directly. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2782 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón 2012-01-17 9:04 ` Wladimir @ 2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr 2012-01-17 16:16 ` James Burkle 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Luke-Jr @ 2012-01-17 16:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:42:51 AM Jorge Timón wrote: > It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a > political organization for being against censorship. > This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the > basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy. Censorship is, in principle, good. Free speech and democracy are, in princple, evil. Idolizing Liberty is also evil. Your backward morals are worse than a political issue. How about taking a few minutes to read this article by Bishop Sanborn? ;) http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=13&catname=7 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr @ 2012-01-17 16:16 ` James Burkle 2012-01-17 16:30 ` solar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: James Burkle @ 2012-01-17 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Luke-Jr; +Cc: bitcoin-development I don't think this is the right mailing list for discussion of this Blackout topic. I know this is definitely not the right mailing list for proselytizing. On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr•org> wrote: > On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:42:51 AM Jorge Timón wrote: >> It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a >> political organization for being against censorship. >> This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the >> basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy. > > Censorship is, in principle, good. Free speech and democracy are, in princple, > evil. Idolizing Liberty is also evil. Your backward morals are worse than a > political issue. > > How about taking a few minutes to read this article by Bishop Sanborn? ;) > http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=13&catname=7 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 16:16 ` James Burkle @ 2012-01-17 16:30 ` solar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: solar @ 2012-01-17 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: James Burkle; +Cc: bitcoin-development Dear bitcoin-development, One of the original reasons for the creation of this mailing list was because the bitcoin.org forum was filled with this type of noise and this list was to provide a medium for discussion of development topics. This entire SOPA thing is off topic for this list. Might as well argue about abortion, because you can pay an abortion doctor with bitcoins.. maybe. Many of us subscribe because we're interested in the technical discussions.. not internet trolling. Several people have already expressed that they don't care about this, so please discuss it somewhere more appropriate for this topic, like the bitcointalk forums. Thanks, Laszlo On Jan 17, 2012, at 4:16 PM, James Burkle wrote: > I don't think this is the right mailing list for discussion of this > Blackout topic. I know this is definitely not the right mailing list > for proselytizing. > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr•org> wrote: >> On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:42:51 AM Jorge Timón wrote: >>> It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a >>> political organization for being against censorship. >>> This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the >>> basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy. >> >> Censorship is, in principle, good. Free speech and democracy are, in princple, >> evil. Idolizing Liberty is also evil. Your backward morals are worse than a >> political issue. >> >> How about taking a few minutes to read this article by Bishop Sanborn? ;) >> http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=13&catname=7 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! >> The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers >> is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, >> Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout 2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell 2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón @ 2012-01-17 9:25 ` Stefan Thomas 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Stefan Thomas @ 2012-01-17 9:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development I'm firmly against a *blackout* - it would harm users' trust in Bitcoin since people looking to download the client or to get information about Bitcoin may end up in the wrong place. I constantly have to delete YouTube spam advertising this or that "miracle GPU miner" or "secure Bitcoin client", which of course are all just the same trojan. As for making a statement or putting up a banner - that's ok with me. On 1/17/2012 7:15 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Kyle Henderson<k@old•school.nz> wrote: >> For those that believe one particularly noisy country in the North America >> region with a policy called SOPA or PIPA directly affects Bitcoin - can you >> point out precisely where it does so? > In addition to the concerns about internet freedom and domain name > system filtering which are against the interests of bitcoin users and > the bitcoin system generally, SOPA contains new requirements for > payment networks which may adversely impact Bitcoin services > businesses and limit their ability to do business in the US and other > places where similar legislation is adopted. There are many millions > of potential Bitcoin users in the US, so US law matters for our > ecosystem even though far from all Bitcoin users are in the US > themselves. > > (21) PAYMENT NETWORK PROVIDER- > (A) IN GENERAL- The term `payment network provider' means > an entity that directly or indirectly provides the proprietary > services, infrastructure, and software to effect or facilitate a > debit, credit, or other payment transaction. > [...] > (i) PREVENTING AFFILIATION- A payment network provider > shall take technically feasible and reasonable measures, as > expeditiously as possible, but in any case within 5 days after being > served with a copy of the order, or within such time as the court may > order, designed to prevent, prohibit, or suspend its service from > completing payment transactions involving customers located within the > United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and > the payment account-- > (I) which is used by the foreign infringing site, > or portion thereof, that is subject to the order; and > (II) through which the payment network provider > would complete such payment transactions. > > If you really want to go for the more extreme interpretation, it's not > hard to conclude that the Bitcoin system itself is a "payment network" > by the definition under the act, and if so in theory the AG's office > could— without due process— order miners and mining pools located in > the US to, for example, not process transactions containing the well > known addresses of targeted infringing sites (e.g. The Wikileaks > donation address). Though I personally think this is far out. > > I also think that other people will covered the SOPA/PIPA awareness > (e.g. Wikipedia is shutting down for 24 hours) more than we could > possibly do with our own resources. > > But this attitude of it being someone elses problem? I think thats > nonsense. We live in _one world_, one world which is getting smaller > every day. The value of a network—or of a economy— comes from the > number of potential connections it can make. One reason Bitcoin is > good is because it deconstructs some of the old barriers and anything > that risks imposing new ones is a threat to us all. > > So, don't participate because bitcoin.org's help would be so small as > to be pointless— sure. But because it doesn't matter? hardly. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout @ 2012-01-17 19:03 Peter Vessenes 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Peter Vessenes @ 2012-01-17 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-development [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 761 bytes --] It seems to me that the internet as a whole has got this one covered. I say this as someone who thinks that BitCoin needs to choose its battles and craft its reputation extremely carefully; this isn't the most important fight for BitCoin, nor the most deadly. I do think SOPA and PIPA could impact bitcoin, what if, for instance, copyrighted material made its way into the blockchain? Already the DMCA would make it hard for someone publishing blocks online to do anything but cease under a DMCA request. SOPA, at least, would go farther and allow the US to cut all access to 'offending' sites elsewhere in the world. At any rate, I don't think these bills are 'aimed at' BitCoin, and the companies with the most stake are taking the threat quite seriously. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 863 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2012-01-17 19:32 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2012-01-15 22:09 [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout Amir Taaki 2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik 2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr 2012-01-16 7:35 ` Wladimir 2012-01-16 8:12 ` Gregory Maxwell 2012-01-16 8:29 ` Wladimir 2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki 2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner 2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush 2012-01-17 2:35 ` Cameron Garnham 2012-01-17 2:25 ` Luke-Jr 2012-01-17 9:19 ` Vladimir Marchenko 2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson 2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell 2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón 2012-01-17 9:04 ` Wladimir 2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr 2012-01-17 16:16 ` James Burkle 2012-01-17 16:30 ` solar 2012-01-17 9:25 ` Stefan Thomas 2012-01-17 19:03 Peter Vessenes
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox
