Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST Datastore for Energy Efficient Mining

From: Lonero Foundation <loneroassociation@gmail•com>
To: Eric Martindale <eric@ericmartindale•com>
Cc: Devrandom <c1.devrandom@niftybox•net>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST Datastore for Energy Efficient Mining
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 22:58:45 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CA+YkXXyb+ajOY237Q==NOWqOnbMARZ=54_GF62rMMo2XBk-U-A@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CA+YkXXyMUQtdSvjuMPQO71LpPb8qFdy-LTSrA8FEbeWMbPWa4w@mail.gmail.com>

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Actually disregard my last email, I realize you were replying to somebody
else instead of me. Please for proposals not related to my BIP, such as a
form of "luck chance lottery", post in a different discussion thread as to
not draw confusion.

Best regards, Andrew

On Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 10:51 PM Lonero Foundation <
loneroassociation@gmail•com> wrote:

> I also want to emphasize that Bitcoin's energy consumption is growing at
> an exponential rate because of complexity. That in itself is a good thing
> security-wise. However, there are limitations to the cryptography it is
> using and the efficiency it is going about mining the way it is currently
> done.
>
> Bitcoin can have this massive carbon footprint all become meaningless if
> there is better math. So far we already outpaced many of the the more
> traditional forms of cryptographic protocols Bitcoin is currently using,
> including both for its mining and key validation. The hardware specificness
> is also too limited.
>
> My proposal doesn't redesign the way Bitcoin is structured or its system,
> rather it focuses on improvement or replacing what is outdated, and making
> it more resistant to centralization, forced monopolization or an attack.
>
> On Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 10:32 PM Lonero Foundation <
> loneroassociation@gmail•com> wrote:
>
>> Hi, just to clarify this isn't a trade-off on security. Infact, my
>> proposal actually increases the level of security that Bitcoin currently
>> has. There is both an efficiency and cryptography aspect to this proposal.
>> I talked about the higher levels of security a bit in my BIP, and have
>> talked to a few about energy consumption.
>>
>> Outside of consumption of energy however, is the fact that BTC can be
>> more adaptable towards a major range of hardware without disenfranchising
>> others or other major trade-offs. There is no need for BTC to specifically
>> be tailored towards ASICs if the same level of proof of work can be done
>> from other hardware sources at similar costs. The technology and level of
>> cryptography between now and when Satoshi started BTC development 14 years
>> ago is also fastly different. BTC went from you can mine lots of Bitcoin by
>> literally downloading the whitepaper, to USB miners, to ASICs to now whole
>> entire mining centers.
>>
>> This is because of complexity, but that complexity in the near future can
>> be entirely meaningless if it is vulnerable to some of the things many
>> cryptography experts are worried about. Keep in mind this is in draft mode,
>> but over time as further implementation is done, alot of the community
>> including yourself might start being impressed by the more and more
>> tangible results.
>>
>> Best regards, Andrew
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2021, 10:02 PM Eric Martindale <eric@ericmartindale•com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bitcoin's security is derived from the energy consumption of mining, so
>>> reducing the overall expenditure would be an objective decrease in
>>> resilience.  As a miner, your efficiency at converting energy into
>>> hashpower is the driving factor in your profitability, so this and any
>>> other future attempts to decrease the cost of attacking Bitcoin receives a
>>> hard NACK from me.
>>>
>>> If you're concerned about missing out on the subsidy or fee revenue,
>>> grab any number of the sub-500mSAT USB miners and get access to cheap power.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Eric Martindale, relentless maker.
>>> Founder & CEO, Fabric, Inc. <https://fabric.fm>
>>> +1 (919) 374-2020
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 9:41 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via
>>> bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good Afternoon,
>>>>
>>>> It is obvious that something needs to be done to curtail the current
>>>> cost of mining in kWh per block. I understand proposals are rejected
>>>> because it is considered censorship and Bitcoin has a consensus to allow
>>>> anyone to mine but, since mining requires specific hardware and energy
>>>> requirements it is already a form of censorship where most on the planet
>>>> except for the top 6% I am guessing here, cannot afford to mine. Without
>>>> affecting the current algorithm, I have previously begun to explore the
>>>> process by which mining can be turned into a lottery with only authorized
>>>> payto addresses able to mine valid blocks, since transaction fees and block
>>>> rewards exist to pay the miner. It would be better even if the algorithms
>>>> are improved if there are some ways that only a subset of miners can
>>>> produce valid blocks for any given period, say for 12 months with four
>>>> groups starting three months apart to transition, and maybe limit mining to
>>>> 50 people per continent to produce valid blocks at any one time. Possibly
>>>> this requires a consortium to oversee the lottery but it is something
>>>> Bitcoin can handle themselves, and would do better to handle than to wait
>>>> for government intervention as we have seen previously in China where power
>>>> was too cheap Bitcoin was banned entirely.
>>>>
>>>> KING JAMES HRMH
>>>> Great British Empire
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> The Australian
>>>> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
>>>> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
>>>> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
>>>> Wills
>>>>
>>>> et al.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Willtech
>>>> www.willtech.com.au
>>>> www.go-overt.com
>>>> and other projects
>>>>
>>>> earn.com/willtech
>>>> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> m. 0487135719
>>>> f. +61261470192
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this
>>>> email if misdelivered.
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists•linuxfoundation.org> on
>>>> behalf of Lonero Foundation via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, 6 March 2021 3:16 AM
>>>> *To:* Devrandom <c1.devrandom@niftybox•net>
>>>> *Cc:* Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST
>>>> Datastore for Energy Efficient Mining
>>>>
>>>> Also in regards to my other email, I forgot to iterate that my
>>>> cryptography proposal helps behind the efficiency category but also tackles
>>>> problems such as NP-Completeness or Halting which is something the BTC
>>>> network could be vulnerable to in the future. For sake of simplicity, I do
>>>> want to do this BIP because it tackles lots of the issues in regards to
>>>> this manner and can provide useful insight to the community. If things such
>>>> as bigger block height have been proposed as hard forks, I feel at the very
>>>> least an upgrade regarding the hashing algorithm and cryptography does at
>>>> least warrant some discussion. Anyways I hope I can send you my BIP, just
>>>> let me know on the preferred format?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards, Andrew
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:12 AM Lonero Foundation <
>>>> loneroassociation@gmail•com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in regards to
>>>> renewables or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get the
>>>> most out of your hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrariness
>>>> of it, but do want to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki
>>>> format on GitHub and just attach it as my proposal?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards, Andrew
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devrandom <c1.devrandom@niftybox•net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ryan and Andrew,
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/
>>>>     "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work"
>>>>     on | 04 Aug 2015
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining
>>>> market will tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward.  It does
>>>> not prove that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost.
>>>>
>>>> Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities and
>>>> that we should move to other resources.  I would argue that the negative
>>>> externalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so the
>>>> point is likely moot.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>
>>>

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