From: Daniel Krawisz <daniel.krawisz@thingobjectentity•net>
To: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Coinbase reallocation to discourage Finney attacks
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 15:41:50 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CA+nkog349i3VQMUW_JmxX29-tOvzprtT6vcjFayNJgRt0vSCtg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CANEZrP0fUhiFeH4A1Y9sLCORpggJs3dxHz+exgpKaLQe9rgFeA@mail.gmail.com>
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The memory pool is just talk. There is no expectation that the memory pool
has to satisfy some standard as to what will eventually exist in the block
chain, and there are any number of ways that people could communicate
transactions to one another without putting them in the memory pool. The
memory pool can't be treated like a contract because there is no
cryptography to enforce it--there is no contract until the transactions
appear in the block chain, inherently.
Mike Hearn's proposal is nonsense because it requires miners to develop a
concensus on which blocks in the block chain are dishonest. There is no way
to prove cryptographically that a block is dishonest because the block
chain itself is the concensus system--before there is concensus, there is
no concept of dishonesty, at least as far as double-spending goes. In order
to decide that a block is dishonest and reallocate the coinbase, a prior
consensus mechanism would be required. Of course, such a consensus
mechanism would also be subject to attacks just like the block chain.
Maxwell's proposal is very good. One only trusts the oscar not to double
spend, which is perfectly reasonable if oscar is a well-known service.
Normal everyday wallets for immediate payments would simply require a
little more infrastructure.
Daniel Krawisz
On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:
> What you're talking about is just disagreement about the content of
>> the memory pool
>>
>
> That's the same thing. Whilst you're mining your double spend tx, it's in
> your mempool but you don't broadcast it as per normal. Then when you find
> the block you broadcast it to override everyone elses mempool. So yours and
> theirs were inconsistent.
>
> The only slight way BitUndo differs is, they provide it as a service, and
> I don't know if they inform you when they found a block (probably not), so
> you have to do the purchase and then hope BitUndo finds the next block.
> Otherwise the purchase clears. But they could certainly add a
> pre-notification before they broadcast to get back to the exact scheme
> originally described, they have everything else in place.
>
>
>> Oscar himself can be implemented as a majority M parties to further
>> increase confidence
>
>
> This just brings us back to square one. Who are these parties and what if
> I pay them to be corrupt? What if they offer to be corrupt as a service?
>
> Let's say I succeed in finding some parties who are incorruptible no
> matter how large of a percentage I offer them. At this point, why bother
> with miners at all? Why pay for double spend protection twice, once to a
> group of Oscar's who are trustworthy and once to a group of miners who are
> not?
>
> The point of the broadcast network and mining is so there can be lots of
> Oscar's and I don't have to know who they are or sign up with them or put
> any effort into evaluating their reputation.
>
>
>> value retail transactions— the fact that any cheating by oscar is
>> cryptographically provable (just show them the double signatures)
>> maybe be strong enough alone.
>>
>
> But as you point out, cheating my GHash.io did not result in any obvious
> negative consequence to them, despite that preventing double spending is
> their sole task. Why would Oscar be different to GHash.io?
>
> Trying to solve the problem of dishonest miners is effectively trying to
> solve the "automatically find trusted third parties" problem at scale.
>
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2014-04-23 21:13 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 90+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2014-04-23 7:55 Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 9:57 ` Andy Parkins
2014-04-23 11:07 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 11:39 ` Andy Parkins
2014-04-23 11:45 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 13:21 ` Andy Parkins
2014-04-23 13:31 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 9:21 ` Andy Parkins
2014-04-23 12:43 ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-23 12:51 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 14:52 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 15:07 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 17:19 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 17:47 ` Gavin Andresen
2014-04-23 17:49 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 17:57 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 18:04 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 18:15 ` Peter Todd
2014-04-23 18:20 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 18:37 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 18:49 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-23 19:01 ` Drak
2014-04-23 18:58 ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-23 15:04 ` Alex Mizrahi
2014-04-23 15:09 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 15:38 ` Alex Mizrahi
2014-04-23 16:04 ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-23 16:19 ` Chris Pacia
2014-04-23 16:21 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 16:33 ` Kevin
2014-04-24 11:22 ` Jorge Timón
2014-04-24 11:43 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 13:57 ` Jorge Timón
2014-04-24 14:28 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 15:37 ` Jorge Timón
2014-04-24 17:07 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-25 4:31 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-25 10:17 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-25 13:19 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-25 15:28 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-26 12:15 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-27 1:42 ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-27 12:53 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-27 14:31 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-27 23:10 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-28 21:41 ` Adam Back
2014-04-29 14:13 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-29 14:21 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-29 14:26 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-30 13:12 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-30 13:55 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-30 14:31 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-29 19:29 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-04-30 13:00 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-30 17:06 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-04-30 17:13 ` Jameson Lopp
2014-04-30 14:08 ` Gareth Williams
2014-04-23 15:28 ` Peter Todd
2014-04-23 15:34 ` Kevin
2014-04-23 15:41 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 15:55 ` Peter Todd
2014-04-23 18:57 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 19:19 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 19:47 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 19:59 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 20:24 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 20:37 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 20:44 ` Adam Ritter
2014-04-23 20:51 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 15:13 ` Sergio Lerner
2014-04-24 15:34 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 20:53 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 21:23 ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-23 21:39 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 22:26 ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-24 0:55 ` Tom Harding
[not found] ` <CAKuKjyWDniyP503XSw8=tK9XQW-T58j+VD6ajXCxz=HihN93mQ@mail.gmail.com>
2014-04-24 14:52 ` [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: " Adam Ritter
2014-04-23 20:41 ` Daniel Krawisz [this message]
2014-04-23 22:06 ` [Bitcoin-development] " Alex Mizrahi
2014-04-24 7:58 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 8:19 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-24 8:39 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 9:25 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-24 9:56 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 13:44 ` Peter Todd
2014-04-24 14:09 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-24 14:47 ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-24 15:03 ` Peter Todd
2014-04-24 16:05 ` Christophe Biocca
2014-04-24 16:14 ` Mike Hearn
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