Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists

From: Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail•com>
To: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 12:23:53 -0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CA+vKqYckHe-8dfZw0ktxNvqQP4XYHHKUJwfwsYhvYyj3BfOCkg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAB3F3DsifkaCVE1xFvvn8+b-ixpq-NqmGd1vAS8V8niB9YLQsA@mail.gmail.com>

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> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?

yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of
Copay users have their backup on a language
other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new languages
in BIP39.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail•com> wrote:

> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Copay (and all its clones) use it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and
>>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a
>>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making
>>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all
>>> documentation is written in English.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな <kinoshitajona@gmail•com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is very sad.
>>>>>
>>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase
>>>>> (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter"
>>>>> for "amateur"...
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to
>>>>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  Now please,
>>>> let’s put the shoe on the other foot.
>>>>
>>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust
>>>> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this
>>>> down—then later, type it back in:
>>>>
>>>> すさん たんろ りゆう しもん ていおん しとう
>>>> とこや はやい おうさま ほくろ けちゃっふ たもつ
>>>>
>>>> (Approximate translation:  “Whatever would you do if Bitcoin had been
>>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?”)
>>>>
>>>> No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are probably talking
>>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life’s
>>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
>>>>
>>>> にあう しひょう にんすう ひえる かいこう いのる ねんし はあさん ひこく
>>>> とうく きもためし そなた こなこな にさんかたんそ ろんき めいあん みわく
>>>> へこむ すひょう おやゆひ ふせく けさき めいきょく こんまけ
>>>>
>>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own
>>>> hands?  No?  Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on
>>>> the inverse case.
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>>
>>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
>>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too.  Then think
>>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and
>>>> friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to
>>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their “mnemonics”.
>>>>
>>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called “mnemonics” at all.  A
>>>> “mnemonic” implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a wholly alien writing
>>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.  The
>>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for “amateur”, was not
>>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world’s most inefficient means
>>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>>
>>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is “日本語” an
>>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
>>>> users?  And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>>>>
>>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
>>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software:  Independent
>>>> implementations.  —  I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all
>>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*
>>>>
>>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
>>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>>>>
>>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism
>>>> of multi-language support.  I opened with a question about other languages,
>>>> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of “English only!”
>>>>
>>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
>>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted
>>>> to English.  I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
>>>> called “BIP 39” which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more
>>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>>>>
>>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for
>>>> use with that standard.
>>>>
>>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.
>>>> I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.  I
>>>> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually
>>>> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...  It should go
>>>> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> nullius@nym•zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
>>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
>>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
>>>> “‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’
>>>> No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.” — nullius
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Matías Alejo Garcia
>> @ematiu
>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>>
>
>

-- 
Matías Alejo Garcia
@ematiu
Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!

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