> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it? yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of Copay users have their backup on a language other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new languages in BIP39. On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders wrote: > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it? > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia > wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> >>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39? >>> >> >> >> Copay (and all its clones) use it. >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and >>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a >>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making >>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all >>> documentation is written in English. >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev < >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is very sad. >>>>> >>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words. >>>>> >>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase >>>>> (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" >>>>> for "amateur"... >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain >>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down. >>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for >>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion. >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to >>>>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please, >>>> let’s put the shoe on the other foot. >>>> >>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust >>>> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this >>>> down—then later, type it back in: >>>> >>>> すさん たんろ りゆう しもん ていおん しとう >>>> とこや はやい おうさま ほくろ けちゃっふ たもつ >>>> >>>> (Approximate translation: “Whatever would you do if Bitcoin had been >>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?”) >>>> >>>> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking >>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life’s >>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*: >>>> >>>> にあう しひょう にんすう ひえる かいこう いのる ねんし はあさん ひこく >>>> とうく きもためし そなた こなこな にさんかたんそ ろんき めいあん みわく >>>> へこむ すひょう おやゆひ ふせく けさき めいきょく こんまけ >>>> >>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own >>>> hands? No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on >>>> the inverse case. >>>> >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many >>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then think >>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and >>>> friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to >>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their “mnemonics”. >>>> >>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called “mnemonics” at all. A >>>> “mnemonic” implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholly alien writing >>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. The >>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for “amateur”, was not >>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the world’s most inefficient means >>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly. >>>> >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is “日本語” an >>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese >>>> users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages? >>>> >>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the >>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent >>>> implementations. — I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all >>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.* >>>> >>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, >>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question. >>>> >>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism >>>> of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other languages, >>>> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of “English only!” >>>> >>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever >>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted >>>> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard >>>> called “BIP 39” which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more >>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621). >>>> >>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for >>>> use with that standard. >>>> >>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing. >>>> I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I >>>> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually >>>> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should go >>>> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!) >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C >>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested: >>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE) >>>> “‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’ >>>> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.” — nullius >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Matías Alejo Garcia >> @ematiu >> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads! >> > > -- Matías Alejo Garcia @ematiu Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!